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Why are MMORPGs a Special Snowflake?

TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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Comments

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Topics akin to this have been droning on for nearly 15 years now, and it's just grown into tedious nitpicking.  It isn't even an important topic to start with.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    Topics akin to this have been droning on for nearly 15 years now, and it's just grown into tedious nitpicking.  It isn't even an important topic to start with.

    Wow, somebody woke up grumpy today.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon

    il start with im a gamer wich plays on many gaming fields.

    from hack and slashes like diablo and baldurs gate dark alliance

    to RTS like the command and conquer series. I like many diffrent types of games because they all bring something unique.

    I can find something likeable in diffrent types of genre's, However i am an RPG nut, i just love the story that most of em give and the freedom some of em bring (gems like jade cacoon come to mind). And what stand aboves it is MMORPG's they took normal RPG's to a next level sort of where instead you follow a certain storyline you yourself make the the story. No rails nothing set in stone just you a open world and the possibility's therein.

    That is a experience no other form of gaming gave and that is why MMORPG's are special snowflakes.

    at least they where until evrything got on rails.

    You can argue that it is not on rails but be honest to yourself, There is this path of golden questionmarks laid out for you to follow. And there is not much reason to divert from that path.

    future MMORPG's should be about you again. about freedom, about choise and possibility.

    Not these on rails questgrind ->instanced dungeon/raid grinds we have right now.

    The latter is what i call a mere game. the first was something more

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,612Member Uncommon

    Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

     

    The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

     

    There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

     

    The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

     

    There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

    Yup. The first sentence covers it.

    I don't mind if the odd non-mmo finds it's way into this thread or that thread, I also don't mind if this site lists some non-mmo games that people who enjoy mmos might be interested in; this site is a business afterall and has to consider it's future.

    What I do mind is the neverending trolling (from specific members of mmorpg.com {who'll be along shortly, no doubt}) that goes on and on about how LoL is an mmo, D3 is an mmo, WoT is an mmo etc. 'cause they're close enough, right? Fuck no! These games have borrowed a couple of mmo features and happen to be online, but that's where it ends. LoL is a MOBA, D3 is an ARPG, and Wot is TPS lobby game. They all have their own respectiive genres already in place. This shouldn't be so confusing for people who frequent a site like this. 

    If I went to a site that focused on Horror films, I wouldn't want to spend my time there discussing Romance Comedies. But, but...they are both movie genres, right? They both have actors in them, right? No, that would be idiotic. Which is exactly what we see on these forums on a daily basis.

    We as Humans categorize things for a reason; if you struggle with why we do this, then I can only wish you the best in life and good luck out there ;)

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,705Member Uncommon
    League of Legends (LoL) is a big Battleground, so it is just 20% of WoW, so it should not be compared with it.
    If you want to compare apples with oranges it is your choice but they have little in common except they are both fruits.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

     

    The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

     

    There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

    Yup. The first sentence covers it.

    I don't mind if the odd non-mmo finds it's way into this thread or that thread, I also don't mind if this site lists some non-mmo games that people who enjoy mmos might be interested in; this site is a business afterall and has to consider it's future.

    What I do mind is the neverending trolling (from specific members of mmorpg.com {who'll be along shortly, no doubt}) that goes on and on about how LoL is an mmo, D3 is an mmo, WoT is an mmo etc. 'cause they're close enough, right? Fuck no! These games have borrowed a couple of mmo features and happen to be online, but that's where it ends. LoL is a MOBA, D3 is an ARPG, and Wot is TPS lobby game. They all have their own respectiive genres already in place. This shouldn't be so confusing for people who frequent a site like this. 

    If I went to a site that focused on Horror films, I wouldn't want to spend my time there discussing Romance Comedies. But, but...they are both movie genres, right? They both have actors in them, right? No, that would be idiotic. Which is exactly what we see on these forums on a daily basis.

    We as Humans categorize things for a reason; if you struggle with why we do this, then I can only wish you the best in life and good luck out there ;)

     

    A discussion about whether or not D3 is an MMO, and what an MMO is covers a little different territory than declaring that you can't compare e.g. SWToR and LoL's monetization models.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

     

    I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

     

    Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

     

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,231Member Uncommon

    I think they can be compared and should be compared...simply because MMORPGs are in competition from other formats for the same customers.  Other genres can be compared to MMORPGs on the basis of better/faster/cheaper.  In other words, some genres can give you /better/ than an MMORPG, some genres can give you the thing /faster/ than an MMORPG, and some genres can give you the thing more /cheaply/ than an MMORPG.

    Cinematics?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

    PvP?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

    Roleplay?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

    Worlds?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

    Story?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

    What the MMORPG had as its atvantage going into the 2000s was that it can do the same things solo or peer-to-peer games did, but more /cheaply/, or with /better/ quality or at a /faster/ rate.  These days, however, are different.

    __________________________
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    I agreed 100% with the op.

    i play games, not mmorpgs. And d3, lol .. are close enough to mmorpgs to be in the discussions. If you do not agree with this opinion do not have to read or response to posts mentioning other close enough games. People who want to shut people up dont realize that it is futile anyway.

    i have just mentioned d3 in this post, i doubt it is going to be taken down just because of that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by iridescence

    RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

     

    I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

     

    Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

     

    So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

    And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

     

    I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

     

    Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

     

    So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

    And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

    destiny innovation how?

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

     

    I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

     

    Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

     

    So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

    And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

    destiny innovation how?

    Because marketing says so.

     

    Anyway, are MMORPGs special snowflakes? Yes. Simulating a virtual world and pleasing people over the course of years is a lot harder than pleasing servers of 10 players for a round.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

     It depends on the discussion.

    Comparing an MMORPG and an MMO, can and often SHOULD be done. Comparing an MMORPG and a racing game rarely ever should. One is in continual development with a persistent world, the other is neither of those.  Comparing an MMORPG to an SRPG can be done more often because the share the RPG factor, but it also heavily depends on the topic.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

    And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

    If you don't like MMORPGs I guess you wouldn't care. People who do like them or at least the idea of them would be sad to see them die out. Is that really very hard for you to understand?

     

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,342Member Uncommon

    Thats the first problem LoL isnt an MMO and shouldnt be on this site or in the discussion..

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    " The Pub at MMORPG.com

    Use this forum to talk about MMORPGs. Please stay on the topic about MMORPGs and use the "off-topic" forum for unrelated posts. "

     

    To my satisfaction...Answered.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    destiny innovation how?

    seamless matching .. without even pushing a button ... sounds pretty new to me.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Anyway, are MMORPGs special snowflakes? Yes. Simulating a virtual world and pleasing people over the course of years is a lot harder than pleasing servers of 10 players for a round.

    If simulating a virtual world is not that pleasing .. well .. ditch it, and do something else like arena or battleground. Wait .. that is exactly where the genre is going.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
     

    If you don't like MMORPGs I guess you wouldn't care. People who do like them or at least the idea of them would be sad to see them die out. Is that really very hard for you to understand?

     

    So what if some people are sad about changes. I am sure there are those who are sad about text adventures dying out too. It is just entertainment.

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion? In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should. MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL. MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.* MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop. Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59 So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?** * I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.
    When presenting "data", where does anyone draw the line? Is Call of Duty fitting? It is played over the net with large numbers of players, just like LoL. My point of contention with including LoL is that in no way, shape, or form is it a MMO. You may have millions of players on line simultaneously, but it is a lobby. The actual game takes place in an instance where a handful or two (NOT massive in any definition) players fight. If you think LoL counts, then you best include the BrettspielWelt site that hosts board games. It may not have millions of players, but it is the exact same concept as LoL: Players gather in a lobby to join in a match.

    So, if a player plays an MMO (I refuse to say MMORPG), do ALL their other games count? I play a lot board game simulators. Count them in, too!

    So, if a company makes one MMO, do their "other" games need to be counted?

    So, should Facebook games count? They share a similar monetization scheme. Should F2P even be compared to P2P or Freemium? They are DIFFERENT monetization models.

    The worst thing here is that I LIKE the MMORPG genre. I HATE LoL and CoD and other first person shooters. I DESPISE Farmville. Why would *I* "care" about their monetization and success? In other words, why compare something that I (or others) have no interest in?

    The reverse of your hypothesis is also true. Why do you want to include LoL? It makes for a better argument, perhaps?

    In debates, you have to keep your arguments relative to the topic.

    Now, comparing video games in GENERAL, I see no trouble. Include whatever your heart desires. When comparing TO MMOs, keep it relevant. I think you may agree that MMOs are quite different from any other kind of video game. Am I mistaken here?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

     

     

    In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

     

    MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

     

    MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

     

    MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

     

    Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

     

    So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

    **

     

    * I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.


    When presenting "data", where does anyone draw the line? Is Call of Duty fitting? It is played over the net with large numbers of players, just like LoL. My point of contention with including LoL is that in no way, shape, or form is it a MMO. You may have millions of players on line simultaneously, but it is a lobby. The actual game takes place in an instance where a handful or two (NOT massive in any definition) players fight. If you think LoL counts, then you best include the BrettspielWelt site that hosts board games. It may not have millions of players, but it is the exact same concept as LoL: Players gather in a lobby to join in a match.

     

    So, if a player plays an MMO (I refuse to say MMORPG), do ALL their other games count? I play a lot board game simulators. Count them in, too!

    So, if a company makes one MMO, do their "other" games need to be counted?

    So, should Facebook games count? They share a similar monetization scheme. Should F2P even be compared to P2P or Freemium? They are DIFFERENT monetization models.

    The worst thing here is that I LIKE the MMORPG genre. I HATE LoL and CoD and other first person shooters. I DESPISE Farmville. Why would *I* "care" about their monetization and success? In other words, why compare something that I (or others) have no interest in?

    The reverse of your hypothesis is also true. Why do you want to include LoL? It makes for a better argument, perhaps?

    In debates, you have to keep your arguments relative to the topic.

    Now, comparing video games in GENERAL, I see no trouble. Include whatever your heart desires. When comparing TO MMOs, keep it relevant. I think you may agree that MMOs are quite different from any other kind of video game. Am I mistaken here?

    This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.

    The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.

    LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.

    Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    So what if some people are sad about changes. I am sure there are those who are sad about text adventures dying out too. It is just entertainment.

     

    If *you* don't care why even post in this thread?  To extend your analogy it's like me finding a text adventure forum and posting over and over that I don't really care about the games they like. It's sort of true but do they need or want to hear that? Some of your posts make me wonder if you are just trolling.

     

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".
    but... but... but... I though you cared nothing about "genres", aka "groupings."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    True you can't compare mmos to other types of games but what they all have in common is that they compete for your free time. 
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