What's Next, Pay Extra to Unlock Certain Classes?

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  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 1,250
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by JJ82
    This. Guys, there is where we will be able to tell who here is either being paid to promote games or are yes men. Last week most of these very same people were talking about how F2P games nickel and dime by locking content and making you pay for it, and are now saying a company can do whatever they want as long as they don't misrepresent (which Zenimax has done since announcing the race lock). As well as for a year defended the idea a TES game should have race/faction locks for every single reason imaginable.........and are now doing the opposite for why its OK to have a way around it. Right now TESO is a sub based game with F2P aspects and you KNOW this is just the start if it works for them. There will be no reason for them to start releasing partial content and making you pay for the rest, with a subscription on top of it. No more full expansions, they will sell you part of it, make you pay AGAIN for the rest. You people are opening Pandora's box, just because its a new game and you will not like what comes of it. You are going to end up with the worst of both worlds.

     

    Never ever start a post with a fallacy. (ad hominem in this case)

    It makes everything you say much weaker, you are hurting your own credibility. And I honestly mean this positively, I want good discussions. 

    You should rely on strong arguments, that is what makes a discussion worthwhile. 

    Amazing how you didn't attempt to refute anything, yet go with an Ad hominem attempt to discredit. Did I or did I not follow up my statement with information to back up what I said? Yes I did which is proven beyond a doubt with another post now claiming that the extra $20 for the CE is "an expansion". You however did nothing but try to discredit me and not what I said.

    Perhaps you should try to actually put up an argument, and then try to make it a strong one so you can begin to take part in the discussion. BTW, I started the post with "THIS." which is a full thought, a total agreement with the post I quoted, so you didn't even get that part right.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 603
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by JJ82
    This. Guys, there is where we will be able to tell who here is either being paid to promote games or are yes men. Last week most of these very same people were talking about how F2P games nickel and dime by locking content and making you pay for it, and are now saying a company can do whatever they want as long as they don't misrepresent (which Zenimax has done since announcing the race lock). As well as for a year defended the idea a TES game should have race/faction locks for every single reason imaginable.........and are now doing the opposite for why its OK to have a way around it. Right now TESO is a sub based game with F2P aspects and you KNOW this is just the start if it works for them. There will be no reason for them to start releasing partial content and making you pay for the rest, with a subscription on top of it. No more full expansions, they will sell you part of it, make you pay AGAIN for the rest. You people are opening Pandora's box, just because its a new game and you will not like what comes of it. You are going to end up with the worst of both worlds.

     

    Never ever start a post with a fallacy. (ad hominem in this case)

    It makes everything you say much weaker, you are hurting your own credibility. And I honestly mean this positively, I want good discussions. 

    You should rely on strong arguments, that is what makes a discussion worthwhile. 

    Amazing how you didn't attempt to refute anything, yet go with an Ad hominem attempt to discredit. Did I or did I not follow up my statement with information to back up what I said? Yes I did which is proven beyond a doubt with another post now claiming that the extra $20 for the CE is "an expansion". You however did nothing but try to discredit me and not what I said.

    Perhaps you should try to actually put up an argument, and then try to make it a strong one so you can begin to take part in the discussion. BTW, I started the post with "THIS." which is a full thought, a total agreement with the post I quoted, so you didn't even get that part right.

    I actually agreed to some of what you said and than had an argument afterwards. Which you both conveniently didn't quote and ignored and then implied it wasn't there. 

    And what I said wasn't related to the post you quoted or if you agreed to it. You misunderstood me there. That is absolutely not what was wrong with the beginning of your post.

    And I only pointed it out because that beginning makes it harder for you to get your point across. Wasn't meant as an attack at all.

    Anyway, not going to descend into some meaningless back and forth, it's all good. 

    Let's address the issues at hand with arguments and without namecalling.

     

     

    As I said before,

    we will see where the trend goes and how far some devs can take it before the approach starts failing.

    If a dev takes it too far and overprices, people will vote with their wallets. Other devs will undercut them (offer better payment mehods in this case).  

    One dev overpricing is a huge opportunity to fetch his market share for an other dev.

     

    Devs will listen to missing revenue much more than to anything else.

     

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 1,250
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by JJ82 Amazing how you didn't attempt to refute anything, yet go with an Ad hominem attempt to discredit. Did I or did I not follow up my statement with information to back up what I said? Yes I did which is proven beyond a doubt with another post now claiming that the extra $20 for the CE is "an expansion". You however did nothing but try to discredit me and not what I said. Perhaps you should try to actually put up an argument, and then try to make it a strong one so you can begin to take part in the discussion. BTW, I started the post with "THIS." which is a full thought, a total agreement with the post I quoted, so you didn't even get that part right.

    I actually agreed to some of what you said and than had an argument afterwards. Which you both conveniently didn't quote and ignored and then implied it wasn't there. 

    Perhaps if you hadn't of started out with an ad mominem attack on my character acting as if the first two sentences weren't tied to the rest, the later part of your post would have been worthwhile commenting on.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 603
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Xssiv
    Let me start by saying that F2P games have the right to put pay barriers on pretty much whatever they want if they're not charging anything to play the basic game.

    I'm of the mind that any company can charge anything they want for their product and as long as they don't mis-represent their product AT THE TIME MONEY IS EXCHANGED OR THEREAFTER then that is their prerogative.

    It can be a sub based game that has a full on pay to win cash shop and also charge you every time you log in and for each character you make and charge you extra every time you level.

    However ...

    It is up to the consumer to make the decision whether or not this is worth it to them and worth their money.

    The choice is yours.

    Pretty much this.   Heck, the way people complain about companies it seems like companies can't win no matter what they do. 

    That's the nature of game business. Someone always complains. :)

     

  • rsealmanrsealman LondonMember Posts: 44
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Ghabbo
    ...  

    Coming up:  Pay when you quit the game!

    Old news, Mythic did that a few times after people had left warhammer.

    Those several billing "mistakes" were funny.

  • NildenNilden Canada, NBMember RarePosts: 2,262
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by kartool
    If you don't like the business model, don't buy the games. That is the only way they will learn. 

    I agree that's the best way to influence companies. 

    They will listen to missing revenue much more than to any angry forum posts / emails / letters. :)

    I'm not buying the game but I really don't think it will have any effect at all on future business models if millions of other people support it. How exactly are they going to even notice missing revenue?

    Then the next company comes along looks at the business model used by those before which made money and pushes the envelope even more. With more DLC, pay gates, subs fees, box price, Collector's Edition, pre-orders, pay to win and cash shops ringing out every red cent they can from anything they can possibly put a price on. Until your not so much playing a MMORPG but a customer in a virtual shopping mall.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer


  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by anemo
    You already do with expansions.

    Yeah, but when you buy an expansion you actually get the race/class. You don't have to pay extra for it.

    Please tell us that you play MMOs that do not charge for expansions and you genuinely do not know that most subscription MMOs charge for them, otherwise... wow.

    I think you misunderstood what I had intended to get across. Once you pay for the expansion in a subscription game, they traditionally have not asked you to pay an additional $20 on top of the purchase price to unlock race/classes.

    No, because you paid the additional $20 to buy the expansion. It's disenchanting that this had to be explained. 

    For all of the content it brings.

    WoW's WoD is an entire continent revamp of Outland from the past; new player models/animations/emotes; and long awaited old AV style BG...this on top of a heck of a lot of new lore.

    You pay one price for everything.

    What. A. Bargain.

    ESO, for example, they're starting out with pay upfront for an entire world that will fit in Outland, with no bug polishing.

    WoW got where it got because of 10 years of polishing the game. ESO is going to start with nothing, and we can only tell if it survives if it lasts for 2 years while all the WoW camp is playing WoW, too.

    It's still a price above and beyond a sub, which was his point. Whew...the cognitive bias is strong with this one. :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by anemo
    You already do with expansions.

    Yeah, but when you buy an expansion you actually get the race/class. You don't have to pay extra for it.

    Please tell us that you play MMOs that do not charge for expansions and you genuinely do not know that most subscription MMOs charge for them, otherwise... wow.

    I think you misunderstood what I had intended to get across. Once you pay for the expansion in a subscription game, they traditionally have not asked you to pay an additional $20 on top of the purchase price to unlock race/classes.

    No, because you paid the additional $20 to buy the expansion. It's disenchanting that this had to be explained. 

    For all of the content it brings.

    WoW's WoD is an entire continent revamp of Outland from the past; new player models/animations/emotes; and long awaited old AV style BG...this on top of a heck of a lot of new lore.

    You pay one price for everything.

    What. A. Bargain.

    ESO, for example, they're starting out with pay upfront for an entire world that will fit in Outland, with no bug polishing.

    WoW got where it got because of 10 years of polishing the game. ESO is going to start with nothing, and we can only tell if it survives if it lasts for 2 years while all the WoW camp is playing WoW, too.

    It's still a price above and beyond a sub, which was his point. Whew...the cognitive bias is strong with this one. :) 

     

    Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 603
    Originally posted by nilden
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by kartool
    If you don't like the business model, don't buy the games. That is the only way they will learn. 

    I agree that's the best way to influence companies. 

    They will listen to missing revenue much more than to any angry forum posts / emails / letters. :)

    I'm not buying the game but I really don't think it will have any effect at all on future business models if millions of other people support it. How exactly are they going to even notice missing revenue?

    Then the next company comes along looks at the business model used by those before which made money and pushes the envelope even more. With more DLC, pay gates, subs fees, box price, Collector's Edition, pre-orders, pay to win and cash shops ringing out every red cent they can from anything they can possibly put a price on. Until your not so much playing a MMORPG but a customer in a virtual shopping mall.

    Yes, in worst case you will have no effect. But with a reason.

     

    Two scenarios:

    a) many people agree with you and thus the companies WILL feel it. Win.

    b) the majority doesn't agree with you, in which case why should your minority choice have an effect in the first place? You can't force personal/minority preferences onto the majority. 

     

    Don't misunderstand me, I don't like where it's headed either. I agree in that regard. I prefer a simple sub approach, even if that was a bit higher priced than current subs. Budgets have exploded and we are seeing more market saturation soon.

     

    I am just not a fan of trying to dictate prices or applying external forces on the market. It's a slippery slope and we have a better solution in voting with our wallets.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

  • rsealmanrsealman LondonMember Posts: 44
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    They don't force you to pay for anything except box and sub anything else is optional.  They can charge you for whatever they want. You can cry about it write a patition in the end people and the way it looks a lot of people will buy it. The only slippery slope is the pure entitlement in upcoming generations.  These people who think they are entitled to everything in a VIDEO GAME for free will destroy the gaming community way before companies selling a race that had no impact on the core game.  

    You are viewing it from the wrong perspective, its not entitlement  from past or future generations.

    The whole issue is that it starts with a small pay-wall for a race that should be in game since day 1 because it's a cornerstone of the ES trilogy and players asked for it way back when the classes were announced .

    It starts with a small pay-wall and then will most likely have what everyone hates, a full F2P cash shop on top of a Box price and a subscription.

     

  • rsealmanrsealman LondonMember Posts: 44
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Ok, but what is the box price and subscription for then?

  • besteverbestever Las Vegas, NVMember UncommonPosts: 857
    I only paid 60$ for the CE on greenmangaming.com so not really a big deal. It cost me about the same as a normal game and i get some bonuses. Its really not a big deal and I can't believe what so many of you are turning this into. If they're charging 500$ for it sure but 60$ who cares.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    Originally posted by rsealman
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Ok, but what is the box price and subscription for then?

    I know man. I know.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Again it has been done just not directly.  Expansions put paywalls between class and races since the start.  

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Again it has been done just not directly.  Expansions put paywalls between class and races since the start.  

    Yes, expansions often do. They usually cost around $30 - $40 and come with a race or a class along with a huge amount of content/levels/etc. Now they are saying you need to buy the expansion for $40, and for an additional $20, you can have full access to the races.

     

    I think it's basically the methodology of it that's off putting to people. What ARE they paying that sub for anyway, right? But that doesn't make it wrong and everyone can choose to buy the game or not buy it in the end. I definitely don't think that point of view is invalid though.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTMember UncommonPosts: 4,854
    No matter what, it is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available. If you don't want to pay, don't play.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by rsealman
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Ok, but what is the box price and subscription for then?

    Really what's the box price and sub for? Oh that's right it's free to make these games, they should just hand them out for free.  These companies should spend millions of dollars creating this entertainment and turn it over to us for free.  We also expect them to continue developing this game while not charging us for anything.  Yeah that's how the world works.  Are you kidding!?

    He's not asking to play it for free. I think he actually wants to pay for the box and pay a sub for the game. I think he just doesn't like that paying those two items doesn't actually include the full game. 

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAMember UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    When?

     

    Did people buy WotLK to just play the Death Knight, hero class?

    Did people buy Cata to just play Worgens?

    Did people buy MoP to just play Pandas?

     

    HECK NO!!!

     

    If you only played F2P games and that's how you got to play XYZ classes, you're playing games wrong!

     

    If Blizzard did that  the forums would literally melt.

     

    Character classes are a perk, because in WoW, you have 50 toons to level per client...and Blizzard has a l-o-n-g time to cap out on introducing new races by then.

  • Ianb4allIanb4all liverpoolMember UncommonPosts: 77

    "we are treading on a slippery slope that simply will not end well for most gamers."

    I think you got this part of your statement  wrong Original Poster- I think it will end badly for the game itself and its developer..... There are many free to play games on the market which are ALL pretty much the same...if they tried this...they would find a very dead game...point in case-look at how well defiance is fairing- they have ruined that game themselves and aparantly there will be no new content  missions or such for the next paid dlc 3 - and ppl are up in arms about it.

     

    Defiance is doomed to fail as most ppl have moved over to the new xbox and playstation and with Destiny not far off...the writing is on the walls for over charged free mmo's!

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAMember UncommonPosts: 1,977
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    No matter what, it is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available. If you don't want to pay, don't play.

    Short of it (and a warning to all MMO devs out there): WoW is still cheaper.

     

    This is like Betamax versus VHS.

     

    Lower cost = mass appeal. Niche = having Bill Gates rescuing you instead! lol

  • DauntisDauntis Kansas City, MOMember UncommonPosts: 600

    This argument is like saying because I subscribe to cable I should get all the premium chanels and on demand movies included, or because I am enrolled in college I should get to take all the courses I want. It is the same thing, sub games should be able to offer premium items or bonuses without all the standard players getting butthurt about it. I can't afford the CE, but then again I also can't afford the optional sports package for my new vehicle, I don't expect them to give me those bonuses for free either.

    I think it is cool, I like meaningful bonuses for my money.

    Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 603
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by rsealman
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Ok, but what is the box price and subscription for then?

    Really what's the box price and sub for? Oh that's right it's free to make these games, they should just hand them out for free.  These companies should spend millions of dollars creating this entertainment and turn it over to us for free.  We also expect them to continue developing this game while not charging us for anything.  Yeah that's how the world works.  Are you kidding!?

    He's not asking to play it for free. I think he actually wants to pay for the box and pay a sub for the game. I think he just doesn't like that paying those two items doesn't actually include the full game. 

    But you do get the full game.  In most cases if you don't buy that race or class you will still be able to play the full game.  It will have no impact on your game.  Just because another player buys it doesn't mean he gets into new content. 

    Yeah, I kinda see it as a collector's edition style deal. 

    It seems the whole issue got blown way out of proportion.

     

  • rsealmanrsealman LondonMember Posts: 44
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by rsealman
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal   Yeah they're pretty much arguing semantics about what value means to them.  Fact is that we've been paying beyond a subscription to access classes/races no matter what's been tacked on.  Plenty of times that I had little interest in an expansion because I wasn't likely to max level but wanted to play a race or class that was locked out. 

    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with charging for classes/races in a sub game. It's just not what has been traditionally done and it seems a lot of people are uncomfortable with it.

    Ok, but what is the box price and subscription for then?

    Really what's the box price and sub for? Oh that's right it's free to make these games, they should just hand them out for free.  These companies should spend millions of dollars creating this entertainment and turn it over to us for free.  We also expect them to continue developing this game while not charging us for anything.  Yeah that's how the world works.  Are you kidding!?

    Did you even read and understood what I wrote before?

    I'm quite sure you didn't, but the person I asked the question did understand the meaning of it so I see no purpose whatsoever on your reply specially on the tone you did it, but it's ok.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshMember RarePosts: 6,382
    Originally posted by Dauntis
    This argument is like saying because I subscribe to cable I should get all the premium chanels and on demand movies included, or because I am enrolled in college I should get to take all the courses I want. It is the same thing, sub games should be able to offer premium items or bonuses without all the standard players getting butthurt about it. I can't afford the CE, but then again I also can't afford the optional sports package for my new vehicle, I don't expect them to give me those bonuses for free either. I think it is cool, I like meaningful bonuses for my money.

    This argument implies that you think there should be a cash shop in a subscription game so people can buy pieces of the game a la carte. A lot of people disagree with this sentiment, but they can vote with their wallets like everyone else.

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