Originally posted by Wizardry Well "tools" most certainly can work and we really have seen so little of it,there is nothing of magnitude to draw any conclusions from.
All you need to know is that the "TOOLS" is what games are made from,so of course they can work if the tools are good and the users are given full access.The implementation of the tools also matters.It has worked miracles in other games ,mostly FPS games however in the MMORPG industry there are some huge drawbacks,example allotted bandwidth and WHAT you are allowed to add into the game and COST.
Giving players tools the way they have been given tools in a game like Torchlight probably wouldn't work in an MMORPG. The players that managed to hack their way into writing mods for Minecraft are doing things that probably wouldn't work in an MMORPG either. Things like this seem to work really well because all the mods can be isolated from each other, and players can pick or choose the ones they want to use and the ones they want to interact with. If there's a mod somebody doesn't like, or only likes in a certain context, they can skip that mod, or only use it in a certain context.
Now, if "tools" means "game mechanics", then yeah, it can work in an MMORPG just fine. In that context, every MMORPG gives players "tools" to create a fun time with other players, it's just that some tools are more limited than others.
Eve lets players create corporations, and players from rival corporations can infiltrate each other to gather information, secretes and even destroy corporations from the inside. That is really interesting game play, and it's all player driven, and it seems to work really well. Players do not have total freedom though, but this is good because it leads to some fairly complex game play. Players are engaging in behaviors that are beyond the base mechanics provided by the developer.
On the other hand, games like Mortal Online don't seem to give players enough tools to work with, but give them more freedom to just do whatever they want. The total freedom the players have actually leads to much less complex game play. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there doesn't seem to be a second level of player behavior that happens beyond the provided game mechanics.
On a side note, Visual Studio is an excellent tool for what it's meant to do. Even the "Express" versions are really good tools for developing general purpose applications using .Net libraries. I'm not sure what this has to do with Minecraft or Terraria.
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Maybe it's the idea that since games like Minecraft give players tools to create brand new things and ideas that don't currently exist, something like Visual Studio, which is free and a fully developed IDE would be the ultimate tool because someone could create a game from scratch instead of building mods based off an existing game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Look at the modding community. They are putting out mods that enhance the player experience, so much so steam added a workshop so people could add to their steam games.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:1) The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on. I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.2) The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.3) The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher. And it worked, splendidly.
But it couldn't make up for the fact that the actual gameplay was awful so the game still failed. It isn't just about giving players the tools, it is about creating a full gaming package.
Look at the modding community. They are putting out mods that enhance the player experience, so much so steam added a workshop so people could add to their steam games.
End thread
And most mods are crap.
For every headline grabbing good mod, there are 1000 run-of-the-mill amateur ones that are not worth the time to look at.
Look at the modding community. They are putting out mods that enhance the player experience, so much so steam added a workshop so people could add to their steam games.
End thread
And most mods are crap.
For every headline grabbing good mod, there are 1000 run-of-the-mill amateur ones that are not worth the time to look at.
Who cares? I play the good ones and ignore the bad ones. Good mods make games worth playing to the point where I'll sometimes avoid buying a single player game if there's no mod support or at least it's always a big factor in my purchasing decisions.
Originally posted by iridescence Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by KillsmallchiLook at the modding community. They are putting out mods that enhance the player experience, so much so steam added a workshop so people could add to their steam games. End thread
And most mods are crap.For every headline grabbing good mod, there are 1000 run-of-the-mill amateur ones that are not worth the time to look at.Who cares? I play the good ones and ignore the bad ones. Good mods make games worth playing to the point where I'll sometimes avoid buying a single player game if there's no mod support or at least it's always a big factor in my purchasing decisions.
This is why mods are great for games that are not MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is why mods are great for games that are not MMORPGs.
Agree. I don't like mods in MMOs either. In an MMO everybody should be playing the same game. Mods in single player games are an awesome source of free content and game improvement though.
OP I think your question is pretty interesting. I've actually been thinking about this in the real world. People keeps asking for computers/robots that will make their lives easier. People are asking for easier software to use even if that might eliminate the persons job at some point because anyone will be able to do it.
Personally I'd rather do things than have the computer do it for me. It's more rewarding to me. I'd rather see people create content in a game and see what they come up with. It will probably be more interesting than whatever developers come up with or what computers can generate from various different algorithms. Likewise it's more interesting to figure things out for yourself than to follow a GPS or read have a tutorial. That's not to say it's bad to have these things or their not useful, but you usually get more memorable experiences from doing things yourself. This from a person who has loved tech from the late 80s.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:
1) The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on. I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.
2) The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.
3) The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.
In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher. And it worked, splendidly.
But it couldn't make up for the fact that the actual gameplay was awful so the game still failed. It isn't just about giving players the tools, it is about creating a full gaming package.
Gameplay did not kill the game. It was still in the black, making decent money, supporting its team, etc. There were even reasonable buyout offers. It was killed as an accounting trick to make a business statement look better. NCSoft -- We Kill Worlds....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Comments
Giving players tools the way they have been given tools in a game like Torchlight probably wouldn't work in an MMORPG. The players that managed to hack their way into writing mods for Minecraft are doing things that probably wouldn't work in an MMORPG either. Things like this seem to work really well because all the mods can be isolated from each other, and players can pick or choose the ones they want to use and the ones they want to interact with. If there's a mod somebody doesn't like, or only likes in a certain context, they can skip that mod, or only use it in a certain context.
Now, if "tools" means "game mechanics", then yeah, it can work in an MMORPG just fine. In that context, every MMORPG gives players "tools" to create a fun time with other players, it's just that some tools are more limited than others.
Eve lets players create corporations, and players from rival corporations can infiltrate each other to gather information, secretes and even destroy corporations from the inside. That is really interesting game play, and it's all player driven, and it seems to work really well. Players do not have total freedom though, but this is good because it leads to some fairly complex game play. Players are engaging in behaviors that are beyond the base mechanics provided by the developer.
On the other hand, games like Mortal Online don't seem to give players enough tools to work with, but give them more freedom to just do whatever they want. The total freedom the players have actually leads to much less complex game play. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there doesn't seem to be a second level of player behavior that happens beyond the provided game mechanics.
On a side note, Visual Studio is an excellent tool for what it's meant to do. Even the "Express" versions are really good tools for developing general purpose applications using .Net libraries. I'm not sure what this has to do with Minecraft or Terraria.
**
Maybe it's the idea that since games like Minecraft give players tools to create brand new things and ideas that don't currently exist, something like Visual Studio, which is free and a fully developed IDE would be the ultimate tool because someone could create a game from scratch instead of building mods based off an existing game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Look at the modding community. They are putting out mods that enhance the player experience, so much so steam added a workshop so people could add to their steam games.
End thread
But it couldn't make up for the fact that the actual gameplay was awful so the game still failed. It isn't just about giving players the tools, it is about creating a full gaming package.
And most mods are crap.
For every headline grabbing good mod, there are 1000 run-of-the-mill amateur ones that are not worth the time to look at.
Who cares? I play the good ones and ignore the bad ones. Good mods make games worth playing to the point where I'll sometimes avoid buying a single player game if there's no mod support or at least it's always a big factor in my purchasing decisions.
Who cares? I play the good ones and ignore the bad ones. Good mods make games worth playing to the point where I'll sometimes avoid buying a single player game if there's no mod support or at least it's always a big factor in my purchasing decisions.
This is why mods are great for games that are not MMORPGs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
erm.... sorry to burst your bubble but terraria does not play in minecraft's league ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Agree. I don't like mods in MMOs either. In an MMO everybody should be playing the same game. Mods in single player games are an awesome source of free content and game improvement though.
OP I think your question is pretty interesting. I've actually been thinking about this in the real world. People keeps asking for computers/robots that will make their lives easier. People are asking for easier software to use even if that might eliminate the persons job at some point because anyone will be able to do it.
Personally I'd rather do things than have the computer do it for me. It's more rewarding to me. I'd rather see people create content in a game and see what they come up with. It will probably be more interesting than whatever developers come up with or what computers can generate from various different algorithms. Likewise it's more interesting to figure things out for yourself than to follow a GPS or read have a tutorial. That's not to say it's bad to have these things or their not useful, but you usually get more memorable experiences from doing things yourself. This from a person who has loved tech from the late 80s.
Minecraft works! Make every mmorpg like minecraft!
MOBA works! Just look at league of legend! Every mmorpg should play like LOL!
PORN works! Look at how many people download porn everyday. Every mmorpg should include more nudity!
DayZ works! If they make WarZ it'll surely work too!
Moding works! Just look at steam. That'll surely work in mmorpg.
The movie inception works! If mmorpg only take element from the movie inception it'll surely work too!
Eve works! If they only make a mech warrior version of it called perpetual online it'll work too!
Do I need to mention game of thrones work? If mmorpg play like the TV series it'll surely work too. If only they make a game of thrones mmorpg...
Gameplay did not kill the game. It was still in the black, making decent money, supporting its team, etc. There were even reasonable buyout offers. It was killed as an accounting trick to make a business statement look better. NCSoft -- We Kill Worlds....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.