On the topic of online game payment models and real life socio-economic status, I've always had a very positive outlook on the potential of free to play models. When done well - and there are examples of some great f2p models - the game remains completely fair for everyone regardless of how much money is spent; that is, when vanity items, usually grounded in aesthetics, act as the foundation of the cash shop. League of Legends, for example, makes almost its entire living off of skin sales. This then enables those who don't have the money to spare to play, sometimes literally, for free. Conversely, those who have the money to spare (ie. those who are ok with dropping a couple hundred bucks per month on entertainment, like going out to dinner/movies/clubs/concerts/sporting events/trips), will be incentivized to do so and will become the dominant funders of the game.
It's no secret that with many f2p games, the overwhelming majority never spend a dime. It's all about the ARPPU (average revenue per paying user.) As long as advantages aren't able to be bought, this is a very good thing for 'poor gamers'. It's sort of like gaming socialism. Everyone can give according to their means and still game according to their fullest desires.
On the topic of the OP's existential crisis, that's just something you need to work out on your own, OP. Only you can determine what a life well spent is to you and then try to live your life accordingly. I would advise against going on a personal crusade to try and get anyone and everyone you talk to to conform to your ideals though.
You know, what I want is, that ALL stuff you can get in a game is either loot, reward by adventure and the entire rest is CRAFTED BY PLAYERS.
Like in SWG or UO.
All you can buy you buy solely from ingame currency from crafters. Period. Paragraph.
There is nothing you get from Dollars and Euros.
All is crafted and sold ingame.
End of story.
Then you have your free market, but it is IN THE GAME. You don't get more because you can afford more in RL.
I want that what you are in a game shows your achievement and work IN THAT GAME. I want that if you have a title or a mount or a house you have it because you achieved that IN THE GAME BY PLAYING THE GAME AND NOTHING ELSE.
This.
Do you apply this same drive in the real world?
Hehe yes. XD XD You should see me explode about politics.
I take all things with fire, or not at all. I am not a person for half assed approaches.
So you feel that unless you explode with fire, it's half-assed?
I ususally think exploding in fire yields half-assed results.
Interesting.
I know from experience that yeah maybe sometimes being too much on fire can harm the strategy. But I can't help it. I always was passionate about things.
[mod edit]
And HELL YES. Its yes or no, black or white, true or false! You ride into battle with cavalry yelling and then let the (s)words decide!
Tally-ho!
I'd want it no other way. The only limit I put on myself: I do not do personal attacks. I fight over ideas, thoughts, views, not people.
But after the battle they always end up at the table figuring out what needs to be done.
So just skip the battle and get to that part whenever possible.
In life, alas, the old ideas are always the enemy of the new ideas. So before you can built something anew you must first wreck the old system. It stands in the way. And as you see it has plenty of followers yet.
I mean, it's just a spare time hobby, so what gives? But it is dear to me, as I am sure many of us, so I feel it went a bad way in recent years. Just look at what companies like EA do to gaming, and you have the problem of the entire game industry in a nutshell.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open.
I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.
Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.
Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.
.....there are a lot more "Free to pay" games out there with a locked box system and keys from an ingame shop.
*Lord Of the Rings (LotRO)
*Team Fortress 2
*TERA
*SWTOR
*AION
*Vanguard
*Star Trek Online
*Defiance
*PerfectWorld
*LEGO Lord Of The Rings - Middle Earth
*Plants Vs Zombies
*DC Universe Online
*Allods Online
*City Of Heroes
...............to be continued
I haven't seen any in Vanguard, swtor or dcuo - if they are there maybe I've just been lucky.
I never saw them in CoH and I played that one a lot. CoH didn't even have loot, just temporary enhancers and things to build with, so I am confident in saying it did not have lockboxes. It did have the ancient lockbox that villians could destroy in missions, but that wasn't a loot item, it was also before it went f2p.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar In the games I've played (mentioned above) i've never actually seen the locked chests that I couldn't open.
I have to agree with this. I have yet come across a game to do this lol. Guess I only play all the right games. :P Either that .. or I am lucky.
Heck .. most of the F2P games .. didn't put ads in front of my face either. At least not while gaming.
Rift, Gw2 and Neverwinter come to mind...there could be others.
.....there are a lot more "Free to pay" games out there with a locked box system and keys from an ingame shop.
*Lord Of the Rings (LotRO)
*Team Fortress 2
*TERA
*SWTOR
*AION
*Vanguard
*Star Trek Online
*Defiance
*PerfectWorld
*LEGO Lord Of The Rings - Middle Earth
*Plants Vs Zombies
*DC Universe Online
*Allods Online
*City Of Heroes
...............to be continued
I haven't seen any in Vanguard, swtor or dcuo - if they are there maybe I've just been lucky.
I never saw them in CoH and I played that one a lot. CoH didn't even have loot, just temporary enhancers and things to build with, so I am confident in saying it did not have lockboxes. It did have the ancient lockbox that villians could destroy in missions, but that wasn't a loot item, it was also before it went f2p.
Well, I did google a bit to get an overview and this is just the result from a couple of pages.
Jim Sterling, whom I greatly respect, has said all there is to say about the bane of so called "F2P", and how there is nothing optional about it, because by it's very nature a "F2P" game constantly tempts you to buy stuff.
Originally posted by Elikal Jim Sterling, whom I greatly respect, has said all there is to say about the bane of so called "F2P", and how there is nothing optional about it, because by it's very nature a "F2P" game constantly tempts you to buy stuff.
You do realize the big point of his video was that if you pay for a game and then it adds F2P elements on top of that it is an issue... He is basically complaining about cash shops in retail titles. I didn't watch the entire video because well I don't think his points make much sense to be honest.
They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.
Or maybe parents should take their responsibilities and start to watch what their teenager is doing for hours and hours on his computer instead of doing homework or other things?
But Internet and video games are a very convenient babysitter... doesn't cost much, and gets rid of those pesky annoying kids.
Jean-Luc,
Your post broke my heart, because it is so true. I try my best to keep those blasted devices and laptops out of my kids hands, but they always seem to find their way back into them.
So instead, we bust out the board games and play them together.
When it is just my son and I, we bust out Minecraft and join each other's game over the LAN. The best 50 bucks I ever spent.
OP,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, which is why I choose to not play MMO's at this time.
Instead I am currently:
Chomping at the bit waiting for XRebirth to be released, which will satisfy me for quite some time
Play Minecraft with my son over the LAN
Alpha test/Play Starpoint Gemini 2
Play co-op games with my friends
Read books to my kids at night
Read actual books. (Yes, the ones made from paper)
Go for walks, and ride my bike that was covered in dust.
MMOs are not worlds in and of themselves where I can explore and loose myself in anymore, where players can shape a new reality and share those experiences with others. They are virtual treadmills that you pay to walk on, with no reward at the end but other treadmills. They think players haven't gotten wise, but they have. The sparkly items and raid gear only blind us temporarily to what we see is wrong with the genre.
Most of my friends that I play with have given up on MMOs, and instead shift to co-op and single player games. We still hang out on TS and chat while we're playing. But we all feel that MMOs are dead, even Wildstar or EQ:Next really hold no interest for us. We're even skeptical about Star Citizen at this point.
Call us jaded, sure, maybe we are. But we're done handing money over to run on yet another treadmill.
Just say no.
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Originally posted by Elikal Jim Sterling, whom I greatly respect, has said all there is to say about the bane of so called "F2P", and how there is nothing optional about it, because by it's very nature a "F2P" game constantly tempts you to buy stuff.
You do realize the big point of his video was that if you pay for a game and then it adds F2P elements on top of that it is an issue... He is basically complaining about cash shops in retail titles. I didn't watch the entire video because well I don't think his points make much sense to be honest.
I didn't have to watch the video...just the first sentence:
"It's time to talk about why "optional" microtransactions in games aren't really optional, and why they're especially gruesome in games we already paid for at retail."
Adding them to former retail games is "especially gruesome" but he's talking about them all. But I guess you could just read what you want to read into it and ignore his main point... and he's right on the money...so to speak.
I have always had socialist leanings so I would love to be able to say that F2P is the "people's" model... if it wasn't for the fact that it perverts the word "free" and is nothing more than just a more sophisticated way of separating gamers from their money AND getting them to accept in-game ads and cash transactions as not spam, as when the gold sellers do it, but a feature lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Imagine this would be business practice with any other product. Like cars.
Customer: "Hello, I want to buy a new car!"
Salesman: "Good, I have a new car under development, just give me 80 grand."
Customer: "Hm, ok, but.. what sort of car is it?"
Salesman: "Well.. it is red. ... And it has 4 tires, windows and a roof!"
Customer: "And? Is that all you can tell me? I mean for wanting 80 grand upfront, that's a bit vague, don't you think?"
Salesman: "Well, unfortunately, I am under NDA, which I made up myself, so I can't tell you anything more. Do I get your money now?"
Customer: "Seems legit."
Salesman: "Oh and by the way, the car isn't ready. We are still testing it. You pay now, then you get SOME working parts in half a year, and someday you get the complete car. Oh and here you have one tire now, to have some nice goody."
Customer: "So I pay 80 grand for a car now, I will be tester for your car, I get a tire now, in half a year I get a somewhat working car and someday I don't know when I get a complete car, of whatever detail I know nothing about?"
Salesman: "Yes. And it gets better! You get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on your car, if you pay 80 grand now for a car you know little about and you don't know when you get it. Oh and when you get the car you paid for, everyone else gets the same car, only they get it for free. Of course they don't get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on it."
Customer: "Wow, that sounds like a great deal. Here you have my money!"
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What bullshit. Being robbed means having something taken from you... Not you freely giving it away. If you value your time so much don't play games. Ya know how many friends I gave that font play Mmo's who waste their time and money in other less constructive ways? A fucking lot of them. Bars every other night wasting money to get drunk and not even remember what they did. Fixing up cars on the weekends just to have their wives make them sell them loosing money hand over fist.
As as far as the rich being rich in game and poor being poor... That's just a coincidence. I have plenty of RL money, yet I'm alwats broke as shit in Mmo's cause of my casual playstyle. The richest guy I know in WoW is my wife's brother... And he lives in a basement with no job in RL. There is no link.
You can't do epic meaningful things with every single second of your life. I'm not a starving artist. I have a very successful carrer and I NEED downtime. Downtime, such as playing Mmo's may not be elegant, but it keeps me stable and happy. If you're past that, move on.
They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.
Or maybe parents should take their responsibilities and start to watch what their teenager is doing for hours and hours on his computer instead of doing homework or other things?
But Internet and video games are a very convenient babysitter... doesn't cost much, and gets rid of those pesky annoying kids.
Jean-Luc,
Your post broke my heart, because it is so true. I try my best to keep those blasted devices and laptops out of my kids hands, but they always seem to find their way back into them.
So instead, we bust out the board games and play them together.
When it is just my son and I, we bust out Minecraft and join each other's game over the LAN. The best 50 bucks I ever spent.
OP,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, which is why I choose to not play MMO's at this time.
Instead I am currently:
Chomping at the bit waiting for XRebirth to be released, which will satisfy me for quite some time
Play Minecraft with my son over the LAN
Alpha test/Play Starpoint Gemini 2
Play co-op games with my friends
Read books to my kids at night
Read actual books. (Yes, the ones made from paper)
Go for walks, and ride my bike that was covered in dust.
MMOs are not worlds in and of themselves where I can explore and loose myself in anymore, where players can shape a new reality and share those experiences with others. They are virtual treadmills that you pay to walk on, with no reward at the end but other treadmills. They think players haven't gotten wise, but they have. The sparkly items and raid gear only blind us temporarily to what we see is wrong with the genre.
Most of my friends that I play with have given up on MMOs, and instead shift to co-op and single player games. We still hang out on TS and chat while we're playing. But we all feel that MMOs are dead, even Wildstar or EQ:Next really hold no interest for us. We're even skeptical about Star Citizen at this point.
Call us jaded, sure, maybe we are. But we're done handing money over to run on yet another treadmill.
Just say no.
I watched a TV report today and the content was about manipulation of kids/teenagers by the food industry, actually about unhealthy fast food and sweets. Companies are using the internet to offer "games" on their webpages, just simple ones but effective enough for manipulation.
If they want to progress in the game they need "coins" and these coins are actually printed on the packaging of their product or inside.
The TV Journalists did contact the companies for a statement and one of them did answer: " We are very serious about our responsibility to not exploit the simpledmindedness of children, we rather account for responsible advertising about our products"
Imagine this would be business practice with any other product. Like cars.
Customer: "Hello, I want to buy a new car!"
Salesman: "Good, I have a new car under development, just give me 80 grand."
Customer: "Hm, ok, but.. what sort of car is it?"
Salesman: "Well.. it is red. ... And it has 4 tires, windows and a roof!"
Customer: "And? Is that all you can tell me? I mean for wanting 80 grand upfront, that's a bit vague, don't you think?"
Salesman: "Well, unfortunately, I am under NDA, which I made up myself, so I can't tell you anything more. Do I get your money now?"
Customer: "Seems legit."
Salesman: "Oh and by the way, the car isn't ready. We are still testing it. You pay now, then you get SOME working parts in half a year, and someday you get the complete car. Oh and here you have one tire now, to have some nice goody."
Customer: "So I pay 80 grand for a car now, I will be tester for your car, I get a tire now, in half a year I get a somewhat working car and someday I don't know when I get a complete car, of whatever detail I know nothing about?"
Salesman: "Yes. And it gets better! You get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on your car, if you pay 80 grand now for a car you know little about and you don't know when you get it. Oh and when you get the car you paid for, everyone else gets the same car, only they get it for free. Of course they don't get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on it."
Customer: "Go F#$k yourself" and walks off...
Fixed that for you.
Because you see... this is all optional. You have a choice to be a rube or not. If you have difficulty controlling yourself or have issues with using judgement then thats a personal problem. Being responsible and having good judgement is up to the individual.
Originally posted by Elikal Imagine this would be business practice with any other product. Like cars.Customer: "Hello, I want to buy a new car!"Salesman: "Good, I have a new car under development, just give me 80 grand."Customer: "Hm, ok, but.. what sort of car is it?"Salesman: "Well.. it is red. ... And it has 4 tires, windows and a roof!"Customer: "And? Is that all you can tell me? I mean for wanting 80 grand upfront, that's a bit vague, don't you think?"Salesman: "Well, unfortunately, I am under NDA, which I made up myself, so I can't tell you anything more. Do I get your money now?"Customer: "Seems legit."Salesman: "Oh and by the way, the car isn't ready. We are still testing it. You pay now, then you get SOME working parts in half a year, and someday you get the complete car. Oh and here you have one tire now, to have some nice goody."Customer: "So I pay 80 grand for a car now, I will be tester for your car, I get a tire now, in half a year I get a somewhat working car and someday I don't know when I get a complete car, of whatever detail I know nothing about?"Salesman: "Yes. And it gets better! You get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on your car, if you pay 80 grand now for a car you know little about and you don't know when you get it. Oh and when you get the car you paid for, everyone else gets the same car, only they get it for free. Of course they don't get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on it."Customer: "Wow, that sounds like a great deal. Here you have my money!"
Heh. There are a lot of things that work inside the software industry that would never fly in any other industry. It's why we don't have self driving cars, and also why fewer and fewer people die every year as cars get safer and safer instead of buggier and buggier.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The draw of games has always been, that everyone, regardless of race, ethnicity and how much money you have in the bank, should not matter. You should be bound by the same rules and limitations within the confines of the game.
A peasant could beat a king in chess, with the right skillset you can on the field overcome insurmountable odds, and rise above your station and succeed.
This reasoning is why Sports, still to this day holds a fascination for many people in the world. They are just games, but they mean something much more.
Once upon a time MMOS shared this vison of equality, but today they are no diffrent then the world we are trying to escape, for a few hours.
I'm not poor as the OP is, but something of the charm of MMOS was lost when they became a money grab. The MMO soul, what made these games fun and exiting died, when advancement turned into the next swap of your credit card..
Some of you might disagree others might agree, but it does not change the fact that for me it became less and less fun to play.
The understanding of this simple logic is also why many demonstrated in EvE when the Devs tried to introduce, items for real cash.. The Devs had to back down in the end.. and that game is much better off because of it.
Originally posted by Elikal Imagine this would be business practice with any other product. Like cars.
Customer: "Hello, I want to buy a new car!"
Salesman: "Good, I have a new car under development, just give me 80 grand."
Customer: "Hm, ok, but.. what sort of car is it?"
Salesman: "Well.. it is red. ... And it has 4 tires, windows and a roof!"
Customer: "And? Is that all you can tell me? I mean for wanting 80 grand upfront, that's a bit vague, don't you think?"
Salesman: "Well, unfortunately, I am under NDA, which I made up myself, so I can't tell you anything more. Do I get your money now?"
Customer: "Seems legit."
Salesman: "Oh and by the way, the car isn't ready. We are still testing it. You pay now, then you get SOME working parts in half a year, and someday you get the complete car. Oh and here you have one tire now, to have some nice goody."
Customer: "So I pay 80 grand for a car now, I will be tester for your car, I get a tire now, in half a year I get a somewhat working car and someday I don't know when I get a complete car, of whatever detail I know nothing about?"
Salesman: "Yes. And it gets better! You get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on your car, if you pay 80 grand now for a car you know little about and you don't know when you get it. Oh and when you get the car you paid for, everyone else gets the same car, only they get it for free. Of course they don't get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on it."
Customer: "Wow, that sounds like a great deal. Here you have my money!"
Heh. There are a lot of things that work inside the software industry that would never fly in any other industry. It's why we don't have self driving cars, and also why fewer and fewer people die every year as cars get safer and safer instead of buggier and buggier.
We all have choices and as consumers we get to vote with our wallets. I personaly have. For the most part I don't play MMO's anymore and there are several companies I just won't purchase any product from, period. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's what I am able to do as an indivudual.
I definately feel that a very large percentage of the companies in this industry have gone away from offering good entertainment products at a fair price, treating thier customers with respect and being concerned with the long term reputation of thier brands and building thier business. Today it seems far more prevelant that they offer shoddy products sold largely on marketing hype. Use manipulation tactics to squeeze as much as they can from a customer rather then offering fair, up front pricing. Treat thier customers poorly and burn long term brand reputation in favor of a fast buck and a good quarterly report.
I have more money now then I did at any point in my life. Easly more then enough to splurge on whatever I want for games. So that's not an issue. What is an issue is that I've simply grown mature enough not to tolerate any business that doesn't value me enough as a customer to treat me well and to give me quality product at a fair up front price without any attempts at manipulation. If I get the impression that a business, any business is trying to manipulate me. I simply walk....because it tells me that business places no value on it's long term relationship with me as a business....and that tells me alot about how they operate behind the scenes and what I can expect from them for my money. My time is simply too valueable to waste on such enterprises.
This holds true for car dealerships, repairmen, hotels, salesmen of any stripe and game companies. There ARE gaming companies that don't operate like that...but they tend to be smaller mostly independant ones.....and not generaly focused on making MMO's. Thier the ones who get my entertainment dollar. The rest can go take a long walk off a short pier.
[mod edit] i do think that Games, should put its participants on equal footing, or ells, they lose their most important aspect, fair play.
You might argue that time is also an asset. But if I train more then you(give more of my time to something). I should by definition become better at it then you.
Many Modern MMOs have chosen to ignore this, and instead they let people use their credit cards to keep up. This would be the same as letting, the best founded football teams pay for a spot in the playoffs and not having to face the poorer teams. If you dont see that there is something fundementaly wrong with this line of thinking, I cant help you...
Games should give all participants the same chans to succeed, regardless of how much money they make(outside the game), what race or country they belong too. If it dosen't it stops being a game and becomes just another reflection of reality. The spirit is lost...
Actually the earliest online games made you pay by the hour and those with the most money had a huge advantage. Almost none of these games allow you to pay to get a significant advantage. All these systems do is allow you to save money on games you don't play that long and decide which parts you want to buy on games you do play a long time. It is a win win proposition pretty much for the consumer.
If games move towards actual pay to win then yeah I can see your point but almost none of them actually are.
But i do think that Games, should put its participants on equal footing, or ells, they lose their most important aspect, fair play.
You might argue that time is also an asset. But if I train more then you(give more of my time to something). I should by definition become better at it then you.
Many Modern MMOs have chosen to ignore this, and instead they let people use their credit cards to keep up. This would be the same as letting, the best founded football teams pay for a spot in the playoffs and not having to face the poorer teams. If you dont see that there is something fundementaly wrong with this line of thinking, I cant help you...
Games should give all participants the same chans to succeed, regardless of how much money they make(outside the game), what race or country they belong too. If it dosen't it stops being a game and becomes just another reflection of reality. The spirit is lost...
Doing something more than anothe should make your more better, but doesn't automatically make you better.
[mod edit], if someone is better than you, they deserve the reward.
Someday a game will come along which rewards efficiency and ingenuity over /time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have also found that credit card players(those who pay for advancements, charecters), are the first who quits. They have not put in the time nor the effort. So they have nothing but a few bucks invested, so the decision to quit is not as hard, compared to if they had spent hours in the game, and had to work for it. Had to build up relations with other players of that games community, and get themselves a reputation in game.
I personaly think that items, xp boosts and the like in games are helping to make games unsuccessful, they breed a lazy mentality. And the population suffers because of it.
, But i do think that Games, should put its participants on equal footing, or ells, they lose their most important aspect, fair play.
You might argue that time is also an asset. But if I train more then you(give more of my time to something). I should by definition become better at it then you.
Many Modern MMOs have chosen to ignore this, and instead they let people use their credit cards to keep up. This would be the same as letting, the best founded football teams pay for a spot in the playoffs and not having to face the poorer teams. If you dont see that there is something fundementaly wrong with this line of thinking, I cant help you...
Games should give all participants the same chans to succeed, regardless of how much money they make(outside the game), what race or country they belong too. If it dosen't it stops being a game and becomes just another reflection of reality. The spirit is lost...
Doing something more than anothe should make your more better, but doesn't automatically make you better.
It's the same problem I have with many unions. I don't care how long you've been there, if someone is better than you, they deserve the reward.
Someday a game will come along which rewards efficiency and ingenuity over /time.
But that was not the point, now was it? If you are a natural at something you will become better faster, it's fair play. What i said was by definition, in regards to people who skipp to the end with the help of their credit cards, and not skills at playing the game. If you are highly skilled at the game, you will blow through the content, it is another basic, fundamental fact of the human condition.
But things become very wrong if I can swap my credit card, and get some super item, that will beat you down every time, even if you are much more skilled then me at playing the game. If MMOS keep moving in the direction they have for the past 6-7 years. That is what will happen. And remember their is always someone richer then you in IRL. You might be able to afford a porsche, but then comes the dude who can buy aMClaren or a ferrari. Fair play is blown out the window.. Games should never ever be about how much money you make IRL.. They lose what they should be about "fair play"
But i do think that Games, should put its participants on equal footing, or ells, they lose their most important aspect, fair play.
You might argue that time is also an asset. But if I train more then you(give more of my time to something). I should by definition become better at it then you.
Many Modern MMOs have chosen to ignore this, and instead they let people use their credit cards to keep up. This would be the same as letting, the best founded football teams pay for a spot in the playoffs and not having to face the poorer teams. If you dont see that there is something fundementaly wrong with this line of thinking, I cant help you...
Games should give all participants the same chans to succeed, regardless of how much money they make(outside the game), what race or country they belong too. If it dosen't it stops being a game and becomes just another reflection of reality. The spirit is lost...
The other game model, such as sub with no cash shop, heavily favors those with more time and it also offers an advantage for those who buy gold. That has been true since forever. There has never been an equitable model.
Football teams, or any sport team really, that can afford better equipment and better training grounds will have a competitive advantage.
Those who have better network hardware and systems in a real time game like an FPS have an advantage over those who don't.
The OPs original complaint (something about titles) also has nothing to do with equal footing. He's envious of someone else buying a title that he can't afford. He complained in the OP about devs using huge time sinks, yet talks about how satisfying it was to spend a long time earning a title and that he feels is how the "system" should work which is contradictory.
I get the impression it's less about how fairness should be implemented and more about trying to make sure no one gets too far ahead due to envy.
Outside of direct competitive pvp matches (something like MOBAs, Star Craft, etc) all the stuff people buy in the store don't preclude anyone else from succeeding. Again, with some exceptions, it's mostly about envy and jealousy.
I disagree, I have seen countless times, that people who "skipp the que, buy charecters, gold etc", are also the first who quits. Also buying titles, and vanity items is not good for the health of the game. As i said Games should not reflect your social status in IRL. If that is what the game is about it stops being a game and becomes something ells. A venue were people can display their personal out of game success. And we allready have a place for this its called IRL.
I fall back on my first post in this thread, Games should be about " fair play" in all things. Or there is absolutely no reason to play them.
If you got a special title because you "ruled" the game with your skills, that would peek my interest when you run by me in the game. I would go holy shit that dude is really good. If you run past me with a title(you bought with IRL money). I would just think, that dude has more money IRL then he knows what do to with. The latter gives nothing to my ingame experince, it just shows that you are willing to fork up more money then most for 0,1....
Originally posted by Amjoco I do agree with what he has said and you just can't let the industry go in all different directions. Some kind of standardization is needed. /shrug
Bullcrap.
This genre became stagnant due to the very fact that companies didn't want variety, they all wanted to use the same mold and WHO THE HELL says that an industry needs to follow the same pay system?!? Give me a break.
The fact is, the people that spend a lot of money in F2P games are the GIMME GIMME GIMME IT ALL RIGHT NOW kind of players that DONT want to work for whats in the game.
They are more than willing to spend 1000s of HOURS doing the exact same instances over and over again for a CHANCE at getting that phat l00t in a subscription game but by god if they are playing a F2P game they refuse to spend the same amount of time earning items, they will instead spending money on buying it from a cash shop. Neverwinter is a PRIME example, you don't have to spend a dime because its so damn easy to get Astral Diamonds, but why earn your AD over time when you can just BUY them and get it all right now.
Worse yet, they will not complain having to do those instances for so many hours if they have to pay a monthly fee for the honor but sure as hell will complain about grind in a F2P!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Comments
On the topic of online game payment models and real life socio-economic status, I've always had a very positive outlook on the potential of free to play models. When done well - and there are examples of some great f2p models - the game remains completely fair for everyone regardless of how much money is spent; that is, when vanity items, usually grounded in aesthetics, act as the foundation of the cash shop. League of Legends, for example, makes almost its entire living off of skin sales. This then enables those who don't have the money to spare to play, sometimes literally, for free. Conversely, those who have the money to spare (ie. those who are ok with dropping a couple hundred bucks per month on entertainment, like going out to dinner/movies/clubs/concerts/sporting events/trips), will be incentivized to do so and will become the dominant funders of the game.
It's no secret that with many f2p games, the overwhelming majority never spend a dime. It's all about the ARPPU (average revenue per paying user.) As long as advantages aren't able to be bought, this is a very good thing for 'poor gamers'. It's sort of like gaming socialism. Everyone can give according to their means and still game according to their fullest desires.
On the topic of the OP's existential crisis, that's just something you need to work out on your own, OP. Only you can determine what a life well spent is to you and then try to live your life accordingly. I would advise against going on a personal crusade to try and get anyone and everyone you talk to to conform to your ideals though.
In life, alas, the old ideas are always the enemy of the new ideas. So before you can built something anew you must first wreck the old system. It stands in the way. And as you see it has plenty of followers yet.
I mean, it's just a spare time hobby, so what gives? But it is dear to me, as I am sure many of us, so I feel it went a bad way in recent years. Just look at what companies like EA do to gaming, and you have the problem of the entire game industry in a nutshell.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
.....there are a lot more "Free to pay" games out there with a locked box system and keys from an ingame shop.
*Lord Of the Rings (LotRO)
*Team Fortress 2
*TERA
*SWTOR
*AION
*Vanguard
*Star Trek Online
*Defiance
*PerfectWorld
*LEGO Lord Of The Rings - Middle Earth
*Plants Vs Zombies
*DC Universe Online
*Allods Online
...............to be continued
I haven't seen any in Vanguard, swtor or dcuo - if they are there maybe I've just been lucky.
I never saw them in CoH and I played that one a lot. CoH didn't even have loot, just temporary enhancers and things to build with, so I am confident in saying it did not have lockboxes. It did have the ancient lockbox that villians could destroy in missions, but that wasn't a loot item, it was also before it went f2p.
Well, I did google a bit to get an overview and this is just the result from a couple of pages.
Vanguard did introduce locked boxes in Nov. 2012 - http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/29/vanguard-expands-f2p-perks-introduces-lockboxes/
DCUniverse - https://forums.station.sony.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/are-promethium-keys-worth-it.9512/
I was probably wrong about City of Heroes, since there was an article related to DCUniverse on the same page.
Jim Sterling, whom I greatly respect, has said all there is to say about the bane of so called "F2P", and how there is nothing optional about it, because by it's very nature a "F2P" game constantly tempts you to buy stuff.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7811-Fee-to-Pay
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You do realize the big point of his video was that if you pay for a game and then it adds F2P elements on top of that it is an issue... He is basically complaining about cash shops in retail titles. I didn't watch the entire video because well I don't think his points make much sense to be honest.
Your post broke my heart, because it is so true. I try my best to keep those blasted devices and laptops out of my kids hands, but they always seem to find their way back into them.
So instead, we bust out the board games and play them together.
When it is just my son and I, we bust out Minecraft and join each other's game over the LAN. The best 50 bucks I ever spent.
OP,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, which is why I choose to not play MMO's at this time.
Instead I am currently:
MMOs are not worlds in and of themselves where I can explore and loose myself in anymore, where players can shape a new reality and share those experiences with others. They are virtual treadmills that you pay to walk on, with no reward at the end but other treadmills. They think players haven't gotten wise, but they have. The sparkly items and raid gear only blind us temporarily to what we see is wrong with the genre.
Most of my friends that I play with have given up on MMOs, and instead shift to co-op and single player games. We still hang out on TS and chat while we're playing. But we all feel that MMOs are dead, even Wildstar or EQ:Next really hold no interest for us. We're even skeptical about Star Citizen at this point.
Call us jaded, sure, maybe we are. But we're done handing money over to run on yet another treadmill.
Just say no.
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
I didn't have to watch the video...just the first sentence:
"It's time to talk about why "optional" microtransactions in games aren't really optional, and why they're especially gruesome in games we already paid for at retail."
Adding them to former retail games is "especially gruesome" but he's talking about them all. But I guess you could just read what you want to read into it and ignore his main point... and he's right on the money...so to speak.
I have always had socialist leanings so I would love to be able to say that F2P is the "people's" model... if it wasn't for the fact that it perverts the word "free" and is nothing more than just a more sophisticated way of separating gamers from their money AND getting them to accept in-game ads and cash transactions as not spam, as when the gold sellers do it, but a feature lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Imagine this would be business practice with any other product. Like cars.
Customer: "Hello, I want to buy a new car!"
Salesman: "Good, I have a new car under development, just give me 80 grand."
Customer: "Hm, ok, but.. what sort of car is it?"
Salesman: "Well.. it is red. ... And it has 4 tires, windows and a roof!"
Customer: "And? Is that all you can tell me? I mean for wanting 80 grand upfront, that's a bit vague, don't you think?"
Salesman: "Well, unfortunately, I am under NDA, which I made up myself, so I can't tell you anything more. Do I get your money now?"
Customer: "Seems legit."
Salesman: "Oh and by the way, the car isn't ready. We are still testing it. You pay now, then you get SOME working parts in half a year, and someday you get the complete car. Oh and here you have one tire now, to have some nice goody."
Customer: "So I pay 80 grand for a car now, I will be tester for your car, I get a tire now, in half a year I get a somewhat working car and someday I don't know when I get a complete car, of whatever detail I know nothing about?"
Salesman: "Yes. And it gets better! You get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on your car, if you pay 80 grand now for a car you know little about and you don't know when you get it. Oh and when you get the car you paid for, everyone else gets the same car, only they get it for free. Of course they don't get a nametag 'I AM TEH KING' on it."
Customer: "Wow, that sounds like a great deal. Here you have my money!"
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What bullshit. Being robbed means having something taken from you... Not you freely giving it away. If you value your time so much don't play games. Ya know how many friends I gave that font play Mmo's who waste their time and money in other less constructive ways? A fucking lot of them. Bars every other night wasting money to get drunk and not even remember what they did. Fixing up cars on the weekends just to have their wives make them sell them loosing money hand over fist.
As as far as the rich being rich in game and poor being poor... That's just a coincidence. I have plenty of RL money, yet I'm alwats broke as shit in Mmo's cause of my casual playstyle. The richest guy I know in WoW is my wife's brother... And he lives in a basement with no job in RL. There is no link.
You can't do epic meaningful things with every single second of your life. I'm not a starving artist. I have a very successful carrer and I NEED downtime. Downtime, such as playing Mmo's may not be elegant, but it keeps me stable and happy. If you're past that, move on.
I watched a TV report today and the content was about manipulation of kids/teenagers by the food industry, actually about unhealthy fast food and sweets. Companies are using the internet to offer "games" on their webpages, just simple ones but effective enough for manipulation.
If they want to progress in the game they need "coins" and these coins are actually printed on the packaging of their product or inside.
The TV Journalists did contact the companies for a statement and one of them did answer: " We are very serious about our responsibility to not exploit the simpledmindedness of children, we rather account for responsible advertising about our products"
This is just laughable and a downright lie.
sorry for going off topic....
@Elikal
Do you realize you just said that f2p is not optional because you are constantly tempted.
Talk about avoiding personal responsibility.
You and I have very different definitions of optional.
Temptation or not it's still my choice.
I'm tempted to eat ice cream every day, but I don't.
I'm tempted to sit on my ass all day but I don't
Why. Because despite the temptation.. wait for it... it is still my choice.
Because it is still my choice... it is optional.
Fixed that for you.
Because you see... this is all optional. You have a choice to be a rube or not. If you have difficulty controlling yourself or have issues with using judgement then thats a personal problem. Being responsible and having good judgement is up to the individual.
Heh. There are a lot of things that work inside the software industry that would never fly in any other industry. It's why we don't have self driving cars, and also why fewer and fewer people die every year as cars get safer and safer instead of buggier and buggier.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The draw of games has always been, that everyone, regardless of race, ethnicity and how much money you have in the bank, should not matter. You should be bound by the same rules and limitations within the confines of the game.
A peasant could beat a king in chess, with the right skillset you can on the field overcome insurmountable odds, and rise above your station and succeed.
This reasoning is why Sports, still to this day holds a fascination for many people in the world. They are just games, but they mean something much more.
Once upon a time MMOS shared this vison of equality, but today they are no diffrent then the world we are trying to escape, for a few hours.
I'm not poor as the OP is, but something of the charm of MMOS was lost when they became a money grab. The MMO soul, what made these games fun and exiting died, when advancement turned into the next swap of your credit card..
Some of you might disagree others might agree, but it does not change the fact that for me it became less and less fun to play.
The understanding of this simple logic is also why many demonstrated in EvE when the Devs tried to introduce, items for real cash.. The Devs had to back down in the end.. and that game is much better off because of it.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/2199797-12/google-tests-self-driving-car-at-virginia-techs-smart.html
over 500,000 km so far.
We all have choices and as consumers we get to vote with our wallets. I personaly have. For the most part I don't play MMO's anymore and there are several companies I just won't purchase any product from, period. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's what I am able to do as an indivudual.
I definately feel that a very large percentage of the companies in this industry have gone away from offering good entertainment products at a fair price, treating thier customers with respect and being concerned with the long term reputation of thier brands and building thier business. Today it seems far more prevelant that they offer shoddy products sold largely on marketing hype. Use manipulation tactics to squeeze as much as they can from a customer rather then offering fair, up front pricing. Treat thier customers poorly and burn long term brand reputation in favor of a fast buck and a good quarterly report.
I have more money now then I did at any point in my life. Easly more then enough to splurge on whatever I want for games. So that's not an issue. What is an issue is that I've simply grown mature enough not to tolerate any business that doesn't value me enough as a customer to treat me well and to give me quality product at a fair up front price without any attempts at manipulation. If I get the impression that a business, any business is trying to manipulate me. I simply walk....because it tells me that business places no value on it's long term relationship with me as a business....and that tells me alot about how they operate behind the scenes and what I can expect from them for my money. My time is simply too valueable to waste on such enterprises.
This holds true for car dealerships, repairmen, hotels, salesmen of any stripe and game companies. There ARE gaming companies that don't operate like that...but they tend to be smaller mostly independant ones.....and not generaly focused on making MMO's. Thier the ones who get my entertainment dollar. The rest can go take a long walk off a short pier.
[mod edit] i do think that Games, should put its participants on equal footing, or ells, they lose their most important aspect, fair play.
You might argue that time is also an asset. But if I train more then you(give more of my time to something). I should by definition become better at it then you.
Many Modern MMOs have chosen to ignore this, and instead they let people use their credit cards to keep up. This would be the same as letting, the best founded football teams pay for a spot in the playoffs and not having to face the poorer teams. If you dont see that there is something fundementaly wrong with this line of thinking, I cant help you...
Games should give all participants the same chans to succeed, regardless of how much money they make(outside the game), what race or country they belong too. If it dosen't it stops being a game and becomes just another reflection of reality. The spirit is lost...
Actually the earliest online games made you pay by the hour and those with the most money had a huge advantage. Almost none of these games allow you to pay to get a significant advantage. All these systems do is allow you to save money on games you don't play that long and decide which parts you want to buy on games you do play a long time. It is a win win proposition pretty much for the consumer.
If games move towards actual pay to win then yeah I can see your point but almost none of them actually are.
Doing something more than anothe should make your more better, but doesn't automatically make you better.
[mod edit], if someone is better than you, they deserve the reward.
Someday a game will come along which rewards efficiency and ingenuity over /time.
I have also found that credit card players(those who pay for advancements, charecters), are the first who quits. They have not put in the time nor the effort. So they have nothing but a few bucks invested, so the decision to quit is not as hard, compared to if they had spent hours in the game, and had to work for it. Had to build up relations with other players of that games community, and get themselves a reputation in game.
I personaly think that items, xp boosts and the like in games are helping to make games unsuccessful, they breed a lazy mentality. And the population suffers because of it.
But that was not the point, now was it? If you are a natural at something you will become better faster, it's fair play. What i said was by definition, in regards to people who skipp to the end with the help of their credit cards, and not skills at playing the game. If you are highly skilled at the game, you will blow through the content, it is another basic, fundamental fact of the human condition.
But things become very wrong if I can swap my credit card, and get some super item, that will beat you down every time, even if you are much more skilled then me at playing the game. If MMOS keep moving in the direction they have for the past 6-7 years. That is what will happen. And remember their is always someone richer then you in IRL. You might be able to afford a porsche, but then comes the dude who can buy a MClaren or a ferrari. Fair play is blown out the window.. Games should never ever be about how much money you make IRL.. They lose what they should be about "fair play"
I disagree, I have seen countless times, that people who "skipp the que, buy charecters, gold etc", are also the first who quits. Also buying titles, and vanity items is not good for the health of the game. As i said Games should not reflect your social status in IRL. If that is what the game is about it stops being a game and becomes something ells. A venue were people can display their personal out of game success. And we allready have a place for this its called IRL.
I fall back on my first post in this thread, Games should be about " fair play" in all things. Or there is absolutely no reason to play them.
If you got a special title because you "ruled" the game with your skills, that would peek my interest when you run by me in the game. I would go holy shit that dude is really good. If you run past me with a title(you bought with IRL money). I would just think, that dude has more money IRL then he knows what do to with. The latter gives nothing to my ingame experince, it just shows that you are willing to fork up more money then most for 0,1....
Bullcrap.
This genre became stagnant due to the very fact that companies didn't want variety, they all wanted to use the same mold and WHO THE HELL says that an industry needs to follow the same pay system?!? Give me a break.
The fact is, the people that spend a lot of money in F2P games are the GIMME GIMME GIMME IT ALL RIGHT NOW kind of players that DONT want to work for whats in the game.
They are more than willing to spend 1000s of HOURS doing the exact same instances over and over again for a CHANCE at getting that phat l00t in a subscription game but by god if they are playing a F2P game they refuse to spend the same amount of time earning items, they will instead spending money on buying it from a cash shop. Neverwinter is a PRIME example, you don't have to spend a dime because its so damn easy to get Astral Diamonds, but why earn your AD over time when you can just BUY them and get it all right now.
Worse yet, they will not complain having to do those instances for so many hours if they have to pay a monthly fee for the honor but sure as hell will complain about grind in a F2P!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson