Was playing last night and watching the Help channel when I saw the name of a guy who was in our guild. He left because things slowed down. So I sent a PM, said "Hi, long time no see." We chatted for about 15 mins, I was just putzing around with some missions.
Anyway he asks, can you help me with a mission? Normally I just kind of do my own thing, but he was a good guy so I said sure. Had to switch toons, and travel a bit to get where he was. He waits, I get there and off we go. Turns out we die on our first attempt. So I asked another friend to help and she said yes. We wait for her to come and then go in and finish off the mission.
He asks if we want to do one more. Sure that was fun lets go! Finished that off too.
Then we say our goodbyes and head off to do our own thing.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
The reason most socializing is in private groups is because that is the kind of play style encouraged by the game design.
No ..it isn't. The reason most socializing has evolved into private groups is because general chat is unmoderated and populated by the lowest common denominator. People don't like to pugs because of the types of people you run into...all the time. you don't talk in a pug because if you're forced to be in one, the fastest way to get it over with and not deal with the typical mmo moron is just do the dungeon/quest as fast as possible and don't provoke any of them by actually talking to them.
Not everyone wants to chat with anyone that will answer back. Like in real life people want to be around and socialize with like minded people. These large communities of gamers all have one thing in common. They're moderated, they have a CoC and the bad elements get removed. So they become much more appealing to people to get involved in and shutting out the rest of the gaming world is just a side effect of this.
Go read the solo vrs group play thread some time and take note of what you see come up over and over and over....and over. People stop grouping because of bad experiences in pugs. Private groups is the solution to people who really want to stay social but refuse to pug anymore.
It has nothing at all to do with the game doesn't force me to chat so I wont...to anyone. Anyone that really wants to be social in a game finds a way to do it.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
I perfectly understand the article. The name of this thread is "Why I like downtime and other time consuming things". That does not only point at combat.
Then the part you didn't understand is the specific type of downtime the OP is referring to which is forced downtime during combat - medding, regen and other processes that "effectively slowed the leveling process."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The reason most socializing is in private groups is because that is the kind of play style encouraged by the game design.
No ..it isn't. The reason most socializing has evolved into private groups is because general chat is unmoderated and populated by the lowest common denominator. People don't like to pugs because of the types of people you run into...all the time.
So you're saying that the game rewards and encourages people to get by, while still being total dicks...know why? Because you don't ever need other players in a game. In an old game, if someone wanted to get the best out of their experience, they'd behave or be ostracized. Modern games encourage you to play alone, so this kind of player can run amok.
"Like in real life people want to be around and socialize with like minded people." Exactly, and if an MMO encouraged socializing through incentivized mechanics and downtime socializing activities, social people would play MMOs. Whereas right now, trying to get someone to actually talk in local chat in GW2 is like pulling teeth.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
I perfectly understand the article. The name of this thread is "Why I like downtime and other time consuming things". That does not only point at combat.
Then the part you didn't understand is the specific type of downtime the OP is referring to which is forced downtime during combat - medding, regen and other processes that "effectively slowed the leveling process."
That is a piece of it, but the topic is more broad than just combat downtime (which, in moderation, I agree is a good thing. Pacing is important, peaks and valleys. If everything is a straight line, you don't notice it.)
The reason most socializing is in private groups is because that is the kind of play style encouraged by the game design.
No ..it isn't. The reason most socializing has evolved into private groups is because general chat is unmoderated and populated by the lowest common denominator. People don't like to pugs because of the types of people you run into...all the time.
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by TibernicuspaOriginally posted by lizardbones
Even so, players still have the option to socialize as much as they want in any MMORPG that they play. There is nothing stopping them. If players are not socializing, they don't want to. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do is not going to increase the life of the game. Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?What data?The fact that no AAA WoW clone in the last 8 years has managed to grow in population over time? Data that is backed up by several books on game theory, written by people who made the MMOs that DID grow over time.
They grew to a smaller size than newer AAA games. They also lacked the pervasive information awareness that exists today. With more information awareness, they would have grown faster. They also, like current games, peaked and then declined. Not only that, but the idea that slow adoption means "better" is just wrong. Slow adoption is no better or worse than fast adoption. They just look different.
The link shows two sets of data. Exact same numbers, one representing slow adoption, the other representing quick adoption. The exact same set of numbers, just in a different order. One is not better than the other, both are the same, they just look different.
Also, if anyone knows how to link to an image in Google Drive that works as an "img" tag, I'd love to hear it. :-) My point would be so much more evident if people could see the picture instead of clicking on the link.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
He is talking specifically about the downtime at monster spawn points, which is a big issue in itself, not about downtime in general.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard I play MMOs since UO beta and I never needed game mechanics to force me to engage in social interactions... I socialize just as well in today's MMOs than in those 15 years ago.
That seems to be a HUGE difference between the exEQ players and the exUO players. The former needed to be forced to stop grinding to talk to each other and the latter actually built taverns, arenas and entire villages to do nothing but socialize with either other. This has been consistent not only in the games they played but in the positions they drifted toward when they entered the industry. A lot of exEQers went into designing MMORPGs, which explains a lot of the reiteration of the DikuMUD/EQ formula, and many exUOers went into community management and the development of virtual worlds."This is because socializing as an activity in MMORPGs is hopelessly inferior to socializing anywhere else. In 1996, socializing in MMORPGs was probably superior to other forms of online socialization, especially for gamers. In 2004, it probably still was. Today? Not even close." - LizardBonesSpot on. We've come a long way from IRC, Roger Wilco and ICQ. The types of social channels and number of virtual communities that people participate in online are astronomically greater than before the turn of the century. The novelty of "Holy cow! I'm talking to someone in [far country]!" is long gone. People have settled into their various communities and, in many cases, their social circles and their gaming circles are very different. One can easily see this for themselves by looking at their FB and Twitter lists. Gaming life for most is distinctly separate groups or even separate channels from their social life.
I agree with the difference, yet wonder how "crowded" MMO Taverns and Inns are these days. There is nothing to be "gained" by hanging out there. No XP awarded, no achievements to be had, no new gear to be won. Just... chat.
I guess my point is that MMOs can not control the interaction, but players certainly do. I find most players are sorely lacking in the "social" department.
Socializing is one aspect of downtime, but my favorite aspect is leveling speed. There is also a sense of believability. The only thing *I* regenerate with any speed is stamina. My broken bones still take weeks to heal. Getting over the flu takes days. A bruise sticks around for days before fading away. None of these get better "automatically." They require a bit if attention to help recover/heal.
It would be nice to NOT have to game mechanics in place to "encourage" socialization, but most players today need the encouragement to take a break and slow down their race to max level. I have been told in groups to shut up and keep up. I quit the group immediately afterward. I have also found groups that had fun and enjoyment in the gameplay, including chatting. Those instances are becoming more rare.
Think about MMOs today. To encourage players to explore, they give XP for finding areas or shiny points of interest. To encourage players to craft, they hand out XP or let companions do it all instead of the players. Games seem to have to encourage players to do almost every activity in the game as most players will not do anything that does not give some kind of in-game reward. I think that says more about the players than the games. What is wrong with MMOs encouraging players to socialize?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch.
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You mean all five or six of the mainstream options that were available from 1997 to 2005? It's no great stretch to see how a climate with far fewer competitors might lead to accelerated or increasing growth in a new genre of games.
If you want to talk numbers though, take a look at how precipitously those early MMOs' pattern of growth fell off beginning around 2003. By the time 2004 rolled around all the giants in the West-- UO, EQ, DAoC, FFXI, and SWG had all been hit by a plateau and were beginning their decline. That's before WoW, before the themepark, before any excuses about dumbing down content or removing downtime. Actually looking at the sub numbers challenges so many of the preconceptions about how bulletproof the early games were and how greatly all the so-called WoW-clones have failed.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
He is talking specifically about the downtime at monster spawn points, which is a big issue in itself, not about downtime in general.
Has anybody read that article at all?
Flame on!
That's what I said. It's hard to tell from what you wrote and your wiseass closing if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Was playing last night and watching the Help channel when I saw the name of a guy who was in our guild. He left because things slowed down. So I sent a PM, said "Hi, long time no see." We chatted for about 15 mins, I was just putzing around with some missions.
Anyway he asks, can you help me with a mission? Normally I just kind of do my own thing, but he was a good guy so I said sure. Had to switch toons, and travel a bit to get where he was. He waits, I get there and off we go. Turns out we die on our first attempt. So I asked another friend to help and she said yes. We wait for her to come and then go in and finish off the mission.
He asks if we want to do one more. Sure that was fun lets go! Finished that off too.
Then we say our goodbyes and head off to do our own thing.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
I wasn't looking for any reward. At that moment I just felt like helping out. I knew him but even when he was in the clan I don't think we ever did more together than chat. Not sure what your point is here? My point was, that I didn't need the game to tell me to do this, I made up my own mind to do it.
Later that night I saw a random, fairly inexperienced guy asking for help with a quest he probably shouldn't have been doing. I thought what the hell I might as well help this guy just for a laugh. I PM'ed him too and told him I would help but I also explained it was going to cost me my time and money to do this. Just so he knew what was at stake for me. Anyway I started having second thoughts. What if I travel all this way spend the money and he doesn't wait, or some guy comes along before I get there?
Next he tells me some guy is coming to help. I said I hope his level is high enough or you might both die. LOL it turns out the guy was max level. So basically the guy could just sit on his butt and do nothing which is something I also disagree with. The guy may have been acting in a social manner but in doing so, he was just making the game too easy for that guy. Next thing happens is they all want help whenever things get a little tough instead of waiting and improving their toon.
Anyway my point here is that I socialized with someone but chose not to help. And the game did not force me or reward me for that either. I like to make my own decisions as to how and why I socialize. That works best for me. Not sure about you.
Edit: Actually I just remembered again, that's why I like FE. its very sandboxy in that it lets you play the game the way you want. Doesn't force you to do much at all, it just lets you play. Good game.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch.
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You mean all five or six of the mainstream options that were available from 1997 to 2005? It's no great stretch to see how a climate with far fewer competitors might lead to accelerated or increasing growth in a new genre of games.
There were several dozen MMOs available pre WoW. And the number of users with computers capable of playing them, or people even aware of the genre, was much lower.
Size of the market increased proportionally to the number of games, more or less, so you can still compare the data.
And that data is, AO, AC, DAoC, UO, EQ, SWG, EQ2, Eve, all hit their population peaks AFTER launch.
They have many things in common, and many essays can be written about why they retained players while modern MMOs don't, but at the end of the day, claiming that its normal for MMOs to crash and burn after launch is foolish.
Was playing last night and watching the Help channel when I saw the name of a guy who was in our guild. He left because things slowed down. So I sent a PM, said "Hi, long time no see." We chatted for about 15 mins, I was just putzing around with some missions.
Anyway he asks, can you help me with a mission? Normally I just kind of do my own thing, but he was a good guy so I said sure. Had to switch toons, and travel a bit to get where he was. He waits, I get there and off we go. Turns out we die on our first attempt. So I asked another friend to help and she said yes. We wait for her to come and then go in and finish off the mission.
He asks if we want to do one more. Sure that was fun lets go! Finished that off too.
Then we say our goodbyes and head off to do our own thing.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
I wasn't looking for any reward. At that moment I just felt like helping out. I knew him but even when he was in the clan I don't think we ever did more together than chat. Not sure what your point is here?
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard Originally posted by ArclanOriginally posted by Jean-Luc_PicardI play MMOs since UO beta and I never needed game mechanics to force me to engage in social interactions... I socialize just as well in today's MMOs than in those 15 years ago.
I am always skeptical when I hear this. How many new friends have you made, and in which games? Describe one recent experience how you made a lasting MMO friend. Where did you meet him/her; how did the conversation start; how many times after your initial meeting did you chat together?Call me a liar while you're at it, that will make it more simple for you.
I won't count the hundreds of people who joined my guilds in those two games, but only those I can call "close MMO friends". In just SW:TOR and GW2, there is a core group of 16 new people I can call "MMO friends" now, and we fully intend to play the upcoming games (EQN, TESO, etc...) together. Even when some of us are "between two games", we stay in contact on our forum. That isn't counting the many other friends (among which several who became real life friends) I made in previous games, and with whom I stay in contact using other social medias and more direct ways like letters and phone calls. One is even born the same day than me (albeit he is many years younger, lucky guy), so I always send him a birthday present.
Some people need games to force them to interact. Others don't. I'm glad to be part of the second group.
Why would I call you a liar? BTW, talking with your guild or asking someone "hey man want to join my gild?" isn't what we meant when we spoke about making friends.
The only themepark - zero downtime game I played was Vanguard. And I made absolutely no lasting friends. Not one. It's like I'd bump into some people doing a quest; have a friendly hour or two with them; then never see them again anywhere in the game world. It was bizarre.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch.
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You mean all five or six of the mainstream options that were available from 1997 to 2005? It's no great stretch to see how a climate with far fewer competitors might lead to accelerated or increasing growth in a new genre of games.
There were several dozen MMOs available pre WoW. And the number of users with computers capable of playing them, or people even aware of the genre, was much lower.
Size of the market increased proportionally to the number of games, more or less, so you can still compare the data.
And that data is, AO, AC, DAoC, UO, EQ, SWG, EQ2, Eve, all hit their population peaks AFTER launch.
They have many things in common, and many essays can be written about why they retained players while modern MMOs don't, but at the end of the day, claiming that its normal for MMOs to crash and burn after launch is foolish.
Well admittedly it hards to hit your peak population before launch isn't it.
That being said, I believe it was Lizardbones (and I agree with it) that the growth (to smaller numbers generally) of past games was due more to the limited methods of communicating about games when compared to today.
Nothing to do with whether the game was actually good or fun.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action.
And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
Thank you. Would love to see this data as well. Also, based on all the evidence we actually do have, the general rule is that MMOs don't grow their playerbase consistently for long periods after launch.
Wrong. WoW clones and themeparks generally don't.
Pre WoW MMOs didn't peak until YEARS after their launch.
You mean all five or six of the mainstream options that were available from 1997 to 2005? It's no great stretch to see how a climate with far fewer competitors might lead to accelerated or increasing growth in a new genre of games.
There were several dozen MMOs available pre WoW. And the number of users with computers capable of playing them, or people even aware of the genre, was much lower.
Size of the market increased proportionally to the number of games, more or less, so you can still compare the data.
And that data is, AO, AC, DAoC, UO, EQ, SWG, EQ2, Eve, all hit their population peaks AFTER launch.
They have many things in common, and many essays can be written about why they retained players while modern MMOs don't, but at the end of the day, claiming that its normal for MMOs to crash and burn after launch is foolish.
Well admittedly it hards to hit your peak population before launch isn't it.
That being said, I believe it was Lizardbones (and I agree with it) that the growth (to smaller numbers generally) of past games was due more to the limited methods of communicating about games when compared to today.
Nothing to do with whether the game was actually good or fun.
Then how do you explain games like Eve, which is STILL growing, despite being a well known MMO for so long? Because its mechanics encourage people to form bonds and stay longer. It's a social MMO with endless content. Not a singleplayer MMO where you run instances then leave when you've completed the story.
It's shockingly obvious why modern MMOs don't retain players, and lack of socialization is a big part of that. What keeps you going when you've done all the content in an MMO? Your friends.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
Well I think I have stated in other threads that I disagree that MMO's are mostly antisocial. It does depend on the MMO, though I will give you that. And there are quite few where socialization is not necessary as far as grouping and such.
But still, just because you don't have to group in an MMO, does not mean that can't group or socialize with other players. If an instance or dungeon is easy enough to solo, what prevents you from say, taking off some high level armor and using less potent weapons or something. Go in with a group and everybody takes turns with a mob while the rest can criticize and ridicule your technique. You know mix it up!
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO? Its simply a matter of communicating and that seems possible in just about every MMO. How did you meet your friends in real life? Was it by an arranged grouping where you were all called to one location and given name tags and told to perform some task? Possibly but I find the best friends just happen randomly. You never know who they may be until you try.
The choice is up to you.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO?
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
I can't group with people who don't want to group, and who level faster solo.
I can't talk to people who don't read local chat, because they don't need to.
A game with mechanics that encourage socializing will draw in social players, and make the general atmosphere easier to socialize in. A game that is mostly about soloing will attract players who have no interest in socializing. I can't socialize by myself.
As I said a thousand times in this thread, players will always take the path of least resistance and most reward. It guides how they play. If the path of most reward is grouping and socializing, people will do it, unless they HATE being around other players, in which case they'll play a different MMO.
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO?
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
Disagree with this but your other points are valid.
So if the problem is with the games, I assume you are trying to tell us then that there are no game out at present that encourage socializing. I would disagree with that also. It could be that all you want is the forced grouping thing. I disagree that this encourages socialization also. Most people just want to get through the instance as quick and as painlessly as possible and then never have anything to do with you again.
No the change in socialization is going to have to come from players I think. Go out of your way to socialize, even if the game does not make it easy. It usually only takes a few asshats in a game to start turning the entire community into one. Ignore them and seek out like minded players. Try and promote the community in the game, instead of complaining there isn't one.
Unfortunately you are sounding like a lot of the new generation. I have a problem. Fix it for me! Maybe try fixing it for yourself and see what happens.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Some interesting perspectives here, and I wanted to expand on my perspective of the difference with current generation games and how they address downtime.
Thinking about WoW, my downtime in that game was spent by and large in the capital cities, which the game designers built specifically to serve as social hubs. I found that a detrimental approach to downtime for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, as I've previously noted, I think large scale general chat doesn't work as well for quality socialisation as it's a less intimate context, and there's nothing to inhibit bad behaviour. If you're a total jerk and troll in general chat, there's no real consequence. This immediately lowers the "quality" of conversation. In a group context where you're working towards a common goal, you're less likely to want to be an idiot, and run the risk of getting booted and losing the benefits of the group if you are, it gently encourages better behaviour. "Barrens chat" lends weight to this perspective.
Some interesting perspectives here, and I wanted to expand on my perspective of the difference with current generation games and how they address downtime.
Thinking about WoW, my downtime in that game was spent by and large in the capital cities, which the game designers built specifically to serve as social hubs. I found that a detrimental approach to downtime for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, as I've previously noted, I think large scale general chat doesn't work as well for quality socialisation as it's a less intimate context, and there's nothing to inhibit bad behaviour. If you're a total jerk and troll in general chat, there's no real consequence. This immediately lowers the "quality" of conversation. In a group context where you're working towards a common goal, you're less likely to want to be an idiot, and run the risk of getting booted and losing the benefits of the group if you are, it gently encourages better behaviour. "Barrens chat" lends weight to this perspective.
I agree with you on the large scale general chat and would take it as far as the extremely primitive IRC-style chat window that most MMOs use - it's great for feeding information but crap for social interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO?
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
Disagree with this but your other points are valid.
So if the problem is with the games, I assume you are trying to tell us then that there are no game out at present that encourage socializing. No AAA WoW clones for sure. I've played games recently like Eve, Salem, and Darkfall that encourage socializing. I would disagree with that also. It could be that all you want is the forced grouping thing. I've never played a game with forced grouping, except WoW and LotRO, where you literally have group quest steps. In older MMOs grouping was encouraged and rewarding, but soloing was an option. It was just less rewarding, which makes sense, because it's less challenging to solo. I disagree that this encourages socialization also. Most people just want to get through the instance as quick and as painlessly as possible and then never have anything to do with you again. That's the case when the entire game except that instance is solo based.
No the change in socialization is going to have to come from players I think. It won't. Go out of your way to socialize, even if the game does not make it easy. I do, and am met with the brick wall of people not caring, or in cases like LotRO, the game actively discouraging you from playing with other people.
Unfortunately you are sounding like a lot of the new generation. I have a problem. Fix it for me! Maybe try fixing it for yourself and see what happens. I've watched the MMO genre change over 13 years. No fix is going to come from the community.
Well admittedly it hards to hit your peak population before launch isn't it.
That being said, I believe it was Lizardbones (and I agree with it) that the growth (to smaller numbers generally) of past games was due more to the limited methods of communicating about games when compared to today.
Nothing to do with whether the game was actually good or fun.
Then how do you explain games like Eve, which is STILL growing, despite being a well known MMO for so long? Because its mechanics encourage people to form bonds and stay longer. It's a social MMO with endless content. Not a singleplayer MMO where you run instances then leave when you've completed the story.
It's shockingly obvious why modern MMOs don't retain players, and lack of socialization is a big part of that. What keeps you going when you've done all the content in an MMO? Your friends.
And you would list Eve as a good example of an mmo where people don't form private groups that are not social with those people outside of it ? It's just one big happy social orgy where everyone chats with everyone ?
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The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
No ..it isn't. The reason most socializing has evolved into private groups is because general chat is unmoderated and populated by the lowest common denominator. People don't like to pugs because of the types of people you run into...all the time. you don't talk in a pug because if you're forced to be in one, the fastest way to get it over with and not deal with the typical mmo moron is just do the dungeon/quest as fast as possible and don't provoke any of them by actually talking to them.
Not everyone wants to chat with anyone that will answer back. Like in real life people want to be around and socialize with like minded people. These large communities of gamers all have one thing in common. They're moderated, they have a CoC and the bad elements get removed. So they become much more appealing to people to get involved in and shutting out the rest of the gaming world is just a side effect of this.
Go read the solo vrs group play thread some time and take note of what you see come up over and over and over....and over. People stop grouping because of bad experiences in pugs. Private groups is the solution to people who really want to stay social but refuse to pug anymore.
It has nothing at all to do with the game doesn't force me to chat so I wont...to anyone. Anyone that really wants to be social in a game finds a way to do it.
Then the part you didn't understand is the specific type of downtime the OP is referring to which is forced downtime during combat - medding, regen and other processes that "effectively slowed the leveling process."
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So you're saying that the game rewards and encourages people to get by, while still being total dicks...know why? Because you don't ever need other players in a game. In an old game, if someone wanted to get the best out of their experience, they'd behave or be ostracized. Modern games encourage you to play alone, so this kind of player can run amok.
"Like in real life people want to be around and socialize with like minded people." Exactly, and if an MMO encouraged socializing through incentivized mechanics and downtime socializing activities, social people would play MMOs. Whereas right now, trying to get someone to actually talk in local chat in GW2 is like pulling teeth.
That is a piece of it, but the topic is more broad than just combat downtime (which, in moderation, I agree is a good thing. Pacing is important, peaks and valleys. If everything is a straight line, you don't notice it.)
Glad we agree.
misquoting people works pretty well.
Actually, all data we have about online games an MMOs shows that forcing people to do things (which is entirely what games are anyway) is what keeps MMOs growing longer. And there's a fine line between forcing someone to do something and providing mechanics that encourage or reward an action. And to those saying "Games without downtime are selling more!", then how come there hasn't been a single WoW clone that's grown AFTER launch?
What data?
The fact that no AAA WoW clone in the last 8 years has managed to grow in population over time? Data that is backed up by several books on game theory, written by people who made the MMOs that DID grow over time.
They grew to a smaller size than newer AAA games. They also lacked the pervasive information awareness that exists today. With more information awareness, they would have grown faster. They also, like current games, peaked and then declined. Not only that, but the idea that slow adoption means "better" is just wrong. Slow adoption is no better or worse than fast adoption. They just look different.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9unA67DqP7fem82NHI0UnRsZ2c/edit?usp=sharing&pli=1
The link shows two sets of data. Exact same numbers, one representing slow adoption, the other representing quick adoption. The exact same set of numbers, just in a different order. One is not better than the other, both are the same, they just look different.
Also, if anyone knows how to link to an image in Google Drive that works as an "img" tag, I'd love to hear it. :-) My point would be so much more evident if people could see the picture instead of clicking on the link.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Wow without even a thought about this before you made me realize what I think is wrong with MMOs now in general/
I also think things have changed because Back in the UO and EQ days a majority of players had some or slight connections to Dungeons and Dragons.
EQ, UO and DAOC were in a class all their own and we will never see another game like them again.
He is talking specifically about the downtime at monster spawn points, which is a big issue in itself, not about downtime in general.
Has anybody read that article at all?
Flame on!
I guess my point is that MMOs can not control the interaction, but players certainly do. I find most players are sorely lacking in the "social" department.
Socializing is one aspect of downtime, but my favorite aspect is leveling speed. There is also a sense of believability. The only thing *I* regenerate with any speed is stamina. My broken bones still take weeks to heal. Getting over the flu takes days. A bruise sticks around for days before fading away. None of these get better "automatically." They require a bit if attention to help recover/heal.
It would be nice to NOT have to game mechanics in place to "encourage" socialization, but most players today need the encouragement to take a break and slow down their race to max level. I have been told in groups to shut up and keep up. I quit the group immediately afterward. I have also found groups that had fun and enjoyment in the gameplay, including chatting. Those instances are becoming more rare.
Think about MMOs today. To encourage players to explore, they give XP for finding areas or shiny points of interest. To encourage players to craft, they hand out XP or let companions do it all instead of the players. Games seem to have to encourage players to do almost every activity in the game as most players will not do anything that does not give some kind of in-game reward. I think that says more about the players than the games. What is wrong with MMOs encouraging players to socialize?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You mean all five or six of the mainstream options that were available from 1997 to 2005? It's no great stretch to see how a climate with far fewer competitors might lead to accelerated or increasing growth in a new genre of games.
If you want to talk numbers though, take a look at how precipitously those early MMOs' pattern of growth fell off beginning around 2003. By the time 2004 rolled around all the giants in the West-- UO, EQ, DAoC, FFXI, and SWG had all been hit by a plateau and were beginning their decline. That's before WoW, before the themepark, before any excuses about dumbing down content or removing downtime. Actually looking at the sub numbers challenges so many of the preconceptions about how bulletproof the early games were and how greatly all the so-called WoW-clones have failed.
That's what I said. It's hard to tell from what you wrote and your wiseass closing if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I wasn't looking for any reward. At that moment I just felt like helping out. I knew him but even when he was in the clan I don't think we ever did more together than chat. Not sure what your point is here? My point was, that I didn't need the game to tell me to do this, I made up my own mind to do it.
Later that night I saw a random, fairly inexperienced guy asking for help with a quest he probably shouldn't have been doing. I thought what the hell I might as well help this guy just for a laugh. I PM'ed him too and told him I would help but I also explained it was going to cost me my time and money to do this. Just so he knew what was at stake for me. Anyway I started having second thoughts. What if I travel all this way spend the money and he doesn't wait, or some guy comes along before I get there?
Next he tells me some guy is coming to help. I said I hope his level is high enough or you might both die. LOL it turns out the guy was max level. So basically the guy could just sit on his butt and do nothing which is something I also disagree with. The guy may have been acting in a social manner but in doing so, he was just making the game too easy for that guy. Next thing happens is they all want help whenever things get a little tough instead of waiting and improving their toon.
Anyway my point here is that I socialized with someone but chose not to help. And the game did not force me or reward me for that either. I like to make my own decisions as to how and why I socialize. That works best for me. Not sure about you.
Edit: Actually I just remembered again, that's why I like FE. its very sandboxy in that it lets you play the game the way you want. Doesn't force you to do much at all, it just lets you play. Good game.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
There were several dozen MMOs available pre WoW. And the number of users with computers capable of playing them, or people even aware of the genre, was much lower.
Size of the market increased proportionally to the number of games, more or less, so you can still compare the data.
And that data is, AO, AC, DAoC, UO, EQ, SWG, EQ2, Eve, all hit their population peaks AFTER launch.
They have many things in common, and many essays can be written about why they retained players while modern MMOs don't, but at the end of the day, claiming that its normal for MMOs to crash and burn after launch is foolish.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
Call me a liar while you're at it, that will make it more simple for you.
I won't count the hundreds of people who joined my guilds in those two games, but only those I can call "close MMO friends". In just SW:TOR and GW2, there is a core group of 16 new people I can call "MMO friends" now, and we fully intend to play the upcoming games (EQN, TESO, etc...) together. Even when some of us are "between two games", we stay in contact on our forum. That isn't counting the many other friends (among which several who became real life friends) I made in previous games, and with whom I stay in contact using other social medias and more direct ways like letters and phone calls. One is even born the same day than me (albeit he is many years younger, lucky guy), so I always send him a birthday present.
Some people need games to force them to interact. Others don't. I'm glad to be part of the second group.
Why would I call you a liar? BTW, talking with your guild or asking someone "hey man want to join my gild?" isn't what we meant when we spoke about making friends.
The only themepark - zero downtime game I played was Vanguard. And I made absolutely no lasting friends. Not one. It's like I'd bump into some people doing a quest; have a friendly hour or two with them; then never see them again anywhere in the game world. It was bizarre.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Well admittedly it hards to hit your peak population before launch isn't it.
That being said, I believe it was Lizardbones (and I agree with it) that the growth (to smaller numbers generally) of past games was due more to the limited methods of communicating about games when compared to today.
Nothing to do with whether the game was actually good or fun.
Then how do you explain games like Eve, which is STILL growing, despite being a well known MMO for so long? Because its mechanics encourage people to form bonds and stay longer. It's a social MMO with endless content. Not a singleplayer MMO where you run instances then leave when you've completed the story.
It's shockingly obvious why modern MMOs don't retain players, and lack of socialization is a big part of that. What keeps you going when you've done all the content in an MMO? Your friends.
Well I think I have stated in other threads that I disagree that MMO's are mostly antisocial. It does depend on the MMO, though I will give you that. And there are quite few where socialization is not necessary as far as grouping and such.
But still, just because you don't have to group in an MMO, does not mean that can't group or socialize with other players. If an instance or dungeon is easy enough to solo, what prevents you from say, taking off some high level armor and using less potent weapons or something. Go in with a group and everybody takes turns with a mob while the rest can criticize and ridicule your technique. You know mix it up!
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO? Its simply a matter of communicating and that seems possible in just about every MMO. How did you meet your friends in real life? Was it by an arranged grouping where you were all called to one location and given name tags and told to perform some task? Possibly but I find the best friends just happen randomly. You never know who they may be until you try.
The choice is up to you.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
I can't group with people who don't want to group, and who level faster solo.
I can't talk to people who don't read local chat, because they don't need to.
A game with mechanics that encourage socializing will draw in social players, and make the general atmosphere easier to socialize in. A game that is mostly about soloing will attract players who have no interest in socializing. I can't socialize by myself.
As I said a thousand times in this thread, players will always take the path of least resistance and most reward. It guides how they play. If the path of most reward is grouping and socializing, people will do it, unless they HATE being around other players, in which case they'll play a different MMO.
Disagree with this but your other points are valid.
So if the problem is with the games, I assume you are trying to tell us then that there are no game out at present that encourage socializing. I would disagree with that also. It could be that all you want is the forced grouping thing. I disagree that this encourages socialization also. Most people just want to get through the instance as quick and as painlessly as possible and then never have anything to do with you again.
No the change in socialization is going to have to come from players I think. Go out of your way to socialize, even if the game does not make it easy. It usually only takes a few asshats in a game to start turning the entire community into one. Ignore them and seek out like minded players. Try and promote the community in the game, instead of complaining there isn't one.
Unfortunately you are sounding like a lot of the new generation. I have a problem. Fix it for me! Maybe try fixing it for yourself and see what happens.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Some interesting perspectives here, and I wanted to expand on my perspective of the difference with current generation games and how they address downtime.
Thinking about WoW, my downtime in that game was spent by and large in the capital cities, which the game designers built specifically to serve as social hubs. I found that a detrimental approach to downtime for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, as I've previously noted, I think large scale general chat doesn't work as well for quality socialisation as it's a less intimate context, and there's nothing to inhibit bad behaviour. If you're a total jerk and troll in general chat, there's no real consequence. This immediately lowers the "quality" of conversation. In a group context where you're working towards a common goal, you're less likely to want to be an idiot, and run the risk of getting booted and losing the benefits of the group if you are, it gently encourages better behaviour. "Barrens chat" lends weight to this perspective.
I agree with you on the large scale general chat and would take it as far as the extremely primitive IRC-style chat window that most MMOs use - it's great for feeding information but crap for social interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And you would list Eve as a good example of an mmo where people don't form private groups that are not social with those people outside of it ? It's just one big happy social orgy where everyone chats with everyone ?