You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
While the wall between sub and f2p has blurred I think comparing selling a class in a F2p at launch and one in a sub game is still a bit of a stretch. I'm not overly worked up over what Zenimax is doing but I won't say I'm happy about it either. My concern is it sets a trend of sub fee alone not giving you access to all the content in the game which I think will be a hard sell long term for them. The typical sub based MMO by the time the first pay expansion comes out the community has settled in so it's impact is minimal to positive. If they go the route of charging for content in addition to subs It will work for the first 30-60 days but it's going to cost them more subs than the content sales will earn long term.
This is a typical kind of thing for a single player game for sure but again we don't pay a monthly fee for SPG's so charging for DLC content is expected.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to.
I keep reading people saying some variation on this point in this thread, and I think that you're talking past the OP. He's not suggesting that laws be passed to prevent it, just that it is a bad practice that we should ask to have amended or not support.
I mean, yea, they can price the thing any way that they want, but we can criticize the practice and talk about how it affects the consumer without Captain Obvious pointing it out every thread.
It's not even relevant really. Does anyone not know that ESO can use whatever pricing method they want? Has any new or useful information been revealed by your point? No.
Now, is it a practice that you, as a gamer, would be happy to have in a game that you want to play? I would venture to say that you probably wouldn't want to have to pay for content beyond the box price + subscription if you could avoid it. If you would want to pay that extra money, make that argument, but you're just stating the obvious as it is now.
I agree with you, but people keep accusing others of being cheap, entitled, whatever. It's not really an entitlement issue as I am perfectly happy with the idea that people can vote with their wallets and not purchase the game if they are upset by it. So sometimes I say that just so people won't automatically resort to personal attacks about what a cheap, entitled piece of shit I must be for thinking that selling a race in an "optional expansion" at release in a game with a sub + box price is not only unprecedented, but also makes a lot of people upset.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
NWO is a F2P game. DDO is a F2P game.
What a surprising answer that I was totally not expecting!
You don't see the parallels? The core game is distinguished from bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a B2P, F2P, Sub, whatever pricing model. There's the base game, and then there's bonuses. Everything offered in the CE is distinctly a bonus.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
NWO is a F2P game. DDO is a F2P game.
What a surprising answer that I was totally not expecting!
You don't see the parallels? The core game is distinguished from bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a B2P, F2P, Sub, whatever pricing model. There's the base game, and then there's bonuses. Everything offered in the CE is distinctly a bonus.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
Originally posted by Rusque Originally posted by BeansnBread Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by BeansnBread Originally posted by Vermillion_RaventhalYeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
Thing is again that collector's editions have offered exclusive crap since at least EQ 2 which was released shortly before WoW. The reason I said personal value is that obviously players value this race more then pets, mounts, unique items and other things previously offered in collectors editions. Players are also wrapped up in the semantics between the blocking access to races and classes by expansion vs. cash shops vs. special edition games which are all pay walls.
I don't support having exclusive gameplay sold. I think core gameolay should be available to those with or without the expansion. But I am not goung to act like this is something new because it just happens they're selling something I care about.
We need an Organization that will take responsibility to limit this companies freedom in customers benefit because customers scammed. Witch also will add a price limit to pixels because this companies are becoming way to greedy.
Industry that makes 60 bilion revenue yearly if I'm not wrong in numbers but still huge income must have an organization that will make sure that customers are not scammed by ridiculous pay gates and pixel prices.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
NWO is not a sub game so why are you even bringing it into this? And how do you know this will have no impact on the game? The ad to preorder states "Play as an Imperial and play in any Alliance. Gain unique bonuses, crafting styles, gear and more!"
Unique bonuses...crafting styles...gear...and more? Nah.....no way could this impact the game at all. Good call bro.
NWO is not a sub game so why are you even bringing it into this? And how do you know this will have no impact on the game? The ad to preorder states "Play as an Imperial and play in any Alliance. Gain unique bonuses, crafting styles, gear and more!"
Unique bonuses...crafting styles...gear...and more? Nah.....no way could this impact the game at all. Good call bro.
"Let me start by saying that F2P games have the right to put pay barriers on pretty much whatever they want if they're not charging anything to play the basic game."
Why is any different for a B2P or a sub-only game? It is their game. They have the right to sell content anyway they want to.
If you don't like the class, don't buy it. If you don't like the game, don't buy it. If you don't like them selling classes, don't buy the game.
In fact, given the fierce competition from f2p, i doubt a sub + selling classes will fly. But at the end of the day, i support their right to sell their stuff as they see fit.
Ok well your speech just cost that company 2 million dollars. Because I don't like it and I won't buy it, and there are thousands of other people who agree.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
Games I didn't play, and for good reason!
Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it's popular and 10mil bought it, right?
NWO is not a sub game so why are you even bringing it into this? And how do you know this will have no impact on the game? The ad to preorder states "Play as an Imperial and play in any Alliance. Gain unique bonuses, crafting styles, gear and more!"
Unique bonuses...crafting styles...gear...and more? Nah.....no way could this impact the game at all. Good call bro.
You obviously haven't done your homework.
I always did my homework at lunch time. Nothing like working under pressure for a deadline!
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
NWO is a F2P game. DDO is a F2P game.
What a surprising answer that I was totally not expecting!
You don't see the parallels? The core game is distinguished from bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a B2P, F2P, Sub, whatever pricing model. There's the base game, and then there's bonuses. Everything offered in the CE is distinctly a bonus.
It's still a F2P game, which is full of whales wanting to buy their way to the top.
WoW?
WotLK - Death Knights - paid no extra.
Cata - Worgen - paid no extra.
MoP - Panderian - paid no extra.
With 50 characters per client in WoW (and no other MMO allows that many alts per CLIENT), Blizzard has a l-o-n-g time and space to add even more.
If folks think about it, that's probably why WoW is popular because players can level so many races and classes, without the pay gates, too.
F2P games? First thing reduced is character slots and races/classes are "exclusive" items.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
NWO is a F2P game. DDO is a F2P game.
What a surprising answer that I was totally not expecting!
You don't see the parallels? The core game is distinguished from bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a B2P, F2P, Sub, whatever pricing model. There's the base game, and then there's bonuses. Everything offered in the CE is distinctly a bonus.
It's still a F2P game, which is full of whales wanting to buy their way to the top.
WoW?
WotLK - Death Knights - paid no extra.
Cata - Worgen - paid no extra.
MoP - Panderian - paid no extra.
With 50 characters per client in WoW (and no other MMO allows that many alts per CLIENT), Blizzard has a l-o-n-g time and space to add even more.
If folks think about it, that's probably why WoW is popular because players can level so many races and classes, without the pay gates, too.
F2P games? First thing reduced is character slots and races/classes are "exclusive" items.
Yes, isn't WoW the posterchild of sainthood.
Biggest sub game . . . started selling mounts and pets so they could print more money.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
A lot is looking at the WoW subs.
How do you think WoW is popular? Just because of the Chuck Norris jokes???
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
Yeah, I don't really know how many. It could be 1%. It could be 70%.
Will we be paying extra to unlock a certain class?
Or only people who purchased the CE can access a certain raid?
Many games - with and without subscription - have had new classes or new content such as raids made available through purchases. It's nothing new or shocking.
Although usually this isn't the case for launch. That being said, being unable to play a certain race or class or race/class combination doesn't prevent one from experiencing all of the game unless they are a person that plays through the game with every possible combination. Those people however are few and far between and chance are, if you're the sort of person that likes a game enough to want to play through every possible race/class combo, chances are that you like it enough to buy that opportunity.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
Yeah, I don't really know how many. It could be 1%. It could be 70%.
Would be interesting to know the percentage.
If "lot" is indeed a majority, then all they have to do is not buy a game that uses these practices and the devs will have to react because it hurts their revenue substabtially.
If the lot is just a few percent, then they can't expect to force their minority opinions onto the majority.
Just to be clear, I am not implying voicing a personal dislike against these methods is not OK. Ofcourse it is.
Just saying in the minority case you shouldn't expect it to have much impact.
None the less, voting with your wallet is always a good option.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
Do you have statistics or is it just you and 10 friends?
A lot of people don't think adding a cash shop to WOW selling pets and mounts is unacceptable. In fact, Blizz made millions off those.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
Do you have statistics or is it just you and 10 friends?
A lot of people don't think adding a cash shop to WOW selling pets and mounts is unacceptable. In fact, Blizz made millions off those.
Why is classes any different?
Me and 10 friends.
Edit: Obviously a lot of people also don't mind locking the content behind a cash shop in a sub game. In this case, races are different because it's never been done before in a sub game. On top of that, the races actually affect gameplay.
But, like I've said before, it's fine that they're asking for it, I just personally don't like that type of payment model in a sub game whether it be in WoW or any other sub game.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
Yeah, I don't really know how many. It could be 1%. It could be 70%.
Would be interesting to know the percentage.
If "lot" is indeed a majority, then all they have to do is not buy a game that uses these practices and the devs will have to react because it hurts their revenue substabtially.
It's enough that Blizzard asked the players about the pricing for even WoD, and the powerup to level 90.
Pets and cosmetics aren't an issue as they don't directly affect the game. Sis has that "rarest mount", but it doesn't change how the game is played, for example. Same with my Time-Lost Protodrake. BUT if Blizzard offered any gear with stats for sale, the WoW forum will melt in rage. It's just something that isn't crossed in that game -- got to raid or PvP for stat gear.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
You're facing two obstacles that you've created for yourself.
You perceive an expansion to be different from other additional items or services offered outside of the base subscription.
You perceive an expansion to be mandatory and not optional.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
You're facing two obstacles that you've created for yourself.
You perceive an expansion to be different from other additional items or services offered outside of the base subscription.
You perceive an expansion to be mandatory and not optional.
Neither of those statements are actually true of what I think. Actually, if you read the post you quoted, it's right there. I even went so far as to be willing to call the content an "optional expansion" outright. I got that verbiage from another poster. You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of what I'm writing and are instead pushing your perceptions onto what I write.
If you want to call it equivalent to an expansion, I'm fine with that. Traditionally, sub games don't release with an expansion on release day.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
You're facing two obstacles that you've created for yourself.
You perceive an expansion to be different from other additional items or services offered outside of the base subscription.
You perceive an expansion to be mandatory and not optional.
Neither of those statements are actually true of what I think. Actually, if you read the post you quoted, it's right there. I even went so far as to be willing to call the content an "optional expansion" outright. I got that verbiage from another poster. You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of what I'm writing and are instead pushing your perceptions onto what I write.
If you want to call it equivalent to an expansion, I'm fine with that. Traditionally, sub games don't release with an expansion on release day.
I'm not saying it's an expansion. I'm telling you it's no different than any other optional content available at release, and for the past six or seven years, optional content at release has become industry standard. You can call it DLC, cash shop, expansion, item mall, deluxe editions, ... whatever you want to call it.
Exclusive content and early access to content in pre-release SKUs is the norm for subscription MMOs, including races, as we've seen with SB, STO and NWO.
I am addressing your contention directly. I'm trying to provide examples and explanations, and hopefully they help. Then again, maybe I've got it all wrong. It's entirely possible that when it comes to marketing or MMOs, I don't know squat, so follow your heart on this one, Beans. As for me, I'm headed off to try to haul a donkey-cart full of deer carcasses to my favorite virtual town without getting my ass handed to me along the way. You have a great night.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
While the wall between sub and f2p has blurred I think comparing selling a class in a F2p at launch and one in a sub game is still a bit of a stretch. I'm not overly worked up over what Zenimax is doing but I won't say I'm happy about it either. My concern is it sets a trend of sub fee alone not giving you access to all the content in the game which I think will be a hard sell long term for them. The typical sub based MMO by the time the first pay expansion comes out the community has settled in so it's impact is minimal to positive. If they go the route of charging for content in addition to subs It will work for the first 30-60 days but it's going to cost them more subs than the content sales will earn long term.
This is a typical kind of thing for a single player game for sure but again we don't pay a monthly fee for SPG's so charging for DLC content is expected.
I agree with you, but people keep accusing others of being cheap, entitled, whatever. It's not really an entitlement issue as I am perfectly happy with the idea that people can vote with their wallets and not purchase the game if they are upset by it. So sometimes I say that just so people won't automatically resort to personal attacks about what a cheap, entitled piece of shit I must be for thinking that selling a race in an "optional expansion" at release in a game with a sub + box price is not only unprecedented, but also makes a lot of people upset.
What a surprising answer that I was totally not expecting!
You don't see the parallels? The core game is distinguished from bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a B2P, F2P, Sub, whatever pricing model. There's the base game, and then there's bonuses. Everything offered in the CE is distinctly a bonus.
Ah, but a lot of people do think it matters. A lot of people think that adding a cash shop with races into a sub game is unacceptable. It just doesn't matter to you.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
Thing is again that collector's editions have offered exclusive crap since at least EQ 2 which was released shortly before WoW. The reason I said personal value is that obviously players value this race more then pets, mounts, unique items and other things previously offered in collectors editions. Players are also wrapped up in the semantics between the blocking access to races and classes by expansion vs. cash shops vs. special edition games which are all pay walls.I don't support having exclusive gameplay sold. I think core gameolay should be available to those with or without the expansion. But I am not goung to act like this is something new because it just happens they're selling something I care about.
We need an Organization that will take responsibility to limit this companies freedom in customers benefit because customers scammed. Witch also will add a price limit to pixels because this companies are becoming way to greedy.
Industry that makes 60 bilion revenue yearly if I'm not wrong in numbers but still huge income must have an organization that will make sure that customers are not scammed by ridiculous pay gates and pixel prices.
NWO is not a sub game so why are you even bringing it into this? And how do you know this will have no impact on the game? The ad to preorder states "Play as an Imperial and play in any Alliance. Gain unique bonuses, crafting styles, gear and more!"
Unique bonuses...crafting styles...gear...and more? Nah.....no way could this impact the game at all. Good call bro.
You obviously haven't done your homework.
Ok well your speech just cost that company 2 million dollars. Because I don't like it and I won't buy it, and there are thousands of other people who agree.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Games I didn't play, and for good reason!
Just because it can be done doesn't mean that it's popular and 10mil bought it, right?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I always did my homework at lunch time. Nothing like working under pressure for a deadline!
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
It's still a F2P game, which is full of whales wanting to buy their way to the top.
WoW?
WotLK - Death Knights - paid no extra.
Cata - Worgen - paid no extra.
MoP - Panderian - paid no extra.
With 50 characters per client in WoW (and no other MMO allows that many alts per CLIENT), Blizzard has a l-o-n-g time and space to add even more.
If folks think about it, that's probably why WoW is popular because players can level so many races and classes, without the pay gates, too.
F2P games? First thing reduced is character slots and races/classes are "exclusive" items.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yes, isn't WoW the posterchild of sainthood.
Biggest sub game . . . started selling mounts and pets so they could print more money.
Soon to offer paid level 90.
A "lot" in terms of the percentage who have that opinion on internet forums? Sure. A lot in the context of the numbers of people who purchase MMOs at launch? Lol.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
A lot is looking at the WoW subs.
How do you think WoW is popular? Just because of the Chuck Norris jokes???
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yeah, I don't really know how many. It could be 1%. It could be 70%.
Many games - with and without subscription - have had new classes or new content such as raids made available through purchases. It's nothing new or shocking.
Although usually this isn't the case for launch. That being said, being unable to play a certain race or class or race/class combination doesn't prevent one from experiencing all of the game unless they are a person that plays through the game with every possible combination. Those people however are few and far between and chance are, if you're the sort of person that likes a game enough to want to play through every possible race/class combo, chances are that you like it enough to buy that opportunity.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Would be interesting to know the percentage.
If "lot" is indeed a majority, then all they have to do is not buy a game that uses these practices and the devs will have to react because it hurts their revenue substabtially.
If the lot is just a few percent, then they can't expect to force their minority opinions onto the majority.
Just to be clear, I am not implying voicing a personal dislike against these methods is not OK. Ofcourse it is.
Just saying in the minority case you shouldn't expect it to have much impact.
None the less, voting with your wallet is always a good option.
Do you have statistics or is it just you and 10 friends?
A lot of people don't think adding a cash shop to WOW selling pets and mounts is unacceptable. In fact, Blizz made millions off those.
Why is classes any different?
Me and 10 friends.
Edit: Obviously a lot of people also don't mind locking the content behind a cash shop in a sub game. In this case, races are different because it's never been done before in a sub game. On top of that, the races actually affect gameplay.
But, like I've said before, it's fine that they're asking for it, I just personally don't like that type of payment model in a sub game whether it be in WoW or any other sub game.
It's enough that Blizzard asked the players about the pricing for even WoD, and the powerup to level 90.
Pets and cosmetics aren't an issue as they don't directly affect the game. Sis has that "rarest mount", but it doesn't change how the game is played, for example. Same with my Time-Lost Protodrake. BUT if Blizzard offered any gear with stats for sale, the WoW forum will melt in rage. It's just something that isn't crossed in that game -- got to raid or PvP for stat gear.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
You're facing two obstacles that you've created for yourself.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Neither of those statements are actually true of what I think. Actually, if you read the post you quoted, it's right there. I even went so far as to be willing to call the content an "optional expansion" outright. I got that verbiage from another poster. You seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of what I'm writing and are instead pushing your perceptions onto what I write.
If you want to call it equivalent to an expansion, I'm fine with that. Traditionally, sub games don't release with an expansion on release day.
I'm not saying it's an expansion. I'm telling you it's no different than any other optional content available at release, and for the past six or seven years, optional content at release has become industry standard. You can call it DLC, cash shop, expansion, item mall, deluxe editions, ... whatever you want to call it.
Exclusive content and early access to content in pre-release SKUs is the norm for subscription MMOs, including races, as we've seen with SB, STO and NWO.
I am addressing your contention directly. I'm trying to provide examples and explanations, and hopefully they help. Then again, maybe I've got it all wrong. It's entirely possible that when it comes to marketing or MMOs, I don't know squat, so follow your heart on this one, Beans. As for me, I'm headed off to try to haul a donkey-cart full of deer carcasses to my favorite virtual town without getting my ass handed to me along the way. You have a great night.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)