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No Trinity, No Tanks, No Thanks

drkoracledrkoracle ManchesterPosts: 120Member

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

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Comments

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by drkoracle

    If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

    They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

    The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

     

    Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

    All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

    image
  • sk8chalifsk8chalif Montreal, QCPosts: 599Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by drkoracle

    If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

    They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

    The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

     

    Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

    All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

    Amen

    image
    ~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Amusingly enough, ESO's soft trinity is pretty appealing.
  • EnrifEnrif PforzheimPosts: 151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drkoracle

    If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

    They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

    The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

     

    Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

    [mod edit]

  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member

    Pretty much my feeling as well.  Having no trinity is one of the worst ideas any developer could have come up with.  And ArenaNet horribly botched it.  I'm going to give SOE the benefit of the doubt for now, however, and hope that they can find a way to make it work.  I'm skeptical, but will withhold judgment until I see more.  

    My feeling has always been that the trinity system can be improved by re-working aggro tables for mobs, making boss fights more complex, and bringing crowd control back into the mix as a viable mechanic for classes.  But eliminating the trinity altogether seems unnecessary, and truth be told, downright lazy on the part of the devs. 

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I'm going to wait and see how it plays before I decide if it's good or bad. It's going to be f2p so I risk nothing doing so.

    If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game. If it actually has some type of trinity mechanic even a soft one and it's fun, I'll continue to play and probably sub if it has the option.

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enrif
    Originally posted by drkoracle

    If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

    Part 1

    Part 2

    Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

    They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

    The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

     

    Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

    [mod edit]

    First off the trinity system isn't broken, it promoted grouping which is what MMO's were designed for, grouping. The whole idea behind people wanting to solo in an MMO is about as daft an approach to game development as a non trinity system. Sure, maybe people got tired of LFG because there wasn't a tank or healer around, but heaven forbid you actually do something besides raid the same fucking dungeon 73 times. See, back in the day you so eloquently pointed out the trinity system hails from, we actually had more to do than grind for gear. Theres a place for every style of gaming, but as far as I'm concerned, GW2 non trinity system flopped, which is why you are seeing changes in skill sets that actually lets guardians and warriors tank and healers heal. Go figure.

    image

  • RogoshRogosh MIPosts: 182Member Uncommon
    In EQN the AI is supposed to be to smart to just stand there and beat on 1 person, thanks to Story Bricks. If implemented the way they say it will , wont need a trinity but you will need people that control npcs and defend others. I for one have moved past the ESOs and wildstars and am looking forward to more non-quest hub games.

    "Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon
    Excellent topic name, well played.  And I agree.
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by drkoracle

    If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

    those are the class videos from SOE Live in Aug 2013

     

    this topic was discussed 6 months ago

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/394199/Column-EverQuest-Next-Class-Roles-Are-A-Riot.html

     

  • TineaTinea North Olmsted, OHPosts: 80Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Latronus

    Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

    All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

    Nice post and I agree completely.  Just because people believe GW2's no trinity design "failed" doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted again or built upon.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common

    Guild Wars 1 had no taunt but classes still had roles - and healers existed

    i liked the GW1 system

  • goboygogoboygo Posts: 787Member Uncommon

    This game is just clone wars zerg all over again.  There will be no opportunity to shine in system like this, GW2 was the same way, everyone was "equal" in a dungeon and did the same thing as the next guy.

    Boring.

    "Fighting Internet stupidity one post at at time"
  • MavolenceMavolence Appleton, WIPosts: 612Member Uncommon
    Not this shit again. This site has just devolved into a horrid landfill with both moderators and posters. I don't really have the motivation to post the same broken record shit in forums anymore but i'll just say that i can't be happier that the traditional restriction to classes not being able to dual/multi class or cross train is over. I would rather have my freedom than be restricted to playing a class only like everyone else and the way i'm told.
  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYPosts: 1,114Member Uncommon

    It's the old one-two punch. A developer announces an MMO with the holy trinity, and you get people whining that the game doesn't break new ground. Another developer announces a game that ditches the holy trinity, and you get the other half whining that the game doesn't stay on the beaten path.

    No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

    image

  • TarbloodTarblood Kirkland, WAPosts: 62Member
    Originally posted by Omali

    It's the old one-two punch. A developer announces an MMO with the holy trinity, and you get people whining that the game doesn't break new ground. Another developer announces a game that ditches the holy trinity, and you get the other half whining that the game doesn't stay on the beaten path.

    No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

    A.

    Fudgen.

    Men.

     

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    I'm going to wait and see how it plays before I decide if it's good or bad. It's going to be f2p so I risk nothing doing so.

    If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game. If it actually has some type of trinity mechanic even a soft one and it's fun, I'll continue to play and probably sub if it has the option.

    Pretty much how I feel about it.

    Wait and see.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Enrif
    Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

    If you cant get this in your brain your not ready for the next Gen of MMOs and can stay with the old stuff done the last 15 years.

    They also said long ago the characters wouldn't look like they do now, too.

     

    The thing is this is an established MMO and changing it's formula mid-stream isn't going to sell well for those who played EQ and EQII. That's their fanbase.

     

    So this will ensure those in EQ and EQII will remain where they are, since the concept is too foreign.

     

    I remember mentoring some EQ players in EQII, they couldn't even get past level 15 content before running back to EQ again. Play a game so long, they won't move away from what they know and like. EQN is made for those who never played EQ or EQII, and the WoW players are getting substantial new goodies in WoD to want to move.

     

    An updated EQII would've been nice. :'(

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,655Member Uncommon

    Really can't wrap my head around why people don't understand what they are doing. They haven't been to clear and the details are a bit scattered, but still it is fairly obvious.

    There are more options then just Trinity (EQ/WoW) and Zerg DPS (GW2). I'm not sure if people just have lack of experience or what, but take any mmorpg with PVP and look at how it runs.

    There are still clearly defined roles that work perfectly without taunt, threat meters, and other hand-holding features while still enforcing teamwork, communication, and strategy.

    Sure there are situations in any game where DPS is the quickest and easiest route, but unless that is how the game was designed (GW2), it shouldn't be the norm.

    If you add in any sort of reactive-"smart" AI or mechanics that throw curve balls, a rounded team is needed. Maybe you don't need a "dedicated" healer every single encounter, doesn't mean they are garbage. With 40+ classes, they have endless possibilities on how to get creative with content.

    They don't flat out give details, but they've also mentioned that you can "try" anything, doesn't mean you will succeed, at least not easily. Unlike EQ/WoW, if you didn't show up with XYZ, don't show up at all.

    While we have very little context to go by and just a few details, there is nothing to draw the conclusion that EQN = GW2 or mindless DPS zerging.

    GW2 class system is nothing like EQN's. The AI system won't be the same. Combat system won't be the same. Etc. Etc.

    I'm sorry that some people have to rely on crappy mechanics like taunt and "dedicated" whatever, but it is a outdated system that many are more than happy to be rid of.

    If you can't see the potential and think outside the box of a very few ways that games have done it in the past, that's too bad.

    They aren't trying to make EQ3 or GW3 or copy what has been done before. If you can't handle it, oh well, your loss.

    Pantheon is dedicated to those stuck in the past and looking at the KS, that doesn't seem to be as many willing to throw money at the game as there are stomping their feet on every new game to be announced. You asked for it, there ya go.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Omali

    No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

    ^ That sums it up.

     

    Gamers are so self-centered nowadays. They want every game to be designed for "them".

     

    There are other people out there who have differing opinions/likes. Let them have their cake too.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,852Member Uncommon
    What if I told you there was still a tank. What is a tank? Keeps mobs from pounding the squishy ones right? If you look at the videos of the warrior abilities it looks like abilities that indeed would physically keep mobs away from others. Far better than a taunt mechanic, one that won't work on the mob AI SoE has Storybricks working on.

    I'd look more toward MOBA mechanics translated to an MMO than GW2.
  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,655Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    What if I told you there was still a tank. What is a tank? Keeps mobs from pounding the squishy ones right? If you look at the videos of the warrior abilities it looks like abilities that indeed would physically keep mobs away from others. Far better than a taunt mechanic, one that won't work on the mob AI SoE has Storybricks working on.

    I'd look more toward MOBA mechanics translated to an MMO than GW2.

    It's much easier to pull out a phrase, out of context, and make a bunch of assumptions based on it =)

    Seems some lack imagination and simply see Tank = Taunt, the end.

  • marganculosmarganculos BrnoPosts: 192Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by DamonVile
    ...

    If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game.
    ...


    +1
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Nadia

    Guild Wars 1 had no taunt but classes still had roles - and healers existed

    i liked the GW1 system

     

    Yep. And GW1 worked both with dedicated healers and without them in groups.  No dedicated healers? Take a few self survival skills.  Harder content?  Get someone to load up on specialised healing.

    Mobs weren't tanked through boring taunts forcing mobs to magically face them, you had to use positioning and CC to get mobs to attack the more defensive players or to spread out the damage.

    GW2 was a massive step backwards, but GW1 already proved that you can have amazing combat without the trinity.

     

    Also as another poster mentioned, EQN was stated to have more of a MOBA feel.  MOBAs have support classes with heals, and I could see it working well in a MMO.

     

    Honestly the thing holding games back are tanks.  Magical taunts that force mobs to face someone are dumb and need to die in a fire.  If the death of the trinity just means no more magical taunt tanks then good riddance.

     

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,655Member Uncommon

    I'm starting to think that many of these "trinity or else" fans played EQ for a short time, maybe EQ2, WoW for way too long, and then GW2 for a stint.

    There have been so many games in the last 15 years that have mixed it up in one way or another that to have such tunnel vision can only be explained by lack of experience or unwillingness to experience anything new.

     

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