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I'd like to co-design a game...

sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon

I love designing games, especially MMOs, but it's no fun to do it forever alone.

forever alone girl

I'm not really interested in joining a project where the important decisions have already been made (probably in a way I don't really like).  Instead I'd like to get into a project right at the beginning idea-generating stage.

I am specifically interested in designing an MMO with these traits:

- Interactive story core, Sandbox peripherals.  I don't really care whether the game has levels, but pure sandbox games fail at having good story and theatricality, and pure themepark games fail at having really interactive worlds and the chance to creatively build and make things within the world.

- Crafting focused, meaning that each player has a piece of property where they build their own storage, crafting appliances, house, stable, and farm-fields (example of a game with this type of crafting: A Tale In The Desert).  Crafting could include pet capturing and/or breeding, farming, and fishing, as well as more obvious things like architecture, smithing, tailoring, chemistry/alchemy/cooking, etc.  Crafting should be minigame-like or time-management-like, not based on waiting or worker placement.  Puzzle Pirates is an example of a game with minigame crafting.

room containing looms and distaffs from A Tale In The Desertblacksmithing minigame from puzzle pirates

 

- Combat? Yes!  I like any of: tactical combat, FParchery ala Skyrim (not a gun fan), spellbar/cooldown combat if it's not too simplistic or automated, arcade-style combat with jumping and kicking and such, or deck-building/dueling with a CCG system.  I do NOT like turn-based non-tactical combat as seen in Pokemon or older Final Fantasy games.

tactical combat from Disgaea

- Relationship and Faction Reputation Building - some combination of the best parts of Skyrim, WoW, and dating sims like Harvest Moon and the more adult Japanese ones.

 

So, is anyone else interested in designing this type of MMO?

I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
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Comments

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAMember Posts: 861

    Hi, sunandshadow :)

    Just curious... what types of settings and themes are you interested in? I assume fantasy, given your archery comment, but more specifically: what kind of fantasy dynamic interests you? High fantasy? Dark? Dystopian or inspiring? Something else entirely?

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Hi, sunandshadow :) Just curious... what types of settings and themes are you interested in? I assume fantasy, given your archery comment, but more specifically: what kind of fantasy dynamic interests you? High fantasy? Dark? Dystopian or inspiring? Something else entirely?

    Thank you for asking. :)  I particularly do not like high fantasy, dark fantasy, dystopias, or war stories.  I like non-Earth, non-Tolkien original settings, whether they are something like "alien historical fantasy" or something like "futuristic science fantasy" or something like "social science fiction".  Some of my favorite specific settings are: magic academies/space academies, maroonings on uninhabited islands or planets, clans or walled cities in a renaissance-era setting, a mercenary troop (historical fantasy version or space version), or tribal-era historical fantasy.  I like any of human, alien, anthro, or fantasy-race characters, as long as they are not the really-overdone fantasy races.  I like 80s-style adventure, romance, comedy, and a bit of psychodrama and romantic angst in there so it isn't too fluffy, but no horror, tragedy, or grittiness.  People tend to comment that my writing style is anime-like.  Let me give a quick description of a few of my old game concepts so you can see what kinds of worlds I like to build:

    Gimmie Those Wings! - You are a newly-hatched shapeshifter.  Like all newborn shapeshifters you can't actually shapeshift; you have to eat some animals (or at least sip their blood a bit) to get their DNA and use it to modify yourself.  You are born into the shadow of the great aerial city Haute Ecole, where your parents presumably live, but you can't live there since you can't fly.  Make some friends, venture out into the world, collect DNA, customize yourself to be powerful or persuasive, and you may eventually earn your wings and gain entry to Haute Ecole! (single player RPG)

    image

    Xenallure: A Tapestry Of Hearts - You are one of a half-dozen modern humans abruptly summoned into a strange room where high-tech walls contrast oddly with the pentacle on the floor and that piebald guy who just finished chanting and looks baffled to see you humans.  The other humans bolt out the door - do you run too or talk to the guy?  Where the heck are you, does magic work here, can you do magic, and could you go home if you wanted to?  (The player wouldn't know this at the beginning, but they are actually in a post-apocalyptic future, and also in a time loop; when they get to the end of the loop they can take whatever ending they unlocked over the course of the game, or start a new game+.  The game features a dozen courtable characters, 3 races (high-tech hermaphrodites, animalistic magicals, and immortal spirituals) with unique cultures, the ability to change your own race, and the ability to found your own town and do sim-like activities there if you want to collect up the human refugees and be their leader.) (single player rpg)

    image

    WildWright - You are a nature spirit, specifically a teenage one who has aaaalmost passed the final test to allow you to set out on your own into the universe *cough*pokemon journey*cough*.  But you're stuck on the "nursery" world where your parents chose, like most WildWrights, to like while their children were too young to defend themselves against the monster found on other worlds.  (A world is like an island floating in air-filled space; magic wooden sailing ships take passengers between them, or you can fly if you have a flying mount.)  So to get people to finally recognize you as an adult, you have to prove to your teachers that you can master 3 things: summoning your pocket dimension Estate, taming your first pet, and crafting yourself a set of clothes and basic healing potions.  (After the player leaves the nursery world there are factions to build reputation with, courtable NPCs, minigames to play, a PvP arena for avatar combat and a separate one for tactical pet combat, plus story and quests where you can develop your character to be a hero or a villain by how you deal with the two great enemies of your people: stasis and entropy.)  (MMOrpsim)

    image

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon
    @PerfArt What kind of settings and themes do you like? :)
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAMember Posts: 861

    Those are some great concepts, sunandshadow! I would play these games :) They also express in specifics some of the concepts you have mentioned in the general forums. It's nice to see someone actually have a real understanding of the concepts they espouse.

    Me? I just like boob-sliders. 

    Ha. Really, I am all over the place. I prefer fantasy, but non-traditional in nature.

    I tend to over-design conceptually and then pull myself back into reality a bit. Example of a grandiose idea culled thusly. This was designed as a pnp rpg and 3D mmorpg and pared back into a more achievable format:

    Lunaverse: an online srpg/fantasy space exploration shooter. 2D top-down perspective. You create a character based on a number of talents and races, effectively building your own class. Your starting "worldscape" is determined by race. The initial game is sp and involves you exploring your worldscape (floating continent in ethereal space) and building a team from available npcs that are each allied to one of three factions. This gameplay is deep tactical srpg fare with crafting and level-based progression. You also seek and discover the means to build your own "nethership," of which there are various modifiable classes. The game then opens up to multiplayer. The expanse of ethereal space contains various worldscapes that can be explored and conquered. Each contains resources vital to nethership advancement and gear upgrades. Ship exploration and combat is inspired by Armada (Dreamcast game) but allows for boarding which switches to srpg combat and each worldscape can be explored and conquered on foot. Players team up for the purpose of allied ships being able to penetrate deeper into ethereal space and conquer increasingly challenging scapes, thus moving one's faction closer to dominance. Land-based groups consist of amalgamations of each player's existing group. This game would be initially small in regard to worldscape abundance but easily expandable by adding content that expanded ethereal space and the worlds within it. 

    That's one idea I have been working on. Mostly just world-building and fleshing out the races and factions. Gameplay systems being kept simple/pnp-based to allow for future adaptation to coding. I am thinking mobile game or maybe browser-based. One focus is laying the groundwork for a deep crafting system that utilizes elemental power and effects in a modular fashion for the purposes of creating everything from personal items to flying ships, all governed by the same mechanical principles but varying in magnitude. It's hard :P

     

     

     

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon

    I'm glad you like the concepts, thank you for saying so! ^_^  I think understanding the design concepts one wants to work with is important to being a good designer, and also half the fun of discussing them. :)

    I can see how your Lunaverse concept could work well as a browser-based game. :)  The most similar thing I've played is the space portion of Spore, but most psrts of Spore felt shallowly-developed because they tried to do too much in one game, even for an AAA team.  Your plan sounds like an improvement.  I like the idea of ship customization and tactical play, and also the idea of exploring worlds on foot looking for resources.

    The choice of pen and paper systems as a basis for computer game design is interesting; I don't have a lot of experience with that kind of game.  When I play non-computer games/video games I mainly play CCGs and board games.  I'm kind of wary about tabletop-influenced game design actually, since I'm much more of a jRPG fan than a wRPG fan.  Western RPGs lose me with their often shallow characterization, minimal story, and sometimes derivative worldbuilding.  But, I've read about a few tabletop systems that seem quite cool and unique; one where every character has some type of insanity that adds challenge and humor to the play, one where the player chooses personality elements as part of their character creation and those personality elements are used for customization by the DM's plot-creation process, and one where the players have pet monster companions which act with more personality than any computer pokemon game.

    That crafting system does sound like it would be complicated to design!  Almost like language construction.  Are you going to have blueprints with mix-n-match elements, or more like lego blocks the player assembles to make something, or...?  I've been lucky so far, that when I've had a crafting system to design it was one with a mostly-historical basis, and several existing games have something similar.  Instead the challenge for me is to make the crafting unique and not just a copy of someone else's process for going from plant matter to fabric to clothing, and that sort of thing.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • zastenzasten nowhereMember Posts: 283

    2d or 3d type engine?

    I would like to get in to doing something along the same path.

    What abilities do you have other than conceptualizing it, any programming or graphical talent?

    I am able to do most coding but never really look at 3d stuff, also able to do some graphical work as one of my artworks was published in a paper magazine so can't be too bad!

    Anybody else interested in doing this?

     

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon
    Originally posted by zasten
    2d or 3d type engine? I would like to get in to doing something along the same path. What abilities do you have other than conceptualizing it, any programming or graphical talent? I am able to do most coding but never really look at 3d stuff, also able to do some graphical work as one of my artworks was published in a paper magazine so can't be too bad! Anybody else interested in doing this?  

    Hi zasten :)  I am a writer (documentation and surveys are my specialty but also game plot outline and dialogue) and a concept artist.  The images with my three example game concepts are all mine.  I've done some 2D art for actual games (vector art, specifically; actually got paid for it a couple of times), but my art style is hard for other people to match, and I don't have the production power to do anywhere near ALL the art for an MMO.  For this particular game concept I think it would work better with 3D but could be made to work with 2D.  Here are a few examples of my stuff.  The example game concepts are examples of my writing, but for a game design document example (it's not complete) you can look at this old one for Xenallure: http://home.comcast.net/~wickeddelite/XenallureDesignDoc.doc

    goldfish swimming gif

    fox man from vector paper-doll system

    baby foxicorn pet

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon

    I do not want to come off as the "Harbinger of Doom" here... but it is much more complex than what you initially think.

    Just about every gamer you know wishes they could create a game, the truth of the matter is, it is very difficult much more so than you could possibly imagine unless you actually dig in and try it. It is also ridiculously expensive to get started. Nowadays there are way to take some of that monetary stress away for indie devs through kickstarter programs and such but you would still need a fully functioning demo/product to get money from people to finalize it.

    Only reason I mention this is because I also was like this. Except I took it a step further and actually dug in. I bought the programs to begin game design, I spent the countless hours in photoshop creating assets, I found someone who could code for me. The list goes on.

    In the end I had to stop for one simple reason which is sad really, games require so much artwork that one person can't feasibly release a game in any reasonable amount of time solo. I even had a coder, together we were making great progress but what I really needed was multiple artist who would actually work on something *for free* until the game was released to return a profit. What you will find is this is almost/near impossible to find as legit artist will not work for free... adding to that monetary thing I was talking about earlier.

    If you want to follow a dream, then by all means let nothing stop you, but just do not be like me, and actually research what you are getting into before you do it, realize the scope and scale of what you wish to accomplish.

    I can tell you now though, mine was only a 2D RPG win/pc game and it needed more than I could find. You guys are talking a full scale 3D sandbox MMO.

    You will need writers, musicians, modelers, 3d artist, programmers, network engineers/programming/ system gurus, a pretty good chunk of money... and a lot of luck :)

    BTW Good Luck! and if you  have any questions about game design, I will answer all that I can for you.

    EDIT** Also if you were curious what my game was about, I can PM it to you, I really don't want my concepts out here for the world to see, as I was going to do something truly unique in gaming that has never been tried before. If I can ever find enough artist to help me finish the game, then I plan to still release it. Wanna keep it secret :-P

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon

    @neonaka I had almost exactly the same experience - was trying to make a single player 2D game, could not find another volunteer vector artist (and the game was 100% vector), got burned out and had to stop when I had made only about 1/3 of the art.  The fox man above is from that game - he's actually an export from a paperdoll system; he's made of over a dozen different body part images.

    I completely agree though - it's flatly impossible for one artist (or at least, on who isn't insanely driven and productive, which I'm not) to make all the art for a game that's even medium-sized, much less an MMO.  I'm pretty sure it's impossible for one programmer to do all the coding for an MMO either, though it depends if you can get an engine/kit that already has most of the features you want.  And yeah, money is always an issue; I've tried to learn 3D art but I hate blender, it gives me the feeling it was written by martians.  I keep wondering if I'd have an easier time with one of the expensive pro programs.  Also there are various packs of 3D models for sale that would really reduce the development effort needed for a 3D game if one had money to throw at them.

    BTW did you try deviant art's project forum?  If you don't need vector art, that's a good place to recruit volunteer artists.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon

    I actually did go to deviantart and I was able to get a few artist to contribute on minor things like title screen art ect.

    My main problem was the character design and animation. For me creating the world was the easy part as I am decent artist myself and I have lots of art programs like Photoshop and blackink at my disposal to create. However doing sprite/vector animation proved to be to much for me to handle alone as every character requires tons of animation time to make them move in a 2D environment. For example just to make a decent looking sprite walk you might need say 8 frames of animation. which doesn't sound like much to draw by hand, but he also needs to jump, run, sprint, swing a sword or shoot a gun, crawl it goes on forever. That is just one character. Start factoring in the scale of your project and how many NPCs you have and it quickly becomes apparent you can't do this alone.

    Speaking to your pro programs statement, I bought Gamemaker Studio Pro and Unity 4.3. Both of which are excellent at producing good games if you have a team dedicated enough to focus on a project. That is the thing though, anything is possible if you gather all the proper human resources beforehand, set realistic goals and expectations and tackle it from there.

    I thought my idea was killer, and honestly I still to this day think it would have made an awesome game. Game development just isn't easy....

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 782 Uncommon

    As I mentioned in another thread, if this was to become a reality how would you go about maintaining a server for the game?

    I suppose after a certain amount of time you could join Kickstarter, but even then there is a pretty high possibility that wouldn't even be enough. Unless the game gets a lot of attention that is.

    Edit: Oh BTW,  If I was interested in such a project, I would be able to do just about anything in the art portion of the game. Concept Drawings, CG ART, 3D Modeling, Level Design, Textures, Music .. and probably other things I haven't though of lol

    As I said, I am not all that great when it comes to anatomy. So I never have done 3D modeling of characters. Course this doesn't necessary mean I can't do it. If a profile concept art for the character was done, I probably wouldn't have any trouble.

    If you want to see some examples of my work, let me know.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon

    @Brabbit1987 Well, I'm not volunteering to be the _leader_ of an MMO-creation project - I know from experience that I suck at that role.  Ideally I'd want to be the coordinator of the story and art side of a project, or even in charge of a smaller non-technical area.  I don't know a darn thing about servers.  Though I do know a bit about setting up a kickstarter campaign.  So yeah, the question of how to make a server work wouldn't end up being my decision because I definitely don't have the qualifications to make that type of decision.  Mostly people seem to either set up a spare computer at someone's house with a t-10 or better connection for the early development period (I've tested multiple flash and html5 games this way), or they have one or more local client-server setups in developers' houses with 2 machines, though renting a server isn't horribly expensive if you only need one that can support 10 players for testing purposes.

    You're welcome to post some art samples if you like. :)  Though the question is, does this particular type of MMO stir your enthusiasm enough that you'd be happy putting work into it?  That's my question for everyone who wants to form into a development team, rather than just chatting about design ideas.

    I'd have to know for sure what the art style for this proposed project was going to be to provide character references, but I can show you some of my existing ones that I have up as creative commons tutorials on deviant art.  So if you decided to make a model from one there would be no problem with rights if you decided to use it for something else later.

    http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Bishounen-Skeleton-Silhouette-88490259

    http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Shoujo-Proportions-91839104

    http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Male-Anatomy-Broad-Shoulders-91945263

    http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Male-Anatomy-Skinny-91945496

    http://home.comcast.net/~wickeddelight/malechubbybasewithhighlightsandshadowsclean.png

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 782 Uncommon
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    @Brabbit1987 Well, I'm not volunteering to be the _leader_ of an MMO-creation project - I know from experience that I suck at that role.  Ideally I'd want to be the coordinator of the story and art side of a project, or even in charge of a smaller non-technical area.  I don't know a darn thing about servers.  Though I do know a bit about setting up a kickstarter campaign.  So yeah, the question of how to make a server work wouldn't end up being my decision because I definitely don't have the qualifications to make that type of decision.  Mostly people seem to either set up a spare computer at someone's house with a t-10 or better connection for the early development period (I've tested multiple flash and html5 games this way), or they have one or more local client-server setups in developers' houses with 2 machines, though renting a server isn't horribly expensive if you only need one that can support 10 players for testing purposes. You're welcome to post some art samples if you like. :)  Though the question is, does this particular type of MMO stir your enthusiasm enough that you'd be happy putting work into it?  That's my question for everyone who wants to form into a development team, rather than just chatting about design ideas. I'd have to know for sure what the art style for this proposed project was going to be to provide character references, but I can show you some of my existing ones that I have up as creative commons tutorials on deviant art.  So if you decided to make a model from one there would be no problem with rights if you decided to use it for something else later. http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Bishounen-Skeleton-Silhouette-88490259 http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Shoujo-Proportions-91839104 http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Male-Anatomy-Broad-Shoulders-91945263 http://sunandshadow.deviantart.com/art/Male-Anatomy-Skinny-91945496 http://home.comcast.net/~wickeddelight/malechubbybasewithhighlightsandshadowsclean.png

    I certainly wouldn't mind working on such a project. Sounds pretty good to me.

     

    As for some of my work, here is my dA account http://brook-brabbit3587.deviantart.com/

  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon

    lol you know what would be cool, another post on mmorpg.com sparked a thought for me today.

    An MMO without humanoid player characters as we know it, but instead actual bestial in nature.

    For example, Dragons, Unicorns, Phoenix, mythical creatures ect... where the players play as these creatures in a sandbox environment. Skilling up.

    Mythical animals could have skills just as cool as anything humanoid we could dream up, dragon fire, unicorns shooting rainbow beams from their horns, sky is the limit on what you could do with animals instead of people.

    Anyway, just throwing it out there as it has not been done before and I think it would have potential if done right.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 782 Uncommon
    Originally posted by neonaka
    lol you know what would be cool, another post on mmorpg.com sparked a thought for me today. An MMO without humanoid player characters as we know it, but instead actual bestial in nature. For example, Dragons, Unicorns, Phoenix, mythical creatures ect... where the players play as these creatures in a sandbox environment. Skilling up. Mythical animals could have skills just as cool as anything humanoid we could dream up, dragon fire, unicorns shooting rainbow beams from their horns, sky is the limit on what you could do with animals instead of people. Anyway, just throwing it out there as it has not been done before and I think it would have potential if done right.

    You wouldn't think so, but it would become a game that is really hard to balance. Haven't you ever noticed when they design different races, they are always in the image of a human? They do this so all races can have similar skill, and it's much easier to balance.

    While, if you have all sorts of different creatures, some will have abilities that others are unable to achieve, and you will have to compensate for such abilities. You never want a player to be defenseless just because of the race they chose.

    Now of course, I am not saying it can't be done. Just saying it would be a lot more complicated and I don't know if the end result would actually be worth it. Cause while some people may think the whole mythical creatures thing is cool, if you want to make an MMO, you are going to want it to be popular. Other wise, no money ... no servers. Many starting game devs make the mistake of only making the game for them self, leaving out their main audience. This can easily be disastrous for a project.

  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon

    lol at the very basis of human nature you only have 2 demographics.

    Male and Female, lets be honest here, as a guy, you can't tell me you wouldn't think it was cool to play a fire breathing dragon. On the other side of the coin most women would find it cool to play as a whimsical Unicorn. Creatures such as a Phoenix would appeal to Unisex as I think guys find a firebird just as cool as a woman would. 

    I think the idea has potential though I definitely see your point.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 782 Uncommon
    Originally posted by neonaka
    lol at the very basis of human nature you only have 2 demographics. Male and Female, lets be honest here, as a guy, you can't tell me you wouldn't think it was cool to play a fire breathing dragon. On the other side of the coin most women would find it cool to play as a whimsical Unicorn. Creatures such as a Phoenix would appeal to Unisex as I think guys find a firebird just as cool as a woman would.  I think the idea has potential though I definitely see your point.

    Right, but the largest demographic rather play as human. Not sure if you ever noticed this, but the human race in all games tend to be the most popular by a land slide. You may wonder why this is. The main reason is because we can more easily relate to the character if it is the same race as us. People tend to get more attached to a character they can easily relate to more.

    In WoW,  the Horde faction, where there is no human to choose from, the most popular in that case is the Blood Elf, which is the closest to looking human.

     

    Just to put in perspective how many people actually like playing the human race.

     

    Now of course this doesn't mean you are wrong. However, you could easily just include those beasts as pets, and allow them to be playable just like a character. Similar to how Mabinogi works with their pets. Which I always saw as a great idea.

  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon

    That problem is for more than you think, going back to wow for a second, I think one of the main reasons more people on the horde play blood elves isn't really because they are more human, but more cosmetically pleasing to the eye. In the case of the Horde almost every other race is so butt ugly that many people just can't identify with it.

    For example I played horde in wow, and I did play a blood elf as my main, not because it was most human, but because as a male in RL, the orcs look like they fell out the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. The taurens (which I did play a tauren druid as an alt) weren't AS bad but it is still a humanoid cow. Trolls were LOL, and the undead were basically zombies.

    We could break all these out even further, like say horror movie fans and emo kids migrate to the undead while nature lovers tend to play taurens, I don't know if that is true, just saying in general.

    There were even more factors that played into it, like this one for the example which was also the case for me and about 100 guild members who left alliance.

    In vanilla wow, it became pretty apparent early on that horde was dominant on most servers in pvp. Many alliance players jumped ship and swapped from alliance which had the far more cosmetically appealing races to actually be able to enjoy pvp.

    When Blood elves released all the former alliance players now had a new viable option for a visually appealing race and still stay on the horde. <--- this one actually happened a lot more than people think.

    haha wow is an interesting subject because of the culture it caused. Back to the people playing as creatures thing. In all honesty neither of us know what would happen if a game like this were made because it has never been attempted. I am not even sure if a poll has been conducted to see if people would try a game like this.

    I will throw this out there though, way back when Istaria was still known as Horizons, they released with a metric crap ton of bi-ped humanoid races. They were also the only game and still the only MMO to allow Dragon as a playable race. I played Horizons for about a year give or take, and in that year, Dragons were by far the most played race in Istaria (pretty sure they still are in 2013) which just goes to show that people must at least be willing to give a creature an honest shot.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKMember Posts: 1,788
    A lot of people think they can just "design" a game, and get other people to actually build it because they don't know how.  Are you one of those people?

    You make me like charity

  • neonakaneonaka Smithsburg, MDMember Posts: 779 Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    A lot of people think they can just "design" a game, and get other people to actually build it because they don't know how.  Are you one of those people?

    I don't think the OP comes off that way, She made it pretty clear her limitations on what she could and couldn't do. She is a story writer and conceptual artist it sounds like, both of which have a spot on a games dev team but it takes a lot more than that to make a game. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who can do every aspect of game design solo. I know some exist, but very few.

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAMember Posts: 150
    The only advise I can offer is try and get a job in the industry, make friends, share ideas, learn the ins and outs of actually making a game from cradle to grave. Once you have a few years under your belt, try and convince some of your co-workers to do a game, then acquire capital (kickstarter, private loans, ...), and then finally build the game you want.
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    A lot of people think they can just "design" a game, and get other people to actually build it because they don't know how.  Are you one of those people?

    Nope.

     

    I agree with the point about the blood elves being the most attractive horde race in WoW.  I had a female tauren and a male blood elf as my main and secondary.  As far as being an animal in an MMO, I wouldn't personally want to be unable to craft because I had no hands.  Crafting is the single most important MMO element to me personally.  (Some less-realistic fantasy set-ups like My Little Pony would allow things to be crafted with no hands, but meh.)  I also wouldn't want to have to pick a single animal form to wear the whole time  But I've played two shapeshifter characters where combat happened mainly in one animal forms, travel happened in another animal form, but crafting and such happened in human-ish form, and that worked fine and was fun; my old concept Gimmie Those Wings was fundamentally a shapeshifter game (inspired by EVO before Spore use EVO as inspiration to go a different direction), while WildWright has optional customizations by which players can make themselves look more animalistic, as well as pet monsters.  I also played one pet-user character where one of my abilities was to "possess" the body of one of my pets, then do things using that animal form.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaMember Posts: 782 Uncommon

    I have to point out the reason the blood elf is the most attractive looking race to you is because it is close to looking human.

    Let me ask you this, why exactly are the orcs ugly? What if we where all born looking like orcs? Wouldn't we then find the Orcs to be attractive and the blood elves ugly?

    It's just psychology, humans will always be attracted to other humans. Humans will always relate more to other humans.

     

    Now this isn't to say we can't find any other race as attractive. We certainly can, but you have to keep in mind most people will always opt to choose human. This is based on many studies not only in games, but scientific studies as well, I only used WoW as an example. However, you can take a look and majority of games out there and you will have a higher percentage of human.

    BTW ...

    Sorry I am a bit of a science geek, I love my facts and information.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember Posts: 1,393 Uncommon
    The blood elves are more attractive than the human or night elf races too.  In general the older race models didn't have the artistic quality that the newer ones do - blood elves are an expansion race.  But either way, my personal experience has been that humans (those playing a fantasy or science fiction game anyway) will always prefer humans+ to realistic humans.  By humans+ I mean they have some kind of exotic accessory.  (A similar phenomenon to how a human wearing lingerie is more interesting than the same human is naked.)  Wings, tails, horns, and animal ears or pointed elf ears seem to be the most popular kinds of accessory, though fangs are popular too, forehead or nose ridges ala Star Trek, and of course non-realistic hair colors and eye colors.  The teeth are actually one of the most attractive traits of the orcs; it's mainly their skin color, often dirty-looking hair, and racial reputation as being dumb that put people off.  But yeah the psychology of it is really interesting. :)
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • KenFisherKenFisher Northwest, INMember Posts: 5,035 Uncommon

    Jumping in and waving a hello to SunAndShadow.

     

    I've read some of your stuff regarding design, and we think a lot alike.  Just touching base as this conversation is on the edge of a couple personal interests of mine.

     

    I've done a bunch of private project MMO coding, based off the Torque engine(s) and an MMO framework that's just about completely dead (http://www.MMOWorkshop.com).  Although a few months off at a time, I'd say about 5 years total.

     

    I had a fluke event happen that completely blew my focus.  In WAC alpha, a caster shot a fireball at another player (combat system was tab-target).  The fireball tracked through an NPC, hit it, and did damage to it.  This was NOT supposed to happen.  However it made me realize that the engine could be re-written so that aimed projectile spells could work.

     

    My emotional reaction:  Holy-Shit... this could be reworked to play like Morrowind !!!

     

    Well, it took me multiple failures and about 18 months work, but I got it running.

     

    This left me with a few problems:

    1.  Motivation is gone.  After 5 years, I'm TIRED of MMO coding.

    2.  I'm disillusioned with the MMO community.  I'm disillusioned with MMO design trends.  I had become a grumpy old hater, but that faded and now I couldn't care less.

    3.  I don't think Morrowind gameplay would adapt well to a traditional MMO framework.  I see more potential with a design like GuildWars1 and instancing solo and group coop, plus having an overland that's open world.  When I cancelled WAC, that was my plan, but I'm finding myself with a "why bother" attitude.


    Oh well, pardon that this went long.  Just saying hello and telling my story.  I have video showing last progress, if you'd like to see it.  Shout if you do, or PM me and I'll send you a link.

     

    ----------------------------------------

     

    Sample of an interior shader backed by C++ in the engine that I wrote doing relief mapping with baked in normals for individual light handling per vertex.  The shaping / shading you see is all fake.  The floors, walls, and ceiling are completely flat.

    image

    Although engines like Unreal do this well, pulling this off in Torque was a small miracle.

    Same on terrain (similar shader, different C++ in the engine):

    image

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
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