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[Column] General: Endgame Smendgame

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,585MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

Ah, the much-maligned and ballyhooed end game conversation. One of our favorites, and that of our readers, to be sure. In today's Tinge's Touchy Subject, we talk about the most controversial of subjects. Read on before heading to the comments to thrash it out yet again!

My problem with the end game is that it has become all encompassing. Nobody plays online games anymore for the journey. Nobody stops to look around, take a breath, and experience the digital flowers. Everybody is too quick to judge, too quick to /dance their character to the furthest reaches of content and proclaim it all “just not enough”.

Read more of Adam Tingle's Touchy Subjects: Endgame Smendgame.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
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Comments

  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member
    Great piece. Amen.  Now we need more games that give you something to savor!  I think part of this is lack on depth in the "grind" of many MMOs, no kidding you just wanted to get through it after a while!
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon

    Lol, nice one. For someone who got stuff like "you don't play properly" and "game starts at the cap" numerous times since years, it was an amusing read. But I don't understand why the hate, it's not even worth to waste the slighest amount of energy onto them :)

     

    The movie analogue wasn't precise, they're more like someone who puts in a great movie, sets it to 32x speed, and after it's over the idiot puts a loop onto the last 10 seconds of the credits, and watches that for days, 24/7 :) What's even worse, these are the ones who call themselves "hardcore player", and the ones who's stating to know the movie / game the most...

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    I agree with your basic sentiments  but which current gen MMOs are you referring to that give you the option of leveling slowly and enjoying the world? Seriously, I would like to play them. Every one I try to play, just through the basic questing I'm at endgame in under a month of playing 2 or 3 hours a day. I want to take my time but today's games don't allow that. Like with many things that are wrong with MMOs I blame WoW's business model. They figured out they could hook people on the gear treadmill which is much cheaper than making the actual world interesting and expanding it.

     

     

     
  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    Where is the competitive spirit in this piece? Good endgame stirrs that competitive spark that drives players to improve, stay up late and theorycraft to oblivion. If a game's endgame is bad it's because the content isn't challenging or meaning enough to keep people trying to excel at it. Endgame isn't the problem, it's games that continually make it simpler, no longer require strong guilds or anything besides button mashing/zerging.

    That being said, the leveling content can still be enjoyable for competitive gamers, they just don't focus on that aspect.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Where is the competitive spirit in this piece? Good endgame stirrs that competitive spark that drives players to improve, stay up late and theorycraft to oblivion. If a game's endgame is bad it's because the content isn't challenging or meaning enough to keep people trying to excel at it. Endgame isn't the problem, it's games that continually make it simpler, no longer require strong guilds or anything besides button mashing/zerging.

    That being said, the leveling content can still be enjoyable for competitive gamers, they just don't focus on that aspect.

    It's that rush to the end and "Competitive Drive" that drills people into the endgame grind. The author was saying that pretty much is the issue.

     

    It's like playing SWTOR (A game who's story is it's strong point) and going into a flashpoint and getting "Spacebar please" at every story point.

     

    What ever happened to having fun playing? This whole "E-Sport" movement is what is making games dull and repetitive.

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  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Potomac, MDPosts: 1,015Member Uncommon

    The reason why MMOs focus on the end game is because an MMO is meant to last for months, if not years, and honestly without some sort of craptacular grind or time wasting system to slow people down, no budget or development team in the world is capable of pumping out a long enough journey to last even a casual player a YEAR.

    Think of how EXPENSIVE Final Fantasy VII was to produce.  How expensive 8 was. How expensive 9 and 10 and 12 were. They costed a LOT of money to make, without needing to pay for all the things an MMO has to like server costs and customer support.  And yet those games only last like, what, two weeks to one month of casual play if you don't bother with their "endgame" optional side quests?

     

    Now how on earth do you expect an MMO, with all the extra costs and resource-needs tacked on like server costs and customer support and multiple classes, etc, to have a journey that lasts longer than a huge budget Final Fantasy game? (or any huge budget single player game, really. I'm only using Final Fantasy's single player games as an example cause they tend to have big budgets)

     

    You can't.  This is why an MMO NEEDS an end game.  The journey simply WILL NOT LAST THAT LONG, so if an MMO can't keep a "bubble wrap line to the exit" there to keep players occupied for a couple months it takes to develop a week's worth of hopefully-quality content (for casuals, as opposed to a grind content with tons of artificial time-wasting systems, also known as "end-game" to most players), then players will leave once the journey is over in one month. AND THE JOURNEY ABSOLUTELY WILL END IN A MONTH unless the dev team does things like make leveling atrociously slow and fill the MMO with tons of time wasters and beef gates. AND WHO THE HELL WANTS THAT?  How would you like a game that forces you to spend hours upon hours of grinding just to continue the journey, because no dev team and budget size in the world is capable of making a journey that will last longer than a month if they don't implement some horrific grind or time-wasting system to slow you down on that journey.

     

    Hence the end-game.  If you want a game that will last you years (which MMOs are supposed to do), then end-game is the only option. It simply isn't feasible for a dev team or budget to create a journey that last years.

     

    This is for theme-park MMOs.  Obviously, in a sand box MMO, YOU are the one that's supposed to be creating your own journey.  However, even in that case, there's a reason why actual sand boxes in real life don't last years either before the kids get bored without new toys, so sand box MMOs aren't exactly the easiest thing to make, either.  And they have tons of other issues as an MMO that real life sand boxes don't (in real life, you can't dump your kids in a sand box filled with hundreds of other kids for a month without expecting problems, for one thing).  But that's another topic, since end-game in this context I assume is meant to apply to theme-park MMOs (sand-box MMOs aren't supposed to have an end in the first place).

     
     
     
     
  • ZapzapZapzap Someplace, WYPosts: 224Member Uncommon

    The simple answer to the OPs question is endgame is where the non trivial content is and it where one spends 99% of their time playing a MMO.

     

    With almost all MMOs having superfast leveling taking 2 days or less to reach level cap endgame is where almost all our time will be spent.

     

    Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Where is the competitive spirit in this piece? Good endgame stirrs that competitive spark that drives players to improve, stay up late and theorycraft to oblivion.

    I think it's two separate things (but maybe it's just my point of view...)

    For me group rpg (both pen'n'paper and online) is about cooperation and not competition. That's why I don't pvp for example in rpg's, if I want to play against a player, there are fps, tps, strategy, card, racing, etc. games where I can do that. Rpg isn't the place of e-peen meters and stuff... imo of course.

    Same with theorycrafting, I love to do that aspect (even mentioned it many times around here :) ), but it has nothing to do with competition as well, nor min-maxing. It's only about building new and fun ways to play a character or to interact with the world. Imo again.

     

    Originally posted by Zapzap

    Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.

    wow, thank you for opening my eyes :) Now I know that I haven't played mmo's in the last 6-7 years - since I never wasted any second on dull and boring endgame. What a relief to knowing the truth, I can't wait to quickly jump into an endgame, any endgame now that I'm illuminated by your wisdom :)

  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member
    Originally posted by Zapzap

    The simple answer to the OPs question is endgame is where the non trivial content is and it where one spends 99% of their time playing a MMO.

     

    With almost all MMOs having superfast leveling taking 2 days or less to reach level cap endgame is where almost all our time will be spent.

     

    Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.

    Or this is the problem. In EQ, pre-PoP, it took MONTHS to reach level cap, then months more to get a full raid set. Games should start at level 1, not be a tutorial to the endgame.

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  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    Originally posted by Tygranir

    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Where is the competitive spirit in this piece? Good endgame stirrs that competitive spark that drives players to improve, stay up late and theorycraft to oblivion. If a game's endgame is bad it's because the content isn't challenging or meaning enough to keep people trying to excel at it. Endgame isn't the problem, it's games that continually make it simpler, no longer require strong guilds or anything besides button mashing/zerging.

    That being said, the leveling content can still be enjoyable for competitive gamers, they just don't focus on that aspect.

    It's that rush to the end and "Competitive Drive" that drills people into the endgame grind. The author was saying that pretty much is the issue.

     

    It's like playing SWTOR (A game who's story is it's strong point) and going into a flashpoint and getting "Spacebar please at every story point.

     

    What ever happened to having fun playing? This whole "E-Sport" movement is what is making games dull and repetitive.

     

    I concur with your observation, but disagree with the conclusion. Some would argue that making the process to reach the most challenging and competitive content as the cause of a game becoming dull and boring. In that same regard, less than challenging and overly accessible endgame can also contribute toward the dullness. Game design is the issue, not the concept of endgame.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Potomac, MDPosts: 1,015Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Originally posted by Zapzap

    The simple answer to the OPs question is endgame is where the non trivial content is and it where one spends 99% of their time playing a MMO.

     

    With almost all MMOs having superfast leveling taking 2 days or less to reach level cap endgame is where almost all our time will be spent.

     

    Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.

    Or this is the problem. In EQ, pre-PoP, it took MONTHS to reach level cap, then months more to get a full raid set. Games should start at level 1, not be a tutorial to the endgame.

    Full-raid set is end game, so for the purpose of this post, I'll stick to talking about why MMOs these days do not take months to reach the level cap.

     

    And the reason why they don't is because why should I play a game that takes me months to experience the full journey when I can play a single player Final Fantasy game or other top tier RPG that has the same length storyline but DOESN'T require me to do stupid things like kill the same enemy over and over for a week just to get strong enough to move on to the next section of the story/journey?  If an MMO extends its journey by simply making it take longer to level, as opposed to making the journey (amount of areas, dungeons, and storyline) itself longer (which, sadly, is unfeasible to do forever at an acceptable rate no matter how big your budget and dev team is), then that's simply artificially extending the journey. Sure, you'll get a longer journey because you spent an entire friggin' week grinding the same mobs over and over again just so you could see the next area/cutscene/boss/storyline paragraph, but only because you've done stuff the vast majority of people today have realized is basically a big fat waste of human life (time).  Meanwhile, in a single player RPG, I get to see the next area/cutscene/boss/storyline in an hour or so without having to spam chat channels looking for groups and then repeating the same dungeon or monster over and over again for a week before I move on to something new.

     

    Sure, unlike a Final Fantasy game, I can play an MMO with other people, but is that really worth it?  Is playing with others grinding the same stupid monster over and over really worth grinding the same stupid monster over and over again just so I can take the next step in my journey?  Sure, it was worth it to some of the people who stayed with EQ, but the vast majority of the masses (required to help an MMO recover it's huge budget costs) won't stand for that.

     

    Everquest and most other MMOs of that era survived because there were no other options if you wanted to play an RPG-type game with other players online, and thus could get away with stupidly steep leveling curves.  Eventually, however, people wised up and realized that, gee, grinding the same mob over and over again just so you could advance to the next step of the journey REALLY REALLY SUCKED.

     

    Of course, once you get rid of that grind and those suck tacular time-wasters, you end up with a whole different can of worms.  And that's gee, now that you've reached the end of the journey in a couple weeks (just like you would in any single player game), why even bother sticking around?

     

    The answer that MMO companies have come up with is "end-game".

     

    .....and now we're finding a whole new can of worms with THAT.  But the main point here isn't whether an end-game is good or not (it isn't, IMHO), but why so many MMOs and players focus on the end-game instead of the journey (although I do admit MMO companies tend to make leveling TOO fast. There's probably a better way in between EQ's grind fest and today's "2 days to reach max level" fest that exists somewhere, but in the end, the entire concept is pretty flawed).

     

    Again, you can try to solve the problem by making your MMO a sand-box type game instead, but that opens up a ton of other worm cans (of which going into them would be going too far off topic).

     
     
     
     
  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by Zapzap

    Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.

    this is simply not true.

     

    i spend very little time on a game's forums, except for off days when i dont have the time or inclination to play. and i have had very few characters at level cap over the years, for those games with a level cap.

     

    most of my time in a game is spent leveling. i have found, and continue to find, endgame to be a boring set of goals. i would rather grind mobs than spend all my time in endgame.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Get rid of levels and everyone can be happy. You can just play and enjoy and your friends can play thier endgame because the entire game is endgame and the entire game is the journey. It's all a matter of perception. Get rid of que's and make the gates to the dungeon or raid or whatever endgame you think your playing be dynamic. Let's say to find the entrance to any dungeon or raid you must find the gatekeeper first, either by questing for clues or simply by exploring.
  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member
    Originally posted by Rockniss
    Get rid of levels and everyone can be happy. You can just play and enjoy and your friends can play thier endgame because the entire game is endgame and the entire game is the journey. It's all a matter of perception. Get rid of que's and make the gates to the dungeon or raid or whatever endgame you think your playing be dynamic. Let's say to find the entrance to any dungeon or raid you must find the gatekeeper first, either by questing for clues or simply by exploring.

    Sounds like Everquest Next.

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  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    I remember in true Mmorpg's like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, there was never mention of endgame. We enjoyed the whole game and all it had to offer, we didn't need a carrot on the stick gear grind to have fun.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    Originally posted by Tygranir

     

    And the reason why they don't is because why should I play a game that takes me months to experience the full journey when I can play a single player Final Fantasy game or other top tier RPG that has the same length storyline but DOESN'T require me to do stupid things like kill the same enemy over and over for a week just to get strong enough to move on to the next section of the story/journey?  If an MMO extends its journey by simply making it take longer to level, as opposed to making the journey (amount of areas, dungeons, and storyline) itself longer (which, sadly, is unfeasible to do forever at an acceptable rate no matter how big your budget and dev team is), then that's simply artificially extending the journey.

     

    Because my main motivation for playing isn't to be rewarded by cut scenes or new monster skins or phat lootz. If the combat and character progression are deep, challenging  and interesting, and maybe I have some interesting people in my guild to chat with and the game world is alive with interesting lore,  I'm perfectly happy killing the same mob in the same area for weeks.

     

    I don't really expect you to understand. You seem to want your MMO to be an inferior single player RPG that you play online  before morphing in to a Diablo type game where you grind on the same instance for loot over and over (why don't you mind killing the same mob over and over at end game by the way?)

    I want something completely different from an MMO.

     

     

      

  • VodunVodun North Bay, ONPosts: 77Member

    I agree completely, the end game I have experienced has been much less enjoyable as the journey it took to get to "The End". It is just more of the same, but more boring than before.

    The term "End Game" says it all, the game has ended, for this character anyway, so time to start another and start a new adventure.

    My vision of the "End Game" is completely different than what I have experienced. I expected my now powerhouse character to now be taken down a different path of challenges not just stronger mobs to grind. Grinding even larger numbers of mobs that stand around to be slaughtered is not any way an Epic transition to new challenges. Just to get gear that will allow you to kill even more stronger mobs.

    In my mind there really should not be an "End Game" to an MMO. A transition to another way to play and interact with the world and other players, yes, not just more of the same.

    An idea comes to mind from my AD&D days when my high level all powerful Evil Wizard was retired and became an NPC in the Game that was a new source of adventures for the other game playing characters. He sent them on quests for magic tombs in the most dreadful places, he conspired with the Orc lords to take over the kingdom and then betrayed them in the end.

    Well the game design would need to be more dynamic for these things to happen but I can always have hope. Until MMO game design becomes more dynamic there is little hope of any real change.

     

    Vodun

     

     

     

  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    I believe the endgame needs to be a journey unto itself, not just mindless grinding; and I can't think of any game that has balanced this correctly. Wow for example is to much about endgame and not enough about the journey or the world. Gw2 on the other hand, doesn't have enough of a carrot on a stick to keep a person playing every night for months on end. 

    This is why I think Wildstar *might* have a chance with me personally. With its endgame raids tied into housing and warfronts, and its level content focused on entertaining different playstyles, it may come close to the kind of balance of endgame and journey that I'm looking for. 

    image
  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member

    People will do this in every game that has boring, repetitive, completely forgettable non endgame content...which unfortunately means 99% of MMOs released in the last 10 years.

     

    There's nothing to stop and savor when the only thing that changes is where the npc is standing that gives the quest and which 10 mobs you have to kill/which drops to collect/which npc to fedex to.

     

     

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    To be honest this is where my hopes for what TSW can become come from. TSW has a talent for increasing the journey. even after endgame we are having more story, more progression, more events. The game just keeps going.

    Im also getting some hopes for Wildstar, it looks like there are Non instance based things to do post level cap, However if that actually happens will be told upon release.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • kkarrabbasskkarrabbass Palm Springs, CAPosts: 152Member

    Originally, endgame was not even a part of the game. It was something, which you could not avoid with limited content. You cannot progress indefinitely, because quest line was over. Developers were trying to provide something to keep those players busy until expansion will come out. However, as it very often happens some player start to make lemonade from this lemon and found even some advantages of not be able to progress any further. Let us be frank, it is the only thing, which make it different from the rest of the game: nobody is above you. I do not know how significant it is for your self-esteem.  For some- it is probably very important. I do not know, I am not a psychotherapist.

    Competition. I even heard once (it probably was JZ, who said) something like this: “I am looking for a tricks to BEAT the game faster”. Is the game really a test? Do you really need a game to improve you confidence?  I do understand desire to have a challenging game content (no matter PVE or PVP or both) But as long as you are playing mmRPG and not some  other mmos, good challenging, competitive element of the game cannot justify  story sacrificing.   And there is no story in typical endgame. At some point some developers even start to focus on so-called endgame content more (or it seemed that way) than on the rest of the game. So, we have seen players finishing the game in a few days. And it was not unexpected, it was developers decision.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    The reason why MMOs focus on the end game is because an MMO is meant to last for months, if not years, and honestly without some sort of craptacular grind or time wasting system to slow people down, no budget or development team in the world is capable of pumping out a long enough journey to last even a casual player a YEAR.Think of how EXPENSIVE Final Fantasy VII was to produce.  How expensive 8 was. How expensive 9 and 10 and 12 were. They costed a LOT of money to make, without needing to pay for all the things an MMO has to like server costs and customer support.  And yet those games only last like, what, two weeks to one month of casual play if you don't bother with their "endgame" optional side quests?Now how on earth do you expect an MMO, with all the extra costs and resource-needs tacked on like server costs and customer support and multiple classes, etc, to have a journey that lasts longer than a huge budget Final Fantasy game? (or any huge budget single player game, really. I'm only using Final Fantasy's single player games as an example cause they tend to have big budgets)You can't.  This is why an MMO NEEDS an end game.  The journey simply WILL NOT LAST THAT LONG, so if an MMO can't keep a "bubble wrap line to the exit" there to keep players occupied for a couple months it takes to develop a week's worth of hopefully-quality content (for casuals, as opposed to a grind content with tons of artificial time-wasting systems, also known as "end-game" to most players), then players will leave once the journey is over in one month. AND THE JOURNEY ABSOLUTELY WILL END IN A MONTH unless the dev team does things like make leveling atrociously slow and fill the MMO with tons of time wasters and beef gates. AND WHO THE HELL WANTS THAT?  How would you like a game that forces you to spend hours upon hours of grinding just to continue the journey, because no dev team and budget size in the world is capable of making a journey that will last longer than a month if they don't implement some horrific grind or time-wasting system to slow you down on that journey.Hence the end-game.  If you want a game that will last you years (which MMOs are supposed to do), then end-game is the only option. It simply isn't feasible for a dev team or budget to create a journey that last years.This is for theme-park MMOs.  Obviously, in a sand box MMO, YOU are the one that's supposed to be creating your own journey.  However, even in that case, there's a reason why actual sand boxes in real life don't last years either before the kids get bored without new toys, so sand box MMOs aren't exactly the easiest thing to make, either.  And they have tons of other issues as an MMO that real life sand boxes don't (in real life, you can't dump your kids in a sand box filled with hundreds of other kids for a month without expecting problems, for one thing).  But that's another topic, since end-game in this context I assume is meant to apply to theme-park MMOs (sand-box MMOs aren't supposed to have an end in the first place).
    I disagree. By giving players many multiples and varieties of activities in a game, the length played extends exponentially, unless the ONLY activity you care about is fighting.

    Sure, EQ had a LOT of timesinks in it, but I still spent about 3 years there never reaching level cap with any character. Timesinks do not have to be grinds. If a player enjoys the activity, they don't care. Combat is a timesink. For some, it is also a grind. For others, it is the sole reason they play and they can not get enough of it. Think of how many hours you have put into any MMO. What percentage of that time was used for fighting? Was it fun? Did you ever feel it was a grind?

    Gone is the journey from MMOs, lost to the ever sought after "end game." There were players from the old MMORPGs that raced to the "end game." They were far fewer in number and there were varied activities to do once there. Since the majority of players play this way now, this is what MMO producers make.

    If only players who desire a more in-depth MMO with the RPG aspect (journey) still intact, could just NOT purchase every new MMO that gets released, maybe the message would be received better. That seems to be too much to ask for these days...

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    Endgame is overrated. It is all about the journey to the end, the adventure.
    30
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    How would you like a game that forces you to spend hours upon hours of grinding just to continue the journey, because no dev team and budget size in the world is capable of making a journey that will last longer than a month if they don't implement some horrific grind or time-wasting system to slow you down on that journey.

    Hence the end-game.  If you want a game that will last you years (which MMOs are supposed to do), then end-game is the only option. It simply isn't feasible for a dev team or budget to create a journey that last years.


    I disagree. By giving players many multiples and varieties of activities in a game, the length played extends exponentially, unless the ONLY activity you care about is fighting.

     

    Sure, EQ had a LOT of timesinks in it, but I still spent about 3 years there never reaching level cap with any character. Timesinks do not have to be grinds. If a player enjoys the activity, they don't care. Combat is a timesink. For some, it is also a grind. For others, it is the sole reason they play and they can not get enough of it. Think of how many hours you have put into any MMO. What percentage of that time was used for fighting? Was it fun? Did you ever feel it was a grind?

    Gone is the journey from MMOs, lost to the ever sought after "end game." There were players from the old MMORPGs that raced to the "end game." They were far fewer in number and there were varied activities to do once there. Since the majority of players play this way now, this is what MMO producers make.

    If only players who desire a more in-depth MMO with the RPG aspect (journey) still intact, could just NOT purchase every new MMO that gets released, maybe the message would be received better. That seems to be too much to ask for these days...

    Exactly this. I skipped the "majority of the playerbase wants it so that's what we get" from my post since it sounds like a broken record from me, but I'm glad you brought it up :) And sadly, with the advance of f2p the message-sending capability of players is diminishing... daily login counts, store transaction numbers, etc. are more important numbers nowadays than box sales. Oh, and a huge +1 for the "combat is a boring, grindy timesink" part, for me it definitely is :)

     

    For the above,

    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    How would you like a game that forces you to spend hours upon hours of grinding just to continue the journey

    look it from the endgame's way. How would you like a game that forces you to spend hours upon hours of grinding just to .... for what exactly? A slightly better gear, which is irrelevant since you're already at the end of the journey? :) Yep, that slightly better gear is giving you access to another few months of grind of the very same stuff - on a harder tier! How awesome! :D Not.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,434Member Uncommon

    I think it is a given that the end game talk started with Wow.WHY you ask,i think it obvious,no middle game,just free xp for following hand held linear quests,basically everything a MMORPG should NOT be.

     First of all design the game properly aka NO ALTS type design "learn from Square Enix".Then you create enough fun with combat,lots of fun classes and constant content fun throughout each leveled class and you have a fun game that doesn't even need to mention end game.

    Square Enix did a real good job with creating longevity for about 7-8 years then greed ruined their designs/content and game.

    I feel it is sort of easy to take gaming to a next phase w/o talk of end game.You create new content related to your achievements in classes.Examples would not just be level related but everything related such as your thieving skill and your axe and dagger skills,your avoidance skill as a thief and offensive skills as a warrior.Also needed would be to unlock a certain line of quests as well and perhaps a certain craft also.Perhaps these abilities would unlock the ability to flee, block with shields and unlock certain combos.

    Then you can unlock other kills such as building skills by achieving several crafts.

    Basically the whole idea is to create reason for players to unlock ALL jobs and play ALL content .As is games are so lame the ONLY reason players do any type of content is to get the best loot,so one dimensional game play.

     


    Samoan Diamond

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