I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
Hope they do for those who enjoy it. Instead of the treadmill combat of the Trinity
What is wrong with innovating and coming up with something new that may include some elements of the GW2 combat style. I don't really see a need to clone it.
Which is not what you said. What you said leaves out innovating it. Innovating it would be cloning it to the masses....meaning they would think of it this way
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
Hope they do for those who enjoy it. Instead of the treadmill combat of the Trinity
What is wrong with innovating and coming up with something new that may include some elements of the GW2 combat style. I don't really see a need to clone it.
Which is not what you said. What you said leaves out innovating it. Innovating it would be cloning it to the masses....meaning they would think of it this way
I was discussing what I hope they don't do. I didn't discuss what they should do at all in the original statement. You are the one that brought up what you want them to do and why, and you said that you want them to clone it. That you said that is on you not me. I simply responded that innovating would be better than what you offered as to what they should do.
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by Kyllien I for one am glad that they are going this direction.What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
Basketball is PvP.
If Basketball was PvE, you'd have people bitching about the opposing guards even being in the game. (Also, it would be all about scoring X points in Y minutes before you could move on to the next stage where they raise the basket and increase the value of X. But they give you better shoes if you make it.)
How about playing WoW to understand the game instead of making assumptions (especially since you trust no one)?
Oh, I trust everyone - to speak to their own interests. It's when they try to speak on behalf of those who stand against their interests that I get skeptical.
As to your challenge... sorry, this argument isn't worth the price of rebuying a game I never liked, plus spending the sub fees (and time) for however long it takes to reaquaint myself with whatever state it's in today. Perhaps if you were willing to pay for me to do so (plus reimbursement for my time at whatever your local minimum wage is) I'd reconsider, but I think it highly unlikely you'd take me up on that.
Besides, I'm as close to certain as I get that I wouldn't see it the way you do. There's only ever been one thing we did see the same way, and that was on a topic outside the gaming environment.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
Why would you want to actually be challenged? You've got me on that.
Not to say that keeping 40 people alive isn't difficult, but as the devs have said, whack a mole was fun when I was a kid.
Healing/Support can have so much more too it then simply keeping HP bars full.
Do what else? Be a Jack of All Trades, master of none?
Or can a player actually heal?
It's the chickens coming home to roost. Put too much emphasis on one aspect of game play, there's consequences. Meanwhile, those who enjoy tanking and healing are told to play something else, when the problem isn't their preference...it's the over emphasis on damage dealing itself.
Devs lead by design. When the design is one way, consequences evolve and now we're in this pickle of trying to fix a problem that shouldn't even exist, if it was balanced in the first place.
As to your challenge... sorry, this argument isn't worth the price of rebuying a game I never liked, plus spending the sub fees (and time) for however long it takes to reaquaint myself with whatever state it's in today.
Someone, in passing, told me one day, "How can you judge a game that you never played?".
He was right.
Thus, I play WoW so I can truthfully judge what it offers and what it doesn't offer, from actually playing the game.
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
GW1 AI was meant to be similar to PvP. Anet put it into GW2 in one of the beta-weekend and promptly removed it afterward because of QQing. Hopefully, SOE will not cave to the mass who cannot stand that monsters are avoiding their precious AOEs. GW1 AI is pretty good (better than a lot of players even with the henchmens/heroes), but it could be even better (pathing sort of sucks, monster objective is kill-in-sight only, etc).
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by evilized Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
I don't want to be an ass, but your post indicate that you have no idea what a zerg is. In any games, a zerg will win if there is enough players, trinity or no trinty. A zerg is the concept of overwhelming the opponent with greater numbers so you do not have to use a complex strategy. The term come from Starcraft: the Zerg race used cheap units in overwhelming numbers (aka a Zerg swarm). FFXIV has zergs for its FATEs, if you want a trinity based game example (you have the spam heals on the tanks for the boss ones). They are as easy and boring as GW2, if not more.
Zerg forming themselves has nothing to do with the combat system, it has everything to do with ease of access to content and rewards. Except Cursed Shore, Queensdale, World Bosses and where ever the current Living Story stuff is there are no zergs in GW2.
OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
Basketball is PvP. I said PvP BALANCEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE << read
If Basketball was PvE, you'd have people bitching about the opposing guards even being in the game. (Also, it would be all about scoring X points in Y minutes before you could move on to the next stage where they raise the basket and increase the value of X. But they give you better shoes if you make it.)
Originally posted by evilized Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
I don't want to be an ass, but your post indicate that you have no idea what a zerg is. In any games, a zerg will win if there is enough players, trinity or no trinty. A zerg is the concept of overwhelming the opponent with greater numbers so you do not have to use a complex strategy. The term come from Starcraft: the Zerg race used cheap units in overwhelming numbers (aka a Zerg swarm). FFXIV has zergs for its FATEs, if you want a trinity based game example (you have the spam heals on the tanks for the boss ones). They are as easy and boring as GW2, if not more.
Zerg forming themselves has nothing to do with the combat system, it has everything to do with ease of access to content and rewards. Except Cursed Shore, Queensdale, World Bosses and where ever the current Living Story stuff is there are no zergs in GW2.
Sorry,, you need to keep up with definitions of slang language as it's being used.. In the beginning it was "outnumbering" mobs as you discribed.. but it has evolved into just "overpower" the enemy with little or no regard to strategy or skill.. This is very similar to blitz'ing a mob as well.. When five level 80's run into a newbie zone and kill off 10 mobs with one shot.. That is zerging as well.. FYI.. Keep up..
Originally posted by evilized Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
I don't want to be an ass, but your post indicate that you have no idea what a zerg is. In any games, a zerg will win if there is enough players, trinity or no trinty. A zerg is the concept of overwhelming the opponent with greater numbers so you do not have to use a complex strategy. The term come from Starcraft: the Zerg race used cheap units in overwhelming numbers (aka a Zerg swarm). FFXIV has zergs for its FATEs, if you want a trinity based game example (you have the spam heals on the tanks for the boss ones). They are as easy and boring as GW2, if not more.
Zerg forming themselves has nothing to do with the combat system, it has everything to do with ease of access to content and rewards. Except Cursed Shore, Queensdale, World Bosses and where ever the current Living Story stuff is there are no zergs in GW2.
Sorry,, you need to keep up with definitions of slang language as it's being used.. In the beginning it was "outnumbering" mobs as you discribed.. but it has evolved into just "overpower" the enemy with little or no regard to strategy or skill.. This is very similar to blitz'ing a mob as well.. When five level 80's run into a newbie zone and kill off 10 mobs with one shot.. That is zerging as well.. FYI.. Keep up..
I do no know a single GW2 players that use the term zerg for 5 level 80s easily destroying mobs in the lower level zones. When someone talk about the zerg in GW2 it is ALWAYS about the large group of players. When somebody ask about "where is the zerg" on map chat, they are not asking about a random group of 5 players destroying normal mobs by over-leveling them, they are asking about the big group farming events.
You are the first person I've seen to use zerg to mean overpowering regardless of group size and level. I have never seen it used that way until that green post of yours. Nor are the slang dictionaries/wikies updated with your "homemade" definition. Also, it make your comment that "it's impossible in EQ" even more bizarre...
Although, I'm not surprised that some people are using the term inappropriately. If there is one thing MMORPG.com taught me is that people here tend to make their own definitions because they are too stupid to use the one in the dictionary/wiki.
If your problem in GW2 is actually that content is trivial, well mention it. If your problem is that GW2 has too many large groups of players doing content together (the zergs) that is what you should be commenting on. Do not start to use zerg to mean trivial content regardless of group size, that just confuse people.
Originally posted by evilized Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
I don't want to be an ass, but your post indicate that you have no idea what a zerg is. In any games, a zerg will win if there is enough players, trinity or no trinty. A zerg is the concept of overwhelming the opponent with greater numbers so you do not have to use a complex strategy. The term come from Starcraft: the Zerg race used cheap units in overwhelming numbers (aka a Zerg swarm). FFXIV has zergs for its FATEs, if you want a trinity based game example (you have the spam heals on the tanks for the boss ones). They are as easy and boring as GW2, if not more.
Zerg forming themselves has nothing to do with the combat system, it has everything to do with ease of access to content and rewards. Except Cursed Shore, Queensdale, World Bosses and where ever the current Living Story stuff is there are no zergs in GW2.
Sorry,, you need to keep up with definitions of slang language as it's being used.. In the beginning it was "outnumbering" mobs as you discribed.. but it has evolved into just "overpower" the enemy with little or no regard to strategy or skill.. This is very similar to blitz'ing a mob as well.. When five level 80's run into a newbie zone and kill off 10 mobs with one shot.. That is zerging as well.. FYI.. Keep up..
I do no know a single GW2 players that use the term zerg for 5 level 80s easily destroying mobs in the lower level zones. When someone talk about the zerg in GW2 it is ALWAYS about the large group of players. When somebody ask about "where is the zerg" on map chat, they are not asking about a random group of 5 players destroying normal mobs by over-leveling them, they are asking about the big group farming events.
You are the first person I've seen to use zerg to mean overpowering regardless of group size and level. I have never seen it used that way until that green post of yours. Nor are the slang dictionaries/wikies updated with your "homemade" definition. Also, it make your comment that "it's impossible in EQ" even more bizarre...
Although, I'm not surprised that some people are using the term inappropriately. If there is one thing MMORPG.com taught me is that people here tend to make their own definitions because they are too stupid to use the one in the dictionary/wiki.
If your problem in GW2 is actually that content is trivial, well mention it. If your problem is that GW2 has too many large groups of players doing content together (the zergs) that is what you should be commenting on. Do not start to use zerg to mean trivial content regardless of group size, that just confuse people.
Nope... I been playing GW2 since beta and it has been talked a lot all over their forums of the Zerg style game from WvW to dungeons. Zerging also means mindless play style. Where you run from point to point with little need to talk as a team to how you will get over said problem. Doing dungeons in GW2 was a total Zerg play style. Often not even needing to stop to kil trash, just running from boss to boss.
EDIT: This has a lot to do with there being no Trinity model. The "Soft Trinity" as they call it has lead to teaming being mind numbing.
Originally posted by evilized Originally posted by timidobserver Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by Kyllien
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
Since you are trying to discredit me by questioning my "credentials" I played EQ1 from '99 until the luclin expansion which ruined the game. I would also ask when exactly i said anything about zerging content down in original EQ? You certainly could but most people were very concerned with KSing. As for "hyping the sizzle of an unknown steak" (really...?) How about you take a look at story bricks and so some reading. A little research and you would know EXACTLY what SOE is doing with the AI.
** I just thought I would add that you are indeed using the term zerg incorrectly. What you are thinking of is generally described as "faceroll," as in you roll your face across the keyboard and still win. At this point I'm pretty certain you are just trolling so unless you can manage to post something truly breathtaking in its stupidity or you are actually willing to listen to others I'm done talking to you.
Sorry,, you need to keep up with definitions of slang language as it's being used.. In the beginning it was "outnumbering" mobs as you discribed.. but it has evolved into just "overpower" the enemy with little or no regard to strategy or skill.. This is very similar to blitz'ing a mob as well.. When five level 80's run into a newbie zone and kill off 10 mobs with one shot.. That is zerging as well.. FYI.. Keep up..
This is pretty much the source of so many discussion issues. People assume their definition is "the" definition and things go downhill from there.
Especially buzzwords (PVP, PVE, Zerg, Sandbox, Grind, Hardcore, Casual, etc). They all might have a general definition, but depending on who you ask, they can go off in some fun places.
If people either can't agree or at least state what the heck they are talking about before hand, we all go off on tangents to no where because the other person doesn't even know what the conversation is about.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
Why would you want to actually be challenged? You've got me on that.
Not to say that keeping 40 people alive isn't difficult, but as the devs have said, whack a mole was fun when I was a kid.
Healing/Support can have so much more too it then simply keeping HP bars full.
Do what else? Be a Jack of All Trades, master of none?
Or can a player actually heal?
Have you played any games besides WoW? It isn't the only way to do things.
"Healers" aka Support can do so much more then just spam heals while staring at health bars. It isn't either be a heal bot or be a "jack of all trades."
Even Preists and other healing classes in WoW have a fairly large tool belt to work with, but most high end encounters revolve around only a few abilities with maybe one unique ability for gimmick fights.
If you want to just stand in the back and stare at HP bars and have the satisfaction of keeping them full, I have no issue with that. Myself, I would much rather have an active role where I'm debuffing, buffing, cleansing, throwing proactive hots/shields, CCing, tossing out some DPS when I can, etc.
I'm a huge fan of fluff abilities (SOW, levitate, shrink/grow, freefall, etc) and love buffs, but I think long duration takes away from a class/role. Instead of buffing everyone for 15 minutes before a fight, have it be a more min to min decision, do I give this guy a haste or this other guy a dmg buff, it can all still be a micro-management adrenaline rush if that is what is being chased after, but it bring an extra depth to a healing/support role instead of heal heal heal heal.
Not to say that isn't possible in WoW, but with a strong reliance on the trinity, usually a class/role gets narrowed down to it's most simplistic version in high end content. All the "fun" stuff is left for soloing or small group stuff. Which again is fine, but I would rather play a game where all classes have a lot of tools and uses all the time.
I'm assuming if someone only wants to heal in EQN, they'll be able to in some way, but I think that missing out on what they are going for. Same for those that will only play 1 class. That is great, I hope they excel at it. Me on the other hand, will be getting them all and trying to master everything. I like variety and mixing it up, doing the same thing forever gets boring, especially when the content is static as well.
It is possible to play the same role and get the same satisfaction as a WoW healer in more active combat type games. You just have to approach it differently. With 40+ classes though, I'm assuming a few will be fairly familiar.
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.
Starting to feel like a broken record? Then stop repeating information that is irrelevant to what others are saying. Combat that is quite similar is a big turn off to me, regardless of how they do AI. That is pretty much what I've been saying.
I like GW2, but I am not one of the fan boys running around acting like every MMO should be like GW2.
I can go for something that takes the good elements of GW2 combat and combines it with other elements in order to make something better, but I don't want combat that is "quite similar" to GW2. PVE combat utterly sucks in GW2. It took them more than a year to release challenging PVE content(the wurms.)
I also want more combat options. I hate the way the weapon skills only have 1 setup without any ability to swap things in and out. If you are using a Greatsword, you'll be using the exact same weapon skills at launch that you'll be using a year and a half later. That is lame.
SPVP and WvW are the only things that keep me playing. Berserker Gear Facerolling through their casual friendly PVE dungeons is lame, and no game should copy that.
Why do people think the Trinity is 'old and outdated?'
Do you guys think oxygen is old and outdated?
Just because something has been around a while, doesn't mean it needs changed. Sometimes, the 'horrible terrible old and outdated thing' is actually a staple of that exact same thing.
Next you'll say you want pancakes that doesn't use eggs, because eggs are... you know... So old outdated and passe.
The problem with the old trinity system (heal, taunt tank, dps) is that it is very predictable, and not really suited to use against some more advanced combat AI.
Can you please explain this to me, because I hear this line thrown out a lot?
How exactly does more advanced AI have trouble with the Trinity? If its more advanced shouldnt it be able to judge for itself what the biggest threat is? As it is now a well balanced Trinity dungeon with "old" AI, the players just cant spam heal or spike DPS, they have to work into it gradually.
How is everyone doing the same thing (a'la GW2) means you can have more advanced AI. Its an oxymoron statement..."We can make a advanced AI because the combat is now simplified", huh?
Im serious, someone please explain to me how exactly it means more advanced AI as compared to the Trinity, cause I just dont see, or believe it.
Because the trintity system with the taunt eleminates any AI requirement, and you can just add some scripted variations(in which you break up the trinity for a certain time in most cases).
That is an oxymoron statement, because the AI actually has to think about which is the biggest threat- the healer healing everyone, or the tank keeping its attention (and doing CC), or the DPS doing damage.
Ohh and before we get to far you need to know, scripts are AI, and the proper word to use is AI-scripts. There is no such thing as AI without scripts. That is unless Cyberdyne Systems has finally released that thinking computer chip.
You don't have the holy trinity in any pvp game, because players can't be taunted, and/or it would be ridiculous silly and not a lot of fun.
Some of the best PvP games have the Trinity. WAR handled the PvE taunt best in PvP, it would break target lock, so that they would have to reselect the target.
Why do you think a lot of people avoid pve, avoid raids? Because they are predictable and in the long run not challenging.. if you have beat one encounter, if you have a strategy against that any difficultiy is gone.. and therefore it is not really challenging for a lot of people.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Why do people think the Trinity is 'old and outdated?'
Do you guys think oxygen is old and outdated?
Just because something has been around a while, doesn't mean it needs changed. Sometimes, the 'horrible terrible old and outdated thing' is actually a staple of that exact same thing.
Next you'll say you want pancakes that doesn't use eggs, because eggs are... you know... So old outdated and passe.
The problem with the old trinity system (heal, taunt tank, dps) is that it is very predictable, and not really suited to use against some more advanced combat AI.
Can you please explain this to me, because I hear this line thrown out a lot?
How exactly does more advanced AI have trouble with the Trinity? If its more advanced shouldnt it be able to judge for itself what the biggest threat is? As it is now a well balanced Trinity dungeon with "old" AI, the players just cant spam heal or spike DPS, they have to work into it gradually.
It is not so much that the AI does have trouble, it is much more that there is no room for more advanced AI.
With the classic Trinity setup, with classic Taunt, you, or better the player expect a certain behavoir. Like Mobs shall attack the Tank which used Taunt, or the one with most Aggrometer. The reason it was used is because of restricted AI, more exactly rather simple scripted AI, with other words something like that "IF event X happens do event Z, IF aggro reachs a certain amount do X", and that applies to all Mobs. Now if the KI reacts differently, if it would react with more accessable behaivors to more Player Actions, it would not behaive like in the classic Trinity setup. With that said, this does not mean that there can't different roles.. there can be healers, CCler, DPSler, Tanks and all kind of roles, just the classic taunt could not be available, or that a Tank can actually Tank all Mobs.. this role(Tank) have to evolve to enalbe more advanced AI
How is everyone doing the same thing (a'la GW2) means you can have more advanced AI. Its an oxymoron statement..."We can make a advanced AI because the combat is now simplified", huh?
Im serious, someone please explain to me how exactly it means more advanced AI as compared to the Trinity, cause I just dont see, or believe it.
Read above. And noone talks about simplified combat, less roles or GW2. The devs compared it more with MOBAs.. you do have a lot of roles, more than 3, in MOBAs there are advanced combat tactics, group setups and group behaivor, but no "taunt", not classic holy trinity. GW2 combat is as dumb as any other combat before and uses as any other MMO combat simple scripting. You really can't use GW2 as a example, and noones argues that a non trinity system should be like GW2.. because GW2 really sucks.
Because the trintity system with the taunt eleminates any AI requirement, and you can just add some scripted variations(in which you break up the trinity for a certain time in most cases).
That is an oxymoron statement, because the AI actually has to think about which is the biggest threat- the healer healing everyone, or the tank keeping its attention (and doing CC), or the DPS doing damage.
Ohh and before we get to far you need to know, scripts are AI, and the proper word to use is AI-scripts. There is no such thing as AI without scripts. That is unless Cyberdyne Systems has finally released that thinking computer chip.
I described the simple scripts above and how restrictive a trinity system is. Now think about a system, where every single Mob does have his own behaivor, and yes this behaivor will come down to a bunch of scripts how he will react to different events, and some kind of communication, or better solution finding process between different mobs in a group.. group behaivors.
A little example to get a better picture, how it could look and work.
Lets you and your group enter a Dungeon and you met some goblins.
Goblin A detect you as enemy and blindly attacks the first nearest enemy(he would work as we are used to)
Goblin B (maybe a some kind of captain commands another Goblin(lets say Goblin C) deeper into the dungeon to warn his tribe(and that goblin tribe could be just one inhabitant of that dungeon, with minor wars or conflicts with other groups in there, and with different targets).
Furthermore he commands the other Goblins around to follow him and attack the enemy as a group. (Just Goblin D and E is available, as C was commanded back to his tribe and A attacked already blindly)
And so on and so forth.. but you get the picture.. every mob does have his own agenda(scripts), mob groups make decisions on different patterns(like a commanding mob), some may follow those commandos other not, other may do anything close to it, depending on their own behaivor.
And how would that fit in a system where every mob have to attack X because he has the most aggro or because he used taunt.. it would destroy everything.. and therefore i said more advanced AI does not fit in with the old trinity system design for and with simple AI.
You don't have the holy trinity in any pvp game, because players can't be taunted, and/or it would be ridiculous silly and not a lot of fun.
Some of the best PvP games have the Trinity. WAR handled the PvE taunt best in PvP, it would break target lock, so that they would have to reselect the target.
Point is, you can use such mechanismn like WAR used for PvP.. but that is not exactly the old holy trinity behaivor. You and mobs can have abilities to distract targets, to bind them for some time and all different stuff, as they are also exist in MOBAs, like DoTA2(and here as example the hero Axe). But again, that is not the holy trinity we talked about, the holy trinity SOE would like to avoid.. they never said that there will not different roles.. even more they exactly said that there will be different roles.
Why do you think a lot of people avoid pve, avoid raids? Because they are predictable and in the long run not challenging.. if you have beat one encounter, if you have a strategy against that any difficultiy is gone.. and therefore it is not really challenging for a lot of people.
my comments in green.
By the way.. there was a another old thread about that exact topic(shortly after the presantation of EQN) and in there are similar examples, quotes from devs, and so on. And as much as i can remember even a link to an interesting article about storybricks(which will be used in EQN, and will handle the combat and the different behaivor of mobs). There you could look for further and even more detailed information. Googling for storybricks or AI could help, too.. if you are really interested in this topic.
I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.
People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).
I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.
People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).
I think many fall into the mindset that if it hasn't been done before or was done poorly, then it can't be done. Which I can understand, I try not to blindly believe in things, but I totally get where SB and SOE are going, just hope it turns out as great as it sounds.
One quote that I hope isn't just hype to the 10th power is "It’s not that we are doing a better emergent AI than the other MMO. Other MMOs do not have any AI to speak of!" That is a pretty huge statement.
Hopefully EQN, Landmark and whatever SWG-like game they are making take MMOs into uncharted territory. As seen with ESO, Wildstar, and several other WIP, other companies are still trying to churn out the same old things with a fresh coat of paint. We need a shift in the genre into something else. EQN should be a good start.
I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.
People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).
I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.
However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system.
Comments
Which is not what you said. What you said leaves out innovating it. Innovating it would be cloning it to the masses....meaning they would think of it this way
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I was discussing what I hope they don't do. I didn't discuss what they should do at all in the original statement. You are the one that brought up what you want them to do and why, and you said that you want them to clone it. That you said that is on you not me. I simply responded that innovating would be better than what you offered as to what they should do.
I for one am glad that they are going this direction.
What do you do if an encounter needs two tanks to control MOB pathing?
What do you do if you need two healers to deal with the hard hitting mobs?
What do you do if you need more ranged then melee?
What do you do if there doesn't happed to be any tanks, healers or ranged DPS available? Well with this model you respec to adjust your party mechanics and take on the encounter.
Will there be encouters where swarm DPS will be the key? Of course, in fact with a big enough party of DPS you will be able to kill many mobs before they can do to much damage. If you find your self in this situation maybe you need to move to more difficult mobs
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
I've gotta agree with this.
The trinity is fun, because it's easy. It requires minimal thought, and allows players to just hop in and feel badass without trying. I get it. However, in any sort of practical setting it makes no sense. It has players forcing enemies to behave in unnatural ways to make encounters more simplistic & manageable.
However, this hardly means that it's the only way to make a game. For a time, it was easier for the developers to just throw in taunt mechanics and call it a day. Now, there are countless examples from other games of ways to have group play that don't revolve around a set trinity. MOBAs are a great example of this, though they aren't the only ones. People also love to poke fun at GW2, but most people overlook the fact that for a game with no trinity, it worked surprisingly well. Every class was able to complete the content, provided people used their brain. You can still beat all the dungeons w/ 5 thieves, 5 rangers, 5 engies, etc. Certain class combos (zerker warriors) became optimal for speed clears, yes. But that is a biproduct of elitism within games, not necessarily flawed game design. Even in the more balanced games you have this problem, where players will stick to 1 combination of skills / classes / abilities they deem 'best' and expect everyone else to do the same.
Well, I agree with the idea that innovating past the Trinity system is a good thing, as long as it is done correctly, but I disagree with your point. You seem to be implying that trinity games are easier and require less thought and effort than none trinity games.
I have 5 80s on GW2, and I have been through the majority of the content. GW2 is by far the easiest MMO I have ever played. I like the game, but it isn't some how more difficult than any other trinity game.There is very little GW2 content that equals the difficulty of high-end raid content that exists many other MMOs. The newly added Wurm bosses are the only content that can be said that equal raid content in terms of difficulty, and that was just added some year and a few months after launch. The rest of the PVE in the game is extremely easy.
I don't even do PVE at all anymore because of how much of an advantage certain professions have and how zerker gear is required. GW2 PVE is all zerker gear and faceroll dpsing on warriors. The game punishes variety in build and playstyle. PVE is built to be very easy and casual friendly. You say that this happens in plenty of games, but I know of no popular MMO where 100% of the PVE content is 100% easier and quicker with X class composition. That includes SWTOR, LOTRO, WoW, Neverwinter,DF, and any other MMO you want to mention. I pretty much only SPVP or WvW until EQN or some other decent MMO comes out.
Hopefully EQN takes what GW2 has done and improves it significantly rather than just settling for the bar they have set..
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
Basketball is PvP.
If Basketball was PvE, you'd have people bitching about the opposing guards even being in the game. (Also, it would be all about scoring X points in Y minutes before you could move on to the next stage where they raise the basket and increase the value of X. But they give you better shoes if you make it.)
Oh, I trust everyone - to speak to their own interests. It's when they try to speak on behalf of those who stand against their interests that I get skeptical.
As to your challenge... sorry, this argument isn't worth the price of rebuying a game I never liked, plus spending the sub fees (and time) for however long it takes to reaquaint myself with whatever state it's in today. Perhaps if you were willing to pay for me to do so (plus reimbursement for my time at whatever your local minimum wage is) I'd reconsider, but I think it highly unlikely you'd take me up on that.
Besides, I'm as close to certain as I get that I wouldn't see it the way you do. There's only ever been one thing we did see the same way, and that was on a topic outside the gaming environment.
Do what else? Be a Jack of All Trades, master of none?
Or can a player actually heal?
It's the chickens coming home to roost. Put too much emphasis on one aspect of game play, there's consequences. Meanwhile, those who enjoy tanking and healing are told to play something else, when the problem isn't their preference...it's the over emphasis on damage dealing itself.
Devs lead by design. When the design is one way, consequences evolve and now we're in this pickle of trying to fix a problem that shouldn't even exist, if it was balanced in the first place.
That's the issue.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Someone, in passing, told me one day, "How can you judge a game that you never played?".
He was right.
Thus, I play WoW so I can truthfully judge what it offers and what it doesn't offer, from actually playing the game.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
GW1 AI was meant to be similar to PvP. Anet put it into GW2 in one of the beta-weekend and promptly removed it afterward because of QQing. Hopefully, SOE will not cave to the mass who cannot stand that monsters are avoiding their precious AOEs. GW1 AI is pretty good (better than a lot of players even with the henchmens/heroes), but it could be even better (pathing sort of sucks, monster objective is kill-in-sight only, etc).
I don't want to be an ass, but your post indicate that you have no idea what a zerg is. In any games, a zerg will win if there is enough players, trinity or no trinty. A zerg is the concept of overwhelming the opponent with greater numbers so you do not have to use a complex strategy. The term come from Starcraft: the Zerg race used cheap units in overwhelming numbers (aka a Zerg swarm). FFXIV has zergs for its FATEs, if you want a trinity based game example (you have the spam heals on the tanks for the boss ones). They are as easy and boring as GW2, if not more.
Zerg forming themselves has nothing to do with the combat system, it has everything to do with ease of access to content and rewards. Except Cursed Shore, Queensdale, World Bosses and where ever the current Living Story stuff is there are no zergs in GW2.
I cleared that up for you.. Have a nice day..
Sorry,, you need to keep up with definitions of slang language as it's being used.. In the beginning it was "outnumbering" mobs as you discribed.. but it has evolved into just "overpower" the enemy with little or no regard to strategy or skill.. This is very similar to blitz'ing a mob as well.. When five level 80's run into a newbie zone and kill off 10 mobs with one shot.. That is zerging as well.. FYI.. Keep up..
I do no know a single GW2 players that use the term zerg for 5 level 80s easily destroying mobs in the lower level zones. When someone talk about the zerg in GW2 it is ALWAYS about the large group of players. When somebody ask about "where is the zerg" on map chat, they are not asking about a random group of 5 players destroying normal mobs by over-leveling them, they are asking about the big group farming events.
You are the first person I've seen to use zerg to mean overpowering regardless of group size and level. I have never seen it used that way until that green post of yours. Nor are the slang dictionaries/wikies updated with your "homemade" definition. Also, it make your comment that "it's impossible in EQ" even more bizarre...
Although, I'm not surprised that some people are using the term inappropriately. If there is one thing MMORPG.com taught me is that people here tend to make their own definitions because they are too stupid to use the one in the dictionary/wiki.
If your problem in GW2 is actually that content is trivial, well mention it. If your problem is that GW2 has too many large groups of players doing content together (the zergs) that is what you should be commenting on. Do not start to use zerg to mean trivial content regardless of group size, that just confuse people.
Nope... I been playing GW2 since beta and it has been talked a lot all over their forums of the Zerg style game from WvW to dungeons. Zerging also means mindless play style. Where you run from point to point with little need to talk as a team to how you will get over said problem. Doing dungeons in GW2 was a total Zerg play style. Often not even needing to stop to kil trash, just running from boss to boss.
EDIT: This has a lot to do with there being no Trinity model. The "Soft Trinity" as they call it has lead to teaming being mind numbing.
Starting to feel like a broken record but here we go... GW2 and EQN combat may end up being quite similar, however GW2 AI isn't nearly as advanced as EQN's AI and that will make all the difference in the world. You will go from simply overwhelming mobs with numbers or spamming attacks to playing tactically. Pve will be very similar in feel to pvp which is a huge step for the mmorpg genre.Two things.. One, I assume you never played original EQ.. An attempt to zerg anything besides the starting zone bats and snakes will get you killed.. LOL Second thing, Some of us have played GW2 so we are well familiar with human zerg'ing any content they can.. However, there is nothing we've seen that shows this "NEW" smart zerging that EQN has planned.. Lets wait and see instead of hyping the sizzle of the unknown steak..
Since you are trying to discredit me by questioning my "credentials" I played EQ1 from '99 until the luclin expansion which ruined the game. I would also ask when exactly i said anything about zerging content down in original EQ? You certainly could but most people were very concerned with KSing. As for "hyping the sizzle of an unknown steak" (really...?) How about you take a look at story bricks and so some reading. A little research and you would know EXACTLY what SOE is doing with the AI.** I just thought I would add that you are indeed using the term zerg incorrectly. What you are thinking of is generally described as "faceroll," as in you roll your face across the keyboard and still win. At this point I'm pretty certain you are just trolling so unless you can manage to post something truly breathtaking in its stupidity or you are actually willing to listen to others I'm done talking to you.
This is pretty much the source of so many discussion issues. People assume their definition is "the" definition and things go downhill from there.
Especially buzzwords (PVP, PVE, Zerg, Sandbox, Grind, Hardcore, Casual, etc). They all might have a general definition, but depending on who you ask, they can go off in some fun places.
If people either can't agree or at least state what the heck they are talking about before hand, we all go off on tangents to no where because the other person doesn't even know what the conversation is about.
Have you played any games besides WoW? It isn't the only way to do things.
"Healers" aka Support can do so much more then just spam heals while staring at health bars. It isn't either be a heal bot or be a "jack of all trades."
Even Preists and other healing classes in WoW have a fairly large tool belt to work with, but most high end encounters revolve around only a few abilities with maybe one unique ability for gimmick fights.
If you want to just stand in the back and stare at HP bars and have the satisfaction of keeping them full, I have no issue with that. Myself, I would much rather have an active role where I'm debuffing, buffing, cleansing, throwing proactive hots/shields, CCing, tossing out some DPS when I can, etc.
I'm a huge fan of fluff abilities (SOW, levitate, shrink/grow, freefall, etc) and love buffs, but I think long duration takes away from a class/role. Instead of buffing everyone for 15 minutes before a fight, have it be a more min to min decision, do I give this guy a haste or this other guy a dmg buff, it can all still be a micro-management adrenaline rush if that is what is being chased after, but it bring an extra depth to a healing/support role instead of heal heal heal heal.
Not to say that isn't possible in WoW, but with a strong reliance on the trinity, usually a class/role gets narrowed down to it's most simplistic version in high end content. All the "fun" stuff is left for soloing or small group stuff. Which again is fine, but I would rather play a game where all classes have a lot of tools and uses all the time.
I'm assuming if someone only wants to heal in EQN, they'll be able to in some way, but I think that missing out on what they are going for. Same for those that will only play 1 class. That is great, I hope they excel at it. Me on the other hand, will be getting them all and trying to master everything. I like variety and mixing it up, doing the same thing forever gets boring, especially when the content is static as well.
It is possible to play the same role and get the same satisfaction as a WoW healer in more active combat type games. You just have to approach it differently. With 40+ classes though, I'm assuming a few will be fairly familiar.
Starting to feel like a broken record? Then stop repeating information that is irrelevant to what others are saying. Combat that is quite similar is a big turn off to me, regardless of how they do AI. That is pretty much what I've been saying.
I like GW2, but I am not one of the fan boys running around acting like every MMO should be like GW2.
I can go for something that takes the good elements of GW2 combat and combines it with other elements in order to make something better, but I don't want combat that is "quite similar" to GW2. PVE combat utterly sucks in GW2. It took them more than a year to release challenging PVE content(the wurms.)
I also want more combat options. I hate the way the weapon skills only have 1 setup without any ability to swap things in and out. If you are using a Greatsword, you'll be using the exact same weapon skills at launch that you'll be using a year and a half later. That is lame.
SPVP and WvW are the only things that keep me playing. Berserker Gear Facerolling through their casual friendly PVE dungeons is lame, and no game should copy that.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
my comments in green.
By the way.. there was a another old thread about that exact topic(shortly after the presantation of EQN) and in there are similar examples, quotes from devs, and so on. And as much as i can remember even a link to an interesting article about storybricks(which will be used in EQN, and will handle the combat and the different behaivor of mobs). There you could look for further and even more detailed information. Googling for storybricks or AI could help, too.. if you are really interested in this topic.
I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.
People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).
I think many fall into the mindset that if it hasn't been done before or was done poorly, then it can't be done. Which I can understand, I try not to blindly believe in things, but I totally get where SB and SOE are going, just hope it turns out as great as it sounds.
One quote that I hope isn't just hype to the 10th power is "It’s not that we are doing a better emergent AI than the other MMO. Other MMOs do not have any AI to speak of!" That is a pretty huge statement.
Hopefully EQN, Landmark and whatever SWG-like game they are making take MMOs into uncharted territory. As seen with ESO, Wildstar, and several other WIP, other companies are still trying to churn out the same old things with a fresh coat of paint. We need a shift in the genre into something else. EQN should be a good start.
I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.
However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system.