Maybe it's just the old fogey in me, but I see the two as mutually exclusive for the most part. Just my opinion, but the increase in F2P games can be compared to the overall drop in quality in games. But having said that, I think that I look at games a little differently than most as I look for immersion, deep crafting, economy driven by players as much as possible, ie; very feature rich games. I personally see that pay model as being the root cause for the destruction of what used to be creative game development. To me, when a game asks for a sub, they are making a commitment to the player that there will be expectations that have to be met by them, so they are asking for a commitment from the player. F2P games just appear to me as soulless landscapes that you can piece together.
Does that not sound a little bit "entitled" to you? How much of your expectations do they need to meet for $15/month?
No, I don't. But I think you have an agenda underneath all of your comments and some of us are smart enough to see it. If that is your lame attempt to say that I don't have a right to expect value for my money then you can label me whatever you want.
The ones that meet them will get my money. The ones that don't won't.
Funny thing is in TSW, CO (which i have LTS to) and EVE which is on a years sub, as well as the other games i sometimes play .. I generally hear people bitching about limits of f2p and having to pay a sub or even a dollar or two to get pref. status
Yet here so many want f2p and in other games all i see is ppl moaning at limits and spending less than a round of drinks to get unlocks, bank space etc
I haven't read through all the posts, but these are my reasons why I prefer P2P after 15 years playing mmorpgs...
-> Less Gold Sellers / Hackers / Exploiters
->Less gold selling spam in chat
->Players can't have unlimited mules
-> Players behave better
->New players can buy the stuff you sell because they have access to mail, Auction House, and no gold cap
For me 15$ a month is not much, so if it's a game I really like and want to play I prefer that the entire game is P2P. I don't want to compete with bots or chinese prisoners on the auction house.
Even if you don't care about the ingame economy in a F2P game you will se lots of odd stuff, players porting around from node to node, maximum level chars killing lvl 1 NPC's for the 1 copper for 50 hours straight etc.
There will always be gold sellers even in a P2P game but they have to behave less suspicous and compete more on even levels with the playerbase. A real player will usually know more about the game and can make money faster than a forced prisoner in china.
Paying 15 a month for an mmo 10 years ago was fine. But look what you get now. What does that money give you? The reason all these games have cash shops now is because of those f2p players that if like a game enough will spend more than your 15 a month. Its not the f2p players fault either. These so called AAA games coming out want as much money as they can get and thats why they offer the option. And believe it or not their are players that would rather go that way than pay a monthly. And every one of those games have something in the shop thats p2w. Its their biggest selling items and game companies now this. They don't care about you or mine's opinion about fair play. they just want the money.
In swotor you can bet they made a ton of money on those hotbars. I think from now on most mmo's will add f2p options because the money to be had is just to hard to turn down. The only ones that won't offer it are the niche games like Eve online. This is just a way to take in more money so get used to the idea. Star Trek online is the king of f2p. In fact your better off playing it this way. All the best item in the game are in the shop. A sub player gets nothing for subbing. Your just giving them extra money. Sure they limit a few things like slots but you can buy them. Their biggest selling item was the unlimited cash upgrade that wouuld unlock for the account. Wildstar and ESO will offer up f2p options. You can bet on it. They won't do it right away for fear of scaring off the hardcore i will only play a sub game crowd. This is a bussiness my friend. MMO companies need as much money as they can take in. Do you really think these companies are going turn away the growing number of players that want this option?
Originally posted by InfiniteStrife Originally posted by inemoszYou pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?You won't see restrictions on those titlesI do agree that most F2P games are P2W though
And you forgot the most important fact of them all:
F2P games are sub par mmos. And if ESO goes F2p im staying far away.
I'm not seeing a fact in here anywhere. Failed sub games that go F2P were sub par MMOs.
I think for an MMO the best option is probably B2P. Sub fees are just a way to rip people off sicne there is no reason at all to have one these days, the servers and bandwidth just aren't expensive enough to require it anymore. Just like back in the day when they moved from pay by the hour to pay by the month.
I haven't read through all the posts, but these are my reasons why I prefer P2P after 15 years playing mmorpgs...
-> Less Gold Sellers / Hackers / Exploiters
The biggest factors in those people (all three groups) joining is the game's popularity, not their business model.
->Less gold selling spam in chat
Again, gold sellers will go where the wallets are. More people playing means more wallets. This even brings up an important point; If all the F2P players are jobless free loading entitlement people... what have the gold sellers got for customers?
Yea, probably not to good to think about that for too long or the whole subscription only is the better choice argument falls apart.
->Players can't have unlimited mules
How is this an issue at all?
-> Players behave better
Absolutely untrue. The best communities in major MMOs right now are the older, moved to F2P MMOs. You have people that are there because they love the game, not because it's the latest thing.
The worst communities I've seen are the newest games between the time of release and when the MMO locusts have consumed all the content and flown on to the nest new thing.
->New players can buy the stuff you sell because they have access to mail, Auction House, and no gold cap
I thought F2P players were cheap. Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would rather buy something with fake in-game money from you, than creak open that 'poor person's' wallet and pay real money?
If you really have come across F2P players choosing to buy from the store over other players, it must mean F2P players have more money to spend than subscribers.
For me 15$ a month is not much, so if it's a game I really like and want to play I prefer that the entire game is P2P. I don't want to compete with bots or chinese prisoners on the auction house.
Welcome to MMOs, friend. I'll tell you right now, both bots and gold sellers (I'll avoid using the blatant racism you used, thanks) are not a symptom of F2P MMOs, they are a symptom of MMOs... especially the successful ones.
Even if you don't care about the ingame economy in a F2P game you will se lots of odd stuff, players porting around from node to node, maximum level chars killing lvl 1 NPC's for the 1 copper for 50 hours straight etc.
This doesn't even sound like you play MMOs. Are you really saying a high level would kill something over an over for 1 copper rather than go make 1 gold by killing one thing? I don't think you're being accurate or rational here.
There will always be gold sellers even in a P2P game but they have to behave less suspicous and compete more on even levels with the playerbase. A real player will usually know more about the game and can make money faster than a forced prisoner in china.
Again with the racism? I hate to break it to you, but gold sellers know exactly how to make the fastest in-game cash. And the method for getting rid of them isn't a subscription (since they can clear way more real money in gold sales than 20 subscriptions cost... That is how it works by the way.) It's systems in the game to embrace real currency to in-game currency exchanges and take it out of the hands of the gold sellers.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
As a gamer who wants access to a full game & will drop cash in exchange for full access, I would spend far more in a FTP game to get that acess.
So as a gamer who is willing to spend money, why would I want to spend more? Why not just pay a simple sub & be done with it? I don't want walls. I don't want adverts. I don't want to think about rl currency in the middle of the relaxation I enjoy with my hobby. Keep your rl out of my mmo.
This is why I only play sub games.
Now, I don't blame those FTP folks for wanting something for nothing. It's human nature for certain types of individuals. The problem I have is that they are trying to convince people that it's free. It's not. Someone is paying. That someone will not be me. I won't pay for your entertainment. I refuse to let you ride my coattails. I'll pay the company a premium far & above what they ask for now to keep the FTP crowd out. Why, you ask? Because at least they produce something. The FTP gamers in the FTP games are just extras in a B movie, yet they think that they are movie stars. They are furniture in the room, that's it. To the whales, your just a backdrop or a punching bag.
Final Thought: For anyone who says FTP games are better than sub games. No one is buying that. FTP is a crutch holding up games that should have been shutdown or gone bankrupt. Simple as that.
Most of the people I see that want it to go free to play are the same ones that aren't very interested in putting money into this game to begin with.
Part of the opposition for a sub game seems like people don't want invest so much when they don't even know what the money is going towards. I'd think by now roadmaps(like what SOE has been doing even with it's F2P games like PS2) would be nearly required to keep subscribers or potential subscribers to stay involved.
The tired old comment about F2P players being jobless free loaders has been proven false with industry financial metrics so completely, that the continuation seems to be a combination of trolling, overcompensation for people with low incomes that need to feel like they are lording something over perceived 'poor people' and no longer humorous wives tales about swimming 1 hour after meals, moons made of cheese, and the poor government welfare recipient, project dwelling F2P MMO player wasting all day instead of getting jobs.
F2P players spend more money. The MMOs have published this information. SWTOR is top of the heap of F2P 'free loaders' making them bank.
The question then moves on to; Why don't the subscription folks want to come up off their money to keep their favorite game afloat? Why do they unsubscribe three months after release and then get mad when the game they left high and dry go F2P? Do they feel betrayed even though they betrayed first?
When the triple A game no longer looks viable to the suits in game publishing, we'll know right where to look for the reason; Three month subscription MMO locusts, consuming content as fast as they can unsubscribing and moving on to their next favorite game until they unsubscribe that one, too.
Just the opinion of the owner of two imperial edition pre-orders just on the hopes that this game will become something eventually. (Putting my money where my mouth is.) So stop complaining about F2P and go buy some cash shop items, support the genre or it's gone.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I haven't read through all the posts, but these are my reasons why I prefer P2P after 15 years playing mmorpgs...
-> Less Gold Sellers / Hackers / Exploiters
->Less gold selling spam in chat
->Players can't have unlimited mules
-> Players behave better
->New players can buy the stuff you sell because they have access to mail, Auction House, and no gold cap
For me 15$ a month is not much, so if it's a game I really like and want to play I prefer that the entire game is P2P. I don't want to compete with bots or chinese prisoners on the auction house.
Even if you don't care about the ingame economy in a F2P game you will se lots of odd stuff, players porting around from node to node, maximum level chars killing lvl 1 NPC's for the 1 copper for 50 hours straight etc.
There will always be gold sellers even in a P2P game but they have to behave less suspicous and compete more on even levels with the playerbase. A real player will usually know more about the game and can make money faster than a forced prisoner in china.
You know, I just posted this earlier on this thread. It's kinda funny. If you've played every P2P games in the last 5 years like me, you'll know what I mean.
Originally posted by inemosz
It's already on people's mindset.
P2P deliver contents gradually, F2P don't and will die eventually.
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley As a gamer who wants access to a full game & will drop cash in exchange for full access, I would spend far more in a FTP game to get that acess.
So as a gamer who is willing to spend money, why would I want to spend more? Why not just pay a simple sub & be done with it? I don't want walls. I don't want adverts. I don't want to think about rl currency in the middle of the relaxation I enjoy with my hobby. Keep your rl out of my mmo.
This is why I only play sub games.
Now, I don't blame those FTP folks for wanting something for nothing. It's human nature for certain types of individuals. The problem I have is that they are trying to convince people that it's free. It's not. Someone is paying. That someone will not be me. I won't pay for your entertainment. I refuse to let you ride my coattails. I'll pay the company a premium far & above what they ask for now to keep the FTP crowd out. Why, you ask? Because at least they produce something. The FTP gamers in the FTP games are just extras in a B movie, yet they think that they are movie stars. They are furniture in the room, that's it. To the whales, your just a backdrop or a punching bag.
Final Thought: For anyone who says FTP games are better than sub games. No one is buying that. FTP is a crutch holding up games that should have been shutdown or gone bankrupt. Simple as that.
Exactly, those who promote F2P games are either those who are not willing to spend money in the longer run or are just following an agenda of the industry/stock exchange with their clever public relations.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
F2P games dont have a feel of game anymore to me, they have a feel playing a SLOT MACHINE.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
It's really hard for me to see a outcome where this game doesn't make a lot more money than is being invested into to it regardless of what payment model it finally ends up settling on. Between the PC and Console launches of this game it's going to make money. Will it make WoW kind of money is a completely different question and a lot more doubtful so I guess it depends on the expectations of the money behind the game. From my understanding however Zenimax self funds most of their projects. I don't know if the scale of ESO forced them to go to outside sources or not however.
And for my 2 cents I think B2P with bimonthly paid DLC packs and vanity items would fit ESO quite well but if they can get on a aggressive content release schedule from day 1 and keep to it a sub will be fine to.
Jyiiga, its out of players hands. TBH with what's in their roadmap & the greed shown to date I think the moment subs slip they will go f2p with optional sub.
going f2p is gonna happen, its themepark & they aren't going to generate content fast enough & that most often why subs dip around that familiar 2-3 month mark...
PS: people saying P2P has no gold sellers are deluded.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
Why should I play something which is called a game but reminds rather on a "slot machine" ?
Iam not going to support this direction, I have seen enough F2P games to build a opinion about such a payment methode and how are games actually developed just around a cash shop.
its the number of people. if the game F2P , you'll see ton of people while in P2P you have less people
just take a look at game like LOTRO. it got beat hard by WOW in P2P and it about to die. however when it changed to F2P. its draw in people, the game become live and then people spend on the cash shop and actualy bring the game back. many other game like LOL or DOTA let you see millions of player online and the cash shop is enough to make the company rich.
when playing MMO, i prefer seeing and interact with many people. otherwise , i'll just grab an x1 or PS4 to play single-multi player game.
Just so you know, most of the people you see running around in F2P games are bots, or ten year old kids who can't afford a subscription.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
Why should I play something which is called a game but reminds rather on a "slot machine" ?
Iam not going to support this direction, I have seen enough F2P games to build a opinion about such a payment methode and how are games actually developed just around a cash shop.
Exactly. Once the Old Republic went F2P, updates came to a dead standstill. They barely released free content. Any content you wanted you had to pay for in the form of mini expansions. And even then the content was limited. Mostly what they spent their time on was new cash shop costumes that people could buy to run around in. Like Hutt Slave outfits. -.-'
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
For real. People spend soooo much more in F2P games than subscription games. I don't get how players have not come to understand this. F2P is a recipe for either failure, or exploitation of gamers.
People seem to think GW2 has done a fair job with it, and while I admit they've done better than most, their updates are far fewer than they really should be (considering a Triple A mmo,) and neglect balance almost entirely in favor of... who knows what.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
Why should I play something which is called a game but reminds rather on a "slot machine" ?
Iam not going to support this direction, I have seen enough F2P games to build a opinion about such a payment methode and how are games actually developed just around a cash shop.
You're the one that told F2P players to put their money where their mouth is and support the game.
All I did, was put the same point to you, and it seems you're not willing to go the extra mile to support the game.
It's that simple.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Actually, OP, you don't have a choice in the matter and if the rumor of a lifetime subscription comes to pass, then it means their own analysts are predicting that the sub will drop.
Not to mention, as others have, that B2P games like TSW and GW2 don't have those kinds of restrictions... at least GW2 doesn't on content.. yet...
This game will drop its sub sooner or later, more likely sooner if you look at the media reviews. If you can't impress the media, you will have a hell of a harder time impressing the MMO-worn-out crowd (that was the targeted demographic) that has been playing MMOs for over 10 years.
WoW was never the norm, but the exception to the rule. It is the Windows of MMOs.
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley As a gamer who wants access to a full game & will drop cash in exchange for full access, I would spend far more in a FTP game to get that acess.
So as a gamer who is willing to spend money, why would I want to spend more? Why not just pay a simple sub & be done with it? I don't want walls. I don't want adverts. I don't want to think about rl currency in the middle of the relaxation I enjoy with my hobby. Keep your rl out of my mmo.
This is why I only play sub games.
Now, I don't blame those FTP folks for wanting something for nothing. It's human nature for certain types of individuals. The problem I have is that they are trying to convince people that it's free. It's not. Someone is paying. That someone will not be me. I won't pay for your entertainment. I refuse to let you ride my coattails. I'll pay the company a premium far & above what they ask for now to keep the FTP crowd out. Why, you ask? Because at least they produce something. The FTP gamers in the FTP games are just extras in a B movie, yet they think that they are movie stars. They are furniture in the room, that's it. To the whales, your just a backdrop or a punching bag.
Final Thought: For anyone who says FTP games are better than sub games. No one is buying that. FTP is a crutch holding up games that should have been shutdown or gone bankrupt. Simple as that.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
Because 15/mo for a POS that doesn't innovate is robbery.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
Why should I play something which is called a game but reminds rather on a "slot machine" ?
Iam not going to support this direction, I have seen enough F2P games to build a opinion about such a payment methode and how are games actually developed just around a cash shop.
Exactly. Once the Old Republic went F2P, updates came to a dead standstill. They barely released free content. Any content you wanted you had to pay for in the form of mini expansions. And even then the content was limited. Mostly what they spent their time on was new cash shop costumes that people could buy to run around in. Like Hutt Slave outfits. -.-'
Stop using the 1 crappy version of F2P thats came out in the last 10 years. There are countless examples of good F2P/Freeimum/B2P games: ArchAge, Rift, DDO, LOTR, TSW, CoX, Champions, AoC. GW 1 and 2, AoW
People seem to think GW2 has done a fair job with it, and while I admit they've done better than most, their updates are far fewer than they really should be (considering a Triple A mmo,) and neglect balance almost entirely in favor of... who knows what.
I would say that GW2 probably has the most updates of any MMO out there at the moment with their fortnightly living story updates. Of course these are only generally smaller updates and temporary for the most part but it's still more content being added than say in WoW with their once every 4-6 months content patches for which they charge you $60-$90 in sub fees (@ $15/month).
As for ESO. It's not a good enough game to be a sub game. B2P with a cash shop of vanity items or upgrades that you can also buy with in game money (inventory increases etc) would be the best way to go. Instead they have gone with sub fee + first day DLC (Imperial Edition) + cash shop. That is just plain greedy and the game will suffer because of it.
Lets not forget a very big difference between f2p and sub...
From that point on, the game will be updated sure, and bug fixed but... New armor, weapon models etc will solely be purchasable in the ingame store. You can forget about them adding items that look unique in game unless you fork over the extra cash. This is what kills it for me with ftp. It detracts from features you would get along with a sub. When will cheapskates realize the model encourages greed of the developers?
Give me a ftp game with a sub option, and offers the sub people ALL the things in the ingame shop ( even questable attainment is fine ) and then sure.
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
It's really hard for me to see a outcome where this game doesn't make a lot more money than is being invested into to it regardless of what payment model it finally ends up settling on. Between the PC and Console launches of this game it's going to make money. Will it make WoW kind of money is a completely different question and a lot more doubtful so I guess it depends on the expectations of the money behind the game. From my understanding however Zenimax self funds most of their projects. I don't know if the scale of ESO forced them to go to outside sources or not however.
And for my 2 cents I think B2P with bimonthly paid DLC packs and vanity items would fit ESO quite well but if they can get on a aggressive content release schedule from day 1 and keep to it a sub will be fine to.
Agree - especially about the B2P option + DLC; and if they don't have the DLC content currently they should reduce the core - which by all accounts is large - and make sure they do. It is a very honest approach as well. You don't know what you are getting for a sub and inevitably devs will talk up their plans. If the core game is 200 hours or 400 hours for $60 are you really going to get anything like 50 or 100 hours for $15. Like I say if they need to reduce what people get for the initial $60 so be it.
For high sales are what any game needs to recoup its cost. And a sub hurts sales - which means the sub ends up helping to pay for the core game and all the grand plans for new stuff become things they would like to tell you about but can't.
Of the $60 about 20% in EU and most other countries is tax (US bit more complicated). Of the remaining $48 the retailer takes a huge chunk with distribution and production taking more still; even online sales have costs - Visa/ Paypal, bandwidth etc. More profitable for sure but typically still less than 50% of all sales - EA just reported that online was well below expectations for PS4 and XBox1 because of bundles.
So off the $48 dollars after tax - pick your average return ... $30 probably on the high side but there are CE editions. Then decide how much the game cost ... $150M maybe - probably on the low side. Whatever - pick your own figures and you come up with a number. For $30 and $150M that's 5M copies. Ouch. And that means the sub has to pick up the slack. Unethical.
Scrap the sub. Sell 10M out of the door and another 10M over the following year. And then sell DLC every month or whatever at $15 or whatever. Bliss. They could even throw in a small yearly network charge - first year included.
Pick your own numbers. B2P + DLC, imo, makes more sense and is a much more direct and honest approach. Will avoid the XBox1 problem as well.
Comments
No, I don't. But I think you have an agenda underneath all of your comments and some of us are smart enough to see it. If that is your lame attempt to say that I don't have a right to expect value for my money then you can label me whatever you want.
The ones that meet them will get my money. The ones that don't won't.
Funny thing is in TSW, CO (which i have LTS to) and EVE which is on a years sub, as well as the other games i sometimes play .. I generally hear people bitching about limits of f2p and having to pay a sub or even a dollar or two to get pref. status
Yet here so many want f2p and in other games all i see is ppl moaning at limits and spending less than a round of drinks to get unlocks, bank space etc
I haven't read through all the posts, but these are my reasons why I prefer P2P after 15 years playing mmorpgs...
-> Less Gold Sellers / Hackers / Exploiters
->Less gold selling spam in chat
->Players can't have unlimited mules
-> Players behave better
->New players can buy the stuff you sell because they have access to mail, Auction House, and no gold cap
For me 15$ a month is not much, so if it's a game I really like and want to play I prefer that the entire game is P2P. I don't want to compete with bots or chinese prisoners on the auction house.
Even if you don't care about the ingame economy in a F2P game you will se lots of odd stuff, players porting around from node to node, maximum level chars killing lvl 1 NPC's for the 1 copper for 50 hours straight etc.
There will always be gold sellers even in a P2P game but they have to behave less suspicous and compete more on even levels with the playerbase. A real player will usually know more about the game and can make money faster than a forced prisoner in china.
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Paying 15 a month for an mmo 10 years ago was fine. But look what you get now. What does that money give you? The reason all these games have cash shops now is because of those f2p players that if like a game enough will spend more than your 15 a month. Its not the f2p players fault either. These so called AAA games coming out want as much money as they can get and thats why they offer the option. And believe it or not their are players that would rather go that way than pay a monthly. And every one of those games have something in the shop thats p2w. Its their biggest selling items and game companies now this. They don't care about you or mine's opinion about fair play. they just want the money.
In swotor you can bet they made a ton of money on those hotbars. I think from now on most mmo's will add f2p options because the money to be had is just to hard to turn down. The only ones that won't offer it are the niche games like Eve online. This is just a way to take in more money so get used to the idea. Star Trek online is the king of f2p. In fact your better off playing it this way. All the best item in the game are in the shop. A sub player gets nothing for subbing. Your just giving them extra money. Sure they limit a few things like slots but you can buy them. Their biggest selling item was the unlimited cash upgrade that wouuld unlock for the account. Wildstar and ESO will offer up f2p options. You can bet on it. They won't do it right away for fear of scaring off the hardcore i will only play a sub game crowd. This is a bussiness my friend. MMO companies need as much money as they can take in. Do you really think these companies are going turn away the growing number of players that want this option?
F2P games are sub par mmos. And if ESO goes F2p im staying far away.
I'm not seeing a fact in here anywhere. Failed sub games that go F2P were sub par MMOs.
I think for an MMO the best option is probably B2P. Sub fees are just a way to rip people off sicne there is no reason at all to have one these days, the servers and bandwidth just aren't expensive enough to require it anymore. Just like back in the day when they moved from pay by the hour to pay by the month.
The biggest factors in those people (all three groups) joining is the game's popularity, not their business model.
Again, gold sellers will go where the wallets are. More people playing means more wallets. This even brings up an important point; If all the F2P players are jobless free loading entitlement people... what have the gold sellers got for customers?
Yea, probably not to good to think about that for too long or the whole subscription only is the better choice argument falls apart.
How is this an issue at all?
Absolutely untrue. The best communities in major MMOs right now are the older, moved to F2P MMOs. You have people that are there because they love the game, not because it's the latest thing.
The worst communities I've seen are the newest games between the time of release and when the MMO locusts have consumed all the content and flown on to the nest new thing.
I thought F2P players were cheap. Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would rather buy something with fake in-game money from you, than creak open that 'poor person's' wallet and pay real money?
If you really have come across F2P players choosing to buy from the store over other players, it must mean F2P players have more money to spend than subscribers.
Welcome to MMOs, friend. I'll tell you right now, both bots and gold sellers (I'll avoid using the blatant racism you used, thanks) are not a symptom of F2P MMOs, they are a symptom of MMOs... especially the successful ones.
This doesn't even sound like you play MMOs. Are you really saying a high level would kill something over an over for 1 copper rather than go make 1 gold by killing one thing? I don't think you're being accurate or rational here.
Again with the racism? I hate to break it to you, but gold sellers know exactly how to make the fastest in-game cash. And the method for getting rid of them isn't a subscription (since they can clear way more real money in gold sales than 20 subscriptions cost... That is how it works by the way.) It's systems in the game to embrace real currency to in-game currency exchanges and take it out of the hands of the gold sellers.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
So as a gamer who is willing to spend money, why would I want to spend more? Why not just pay a simple sub & be done with it? I don't want walls. I don't want adverts. I don't want to think about rl currency in the middle of the relaxation I enjoy with my hobby. Keep your rl out of my mmo.
This is why I only play sub games.
Now, I don't blame those FTP folks for wanting something for nothing. It's human nature for certain types of individuals. The problem I have is that they are trying to convince people that it's free. It's not. Someone is paying. That someone will not be me. I won't pay for your entertainment. I refuse to let you ride my coattails. I'll pay the company a premium far & above what they ask for now to keep the FTP crowd out. Why, you ask? Because at least they produce something. The FTP gamers in the FTP games are just extras in a B movie, yet they think that they are movie stars. They are furniture in the room, that's it. To the whales, your just a backdrop or a punching bag.
Final Thought: For anyone who says FTP games are better than sub games. No one is buying that. FTP is a crutch holding up games that should have been shutdown or gone bankrupt. Simple as that.
Most of the people I see that want it to go free to play are the same ones that aren't very interested in putting money into this game to begin with.
Part of the opposition for a sub game seems like people don't want invest so much when they don't even know what the money is going towards. I'd think by now roadmaps(like what SOE has been doing even with it's F2P games like PS2) would be nearly required to keep subscribers or potential subscribers to stay involved.
The tired old comment about F2P players being jobless free loaders has been proven false with industry financial metrics so completely, that the continuation seems to be a combination of trolling, overcompensation for people with low incomes that need to feel like they are lording something over perceived 'poor people' and no longer humorous wives tales about swimming 1 hour after meals, moons made of cheese, and the poor government welfare recipient, project dwelling F2P MMO player wasting all day instead of getting jobs.
F2P players spend more money. The MMOs have published this information. SWTOR is top of the heap of F2P 'free loaders' making them bank.
The question then moves on to; Why don't the subscription folks want to come up off their money to keep their favorite game afloat? Why do they unsubscribe three months after release and then get mad when the game they left high and dry go F2P? Do they feel betrayed even though they betrayed first?
When the triple A game no longer looks viable to the suits in game publishing, we'll know right where to look for the reason; Three month subscription MMO locusts, consuming content as fast as they can unsubscribing and moving on to their next favorite game until they unsubscribe that one, too.
Just the opinion of the owner of two imperial edition pre-orders just on the hopes that this game will become something eventually. (Putting my money where my mouth is.) So stop complaining about F2P and go buy some cash shop items, support the genre or it's gone.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
You know, I just posted this earlier on this thread. It's kinda funny. If you've played every P2P games in the last 5 years like me, you'll know what I mean.
Exactly, those who promote F2P games are either those who are not willing to spend money in the longer run or are just following an agenda of the industry/stock exchange with their clever public relations.
Why should an honest player favour a F2P model who is seriously interested to stick with a game for longer and is actually looking for quality ?
F2P games dont have a feel of game anymore to me, they have a feel playing a SLOT MACHINE.
If you're that into the game why stop at $15 a month? Cough up some of that 'honesty and interest' in the cash shop...
One way or another were going to get a grand view of the difference in just a few more weeks.
I hope this is a success or the money behind the games will get just that much more skittish.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
It's really hard for me to see a outcome where this game doesn't make a lot more money than is being invested into to it regardless of what payment model it finally ends up settling on. Between the PC and Console launches of this game it's going to make money. Will it make WoW kind of money is a completely different question and a lot more doubtful so I guess it depends on the expectations of the money behind the game. From my understanding however Zenimax self funds most of their projects. I don't know if the scale of ESO forced them to go to outside sources or not however.
And for my 2 cents I think B2P with bimonthly paid DLC packs and vanity items would fit ESO quite well but if they can get on a aggressive content release schedule from day 1 and keep to it a sub will be fine to.
going f2p is gonna happen, its themepark & they aren't going to generate content fast enough & that most often why subs dip around that familiar 2-3 month mark...
PS: people saying P2P has no gold sellers are deluded.
Why should I play something which is called a game but reminds rather on a "slot machine" ?
Iam not going to support this direction, I have seen enough F2P games to build a opinion about such a payment methode and how are games actually developed just around a cash shop.
Just so you know, most of the people you see running around in F2P games are bots, or ten year old kids who can't afford a subscription.
I'll take quality over quantity.
Exactly. Once the Old Republic went F2P, updates came to a dead standstill. They barely released free content. Any content you wanted you had to pay for in the form of mini expansions. And even then the content was limited. Mostly what they spent their time on was new cash shop costumes that people could buy to run around in. Like Hutt Slave outfits. -.-'
For real. People spend soooo much more in F2P games than subscription games. I don't get how players have not come to understand this. F2P is a recipe for either failure, or exploitation of gamers.
People seem to think GW2 has done a fair job with it, and while I admit they've done better than most, their updates are far fewer than they really should be (considering a Triple A mmo,) and neglect balance almost entirely in favor of... who knows what.
You're the one that told F2P players to put their money where their mouth is and support the game.
All I did, was put the same point to you, and it seems you're not willing to go the extra mile to support the game.
It's that simple.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Actually, OP, you don't have a choice in the matter and if the rumor of a lifetime subscription comes to pass, then it means their own analysts are predicting that the sub will drop.
Not to mention, as others have, that B2P games like TSW and GW2 don't have those kinds of restrictions... at least GW2 doesn't on content.. yet...
This game will drop its sub sooner or later, more likely sooner if you look at the media reviews. If you can't impress the media, you will have a hell of a harder time impressing the MMO-worn-out crowd (that was the targeted demographic) that has been playing MMOs for over 10 years.
WoW was never the norm, but the exception to the rule. It is the Windows of MMOs.
Because 15/mo for a POS that doesn't innovate is robbery.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Stop using the 1 crappy version of F2P thats came out in the last 10 years. There are countless examples of good F2P/Freeimum/B2P games: ArchAge, Rift, DDO, LOTR, TSW, CoX, Champions, AoC. GW 1 and 2, AoW
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I would say that GW2 probably has the most updates of any MMO out there at the moment with their fortnightly living story updates. Of course these are only generally smaller updates and temporary for the most part but it's still more content being added than say in WoW with their once every 4-6 months content patches for which they charge you $60-$90 in sub fees (@ $15/month).
As for ESO. It's not a good enough game to be a sub game. B2P with a cash shop of vanity items or upgrades that you can also buy with in game money (inventory increases etc) would be the best way to go. Instead they have gone with sub fee + first day DLC (Imperial Edition) + cash shop. That is just plain greedy and the game will suffer because of it.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
Lets not forget a very big difference between f2p and sub...
From that point on, the game will be updated sure, and bug fixed but... New armor, weapon models etc will solely be purchasable in the ingame store. You can forget about them adding items that look unique in game unless you fork over the extra cash. This is what kills it for me with ftp. It detracts from features you would get along with a sub. When will cheapskates realize the model encourages greed of the developers?
Give me a ftp game with a sub option, and offers the sub people ALL the things in the ingame shop ( even questable attainment is fine ) and then sure.
Agree - especially about the B2P option + DLC; and if they don't have the DLC content currently they should reduce the core - which by all accounts is large - and make sure they do. It is a very honest approach as well. You don't know what you are getting for a sub and inevitably devs will talk up their plans. If the core game is 200 hours or 400 hours for $60 are you really going to get anything like 50 or 100 hours for $15. Like I say if they need to reduce what people get for the initial $60 so be it.
For high sales are what any game needs to recoup its cost. And a sub hurts sales - which means the sub ends up helping to pay for the core game and all the grand plans for new stuff become things they would like to tell you about but can't.
Of the $60 about 20% in EU and most other countries is tax (US bit more complicated). Of the remaining $48 the retailer takes a huge chunk with distribution and production taking more still; even online sales have costs - Visa/ Paypal, bandwidth etc. More profitable for sure but typically still less than 50% of all sales - EA just reported that online was well below expectations for PS4 and XBox1 because of bundles.
So off the $48 dollars after tax - pick your average return ... $30 probably on the high side but there are CE editions. Then decide how much the game cost ... $150M maybe - probably on the low side. Whatever - pick your own figures and you come up with a number. For $30 and $150M that's 5M copies. Ouch. And that means the sub has to pick up the slack. Unethical.
Scrap the sub. Sell 10M out of the door and another 10M over the following year. And then sell DLC every month or whatever at $15 or whatever. Bliss. They could even throw in a small yearly network charge - first year included.
Pick your own numbers. B2P + DLC, imo, makes more sense and is a much more direct and honest approach. Will avoid the XBox1 problem as well.