How to make a content-lite MMORPG

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Comments

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCMember CommonPosts: 4,818

    It's nice to see a thread where people are actually talking about the other side of the coin for once. The flip side is getting a bit tired :)

    I think many of the things being talked about here are why there's such a division in what makes a good mmo and why it went in a very different direction than some people want. We have all kinds of pet names for the people who like to be entertained rather than finding their own fun, but the topic of sandbox features tends to get ignored in favor of  bashing what you don't like.

    Real life is tedious when you're just looking for a game, but a necessary feature for people looking for something with more depth. Perhaps that's the biggest change MMOs have made. They stopped being virtual world sims in favor of being games anyone can play.

     

  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by ste2000
     

    If it's an opinion you probably shouldn't say things like, "the fact that" if it isn't a fact.

    This was in reference to you saying that developers don't seem to get that fact.  One it isn't a fact - there have been many games that are extreme casual and pretty darn successful.  Of course we also need to recognize that the extreme ends are completely subjective. 

    2.  Is your reference that developers don't seem to get it.  If it's not a fact, then there is nothing for them to get.  What you mean is they don't necessarily agree with you. 

    Hang on........... I asked you to tell me some Hardcore or Casual games that were/are a huge success.

    You haven't answered yet, until then that remains a fact............

    While the "fact" (ops sorry I can't resist) that I think that the mix between hardcore and casual features will be succesful, that's my personal opinion, since there aren't any such games to confirm my theory or disprove it (Vanilla WoW is the closer as it gets)

    Hardcore or Casual is not subjective, there are features that are definetly Hardcore like harsh Death penalties, and some other that are distinctively Casual like Quest Hubbing (just mentioning 2 I am not going to make an essay on what is hardcore and what is Casual).

    There is no western MMO except for WoW that has/had more than 1 Million paying customers (subscribers or RMT) for more than a couple of months.

    1 Million paying customers it's not a big number to achieve, since the MMO market today is huge, yet no game can reach that number let alone keep it.

    That's another fact.............. unless you have numbers to prove the opposite.

     

    EA/Bioware hoped that SWTOR would challenge WoW in term of subs, but because they made an ultra-casual game, they went F2P after 6 months because their Subscription base magically disappeared ( I wonder why a Star Wars game could fail so hard......).

    So EA/Bioware didn't get it.........shall we talk about TSW or Warhammer? (The list is long)

     

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    If you want to support developers that keep making games that a minority of the MMO population play, you are entitled to.

    As I am entitled to disagree the way the Developers/Publishers are handling the MMO Industry.

  • AeliousAelious OregonMember RarePosts: 3,481
    I'll say this, with fun gameplay and lore following breadcrumbs along the same paved walkway as every other player was fun for a while. It's kind of boring after a while though.

    Add free form gathering/building onto this satire of an OP and I would play given good world lore, game design and decent folk to play with.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Originally posted by ste2000

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    Really?

    D3 sold 14M boxes. GW2 sold millions in the first 2-3 weeks. LoL and WoT are big successes.

    They get it .. what they get is that the time of the traditional MMO is gone .. and what will be successful is change, and variation to the formula, like:

    D3 - not a MMO, but have some MMO elements

    LoL/WoT - just ditch the virtual world, focus on arena type PvP, and make it into an esport

    GW2 - make it even MORE convenient than WoW

    .. and there are plenty of cool new development like Destiny & Division ... they are not strictly speaking MMOs, but a) they are close enough for me, and b) the future may belongs to non-MMOs that take some MMO elements.

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCMember CommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    Really?

    D3 sold 14M boxes. GW2 sold millions in the first 2-3 weeks. LoL and WoT are big successes.

    They get it .. what they get is that the time of the traditional MMO is gone .. and what will be successful is change, and variation to the formula, like:

    D3 - not a MMO, but have some MMO elements

    LoL/WoT - just ditch the virtual world, focus on arena type PvP, and make it into an esport

    GW2 - make it even MORE convenient than WoW

    .. and there are plenty of cool new development like Destiny & Division ... they are not strictly speaking MMOs, but a) they are close enough for me, and b) the future may belongs to non-MMOs that take some MMO elements.

     

    I think the time of the traditional mmo being the focus of mainstream development is gone, but the games themselves still have many...many fans who are unhappy with their options. That means there's a market and at some point someone will try and cash in on it.

    What really has to change is the mmo fan who was the target audience needs to adjust and accept that they no longer are and all these games they rage about aren't failing. they're just being made for someone else.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    Really?

    D3 sold 14M boxes. GW2 sold millions in the first 2-3 weeks. LoL and WoT are big successes.

     

    Read my post ...................entirely.

     

    My quote:

    "There is no western MMO except for WoW that has/had more than 1 Million paying customers (subscribers or RMT) for more than a couple of months."

    GW2 is B2P although it has a cash shop, its content is 100% free once you buy the client.

    Also when D3 became a MMO?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    Really?

    D3 sold 14M boxes. GW2 sold millions in the first 2-3 weeks. LoL and WoT are big successes.

    They get it .. what they get is that the time of the traditional MMO is gone .. and what will be successful is change, and variation to the formula, like:

    D3 - not a MMO, but have some MMO elements

    LoL/WoT - just ditch the virtual world, focus on arena type PvP, and make it into an esport

    GW2 - make it even MORE convenient than WoW

    .. and there are plenty of cool new development like Destiny & Division ... they are not strictly speaking MMOs, but a) they are close enough for me, and b) the future may belongs to non-MMOs that take some MMO elements.

     

    I think the time of the traditional mmo being the focus of mainstream development is gone, but the games themselves still have many...many fans who are unhappy with their options. That means there's a market and at some point someone will try and cash in on it.

    What really has to change is the mmo fan who was the target audience needs to adjust and accept that they no longer are and all these games they rage about aren't failing. they're just being made for someone else.

    No doubt there are some traditional MMO fans that are upset about the progress of the genre, but that is just a fact of life. It happens to many genre.

    Personally, i am very excited about the new stuff, particularly the idea of taking some good elements of MMO, and combined with other genre. Traditional MMO is getting old for me, anyway.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    What really has to change is the mmo fan who was the target audience needs to adjust and accept that they no longer are and all these games they rage about aren't failing. they're just being made for someone else.

     

    Every major MMO coming out these days (since 2004) aims to achieve WoW numbers, yet none of them got even close.

    That's nothing to do with players being a bunch of whiners who ask the developers to make their dream MMO.

    It is the fact that MMO industry hasn't been able to make a decent MMO that could challenge WoW until now............ maybe it is not the players, maybe it's the devs that don't get the MMO crowd and keep mixing the MMO players with the main stream players who generally don't want to spend more than the box price for a MMO (just like they do for the single player games they usually buy).

    MMO developers are trying too hard to appeal main stream players, rather than the MMO players, and that's were they are getting it wrong (in my honest opinion)

  • ToferioToferio RandomMember UncommonPosts: 1,411
    Sounds like OP just gave Mortal Online a go. 
  • ste2000ste2000 londonMember EpicPosts: 6,194
    Originally posted by Toferio
    Sounds like OP just gave Mortal Online a go. 

    Why would you say that? image

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABMember Posts: 437
    No, I can pretty safely say it is the players themselves that have screwed mmorpgs, the instant gratification crowd Is the mainstream, and the devs are catering to this element. Hell, half the people that post here cannot even do basic English, let alone comprehend how to play a game that is not spoon fed to them. The old mmo crowd, including me are classed as bittervets, and the new crowd takes to the forums in droves to gangbang anything that does not fit their vision of my opinion matters. Just look at TESO, the new not even lifted yet and you have 100's of whining, critics, that make up the facts as they go, just to it their personal adjenda of if I don't like it, no one will. Look at Swotor, I don't really like it, but hey no matter what you naysayers cry, they have turned the game around and are actually doing better.

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,669
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    It is easy! Just follow the steps below: Don't spend any time on tutorials and documentation: Figuring out the game serves as "content". Sparse everything apart so that traveling serves as "content". Don't include quests; you don't want to pay for writers. Fill the world with mobs, but make the drop rates and rewards low so that people will continue to grind them for as long as possible. Include many trivial but mandatory (or strongly encouraged) attrition mechanics such as eating, drinking and long term buffs. Ensuring their supply will keep players busy when they are not grinding... or traveling. Make everything as difficult and as high maintenance as possible: Nothing should be easy, and nothing should be automatic so the players have to be glued on the keyboard in order to make something happen. If you want to go somewhere, you have to stay there for the whole 20 minutes pressing "W"-key and following the road. It is "content" after all. Keep the respawn rates for bosses low, so that waiting for them will serve as "content". Same applies for fishing. I think it goes without saying that the preferred payment model would be subscription. Can you come up with more?   (And if you haven't figured it out. The above is criticism.)

    Actually, I have figured it out, just your usual "cynicism" with a heavy dose of hyperbole thrown in to belittle virtual world game mechanics that some of us consider as valuable components to our game play.

    We get it, we really do, you don't like virtual world MMORPG's, you are a tourist who prefers to play "games" rather than "suffer and endure" the hardships living in a virtual world can entail.

    You probably wonder why people climb mountains, instead of just taking a helicopter up to the top.

     

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,298
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by ste2000
     

    If it's an opinion you probably shouldn't say things like, "the fact that" if it isn't a fact.

    This was in reference to you saying that developers don't seem to get that fact.  One it isn't a fact - there have been many games that are extreme casual and pretty darn successful.  Of course we also need to recognize that the extreme ends are completely subjective. 

    2.  Is your reference that developers don't seem to get it.  If it's not a fact, then there is nothing for them to get.  What you mean is they don't necessarily agree with you. 

    Hang on........... I asked you to tell me some Hardcore or Casual games that were/are a huge success.

    You haven't answered yet, until then that remains a fact............

    While the "fact" (ops sorry I can't resist) that I think that the mix between hardcore and casual features will be succesful, that's my personal opinion, since there aren't any such games to confirm my theory or disprove it (Vanilla WoW is the closer as it gets)

    Hardcore or Casual is not subjective, there are features that are definetly Hardcore like harsh Death penalties, and some other that are distinctively Casual like Quest Hubbing (just mentioning 2 I am not going to make an essay on what is hardcore and what is Casual).

    There is no western MMO except for WoW that has/had more than 1 Million paying customers (subscribers or RMT) for more than a couple of months.

    1 Million paying customers it's not a big number to achieve, since the MMO market today is huge, yet no game can reach that number let alone keep it.

    That's another fact.............. unless you have numbers to prove the opposite.

     

    EA/Bioware hoped that SWTOR would challenge WoW in term of subs, but because they made an ultra-casual game, they went F2P after 6 months because their Subscription base magically disappeared ( I wonder why a Star Wars game could fail so hard......).

    So EA/Bioware didn't get it.........shall we talk about TSW or Warhammer? (The list is long)

     

    So, in my opinion the developers do not get it............ it sucks you don't agree with me, nothing I can do about it.

    If you want to support developers that keep making games that a minority of the MMO population play, you are entitled to.

    As I am entitled to disagree the way the Developers/Publishers are handling the MMO Industry.

    Actually I mentioned several games.

    And if only one game has achieved and sustained over a million subs than it is huge big number to achieve, regardless of how big the market is. 

    I didn't say I didn't agree with you.  I said it's not a fact.  Nor did I say I support games that minority (or a majority for that majority) play or do not play.  I stated it's not a fact. 

    Casual and hardcore are definitely subjective, there is not a single objective thing about them actually, there is nothing you can point to and say this is what it is regardless of what you believe (the definition of objective).  Yes there are Some things people agree on, but the overall game, not a chance.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ViperDragonViperDragon LlandudnoMember UncommonPosts: 101
    Funny but it's true (in many cases, and from my experience).  Luckily, though, it isn't the norm.  I've had a great experience - so far - with new MMO offerings.  I think the problem comes when you have solely creators behind these new MMO projects, and not business men and women.

    A great list of free games (mostly MMORPGs): http://www.mytop10games.com/

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHMember UncommonPosts: 2,658

    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.

     

    I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.

     

    You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.

     

    I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need. 

     

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TampereMember UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Xthos
    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.   I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.   You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.   I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need.

    Tell me, do you go to a rock concert and complain they're not playing jazz?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • xeniarxeniar Member UncommonPosts: 805
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Xthos
    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.   I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.   You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.   I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need.

    Tell me, do you go to a rock concert and complain they're not playing jazz?

    no we went to rockconcerts and now suddenly they are playing jazz....

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHMember UncommonPosts: 2,658
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Xthos
    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.   I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.   You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.   I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need.

    Tell me, do you go to a rock concert and complain they're not playing jazz?

    Tell me, is a penny all copper.

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHMember UncommonPosts: 2,658
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Xthos
    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.   I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.   You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.   I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need.

    Tell me, do you go to a rock concert and complain they're not playing jazz?

    no we went to rockconcerts and now suddenly they are playing jazz....

    Heh, Kenny G stormed the stage.  Was trying to find a Lewis Black bit about Kenny G, Yanni and some others, but couldn't find it, it is pretty old.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Xthos
    This is a forum, I post about the topics....I don't post on games I have not tried, unless it is about a mechanic or something that you do not have to play the game to post about.   I do not demand anything, I state my opinion.  My money is here for the taking, it is up to developers to decide if they want it.  I will keep voicing my opinion though, because if my and others like me just shut up and go away...Chances of getting a mmo we want go down, even if it is 0.000001% or whatever people want to claim is that chance.   You have every right to not like old school type mmos, just as I have every right to not like games that you level in a couple days of played time, telegraphed attacks, super railed quest hubs, tacked on harvesting/crafting that is basically useless, 90% or more of the content is instanced, glorified lobby mmos, or finders for everything so you just sit in a city among some of the things.   I could of made some attempt at a witty play on that above and more, but I don't feel the need.

    Tell me, do you go to a rock concert and complain they're not playing jazz?

    I think a better example is do you go to a forum about old (insert hobby/entertaiment/whatever) being better than the new stuff.  I am certain you will find this isn't the only place.  Like he said this isn't a game its a discussion about the industry in general old, new and future.  

     

    You could look at your own post and ask... why do you knowingly come to a forum where people will complain about stuff in ways you don't like?  Doesn't your own advice work just as well for you?  Let alone make post essentially complaining under the guise of sarcasm.  

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,441

    Sorry if i wrong but this topic sound trolling and don't have anything about discussion aside cause flame.

    Contents and gameplay are mix of many parts ,

    some mix are best with other to make better gameplay.

     

    But mixing goods together don't mean it fix the taste of market ,

    And remember , taste always change . Like fashion go from old to new and return to old with some change.

    It mean old taste will become new when it time come .

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