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Another critique of the genre from a vet
crazzyjake
Member Posts: 19
I'll get straight to the point, and this is only from my point of view and personal experience in many games old and new. I know we all have varying opinions about where our beloved genre goes from here and I am only expressing what I think is missing in the games of today and those on the horizon.
First and foremost in my mind is the complete shift from social to solo content. I understand that creating a game with a large amount of soloable content brings in another audience for the devs and thus a large market and more money. But it completely detracts from the ONE aspect that is supposed to be at the heart of these games. Should there be soloable content? absolutely. Should you be able to accomplish the majority of a games content solo, as well as progress just as fast or FASTER by doing only soloable content? Absolutely freaking not! These games used to be designed with the thought that grouping was not only faster for progression but MANDATORY for it. I have read in other places that there is actually debate about if a game should force grouping on players, in my mind it should be built into the framework for all but the most mundane hunting and questing. And I am not referring to the kind of grouping where 10 players come upon a mob, with no need to group or communicate and take down said mob and magically everyone gets exp (zerging is killing our games people). Grouping means organization and for gods sakes SOCIAL INTERACTION! In my opinion this is one of the main reasons why population numbers flame out so soon after release for these new games. Content brings people to a game but the relationships you develop and the time you invest in those relationships is what keeps a community going.
Another huge issue I have with todays direction of MMO's is the move towards vast amounts of instancing. It used to be the goal of devs was to make a "world" not a game. I know there are technology issues with this and I don't mind a minimal amount of zoning for a world for stabilization reasons, but the zones need to be LARGE, not tiny as many games have them now. And dungeon finders that magically pair you up with others and whisk you away to a dungeon located nowhere near your character is ridiculous and promotes the kind of competitive gameplay that eats away at a games community instead of promoting challenging cooperative gameplay as I believe is intended by places like dungeons. I understand the potential problems with getting rid of all dungeon instancing, mob camping and such, so as with overland zones I am not completely opposed to instancing certain parts of these places, maybe boss mobs should be instanced and on a timer. I don't know the best answer that will satisfy everyone but I do know the current state of queueing for a dungeon finder to pair me with other players whom I don't even need to speak with is plain awful, it may be more instant gratification but if you are going to be running a dungeon or camping in one it should take time and organization.
Lastly, it seems to me that the newer games are severally lacking in variety in terms of character customization. I am not talking purely aesthetically but gameplay. The new breed of games where one character can be all the classes and switch between them all? how am I supposed to feel unique like that. Or games where there may be a handful of classes, many of which serve the same purpose with similar mechanics but just with different weapons? I know people will complain about being pigeon holed into one role and that may get "boring" but I disagree. Having many classes and roles, some not even combat related, that only one character can focus on makes you a specialist. It gives you pride in how well you can play your class. Having one spell caster that can do single target dmg, group dmg, dot dmg, and can crowd control means that you have effectively made everyone who would pick to specialize in one of those diciplines into the same class. I would also like to know what happened to non combat utility? movement buffs, travel buffs ect, or just skills and spells that made you look or sound different for a while, fun things that DIFFERENTIATE you from everyone else. The move towards the middle where everyone can do everything makes it so the only way to seem different at all is to grind away at a gear treadmill that all leads to the same place for everyone.
I also take minor issue with the prevalence of "fast travel", you should have to work a bit harder to be magically teleported around the world. Little to no death penalty irks me also but I can't figure out a good way to fix that besides a massive gold or time sink, which I am sure doesn't appeal to most. And for final thought, I hate how ungodly fast progression is in games today, things I have mentioned already like solo content rewarding as well as group content, and fast travel are certainly direct causes of this but all of these changes to make our games casual is, in my opinion, killing our genre.
Just my opinion folks, sorry for the long post, thanks for reading. Unfortunately, I don't see any of these tendencies changing for the better anytime soon, in fact I am not even aware of any game on the horizon that addresses them.
Comments
Yup todays games have all of these problems.
By the way I believe there are separate threads for each of these problems as well. Knock yourself out!!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.
Psssst... I hear ya! I didn't want to spoil his day though!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Thats great, Rock! Now we can start blaming the wannabe vets under the age of 30 for all these problems.
When are people going to stop randomly tossing blame around on other gamers??
It just accomplishes nothing.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Why should customers "adapt" to anything? Corporations need to meet the demand, not dictate to customers what they want.
My gaming blog
Adapt to fact there is not enough demand to create a supply for a product of their desires.
Reading comprehension.
All good points from the OP.
My gripe is that there's simply nothing to do in the games but combat. Combat, combat and more combat. No platform for expression. No platform for roleplay. No thought is even given to the notion that simply partaking in a work of shared fiction is, in itself, worth something.
When all there is to do is combat, combat and more combat, what's the real point of grouping with anyone at all? Why is it even such a big deal to have a matchmaker? A dungeon finder? We act as if the death of grouping led to the lack of sociability. It was actually the other way around: the lack of sociability is the thing that killed grouping. Because, seriously, there's no point in grouping anymore when the games are just about mashing buttons in combat all the time. What game do we give the people who suck at combat, have no group who will take them, and pay for some entertainment?
We never had to worry about forced grouping in the old MMOs. There was plenty, plenty of things to do even if you sucked at combat. And so, you could solo all kinds of things in the old games...because the essence of the social game wasn't about combat and loots. It was about all the stuff when you weren't doing combat: trade, pub life, houses, guild halls, roleplay, shared storytelling.
See OP, where I'm sitting, I'd much rather do the combat solo. I don't want to have to go through all the guild crap, ePeen, drama, "O crap! I got 2 log! kthnxbye" and all that. It wastes time for things that I consider to be, in the greater scheme of things, the "housekeeping" and "chores" of my MMO existence.
The real reason I did those things, back in the day, is so I could get to the real action: playing in character, crafting plots, checking in with the neighbors, trading goods, going on dates and hanging out...you know, "living a virtual life." Sadly, I don't get any of that anymore in the new games. There are no neighborhoods these days. There are no tools for expression. There are no interesting characters or interesting things to do.
Instead, "combat combat combat" is all there is to do...if you aren't setting up for combat or doing combat, there's no reason to even be logged on. So why complicate it by imposing groups? There's really no point in getting to know these characters I see, because there really isn't anything--outside of functional competence--that makes them matter in these worlds without depth.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I agree with the original poster on most of his points.
I played EverQuest 1 for the first 5 years of it's life. Quests offered almost zero XP. To level, you got a group together and either dungeon crawled or camped a spot and repeatedly killed mobs as they spawned. As a warrior, I could do nothing solo. It was absolute forced grouping to progress my character. Though it was frustrating at times, it brought a social aspect that I have not seen in any game I have played since.
You actually knew the people in your community, not just your guildmates. You knew who a lot of the good players were, as well as the asshats that you wanted to avoid. I had more people on my friend's list in that game than all others combined since.
Most AAA MMOs now are single player games until endgame when you grind gear. There is no real incentive to group with people outside of your guild.
I think EverQuest 1 went too far to extremes in some areas, but they did a lot right to promote community. I doubt we will see a game do it again and be successful, but we can always hope.
Who says they're not ?
For all the games that get called failed mmos, they sure seem to have a nasty habit of not going off line.
................No offense but you are an idiot. What he is saying is exactly whats wrong with MMOs these days, not a matter of "adapting". There is no sense of community in MMOs anymore. They are way too easy with little risk for anything you do. People don't play this genre anymore to be immersed in a world and to have fun with your friends, it's just a race to see who can "beat" the game the fastest and get the best gear. You don't need anyone to be successful anymore you can just join a queue for a raid or a dungeon and gear up easy.
For the MMO gamers who started with WoW I feel sorry for you. You guys never got a chance to really experience what an MMO truly can offer. All we are anymore to these game makers is just mouse in a maze. Sure we get to the end of the maze only to end up in yet another maze time and time again.
Thanks for nicely illustrating my point.
The MMOs has changed, like all is changing, but you failed to adapt/accept the change.
That is not a game issue, that is your personal problem no one cares of.
You call him an idiot, but you don't really understand what a "player problem" is. You list things you think are wrong like it's a fact...what if the people playing don't want those things and go to the games that offer what they do want. Maybe that's how the genre got to where it is....which is exactly what that " idiot" said.
You really can't have it both ways. Simply deciding not to use a system that defeats the entire essence of exploration and reliance on others can't work unless the majority do as well. We all know most people like the path of least resistance.
Fast travel should be handled like it used to be. Need to get somewhere fast? Better make some mage friends that can telaport you or shout for one since those services are always created by the players.
I felt like that at one point. Maybe I will again. I hope not. I try to enjoy mmos as best I can for what they are. I love to geek out on them, talk about the pros and cons etc.
It is easy to become cynical over time. Especially with so much time invested. Its a dangerous path. Obviously these forums do not help. They are ripe with negativity and you can be affirmed of your negative views any time you like. It just reinforces bad dispositions and I see a lot of people that seem generally unhappy about not just games but other subjects that get brought up here.
Anyway, I hope we all can first be content with ourselves and the rest hopefully will follow. thanks
now i wonder why we have to "teach" those developer about how to make MMORPGs .
When talk to them don't work , let time and failure teach them.
Also , what i want to see now wasn't they change they mind and created a properly MMORPG .
What i want to see now is tools that allow people who know little or don't know programming created they own MMOs instead waiting for someone else.
Not enough demand lol.
Star Citizen: realistic graphics, harsh death penalty, open world, incentive for social cooperation. 300,000 pre-orders. Eat your hat.
Shouldn't be named calling, I agree. However, it's pretty obvious that the genre got to where it is because of publisher consolidation, not because there is no market for this type of MMO. Publishers don't want to make a game that won't earn WoW numbers. They are obsessed, obsessed with pulling a "WoW".
The irony is that if they just made a solid game that catered to a niche audience, it would have a chance to explode. Like Star Citizen. They will realize, but it will be too late for them. Some independent developer will get there first. And it's well deserved. EA and all these other moronic publishers deserve to burn and die in a fiery death with their failed games.
If ANY business wants my money, they will give me what *I* want, not expect me to "adapt" to what they produce. If not, I will gladly keep my money.
I don't buy a sedan when I want a pick up.
I don't buy brussel sprouts.
I don't buy women's lingerie. Or dresses. (really! I don't!)
I don't buy First Person Shooter games anymore, though I did buy Doom.
I don't buy Apple computers.
However, in the OP's post, I disagree that grouping is a social activity vs. soloing. When I am in a group, I am social with 5-40 other people, if they take the time to even be social. When I am NOT in a group, I am social with anyone else I come across in the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I will also get straight to the point,
Your post was based on a false premise.
I will start with Ultima Online, only because previous MMO's didn't have the label. UO was almost 100% soloable. Was easy to forget that wasn't it?
Asherons Call 1. Almost entirely 100% soloable short of a few major bosses and elite dungeons.
Anarchy Online, all but the dungeons were soloable.
SWG, that's right...until they nerfed the ability to have two At-at's out at once and three pets out it was almost 100% soloable...and even after they did, it was still almost entirely soloable.
There you go, 4 out of the first 10 MMORPGs, very very solo friendly.
It isn't that games are becoming more solo friendly, its that PEOPLE are becoming more solo friendly and so do it. Guess that is what happens when guilds turn games into a damn job with raid schedules and gear reqs...took the fun right out of PLAYING and instead made raiding a freaking profession, that plus always waiting waiting waiting for all group members to get their crap together.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson