I do see the point and I can understand it. I think this is why TSW has PVP gear that you wear when your in the PVP zone so as to allow PVE players their freedom while still creating a sense of faction when in the PVP zone.
Nah. They did it for optimization purposes. They came out and said that.
You're absolutely right about the conflict faction lock creates. The difference here is that I see it as a good thing. Players shouldn't always get what they want. My guild went Aldmeri Dominion. I wanted to be a Dunmer. I decided to look at Bosmer and decided I could play it.
All of a sudden I had to pay attention to the theme of the game. I'm an adult. I'm not a child. I have way too many other responsibilities than to worry about not being able to play a certain race. Maybe I'll play an alt, maybe I won't. The point is I saw ESO as more of a virtual world as it forced me to read up on the races and learn what the heck was going on. It wasn't just window dressing. It had a real impact on choice. Like games used to. Single player RPGs constantly have theme restrictions interwoven in game design. Why in the world of mmoRPGs that doesn't apply, I think it's laughable.
So many games make changes all for convenience or the fear that someone somewhere might not buy it because it's missing x choice.
Can we even look at MMOs today and see examples of how theme impacts game design? Does that even exist anymore? Maybe that's why some people are annoyed at this decision. I have a strong feeling that this isn't the only change they made to appeal the I want everything and I want it now crowd. Just wait...more is coming. They got boxes to sell.
Also. How come Wildstar isn't getting this sh*t about race locks? Last time I checked they have unique races attached to a faction as well.
I personally could live with faction locks in ESO and like you would just roll whatever faction my group decided to. However I'm not going to ignore the fact that there are other's who won't and would rather play alone as the faction of their choice or not all than with people they might only be lightly connected to. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it's a bad one but either way it's a fact that plays into the discussion of faction locks. I'm ambivalent either way on the whole topic personally and only mildly concerned about it from a bringing a entire group together into the game perspective. I just wanted to point out to those that don't understand the concern about faction locks why it is affecting some people.
Unlike Wildstar ESO is a established IP with a long history of single player games. People have strong preferences about what they do and do not want to play and asking them to choose between playing with a social group or playing their favorite race so that PVP has some flavor is really one of those compromises the IP had to make that is concerning to a lot of SPG fans. I have a friend who doesn't play MMO's but plays a lot of Skyrim and talking to him about ESO his big concern is what is he going to have to give up over Skyrim by playing this game made into a MMO. He has zero interest in PVP and little to no interest in the MMO aspects of the game other than small group of close friends. How does someone explain how faction locks and potentially not being able to pick whatever race you want and still play with that small group of friends is a good thing to him? I really don't know how much of ESO's player base is going to be made up by people like him vs more MMO based players but if any title can pull them in it's this one.
For Zenimax it comes down to, if you believe that most of your player base is PVP focused than the more you separate the factions the better to the point where even gear sharing between races isn't a good idea. If you believe that most of your player base will be from the single player game world new to MMO's you make the game as much like the single player game as possible. The problem Zenimax has is they are trying to walk a middle road between the two and every time they take a step one side or the other gets pissed off about something.
I guess I'm confused here. How does one not possess the ability to even understand the concept? It really doesn't matter if you believe it's a big deal or not. But to not even be able to recognize why people are annoyed? That is a whole new level of... I don't know.. complete unawareness. I'm being nice I guess.
Yeah. I too have a hard time understanding how some don't get it.
All I can think of is that it takes a certain level of "getting into" the MMO before one realizes what makes the game fun or not. The concept of faction pride and being willing to make some sacrifices for your faction - such as dropping a PvE group to go defend, or spending your gold on a siege engine - seems to be lost on some,
The more unique and different your faction is from the other sides the better. Anything - environment, architecture, music, types of mobs, races, classes, etc., emphasizes the "us vs. them" mentality that is what it's all about. Compared to DAoC this game was already a bit light due to the open spec system: the classes are not unique to an alliance... anything else that takes away from that just further dilutes the possibility of this feeling like a world.
People seem to be all over the place about what they think makes GW2 WvW feel sort of meh. I think it's two things: no differentiation of races for alliances and the inclusion of scenario PvP. Both of those things make it hard to forget that it's just a game and what you do in it doesn't matter. GW2 feels totally like a game. DAoC had more of a world feel to it. This one now is somewhere in between,
I think a big part of where you fall on this argument depends on how important you weight PVE vs PVP in this game. If you weigh PVE much more important than PVP than things like faction locks and limited guilds between factions fragments communities and makes it really hard to organize large groups of people coming into the game together. I know if I polled 100 members in my guild about preferred faction that the three factions would be pretty much equally represented based on preferred race and there are a small number of people who feel so strongly about playing a particular race that they would rather do it outside the guild than not at all. For those people offering a way to remove the faction lock even if I don't like how they went about doing it is a good thing.
Yeah. I understand what you're saying.
Like I said, this is a really old debate in ESO forums. Even among people who play both, single player ES games and MMOs, there are differences of opinion depending on whether you approach ESO as an MMO or an ES game.
The vast majority of ES leaning players have hated faction lock from day one. The vast majority of ex DAoC players who were attracted to this game liked it.
I'm coming from ES and Eve. Which means I look to a game outside the mainstream for my concept of how an "MMO" can work.
And to be perfectly honest, coming from that perspective I never really understand where "faction pride" comes from when you're shunted into a faction based on your racial pick. It feels forced to me, which diminishes my sense of connection to the faction. Others obviously differ, and I can accept that even though I don't quite understand it.
It's just an opinion but I consider putting your own personal race or faction selection above the guild/group decision as just another example of the self-centered approach to MMOs that is now the norm... and IMHO, I don't think it's a good trend.
I can respect that it's your opinion, but for me... one situation where the person puts their own interests above that of the group isn't something I'll criticize. It's a game, we're here to have fun, and if giving up both faction and race preference is too much for someone I'm not going to argue it with them. Especially if they were willing to give up one or the other, and it's just giving up *both* that they're balking at.
Note, I'm not trying to say your opinion here is wrong. I'm just trying to express my own on the matter, and I apologize if it comes across otherwise.
Next time, wait until a game gets released, so you can see for yourself that it is in accordance with your wants and expectations before you become a loyal fan.
I understand this thought process. But the problem is this was a very basic core design of the game they promoted for a very very long time. I dont follow Wildstar but its kinda like Wildstar 2 months before launch removing the color things on the ground that you have to dodge out of in combat. That is a core feature in their game so you cant remove that without it really changing the game totally. But like i have said before when other people arent happy, the devs can make the decisions they want because its their game and we as customers decide to buy or sub based on their decisions. I will still buy but put a huge damper on my excitement.
This is the reason devs don't listen to the players.....you all moan and bitch but in the end you still buy it so WHY should they put work and money in something that is more easy for them AND you will still buy it EVEN if you dont like it realy.
I talk with my money.......after this beta weekend i will decide but i won't be throwing my money at them untill the final game is out so i know what i am buying.
Faction lock, no faction lock, meh doesn't concern me either way and I still don't understand how it impacts gameplay.
And when people say stuff like "Faction pride" that's fine, if the faction still exists, then you can still have faction pride . . . it's not racial pride.
The is the exact point I've made in other posts. There are just some people, no matter how much reason and logic you throw at them, that simply can't understand a concept. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being trolled when I read posts like this, but this is a great example of what I'm talking about.
This person obviously hasn't played DAoC, and I can't exactly hold that against someone. It is a shame though, that this person refuses, or can't understand how faction lock can affect game play.
It's quite simple really, and the first point ties into the second point. Racial locks sort of allow the player, leveling from one to max, to become familiar with his or her surroundings. This includes the environment, this includes NPC's, and most importantly, a certain set of races that a player has a chance to party with.
Unlocked races allow almost all of that, though, particularly when coupled with racially-biased starting locations. The difference is that they don't *force* it.
And I guess some people need to be forced, but others (like me) respond negatively to it. So you lose some one way, and you lose some the other way.
Think of it as having a group of friends for the past ten years that you hang out with all of the time. You become familiar. Then let's say, some other group of people that you don't know comes along and tries to take your twinkies. You probably wouldn't like that, right? Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that if your friends took some of your twinkies, you'd probably not care too much? Is it not unreasonable to believe you would be a lot more pissed off at a random stranger?
I'm not friends with everyone I grew up with, so the analogy loses me a bit there. Just because I spent 10 years hanging out with them, doesn't mean I liked them enough to call them friends; some are just aquaintances, others are "people I put up with only because my friends seem to like them."
Would I side with them over a random stranger? Not the last category.
I'm curious as to how someone can't even understand the concept of faction unlock ramifications. I mean, I understand if the lore or back story isn't important to you. But, you have to be able to realize that there is a whole mess of lore that was developed regarding faction locked alliances. You have to be able to at least comprehend the idea that unlocking alliances at this point will fly directly in the face of all of that lore. That lore tells you that these alliances are largely three different races, or four with Imperials. All of the quests tell you this as well, on your way to max level. Then you get there, and you are fighting alongside all of these characters that you were told you were supposed to hate.
I played Eve, and didn't see the ramifications. At least not as heavily as is implied here.
Yes, you do get more people who just didn't care; but there was still plenty who did care, and they cared at least as deeply if not moreso. The friction between 'loyalists' and 'traitors' was almost deeper than that between two opposing loyalists, and far more nuanced. That's something you lose when you have locked factions.
Also, I have a tendency to reject ideas that I'm told I'm supposed to have. Some exceptions, but for the most part... the louder the voice telling me I have to (for example) hate someone, the more I look for reasons not to.
I guess I'm confused here. How does one not possess the ability to even understand the concept? It really doesn't matter if you believe it's a big deal or not. But to not even be able to recognize why people are annoyed? That is a whole new level of... I don't know.. complete unawareness. I'm being nice I guess.
For me: I see them as being annoyed about losing something that isn't lost. I *can* understand their annoyance; what I don't understand is why they insist it's lost, when I can actually see it even more clearly than before.
When AoC started it had a RvR server and I liked that, that's were I made my character. Of course not too long after the game launched they changed the server definition.
Its great that people have friends / guilds they join up with already but were people are getting 'the vast majority' from bewilders me since the minority of players post & read forums .. Not all players know others who also play games either
this decision like so many others says Matt Firor has no core concepts for that the game is to be . Anything goes....and the ones he expressed earlier are being abandoned before they were implemented.
This game can turn into anything....it has no foundation...no basic/fundamental shape to what it is and is not.
Right now....I cannot see myself spending my money on a game ....when I don't know what it is today...or tomorrow.
It is amazing how the main issues that cause so much argument at first, such as faction locked races, have come full circle and are again back at the centre of things.
Rather than the imperial, faction etc they did I would have preferered for pre-ordering getting extra skill lines, such as Fire for Sorcerer. Since that's not what we got I hope it's something we get in a future update and I don't mean Fire as in the Fire Rune from Mages Guild.
Fire like in Skyrim, I want to master the elements without a walking stick lol
We have to remember, there is a difference between player choices and character choices. A lot of this argument is about whether it makes sense for a character of a given race to choose to be in factions other than the one where his race is most common. But the character in ESO doesn't pick a faction, the player does. The character is magically tossed to a supposedly random location at the end of the starter zone. He also apparently doesn't remember his life prior to the start of the game. So just because it might make sense for a Dunmer raised in Morrowind with all the resulting social and cultural attachments to want to be in the Ebonheart Pact, it does not logically follow that an amnesiac Dunmer who magically ends up on Stros M'kai is going to automatically decide the locals are the enemy just because he sees dark skin and pointy ears in a mirror.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Comments
I personally could live with faction locks in ESO and like you would just roll whatever faction my group decided to. However I'm not going to ignore the fact that there are other's who won't and would rather play alone as the faction of their choice or not all than with people they might only be lightly connected to. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it's a bad one but either way it's a fact that plays into the discussion of faction locks. I'm ambivalent either way on the whole topic personally and only mildly concerned about it from a bringing a entire group together into the game perspective. I just wanted to point out to those that don't understand the concern about faction locks why it is affecting some people.
Unlike Wildstar ESO is a established IP with a long history of single player games. People have strong preferences about what they do and do not want to play and asking them to choose between playing with a social group or playing their favorite race so that PVP has some flavor is really one of those compromises the IP had to make that is concerning to a lot of SPG fans. I have a friend who doesn't play MMO's but plays a lot of Skyrim and talking to him about ESO his big concern is what is he going to have to give up over Skyrim by playing this game made into a MMO. He has zero interest in PVP and little to no interest in the MMO aspects of the game other than small group of close friends. How does someone explain how faction locks and potentially not being able to pick whatever race you want and still play with that small group of friends is a good thing to him? I really don't know how much of ESO's player base is going to be made up by people like him vs more MMO based players but if any title can pull them in it's this one.
For Zenimax it comes down to, if you believe that most of your player base is PVP focused than the more you separate the factions the better to the point where even gear sharing between races isn't a good idea. If you believe that most of your player base will be from the single player game world new to MMO's you make the game as much like the single player game as possible. The problem Zenimax has is they are trying to walk a middle road between the two and every time they take a step one side or the other gets pissed off about something.
I'm coming from ES and Eve. Which means I look to a game outside the mainstream for my concept of how an "MMO" can work.
And to be perfectly honest, coming from that perspective I never really understand where "faction pride" comes from when you're shunted into a faction based on your racial pick. It feels forced to me, which diminishes my sense of connection to the faction. Others obviously differ, and I can accept that even though I don't quite understand it.
I can respect that it's your opinion, but for me... one situation where the person puts their own interests above that of the group isn't something I'll criticize. It's a game, we're here to have fun, and if giving up both faction and race preference is too much for someone I'm not going to argue it with them. Especially if they were willing to give up one or the other, and it's just giving up *both* that they're balking at.
Note, I'm not trying to say your opinion here is wrong. I'm just trying to express my own on the matter, and I apologize if it comes across otherwise.
This is the reason devs don't listen to the players.....you all moan and bitch but in the end you still buy it so WHY should they put work and money in something that is more easy for them AND you will still buy it EVEN if you dont like it realy.
I talk with my money.......after this beta weekend i will decide but i won't be throwing my money at them untill the final game is out so i know what i am buying.
Unlocked races allow almost all of that, though, particularly when coupled with racially-biased starting locations. The difference is that they don't *force* it.
And I guess some people need to be forced, but others (like me) respond negatively to it. So you lose some one way, and you lose some the other way.
I'm not friends with everyone I grew up with, so the analogy loses me a bit there. Just because I spent 10 years hanging out with them, doesn't mean I liked them enough to call them friends; some are just aquaintances, others are "people I put up with only because my friends seem to like them."
Would I side with them over a random stranger? Not the last category.
I played Eve, and didn't see the ramifications. At least not as heavily as is implied here.
Yes, you do get more people who just didn't care; but there was still plenty who did care, and they cared at least as deeply if not moreso. The friction between 'loyalists' and 'traitors' was almost deeper than that between two opposing loyalists, and far more nuanced. That's something you lose when you have locked factions.
Also, I have a tendency to reject ideas that I'm told I'm supposed to have. Some exceptions, but for the most part... the louder the voice telling me I have to (for example) hate someone, the more I look for reasons not to.
For me: I see them as being annoyed about losing something that isn't lost. I *can* understand their annoyance; what I don't understand is why they insist it's lost, when I can actually see it even more clearly than before.
When AoC started it had a RvR server and I liked that, that's were I made my character. Of course not too long after the game launched they changed the server definition.
Its great that people have friends / guilds they join up with already but were people are getting 'the vast majority' from bewilders me since the minority of players post & read forums .. Not all players know others who also play games either
For me....
this decision like so many others says Matt Firor has no core concepts for that the game is to be . Anything goes....and the ones he expressed earlier are being abandoned before they were implemented.
This game can turn into anything....it has no foundation...no basic/fundamental shape to what it is and is not.
Right now....I cannot see myself spending my money on a game ....when I don't know what it is today...or tomorrow.
Rather than the imperial, faction etc they did I would have preferered for pre-ordering getting extra skill lines, such as Fire for Sorcerer. Since that's not what we got I hope it's something we get in a future update and I don't mean Fire as in the Fire Rune from Mages Guild.
Fire like in Skyrim, I want to master the elements without a walking stick lol
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.