It's still a price above and beyond a sub, which was his point. Whew...the cognitive bias is strong with this one.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
A very important factor that you both (and many others, to be fair) miss, is that MMORPGs are not only games. They are also a Service.
You buy the Game. You subscribe to the Service.
The Game is all the code. The graphics. The music. The voice-overs. Everything that comprises the content you install on your hard drive.
The Service encompasses the ability to log in, access their servers, which are running on a lot of expensive machinery, using electric that has to be paid for, played over connections requiring a lot of bandwidth which must be paid for, maintained by a number of IT folks who must be paid for, working in an office with overhead costs that must be paid for. You receive on-going bug-fixes and content-updates (typically included with the sub fee), not to mention the necessity of GMs whom are also paid, or Support Staff... whom is also paid. In a nutshell, the Service portion comprises everything the developer must have and do to assure that you can log on when ever you want and play (outside of maintenance or unexpected downtime, of course).
Buying an expansion is more akin to buying a sequel to a game than a Cash-Shop style purchase. You are buying what can more or less be considered a whole new game's worth of content. That is a flat fee... for the content. You then continue to pay the subscription fee for all those things I listed above.
This isn't something I'm just "making up" either. The information is out there, and has been out there.. For a long time. Hell, I have a book, entitled "Developing Online Games", (very interesting and informative read whose concepts/principals can still be seen playing out in the genre to this day). That book dates back to 2003 and explains all this.
So, if folks weren't aware of this, then it's understandable. It's not like Developers go around informing everyone of this, and it's not something one is likely to know unless they actively go looking for it (I personally did 'cause my interest in MMOs goes beyond just playing them). If people are aware of this and choose to remain willfully ignorant just so they can continue to make a flawed argument... then that's on them. Ignorance isn't an argument.
Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.
I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.
IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.
Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.
And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.
Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.
And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways.
And those buying services from an utility EXPECT the utility to offer services they advertize, it's consistent, and if something goes wrong, the customer can contact them for help.
If companies start raising subs, and offer less (or develop their own entitled behaviors), well there's many companies bigger than video game companies that dissolved over POOR SERVICE.
Competition in the business world includes offering what other companies don't, and those companies that can offer more -- and with a smile -- will attract the most business. Customers love to be treated well, even grumpy skeptical types. -_-
Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.
I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.
IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.
Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.
And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.
Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.
And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways.
Yes, indeed. That's why we can see where this industry is going, and we just have to go along with the flow.
SOE has already done this.I was paying for 3 subs and yet i could not get the Freeblood class unless i paid them extra.
I did not see that many Freeblood class players and i quit SOE altogether so i wonder how that greed made out for them.Not only did they lose my 3 subs,they lost my support in the future as well.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's still a price above and beyond a sub, which was his point. Whew...the cognitive bias is strong with this one.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
A very important factor that you both (and many others, to be fair) miss, is that MMORPGs are not only games. They are also a Service.
You buy the Game. You subscribe to the Service.
The Game is all the code. The graphics. The music. The voice-overs. Everything that comprises the content you install on your hard drive.
The Service encompasses the ability to log in, access their servers, which are running on a lot of expensive machinery, using electric that has to be paid for, played over connections requiring a lot of bandwidth which must be paid for, maintained by a number of IT folks who must be paid for, working in an office with overhead costs that must be paid for. You receive on-going bug-fixes and content-updates (typically included with the sub fee), not to mention the necessity of GMs whom are also paid, or Support Staff... whom is also paid. In a nutshell, the Service portion comprises everything the developer must have and do to assure that you can log on when ever you want and play (outside of maintenance or unexpected downtime, of course).
Buying an expansion is more akin to buying a sequel to a game than a Cash-Shop style purchase. You are buying what can more or less be considered a whole new game's worth of content. That is a flat fee... for the content. You then continue to pay the subscription fee for all those things I listed above.
This isn't something I'm just "making up" either. The information is out there, and has been out there.. For a long time. Hell, I have a book, entitled "Developing Online Games", (very interesting and informative read whose concepts/principals can still be seen playing out in the genre to this day). That book dates back to 2003 and explains all this.
So, if folks weren't aware of this, then it's understandable. It's not like Developers go around informing everyone of this, and it's not something one is likely to know unless they actively go looking for it (I personally did 'cause my interest in MMOs goes beyond just playing them). If people are aware of this and choose to remain willfully ignorant just so they can continue to make a flawed argument... then that's on them. Ignorance isn't an argument.
Again your trying to separate one pay wall from another by your personal value system. If you pay 30 dollars for an expansion to play Pandas or you paid 10 dollars for just the Pandas its still a pay wall. We've been paying extra for crap in collectors editions.
It's more like signing up for a wireless phone plan that entails buying a phone. You pay $100 (or $200 or whatever) for the phone. You now own the phone. However, you still have to subscribe to their service, and you pay that fee monthly. Stop paying the fee and while you can keep the the phone, you can no longer access the service. Same exact basic idea, yet no one argues that they're "being forced to buy the phone over and over again even though they already bought it".
And those buying services from an utility EXPECT the utility to offer services they advertize, it's consistent, and if something goes wrong, the customer can contact them for help.
If companies start raising subs, and offer less (or develop their own entitled behaviors), well there's many companies bigger than video game companies that dissolved over POOR SERVICE.
Competition in the business world includes offering what other companies don't, and those companies that can offer more -- and with a smile -- will attract the most business. Customers love to be treated well, even grumpy skeptical types. -_-
Not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing or just adding some incidental thoughts to what I said in those last bits.
I'm not discussing the idea of "raising subs" or "offering less" in my post. I'm addressing one specific argument that I see made a lot, and that was how buying an expansion pack is the equivalent of gated content via a cash shop or whatever, even though it "should" be included for the sub fee. I was explaining how that's incorrect, relating to the distinction between the Game (or expansion) which you buy as a one-time purchase, and the Service which you subscribe to.
No one should ever expect that their monthly sub is getting them access to anything more than what it's intended to - which I noted in my last reply. If someone goes into a sub-based game assuming that the sub alone is supposed to pay for all future updates, including full retail expansions, then that's a flaw in their own assumptions or understanding. Not a flaw in the subscription/expansion model itself.
The developers are quite clear and up-front about it. The price is on the box (or the shelf sticker. The notice that online fees are required is right on the box, with the first 30 days included in the initial purchase (where/when applicable). Players are getting exactly what's advertised/described.
Ultimately, most of the arguments I see against subscriptions are demonstrably rooted in a complete misunderstanding, or deliberate mis-characterization of what they are and how they work.
Again your trying to separate one pay wall from another by your personal value system. If you pay 30 dollars for an expansion to play Pandas or you paid 10 dollars for just the Pandas its still a pay wall. We've been paying extra for crap in collectors editions.
You maybe because you chose to buy them.
I don't buy the WoW CEs as it's pointless. I'll pre-order the regular version just so I can help my family (as Blizzard has shown it really doesn't want or know how to balance paladins...not like we have 51 spells and combat abilities to consolidate to balance them better. We're a burst class in WoW, that's been straitjacketed because of being bursty. So we get extra and a literally stupid power system on top of severe constraints on mana to curtail that burst. PLUS, l-o-n-g GCDs to the point of craziness and zero resistance to any school of magic on top of it all. In short, we're too good, nerf the class into the ground, instead. #1 class [most played] in WoW treated in this fashion. Don't like the class why on earth did they even include it, especially Holy paladins???).
It's the content I care about, and that content is what I buy. But the moment something standard in the game is offered for a price, that's when it'll be addressed.
Again your trying to separate one pay wall from another by your personal value system. If you pay 30 dollars for an expansion to play Pandas or you paid 10 dollars for just the Pandas its still a pay wall. We've been paying extra for crap in collectors editions.
lol?
"Personal value system"? Are you kidding me?
If anyone is going on "personal value systems" here, it's you. I'm just stating facts. My opinion, or "personal value" of it either way makes absolutely no difference. You, and others, repeatedly crying "pay wall! pay wall! pay wall!" makes absolutely no difference.
You can continuously insist an apple is really an orange all day long... It's still going to be an apple.
That's the way the retail-box + subscription model works, and has worked for over a decade.
Original Game Game and Retail Expansions = One-Time Purchase
Access to the Service for the game and all it entails (including intermittent content updates) = on-going subscription.
That's it. You can spin it any way you want, as much as you want. You can chant "pay wall!" 'til your fingers are sore from typing it. You'll just continue to be wrong.
I'm not discussing the idea of "raising subs" or "offering less" in my post. I'm addressing one specific argument that I see made a lot, and that was how buying an expansion pack is the equivalent of gated content via a cash shop or whatever, even though it "should" be included for the sub fee. I was explaining how that's incorrect, relating to the distinction between the Game (or expansion) which you buy as a one-time purchase, and the Service which you subscribe to.
How is that different from a class unlock, which is also a one-time purchase?
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by plat0nic i agree, cash shop should not be in a subscription game. it's called greedy corporatism.... gamers will buck up for it no doubt though.
Yes, how dare a company seek to make money on something they spent many thousands of hours and millions of dollars to create, the bastards.
Don't like the cash shop, don't use it. Problem solved.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Originally posted by plat0nic i agree, cash shop should not be in a subscription game. it's called greedy corporatism.... gamers will buck up for it no doubt though.
Yes, how dare a company seek to make money on something they spent many thousands of hours and millions of dollars to create, the bastards.
Don't like the cash shop, don't use it. Problem solved.
For me that isn't problem solved. For me that is asking me to pay a monthly subscription and then dangling something in front of my face after I have already paid for a box copy and a monthly fee and saying "want it? give me more". It's not AS bad if they implement cash shop from the start so you know what you are getting into but to put it in later after hundreds of dollars have been spent just to have a new player able to buy their way to the top is disrespectful to the hard work and hours people have put in to their characters. Just my opinion but I think it lessens the integrity of the game.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Naw, what's next is Pay per hour AOL online style!
Every 1 hour you must pay $1. Then, it is convenient for YOU! Because YOU can play when you want and how you want! No need to spend $15 a month if you only play 10 hours a month!
We love our gamers, and this is an extension of our thanks! We want YOU to pay when YOU play, not when you don't!
(Lol this is all sarcasm of course, would be a terrible idea, but this is the kind of spit that the companies spew out.)
But yeah, spit is getting ridiculous. I think my LoL moment came when I saw that SWG charges money for skill bars. LOL...thats probably one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them. Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on. Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to.
I keep reading people saying some variation on this point in this thread, and I think that you're talking past the OP. He's not suggesting that laws be passed to prevent it, just that it is a bad practice that we should ask to have amended or not support.
I mean, yea, they can price the thing any way that they want, but we can criticize the practice and talk about how it affects the consumer without Captain Obvious pointing it out every thread.
It's not even relevant really. Does anyone not know that ESO can use whatever pricing method they want? Has any new or useful information been revealed by your point? No.
Now, is it a practice that you, as a gamer, would be happy to have in a game that you want to play? I would venture to say that you probably wouldn't want to have to pay for content beyond the box price + subscription if you could avoid it. If you would want to pay that extra money, make that argument, but you're just stating the obvious as it is now.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
Comments
A very important factor that you both (and many others, to be fair) miss, is that MMORPGs are not only games. They are also a Service.
You buy the Game. You subscribe to the Service.
The Game is all the code. The graphics. The music. The voice-overs. Everything that comprises the content you install on your hard drive.
The Service encompasses the ability to log in, access their servers, which are running on a lot of expensive machinery, using electric that has to be paid for, played over connections requiring a lot of bandwidth which must be paid for, maintained by a number of IT folks who must be paid for, working in an office with overhead costs that must be paid for. You receive on-going bug-fixes and content-updates (typically included with the sub fee), not to mention the necessity of GMs whom are also paid, or Support Staff... whom is also paid. In a nutshell, the Service portion comprises everything the developer must have and do to assure that you can log on when ever you want and play (outside of maintenance or unexpected downtime, of course).
Buying an expansion is more akin to buying a sequel to a game than a Cash-Shop style purchase. You are buying what can more or less be considered a whole new game's worth of content. That is a flat fee... for the content. You then continue to pay the subscription fee for all those things I listed above.
This isn't something I'm just "making up" either. The information is out there, and has been out there.. For a long time. Hell, I have a book, entitled "Developing Online Games", (very interesting and informative read whose concepts/principals can still be seen playing out in the genre to this day). That book dates back to 2003 and explains all this.
So, if folks weren't aware of this, then it's understandable. It's not like Developers go around informing everyone of this, and it's not something one is likely to know unless they actively go looking for it (I personally did 'cause my interest in MMOs goes beyond just playing them). If people are aware of this and choose to remain willfully ignorant just so they can continue to make a flawed argument... then that's on them. Ignorance isn't an argument.
Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.
So you're saying if they were treated for their gaming addictions those publishers should go extinct then?
I mean gaming is a people driven market, after all.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.
IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.
Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.
And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.
Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.
And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways.
Just like buying services from an utility.
And those buying services from an utility EXPECT the utility to offer services they advertize, it's consistent, and if something goes wrong, the customer can contact them for help.
If companies start raising subs, and offer less (or develop their own entitled behaviors), well there's many companies bigger than video game companies that dissolved over POOR SERVICE.
Competition in the business world includes offering what other companies don't, and those companies that can offer more -- and with a smile -- will attract the most business. Customers love to be treated well, even grumpy skeptical types. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yes, indeed. That's why we can see where this industry is going, and we just have to go along with the flow.
They are withing their rights to charge what ever they want for what ever, provided they are upfront about what they are charging for!
I already decided not to play this game so makes no difference to me what they charge for!
SOE has already done this.I was paying for 3 subs and yet i could not get the Freeblood class unless i paid them extra.
I did not see that many Freeblood class players and i quit SOE altogether so i wonder how that greed made out for them.Not only did they lose my 3 subs,they lost my support in the future as well.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Again your trying to separate one pay wall from another by your personal value system. If you pay 30 dollars for an expansion to play Pandas or you paid 10 dollars for just the Pandas its still a pay wall. We've been paying extra for crap in collectors editions.
Not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing or just adding some incidental thoughts to what I said in those last bits.
I'm not discussing the idea of "raising subs" or "offering less" in my post. I'm addressing one specific argument that I see made a lot, and that was how buying an expansion pack is the equivalent of gated content via a cash shop or whatever, even though it "should" be included for the sub fee. I was explaining how that's incorrect, relating to the distinction between the Game (or expansion) which you buy as a one-time purchase, and the Service which you subscribe to.
No one should ever expect that their monthly sub is getting them access to anything more than what it's intended to - which I noted in my last reply. If someone goes into a sub-based game assuming that the sub alone is supposed to pay for all future updates, including full retail expansions, then that's a flaw in their own assumptions or understanding. Not a flaw in the subscription/expansion model itself.
The developers are quite clear and up-front about it. The price is on the box (or the shelf sticker. The notice that online fees are required is right on the box, with the first 30 days included in the initial purchase (where/when applicable). Players are getting exactly what's advertised/described.
Ultimately, most of the arguments I see against subscriptions are demonstrably rooted in a complete misunderstanding, or deliberate mis-characterization of what they are and how they work.
You maybe because you chose to buy them.
I don't buy the WoW CEs as it's pointless. I'll pre-order the regular version just so I can help my family (as Blizzard has shown it really doesn't want or know how to balance paladins...not like we have 51 spells and combat abilities to consolidate to balance them better. We're a burst class in WoW, that's been straitjacketed because of being bursty. So we get extra and a literally stupid power system on top of severe constraints on mana to curtail that burst. PLUS, l-o-n-g GCDs to the point of craziness and zero resistance to any school of magic on top of it all. In short, we're too good, nerf the class into the ground, instead. #1 class [most played] in WoW treated in this fashion. Don't like the class why on earth did they even include it, especially Holy paladins???).
It's the content I care about, and that content is what I buy. But the moment something standard in the game is offered for a price, that's when it'll be addressed.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
lol?
"Personal value system"? Are you kidding me?
If anyone is going on "personal value systems" here, it's you. I'm just stating facts. My opinion, or "personal value" of it either way makes absolutely no difference. You, and others, repeatedly crying "pay wall! pay wall! pay wall!" makes absolutely no difference.
You can continuously insist an apple is really an orange all day long... It's still going to be an apple.
That's the way the retail-box + subscription model works, and has worked for over a decade.
Original Game Game and Retail Expansions = One-Time Purchase
Access to the Service for the game and all it entails (including intermittent content updates) = on-going subscription.
That's it. You can spin it any way you want, as much as you want. You can chant "pay wall!" 'til your fingers are sore from typing it. You'll just continue to be wrong.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
How is that different from a class unlock, which is also a one-time purchase?
2000
Iksar was exclusive to EQ's Ruins of Kunark.
2002
Inconnu, Valkyn, Sylvan exclusive to DAOC's Shrouded Isles
2003
Half-Ogre, Frostalf, Shar exclusive to DAOC's Trials of Atlantis
Paladin and Necromancer class skills sets were exclusive to UO's Age of Shadows.
2004
Ninja and Samurai skillsets in UO's Samurai Empire
Vampires in SB's Throne of Oblivion
2005
Elf race was exclusive to UO's Mondain Legacy
Empyreans exclusive to AC's Throne of Destiny
What were you basing that on?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, how dare a company seek to make money on something they spent many thousands of hours and millions of dollars to create, the bastards.
Don't like the cash shop, don't use it. Problem solved.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
For me that isn't problem solved. For me that is asking me to pay a monthly subscription and then dangling something in front of my face after I have already paid for a box copy and a monthly fee and saying "want it? give me more". It's not AS bad if they implement cash shop from the start so you know what you are getting into but to put it in later after hundreds of dollars have been spent just to have a new player able to buy their way to the top is disrespectful to the hard work and hours people have put in to their characters. Just my opinion but I think it lessens the integrity of the game.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
I don't know why you are unable to understand what I'm saying. None of those games listed offered races as an additional purchase in a cash shop. Traditionally, once you purchased the expansion for $40 or whatever, you did not have to also pay an additional $20 a to unlock a race/class separately in a cash shop.
Naw, what's next is Pay per hour AOL online style!
Every 1 hour you must pay $1. Then, it is convenient for YOU! Because YOU can play when you want and how you want! No need to spend $15 a month if you only play 10 hours a month!
We love our gamers, and this is an extension of our thanks! We want YOU to pay when YOU play, not when you don't!
(Lol this is all sarcasm of course, would be a terrible idea, but this is the kind of spit that the companies spew out.)
But yeah, spit is getting ridiculous. I think my LoL moment came when I saw that SWG charges money for skill bars. LOL...thats probably one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Would it make more sense to you if the ESO Imperial Collector's Edition was called ESO Imperial Optional Expansion?
I think you (along with others) are having a disconnect because you keep treating what's being offered in the CE part of the ESO core game. Or you somehow feel it should be part of it. It's not though and was never offered as such. It's an optional expansion for anyone who want to purchase it.
You can call it whatever you want. As I've said before, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with selling anything they want to however they want to. But usually, people do not sell an "optional expansion" that includes a race during the release of a box + sub game. Actually, I don't think it's ever happened before. And I think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable that they are trying to sell an "optional expansion" with a race included at release.
It's been done before, most recently in NWO. Menzoberranzan Renegade in the Hero of the North pack for $200. And DDO sells classes too. And the wall between sub vs cash shop fell a long time ago. Sub games have and will continue to have cash shops on the side.
If people are uncomfortable with it that's fine. It's not new and it has no impact on the game.
I keep reading people saying some variation on this point in this thread, and I think that you're talking past the OP. He's not suggesting that laws be passed to prevent it, just that it is a bad practice that we should ask to have amended or not support.
I mean, yea, they can price the thing any way that they want, but we can criticize the practice and talk about how it affects the consumer without Captain Obvious pointing it out every thread.
It's not even relevant really. Does anyone not know that ESO can use whatever pricing method they want? Has any new or useful information been revealed by your point? No.
Now, is it a practice that you, as a gamer, would be happy to have in a game that you want to play? I would venture to say that you probably wouldn't want to have to pay for content beyond the box price + subscription if you could avoid it. If you would want to pay that extra money, make that argument, but you're just stating the obvious as it is now.
NWO is a F2P game. DDO is a F2P game.