Originally posted by fs23otm I get the OP's post. He is poor and wants to have the same as people who are not.#1 reason the world is going to hell these days: Entitlement. OP your entitled to two things in life. Death and taxes... same as everyone else. Oh.. he doesn't want to work for anything (Most likely reason he is poor) #2 reason the world is the way it is: Instant Gratification. Not only does the OP not want to work for anything, but it ties back to #1 in that he wants it all handed to him.And people wonder why games are going to hell just like real life...
The fact is people being poor should LOVE this system. They get high quality games and don't have to pay a dime. Just because someone else pays money and gets a couple fluff items for it shouldn't change the fact they are happy about this. You don't have to pay a dime and you can do everything everyone else does in the game. The only bonuses to the early beta access are things that you will be making in under a months time in game or pure fluff appearance items.
Complaining about this model really doesn't make any sort of sense. I could see if they were say selling pickaxes that you couldn't obtain in the game and were better than those in the game or something, but that isn't how this model works at all from everything we know right now.
I tried reading mostly the entire thread, however it is fairly long so I did skip the last 3 or 4 pages since most comments where being repeated.
I understand, both sides.
I agree and disagree with the OP.
Reality really wiggled it's way into gaming. Yes the rich can now get better things then the poor. Why and when did this exactly happen? Well, back in the day gaming wasn't even seen as a mainstream sort of thing. Gamers where not cool and seen as geeks. Course I am going very far back here lol. Eventually gaming started to get popular. Along with popularity comes great change.
It's pretty interesting but it greatly shows the effects of an item going from unpopular to popular. It's actually very similar to what you are talking about.
It sort of sucks to have to deal with situation you are in real life and be reminded of it in the pass times you enjoy.
Now here is why I disagree.
This model, while it does give higher paying customers more of an advantage or better things, it also makes the product cheaper to those who are less capable of paying. This makes the game freely available to those who have interest but not he coin to spare.
I personally think it's a great payment model because it's very flexible to people of all backgrounds and professions. You are not forced to pay a monthly fee, so you have an opportunity to take breaks and come back when your able to. It's great for the casual, but also still works for the hardcore.
Those who are willing to put more time into it, are able to.
I already know many people will disagree with me on my stance. That is fine. I realize this model isn't for everyone. It works for me though because I really don't let others financial situations effect me. i don't care if the person next to me spent $500 and that is why he or she has surpassed me. That doesn't effect me nor does it bother me in any way. After all, I choose to play the game how I would like to play it, and what right do I have to tell someone to play it the same way I do?
I never feel the payment model makes much of a difference, as long as I feel the game is worth it.
These days I personally haven't seen a game that I feel is worthy of a P2P model. Hmm .. maybe if a developer takes advantage of the Oculus ... I might pay monthly, as it would offer something new.
Is this a first world problem? Yes, this is a first world problem. The frickin' meme applies, and it's actually about money. Holeeee-cats.
A person who is in the 0.1% of the world that holds 81% of the world's wealth* is complaining that someone else in that 0.1% wants to claim some of that wealth for an unnecessary luxury item. Moreover, it's a luxury item that if the person waits, they will be able to obtain for free.
* We know this because they are on the internet, responding to posts using some form of personal computer. We know about the wealth distribution because we, also as members of the same group can look up that information using Google.
**
Not only will the product be available for free, users who have the talent and are willing to put in the work will be able to create things that they can potentially sell, earning money from the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Stop being an artist. Seriously. I an a entry level developer. There are too many artists and many artists have over-inflate how much they are actually worth. And seriously, the work is degrading, you're gonna spend hours making a damn tree that nobody gives two shits about in a video game.
Find another way to make money.
With regards to your MMO points, get over it. Before the introduction of "real money transactions" in MMORPGs here there was another currency of finite value: time. Back when we were younger, in the days of Lineage 2, , Final Fantasy XI, Ragnarok Online and other "old school MMOs, we had more time. As we grew older, the amount of time we had to invest in MMOs diminished. Many of the original "old school" MMO players have made $$$ (cha-ching) using the time they had to play MMOs in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody plotted a graph with the average income of MMO players from 2000 till now and we see a linear increase much greater than inflation. Less QQ, more play play.
I'm an "artist" as well. Well, a composer. However, I realize that things cost money and my "art" doesn't make enough to live from.
so I do a day job that easily pays the bills so I can "do my art".
I never want for money when it comes time to spend but my day job doesn't suck up any more than the requisite 8 hours per day.
I don't believe that video games are a "right". Just like the movies aren't a "right" or going to the theater or a concert. If you want to go "go", If you can't afford it then make changes.
Having said that, I am for the "one price gets everything for everyone" However, if that one price needs to be higher then so be it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Stop being an artist. Seriously. I an a entry level developer. There are too many artists and many artists have over-inflate how much they are actually worth. And seriously, the work is degrading, you're gonna spend hours making a damn tree that nobody gives two shits about in a video game.
I'm an "artist" as well. Well, a composer. However, I realize that things cost money and my "art" doesn't make enough to live from.
so I do a day job that easily pays the bills so I can "do my art".
I never want for money when it comes time to spend but my day job doesn't suck up any more than the requisite 8 hours per day.
I don't believe that video games are a "right". Just like the movies aren't a "right" or going to the theater or a concert. If you want to go "go", If you can't afford it then make changes.
Having said that, I am for the "one price gets everything for everyone" However, if that one price needs to be higher then so be it.
I'm in Sovrath's camp, but I understand Loktofeit's frustration.
As far as "Stop being an artist"... that's a terrible suggestion.
I think I'll just leave this quote by Kurt Vonnegut here: "starting right now, do art and do it for the rest of your lives."
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Welcome to the age of the monetized fantasy world.
It's precisely why i hate the F2P trend in all its variants: the intrusion of real life commercial values into a gaming genre that used to be about leaving the real world behind.
EQN Landmark is indeed a good example of the state of the MMO genre in 2013. SOE has obviously been watching very carefully what people are willing to pay for and they have jumped in with both feet into the realm of selling early access and special titles. They're even adopting the "you can make money too!" fantasy that Blizzard started with Diablo 3 by dangling the possible sale of Landmark creations for real money as yet another carrot.
Being able or willing to pay for it is actually irrelevant to me. What annoys the shit out of me is that the games are polluted with inescapable real money transactions. Spend a lot or nothing at all but you can never escape the ever-present awareness that the real world economy is just as present there as it is in the Shopping Channel.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The thing I would be concerned about is gold farmers. Instead of small, independent players participating in something fun and rewarding, the system becomes a massive labor sink for underpaid workers or people in prison camps. This seems like a more legit bogeyman to be afraid of to me.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some people just like to suck all the fun out of this world. Even something as trivial as games which are made for entertainment are not safe from these party poopers.
All the f2p/freemium games I've played I get almost the whole thing, 75-90% free. The only thing I've ever had to pay for was if I wanted a particular class/race in EQ and even thats free now.
VG, EQ2, EQ, CoH, DCUO, Aion - all freemium, all I've been able to play almost completely free.
Later on in EQ2 I did spend money on the housing. Housing is not required at all, especially if your are in a guild, however I wanted to build a castle so I bought things.
I don't know where this 25-30% number is coming from, but it's not even remotely reality.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Being able or willing to pay for it is actually irrelevant to me. What annoys the shit out of me is that the games are polluted with inescapable real money transactions. Spend a lot or nothing at all but you can never escape the ever-present awareness that the real world economy is just as present there as it is in the Shopping Channel.
To me that still beats putting a $60 investment into a game you don't know if you will like or spending $15/month and feeling locked into just one game at a time. It is a trade off and one I deem to be a good trade off.
I think my very first post ever on the topic of RMT was that it was a gimmick to get their foot in the door.After they get people to accept it,it would get worse and worse because it is an idea that allows a developer to go above and beyond any set profits.
Wow helped ruin it even further,not solely by itself but by becoming super popular,it set a certain standard other devs looked at.So now if you notice countless games,like a LARGE majority are copying Wow's cartoon graphics because they figure it is acceptable.
I still remember when SOE started the Station cash and rmt,they said they wanted to ensure fairness so made separate rmt servers and normal sub fee servers.Their excuse at the time was since they could not top rmt,they fgured it only fair the developer gets in to it and offer a safer avenue for the gamer's.
Problem is SOE turned their entire operation into a cash shop operation and sell anything and everything.For awhile they even sold items to reset gear so could be reused on another player or sold.
Now we even have Blizzard who once physically laughed at the notion of buying a max level player,now they are offering that very idea they laughed at...hypocrite much?
There is ONLY one way to get gaming back on track,quit supporting shotty/misleading ideas,make these devs lose millions,that is the only way they will wake up and stop trying to cheat us.The only sad part of it all is when we stop accepting these misleading ideas,people lose jobs,those employees don't deserve it but their employers really don't care one bit about them,they would fire them in an instant.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It can only go up if players want it to. It's only where it is because players want it there.
Which is the more likely scenario:
1)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Go for it."
Players: "Oh! That's stuff I want at a price I am willing to pay. I will buy that."
2)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Nah. Except for those seven industry-savvy business mavens at MMORPG.com that think every gamer is a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot except them, everyone IS a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot. Put out crap and make them buy it!"
Players: "I - am - stupid. Must - buy - thing - simply - because - it - exists."
To all but the magnificent seven here, it's obviously the first one. As for empathizing for him, that's ridiculous. It's the most entitled and self-centered view I've ever seen come out of a gamer over the age of five. He's talking about the ALPHA for a video game, not even the game itself, because that's FREE. He's upset others get to play a video game before him because they have money and he's just an unemployed artist.
I think you might be over simplifiying what's going on with these founders packages. Sure it works like #1 but it doesn't just end there. Giving people anything they'll pay for just because they'll pay for it isn't always a good thing. Games have already shown that pay to win can work. Sure lots of us walk away from it because we know what they are but people can be trained to accept many things.
The whole sex vrs violence thing is all social conditioning. Why is it ok to see a head cut off but show a boob and it becomes 18+. Babies see boobs every day of their life and they turn out ok...most of the time.
All they have to do to keep pushing the boundaries is make the changes slowly so people can accept them and the next time they can go a bit farther. Acceptance is like a fire that starts off slow but once it gets to a critical mass there's no stopping it.
And I empathize with his desire to keep real life status out of our virtual worlds. Not the part where he thinks he should get special treatment
It can only go up if players want it to. It's only where it is because players want it there.
Which is the more likely scenario:
1)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Go for it."
Players: "Oh! That's stuff I want at a price I am willing to pay. I will buy that."
2)
Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
Dev 1: "Nah. Except for those seven industry-savvy business mavens at MMORPG.com that think every gamer is a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot except them, everyone IS a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot. Put out crap and make them buy it!"
Players: "I - am - stupid. Must - buy - thing - simply - because - it - exists."
To all but the magnificent seven here, it's obviously the first one. As for empathizing for him, that's ridiculous. It's the most entitled and self-centered view I've ever seen come out of a gamer over the age of five. He's talking about the ALPHA for a video game, not even the game itself, because that's FREE. He's upset others get to play a video game before him because they have money and he's just an unemployed artist.
I think you might be over simplifiying what's going on with these founders packages. Sure it works like #1 but it doesn't just end there. Giving people anything they'll pay for just because they'll pay for it isn't always a good thing. Games have already shown that pay to win can work. Sure lots of us walk away from it because we know what they are but people can be trained to accept many things.
The whole sex vrs violence thing is all social conditioning. Why is it ok to see a head cut off but show a boob and it becomes 18+. Babies see boobs every day of their life and they turn out ok...most of the time.
All they have to do to keep pushing the boundaries is make the changes slowly so people can accept them and the next time they can go a bit farther. Acceptance is like a fire that starts off slow but once it gets to a critical mass there's no stopping it.
And I empathize with his desire to keep real life status out of our virtual worlds. Not the part where he thinks he should get special treatment
I agree, it's a simplification, but we're dealing with a very simple #firstworldproblem at the root of this thread.
That said, while I personally don't buy into the boiling frog theory myself, I do see how that could be a concern so I empathize with your point there. Again, that is part of the p2w and social class in virtual worlds conversation which is a whole other animal and separate from the special treatment one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Op it could be worse, you could have lost your home and family to a massive typhoon. Gamers really do come across as spoiled little brats at times.
There are nicer ways of putting things.
I'm guessing others have mentioned it but take a break dood. Throw your phone, computer, laptop, tablet. console and even the internet out of the window and smell the roses.
Don't be tempted to even see what has happened to the industry for a year or two. Then come back and look again.
TBH if your lost looking for something today, your gonna be lost for a while.
EDIT: I'm waiting for virtual reality to really take off. Untill then I treat games like I treat a McDonalds.
EDIT: I'm waiting for virtual reality to really take off. Untill then I treat games like I treat a McDonalds.
lol I can certainly agree with that. I feel exactly the same way. I have been dreaming of VR for a very long time, and it looks like it's the closest it's ever been.
EDIT: I'm waiting for virtual reality to really take off. Untill then I treat games like I treat a McDonalds.
lol I can certainly agree with that. I feel exactly the same way. I have been dreaming of VR for a very long time, and it looks like it's the closest it's ever been.
It's getting closer. Hopefully I'll be able to touch, smell and taste the worlds I'm in in my lifetime.
I'd love to come across a dungeon in a world I'd question about going into. Not because the content is hard, because it reeks of death inside.
Gaming for 20+ years sat behind a computer will get boring, no matter the game. IMO.
EDIT: I'm waiting for virtual reality to really take off. Untill then I treat games like I treat a McDonalds.
lol I can certainly agree with that. I feel exactly the same way. I have been dreaming of VR for a very long time, and it looks like it's the closest it's ever been.
It's getting closer. Hopefully I'll be able to touch, smell and taste the worlds I'm in in my lifetime.
I'd love to come across a dungeon in a world I'd question about going into. Not because the content is hard, because it reeks of death inside.
Gaming for 20+ years sat behind a computer will get boring, no matter the game. IMO.
You do need to take breaks, lengthy breaks.
Both Oculus Rift and CastAR look promising.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My advice is go do something else with your time maybe !?? Its video games for hells sake. I like games myself and play often but the changes in the industry just make me choose what I want to spend money on. Personally I do not like real money / micro transaction / f2p cash shop games and simply do not play them. But in no way does it ever effect my mood or my wallet.
If others have the cash to spend and want to spend it in the cash shop then more power to them. Does not concern me at all.
You seem to bring personal beefs into your posts. I get the starving out of work artist bit. Only you can change that, and a good start would be to quit playing and worry about something as trivial as a video game and get some skills that make you more valuable in the marketplace. Learn some skills, get a better job, make more money, quit brooding about the direction of video games.
For someone who is unemployed or underemployed to be worried about anything video game related is ludicrous at best.
Originally posted by jdnewell I did not read all 6 pages of replies but...
My advice is go do something else with your time maybe !?? Its video games for hells sake. I like games myself and play often but the changes in the industry just make me choose what I want to spend money on. Personally I do not like real money / micro transaction / f2p cash shop games and simply do not play them. But in no way does it ever effect my mood or my wallet.
If others have the cash to spend and want to spend it in the cash shop then more power to them. Does not concern me at all.
You seem to bring personal beefs into your posts. I get the starving out of work artist bit. Only you can change that, and a good start would be to quit playing and worry about something as trivial as a video game and get some skills that make you more valuable in the marketplace. Learn some skills, get a better job, make more money, quit brooding about the direction of video games.
For someone who is unemployed or underemployed to be worried about anything video game related is ludicrous at best.
I agree with your post but just have to say one more time for the OP. If you have no money this model benefits you, it doesn't hurt you. Your entire point made no sense to begin with. The cash shops aren't going away, they are in just about every type of game now. The large majority of them don't let you buy useful stuff, they are mostly there for fluff or maybe like XP bonuses or saving a little time unlocking things you can get anyway. This business model is a huge advantage to the player who doesn't want to spend a lot on games. As someone with 3 gaming age kids I'm super pumped about more and more going F2P so we aren't spending so much on gaming. Beats the $50-$60 initial investment system by miles.
OP, essentialy the nature of the people who sold and made these products changed. These used to be craftsmen who ran small companies and believed in giving thier customers a good product at a fair price. They've turned into vast entertainment companies who crank out "product" like they crank out toilet paper....and they resort to all the psychological tricks that casino's and big gambling does to eek out every penny possible from each customer. Gone is the pride of craftsmanship and concern for the individual customer. Gone is the pride in thier own brand....all that is considered is maximizing next quarters proffit reports to increase short term stock prices. Even the smaller independant companies often fall prey to this attitude due to the saturation of the market and the pressure of competition.
You can see echo's of what this industry used to be in other smaller, niche gaming verticles such as Turn Based Strategy Games.....but for the MMORPG it's gone.
That's not true Origin were owned by EA when they made uo. EQ was built under the ownership of Sony, ditto swg, planetside & eq2 Ac was built under the ownership of microsoft. coh - nc soft
Of them pre wow mmos, there's only daoc, eve and Ao that would fit the "small and independent" category.
Look, the point is this: Back in Everquest II I became noble and "Sir" Elikal after years of hard work IN THE GAME. I did a lot of status quests for my guild. Now in EQ Landmarks you BUY a title for $90. THAT is what is plain wrong, because games SHOULD NOT BE about how much money you have, but how good, patient and dedicated IN the game you are.
Being able to BUY all that stuff makes it worthless and ruins all sense of accomplishment!
Put simply, once upon a time people played MMOs to get what they wanted - Titles, items, status, etc. And everyone had the same challenges and requirements to fulfill to do so.
Now, people pay their way through MMOs to get what they want. Anything that involves playing the game is seen as an obstacle (or a "grind") getting in the way of what they want. Being able to buy their way around it is considered a good thing.
When someone says "$15 a month to play a MMO is a rip-off", because "their time is too limited to make it worthwhile", but then turns around and argues that $20+ in a single purchase is a great deal, because "they chose to spend it", then that's really saying it all.
Seriously. That's a popular argument used by many who defend F2P/Cash Shops; "it's a great deal because I choose to pay it".
In a nutshell:
Limited time + $15/mth flat cost for access to everything = Bad Deal.
Limited time + upwards of $20 (or more) for a single transaction = Great Deal.
That's their.. -ahem- "logic". Just think about that and it starts to make sense.
When people are willing and eager to dupe themselves into that kind of thinking, is it any wonder developers/publishers aren't embracing and cashing in on it as much as they can? They don't even have to sell people on the idea. The people are selling themselves.
Developers are able to eliminate monthly subs because, frankly, they can.
First of all ... about this. You are missing many factors.
P2P - Limited time + Box price $60 + $15 per month = Bad Deal (You have no choice when or how much to pay if you want to play it)
F2P - Limited time + Free (with the occasional purchase) = Great deal (You have a choice of when and how much you are willing to pay and your not obligated to pay at all when you want to play)
B2P - Limited time + Box Price (Never having to pay ever again) = Also great deal. (you do have the option to pay a little more if you want cash shop items, but they are most certainly not required and are only for looks usually.
See the issue is, you are only viewing it the way you want to view it, and not for how it actually is. In other words, you are viewing it through you own tainted eye glasses. So, who's logic is wrong?
But hey lets go a step further.
A person can play a year on a F2P game and only spend $60 total through out the entire time. They can spend 0. Or they can spend 100s. While a P2P game It's $60 +15 x 11 = $225.
First of all ... about this. You are missing many factors.
P2P - Limited time + Box price $60 + $15 per month = Bad Deal (You have no choice when or how much to pay if you want to play it)
F2P - Limited time + Free (with the occasional purchase) = Great deal (You have a choice of when and how much you are willing to pay and your not obligated to pay at all when you want to play)
B2P - Limited time + Box Price (Never having to pay ever again) = Also great deal. (you do have the option to pay a little more if you want cash shop items, but they are most certainly not required and are only for looks usually.
See the issue is, you are only viewing it the way you want to view it, and not for how it actually is. In other words, you are viewing it through you own tainted eye glasses. So, who's logic is wrong?
But hey lets go a step further.
A person can play a year on a F2P game and only spend $60 total through out the entire time. They can spend 0. Or they can spend 100s. While a P2P game It's $60 +15 x 11 = $225.
So again .. tell me which is the better deal?
I know your feelings on the subject quite well, and you know mine.
The one thing that is usually not mentioned is that the game experience itself is changed by the intrusion of marketing in the F2P or B2P + light cash shop in the game.
The best analogy that I can think of is free TV where you get 40 minutes of content and 20 minutes of ads per hour vs. premium pay channels like HBO with no advertising. Game of Thrones just wouldn't be the same with the reduced content to fit a one hour commercial TV slot with all the ad interruptions.
I get that some don't seem to mind the MMO + sales environment of F2P, and if you're one of those not bothered by it, it's a good deal. But it does annoy me.
Often you see posts here about MMO quality expressed as "Is it a world or is it a game?" If there's a cash shop and microtransactions in it, it has no hope in hell of being a world.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
The fact is people being poor should LOVE this system. They get high quality games and don't have to pay a dime. Just because someone else pays money and gets a couple fluff items for it shouldn't change the fact they are happy about this. You don't have to pay a dime and you can do everything everyone else does in the game. The only bonuses to the early beta access are things that you will be making in under a months time in game or pure fluff appearance items.
Complaining about this model really doesn't make any sort of sense. I could see if they were say selling pickaxes that you couldn't obtain in the game and were better than those in the game or something, but that isn't how this model works at all from everything we know right now.
I tried reading mostly the entire thread, however it is fairly long so I did skip the last 3 or 4 pages since most comments where being repeated.
I understand, both sides.
I agree and disagree with the OP.
Reality really wiggled it's way into gaming. Yes the rich can now get better things then the poor. Why and when did this exactly happen? Well, back in the day gaming wasn't even seen as a mainstream sort of thing. Gamers where not cool and seen as geeks. Course I am going very far back here lol. Eventually gaming started to get popular. Along with popularity comes great change.
Did you know, Lobster used to be eaten by the poor in very old times. Here is a very good read about it. http://voices.yahoo.com/how-lobster-went-poor-mans-food-rich-mans-5191759.html
It's pretty interesting but it greatly shows the effects of an item going from unpopular to popular. It's actually very similar to what you are talking about.
It sort of sucks to have to deal with situation you are in real life and be reminded of it in the pass times you enjoy.
Now here is why I disagree.
This model, while it does give higher paying customers more of an advantage or better things, it also makes the product cheaper to those who are less capable of paying. This makes the game freely available to those who have interest but not he coin to spare.
I personally think it's a great payment model because it's very flexible to people of all backgrounds and professions. You are not forced to pay a monthly fee, so you have an opportunity to take breaks and come back when your able to. It's great for the casual, but also still works for the hardcore.
Those who are willing to put more time into it, are able to.
I already know many people will disagree with me on my stance. That is fine. I realize this model isn't for everyone. It works for me though because I really don't let others financial situations effect me. i don't care if the person next to me spent $500 and that is why he or she has surpassed me. That doesn't effect me nor does it bother me in any way. After all, I choose to play the game how I would like to play it, and what right do I have to tell someone to play it the same way I do?
I never feel the payment model makes much of a difference, as long as I feel the game is worth it.
These days I personally haven't seen a game that I feel is worthy of a P2P model. Hmm .. maybe if a developer takes advantage of the Oculus ... I might pay monthly, as it would offer something new.
Is this a first world problem? Yes, this is a first world problem. The frickin' meme applies, and it's actually about money. Holeeee-cats.
A person who is in the 0.1% of the world that holds 81% of the world's wealth* is complaining that someone else in that 0.1% wants to claim some of that wealth for an unnecessary luxury item. Moreover, it's a luxury item that if the person waits, they will be able to obtain for free.
* We know this because they are on the internet, responding to posts using some form of personal computer. We know about the wealth distribution because we, also as members of the same group can look up that information using Google.
**
Not only will the product be available for free, users who have the talent and are willing to put in the work will be able to create things that they can potentially sell, earning money from the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I sort of agree.
I'm an "artist" as well. Well, a composer. However, I realize that things cost money and my "art" doesn't make enough to live from.
so I do a day job that easily pays the bills so I can "do my art".
I never want for money when it comes time to spend but my day job doesn't suck up any more than the requisite 8 hours per day.
I don't believe that video games are a "right". Just like the movies aren't a "right" or going to the theater or a concert. If you want to go "go", If you can't afford it then make changes.
Having said that, I am for the "one price gets everything for everyone" However, if that one price needs to be higher then so be it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm in Sovrath's camp, but I understand Loktofeit's frustration.
As far as "Stop being an artist"... that's a terrible suggestion.
I think I'll just leave this quote by Kurt Vonnegut here: "starting right now, do art and do it for the rest of your lives."
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
@ OP
Welcome to the age of the monetized fantasy world.
It's precisely why i hate the F2P trend in all its variants: the intrusion of real life commercial values into a gaming genre that used to be about leaving the real world behind.
EQN Landmark is indeed a good example of the state of the MMO genre in 2013. SOE has obviously been watching very carefully what people are willing to pay for and they have jumped in with both feet into the realm of selling early access and special titles. They're even adopting the "you can make money too!" fantasy that Blizzard started with Diablo 3 by dangling the possible sale of Landmark creations for real money as yet another carrot.
Being able or willing to pay for it is actually irrelevant to me. What annoys the shit out of me is that the games are polluted with inescapable real money transactions. Spend a lot or nothing at all but you can never escape the ever-present awareness that the real world economy is just as present there as it is in the Shopping Channel.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The thing I would be concerned about is gold farmers. Instead of small, independent players participating in something fun and rewarding, the system becomes a massive labor sink for underpaid workers or people in prison camps. This seems like a more legit bogeyman to be afraid of to me.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All the f2p/freemium games I've played I get almost the whole thing, 75-90% free. The only thing I've ever had to pay for was if I wanted a particular class/race in EQ and even thats free now.
VG, EQ2, EQ, CoH, DCUO, Aion - all freemium, all I've been able to play almost completely free.
Later on in EQ2 I did spend money on the housing. Housing is not required at all, especially if your are in a guild, however I wanted to build a castle so I bought things.
I don't know where this 25-30% number is coming from, but it's not even remotely reality.
To me that still beats putting a $60 investment into a game you don't know if you will like or spending $15/month and feeling locked into just one game at a time. It is a trade off and one I deem to be a good trade off.
I think my very first post ever on the topic of RMT was that it was a gimmick to get their foot in the door.After they get people to accept it,it would get worse and worse because it is an idea that allows a developer to go above and beyond any set profits.
Wow helped ruin it even further,not solely by itself but by becoming super popular,it set a certain standard other devs looked at.So now if you notice countless games,like a LARGE majority are copying Wow's cartoon graphics because they figure it is acceptable.
I still remember when SOE started the Station cash and rmt,they said they wanted to ensure fairness so made separate rmt servers and normal sub fee servers.Their excuse at the time was since they could not top rmt,they fgured it only fair the developer gets in to it and offer a safer avenue for the gamer's.
Problem is SOE turned their entire operation into a cash shop operation and sell anything and everything.For awhile they even sold items to reset gear so could be reused on another player or sold.
Now we even have Blizzard who once physically laughed at the notion of buying a max level player,now they are offering that very idea they laughed at...hypocrite much?
There is ONLY one way to get gaming back on track,quit supporting shotty/misleading ideas,make these devs lose millions,that is the only way they will wake up and stop trying to cheat us.The only sad part of it all is when we stop accepting these misleading ideas,people lose jobs,those employees don't deserve it but their employers really don't care one bit about them,they would fire them in an instant.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think you might be over simplifiying what's going on with these founders packages. Sure it works like #1 but it doesn't just end there. Giving people anything they'll pay for just because they'll pay for it isn't always a good thing. Games have already shown that pay to win can work. Sure lots of us walk away from it because we know what they are but people can be trained to accept many things.
The whole sex vrs violence thing is all social conditioning. Why is it ok to see a head cut off but show a boob and it becomes 18+. Babies see boobs every day of their life and they turn out ok...most of the time.
All they have to do to keep pushing the boundaries is make the changes slowly so people can accept them and the next time they can go a bit farther. Acceptance is like a fire that starts off slow but once it gets to a critical mass there's no stopping it.
And I empathize with his desire to keep real life status out of our virtual worlds. Not the part where he thinks he should get special treatment
I agree, it's a simplification, but we're dealing with a very simple #firstworldproblem at the root of this thread.
That said, while I personally don't buy into the boiling frog theory myself, I do see how that could be a concern so I empathize with your point there. Again, that is part of the p2w and social class in virtual worlds conversation which is a whole other animal and separate from the special treatment one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There are nicer ways of putting things.
I'm guessing others have mentioned it but take a break dood. Throw your phone, computer, laptop, tablet. console and even the internet out of the window and smell the roses.
Don't be tempted to even see what has happened to the industry for a year or two. Then come back and look again.
TBH if your lost looking for something today, your gonna be lost for a while.
EDIT: I'm waiting for virtual reality to really take off. Untill then I treat games like I treat a McDonalds.
lol I can certainly agree with that. I feel exactly the same way. I have been dreaming of VR for a very long time, and it looks like it's the closest it's ever been.
It's getting closer. Hopefully I'll be able to touch, smell and taste the worlds I'm in in my lifetime.
I'd love to come across a dungeon in a world I'd question about going into. Not because the content is hard, because it reeks of death inside.
Gaming for 20+ years sat behind a computer will get boring, no matter the game. IMO.
You do need to take breaks, lengthy breaks.
Both Oculus Rift and CastAR look promising.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I did not read all 6 pages of replies but...
My advice is go do something else with your time maybe !?? Its video games for hells sake. I like games myself and play often but the changes in the industry just make me choose what I want to spend money on. Personally I do not like real money / micro transaction / f2p cash shop games and simply do not play them. But in no way does it ever effect my mood or my wallet.
If others have the cash to spend and want to spend it in the cash shop then more power to them. Does not concern me at all.
You seem to bring personal beefs into your posts. I get the starving out of work artist bit. Only you can change that, and a good start would be to quit playing and worry about something as trivial as a video game and get some skills that make you more valuable in the marketplace. Learn some skills, get a better job, make more money, quit brooding about the direction of video games.
For someone who is unemployed or underemployed to be worried about anything video game related is ludicrous at best.
I agree with your post but just have to say one more time for the OP. If you have no money this model benefits you, it doesn't hurt you. Your entire point made no sense to begin with. The cash shops aren't going away, they are in just about every type of game now. The large majority of them don't let you buy useful stuff, they are mostly there for fluff or maybe like XP bonuses or saving a little time unlocking things you can get anyway. This business model is a huge advantage to the player who doesn't want to spend a lot on games. As someone with 3 gaming age kids I'm super pumped about more and more going F2P so we aren't spending so much on gaming. Beats the $50-$60 initial investment system by miles.
OP, essentialy the nature of the people who sold and made these products changed. These used to be craftsmen who ran small companies and believed in giving thier customers a good product at a fair price. They've turned into vast entertainment companies who crank out "product" like they crank out toilet paper....and they resort to all the psychological tricks that casino's and big gambling does to eek out every penny possible from each customer. Gone is the pride of craftsmanship and concern for the individual customer. Gone is the pride in thier own brand....all that is considered is maximizing next quarters proffit reports to increase short term stock prices. Even the smaller independant companies often fall prey to this attitude due to the saturation of the market and the pressure of competition.
You can see echo's of what this industry used to be in other smaller, niche gaming verticles such as Turn Based Strategy Games.....but for the MMORPG it's gone.
Origin were owned by EA when they made uo.
EQ was built under the ownership of Sony, ditto swg, planetside & eq2
Ac was built under the ownership of microsoft.
coh - nc soft
Of them pre wow mmos, there's only daoc, eve and Ao that would fit the "small and independent" category.
Put simply, once upon a time people played MMOs to get what they wanted - Titles, items, status, etc. And everyone had the same challenges and requirements to fulfill to do so.
Now, people pay their way through MMOs to get what they want. Anything that involves playing the game is seen as an obstacle (or a "grind") getting in the way of what they want. Being able to buy their way around it is considered a good thing.
When someone says "$15 a month to play a MMO is a rip-off", because "their time is too limited to make it worthwhile", but then turns around and argues that $20+ in a single purchase is a great deal, because "they chose to spend it", then that's really saying it all.
Seriously. That's a popular argument used by many who defend F2P/Cash Shops; "it's a great deal because I choose to pay it".
In a nutshell:
That's their.. -ahem- "logic". Just think about that and it starts to make sense.
When people are willing and eager to dupe themselves into that kind of thinking, is it any wonder developers/publishers aren't embracing and cashing in on it as much as they can? They don't even have to sell people on the idea. The people are selling themselves.
Developers are able to eliminate monthly subs because, frankly, they can.
First of all ... about this. You are missing many factors.
P2P - Limited time + Box price $60 + $15 per month = Bad Deal (You have no choice when or how much to pay if you want to play it)
F2P - Limited time + Free (with the occasional purchase) = Great deal (You have a choice of when and how much you are willing to pay and your not obligated to pay at all when you want to play)
B2P - Limited time + Box Price (Never having to pay ever again) = Also great deal. (you do have the option to pay a little more if you want cash shop items, but they are most certainly not required and are only for looks usually.
See the issue is, you are only viewing it the way you want to view it, and not for how it actually is. In other words, you are viewing it through you own tainted eye glasses. So, who's logic is wrong?
But hey lets go a step further.
A person can play a year on a F2P game and only spend $60 total through out the entire time. They can spend 0. Or they can spend 100s. While a P2P game It's $60 +15 x 11 = $225.
So again .. tell me which is the better deal?
I know your feelings on the subject quite well, and you know mine.
The one thing that is usually not mentioned is that the game experience itself is changed by the intrusion of marketing in the F2P or B2P + light cash shop in the game.
The best analogy that I can think of is free TV where you get 40 minutes of content and 20 minutes of ads per hour vs. premium pay channels like HBO with no advertising. Game of Thrones just wouldn't be the same with the reduced content to fit a one hour commercial TV slot with all the ad interruptions.
I get that some don't seem to mind the MMO + sales environment of F2P, and if you're one of those not bothered by it, it's a good deal. But it does annoy me.
Often you see posts here about MMO quality expressed as "Is it a world or is it a game?" If there's a cash shop and microtransactions in it, it has no hope in hell of being a world.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED