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mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member

hello.

today i came here wondering, RPG : role playing game.

RPG used to be about story adventure and going through this adventure, RPG like ELDER SROLLS , or diablo or witcher or any RPG out there, they are all out living the world doing anything you can find side quests, main quests, or just wondering around.

But no in today's mmoRPG all we see is end game, everyone wants to know what about endgame, how main raid do i have or how many things is there to do, now while this is important and essential and i don't blame anyone for asking about it because it is important and you can couninue playing without it, but what about arriving to endgame!!!, how can i arrive to the point where i do have raiding or any endgame content?.

quests are the key iits the adenture we go through to arrive to endgame, its living this world we are in helping people randome one but helping the world, but whille questing is some kind of boring i think with improving it, mmos could do something great could rise again.

thanx for reading

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Comments

  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon
    so... what can be done to "improve" quest?
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    so... what can be done to "improve" quest?

    Stop making them the main focus of progression, or get rid of them completely. 

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    The key is letting us do our own thing, not coming up with some goofy story based quests. Create a world for us to experience, not a bunch of quests that we do in the same way as everyone else.

    Also I find it really funny that you called Diablo an example of a RPG. The diablo series is just awful when it comes to story.

  • vort3xvort3x Jebem vam materPosts: 129Member

    I've been thinking about stuff like this a lot, and quite simply I came to a conclusion that a perfect mmoRPG would not need quests at all, but would rather have a world so rich and full of options that the RPG element would be completely down to every individual and community as a whole. :P

    Nowadays ThemePark MMOs are forcing players into some quest driven story-line that often feels like you're playing a very bad version of Skyrim...

    In older MMORPGs your story in the game was more dependent on your interaction with the community... and that's good.

  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon

    So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

    killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

    Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

    As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon

    Have we misunderstood it? "we" haven't, but the majority of the present playerbase have a completely missed idea of rpg - yourself included :) "RPG like ELDER SROLLS , or diablo or witcher" lol, diablo is rpg? that was a good one. And nope, the key is not questing, it's the story (whether it's a world's story or the character's personal story) and the play.

    Rpg was all about the story right from Gygax. Or call it an adventure. The numbers are just in for the random events (combat included), but with a good GM you needed to use them rarely - not to mention games like Amber, without any dice rolls (since it's a diceless game).

    C-Rpgs focused on the numbers right from the beginning, since it was the easiest part of a rulebook to implement. So they were combat heavy, but still with a focus on the story. Heck, you could play through even EoB with only a handful of fights if you knew the dungeons and the mechanics, and that was maybe the most combat-focused rpg in its days :)

    Somewhere after the mid 90's we started to see a change, lame "rollplayer" kidz started to show up and did nothing just make a character, throwing bigger and bigger monsters onto the arena, the dice rolled constantly, usually in one session they've leveled themselves up fully (yep, the gm was the same idiot as them), and the next weekend they started it again from scratch. World, races, npc's, story? They've had no clue. But they knew the charts inside out. Well, those are to blame for making that crapfest diablo a success, and turned the genre into the "rpg == combat, loot, levelup" of today. And the very same reason you see more and more action combat, dumbed down games (in other genres as well, strategy is on the verge of extinction behind the rts craps, adventure genre is dead, fps is the hollow shell of the past, etc)

     

    ES is great, but even with it, Skyrim is weaker than Morrowind or Oblivion was (not to mention Daggerfall). Still, this weakened state pushed Skyrim to the most selling and successful part of the series. ME2 was weaker than ME, and for ME3... lol. Gothic, Dragon Age, Witcher, in every case the second (with Gothic's case the 3rd) was weaker and easier. The very same is the case with mmo's.

    But there's nothing we can do about it, the majority like the current state, and if that's what sells, that's what the companies will release to them.

     

    Edit: if you want to play awesome rpg's on pc, there's a dude on the main page talking 40minutes, he made a few... (hint: Ultima IV, V and VI :) )

  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by monochrome19

    So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

    killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

    Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

    As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

    and improving them, would help alot someone that have finaly understood what am saying, i played some mmos without quests and as fun as they were, i still like quests more

  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member

    yes Alot of peole didnt understand this, quests have stories you guys just dont read them : in all mmos i played everone goes like this :

    creating a ton

    bang

    skiping video

    bang

    runing to quest

    taking it

    do it

    handling it

    bang

    bang

    bang

    ohhhh Did i miss reading quest : yes i did because no one do anymore

  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member

    and to people who blame, the so called (kids,carebears,casual)players, SHAmE on you,because in you point of view the only way to fix games is that thoes players leaving games, i mean are you guys stuped?

    these so called (kids,carebears,casual) they are the maijorty and they role the market, so most games are made for them.

    aka = grow up and deal with it

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by monochrome19
    So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...Face it, quest are NECESSARY.As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

    Quests themselves are ok as a guide as to where to go but quest hub style quests are really awful. Anyway the game should allow the players to impact the world and shape it themselves. Not be a bunch of static mobs sitting around waiting for you to kill to complete a quest. The entire drive of the genre is completely wrong atm. The technology wasn't ready for this type of game when MMOs first came out but it is ready now. We just have to get away from the WoW clones.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rafalex007

    yes Alot of peole didnt understand this, quests have stories you guys just dont read them : in all mmos i played everone goes like this :

    creating a ton

    bang

    skiping video

    bang

    runing to quest

    taking it

    do it

    handling it

    bang

    bang

    bang

    ohhhh Did i miss reading quest : yes i did because no one do anymore

    Perhaps because many folks don't want to read a story, they want to "be" the story.

    The trick is to come up with alternatives to questing in order to "progress" your character.

    EVE uses time based skill training, so the only real progression is in obtaining wealth to achieve your objectives, be it to kill other players better, or rule the galaxy, or somewhere in between.

    There's other ways of course, but quest based progression is an idea that I've certainly grown tired of, and am now playing a DAOC shard and actually enjoying the old style camp grinding/mob killing model.  

    Weird I know, but I actually have more freedom of choice in this model. I get to try to figure out which mobs in which zone are the most efficient for me to kill (it matters what type of damage my weapons/spells do vs what the NPC's are strong/weak against), whether I'm soloing or grouping (changes the previous decision), which camps drop the best loot, (I've found one on the Alb side that few know about, but it's a money making machine for me) and how much travel time I wish to spend to get to each one.

    As opposed to just moving from quest hub to quest hub and completing my tasks.  Most new games don't even mix it up a bit like vanilla WOW used to do, you literally just go from one to the next almost in sequence, and I feel like I've almost no freedom to vary from the path.

     

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by rafalex007

    yes Alot of peole didnt understand this, quests have stories you guys just dont read them : in all mmos i played everone goes like this :

    creating a ton

    bang

    skiping video

    bang

    runing to quest

    taking it

    do it

    handling it

    bang

    bang

    bang

    ohhhh Did i miss reading quest : yes i did because no one do anymore

    Perhaps because many folks don't want to read a story, they want to "be" the story.

    The trick is to come up with alternatives to questing in order to "progress" your character.

    EVE uses time based skill training, so the only real progression is in obtaining wealth to achieve your objectives, be it to kill other players better, or rule the galaxy, or somewhere in between.

    There's other ways of course, but quest based progression is an idea that I've certainly grown tired of, and am now playing a DAOC shard and actually enjoying the old style camp grinding/mob killing model.   Weird.

     

     

     

    which is excatly my idea quests can be improved

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19

    So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

    killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

    Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

    As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

    UO, EVE, Puzzle Pirates and a few other MMOs didn't get that memo. Yes, some of those do have quests, but they are not necessary for gameplay, at all. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.
  • rafalex007rafalex007 dubaiPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

    cyber five image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,293Member Uncommon
    Did you just say that in an age where games advertize having 3000, 4000 ,10000 plus quests on release that all there is to do is end game?

    I musy be playing a completely different genre.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

    You don't speak for me.

    I want to consume professionally produced story content.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

    You don't speak for me.

    I want to consume professionally produced story content.

    LOL, yeah, and you enjoy reading as a hobby too.  image  (OK, so do I)

    But when I play MMORPG's, I like making the story and I wish more titles found better ways to accomplish this.

    Yeah, we're opposites.

    Quests can make a nice supplement to progression, but before WOW there was progression, in spite of WOW there's games that find a way to accomplish progression with out it.

    Making "better" quests sounds like a worthy goal, and I think titles such as SWTOR did a pretty good job with it, if you're into that sort of thing. 

    But quests can only be so good...and we might have hit the peak in that regard.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    I agree with "being" the story rather than consuming it. However, I think there are times when there may be no obvious direction to pursue. In those cases, I think some gentle guidance may be necessary; a "quest", if you will, that highlights some underlying feature of the game, or brings lore/legend to life.

    If there is an endgame in the virtual world I inhabit, I have yet to find it.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 832Member Uncommon

    How about if you do quest to NPC X , NPC Y will stop giving quest  to you ?

    Or if you finish a big evil quest , City A will ban you and kill in sign when they see you around ?

    How about if someone clean those quest before you then you can't finish that quest anymore and have to abandon it ?

    Then quest ask you to travel from A to B without teleport , limit in 2 days and it cost you same of time to get from A to B while travel by legs or mounts , you have to pass through a dark valley where monster have stealth ability or a dungeon where big minotaur wander around.

    And other character get quest to stop and make you quest fail to success they quest.

     

    A true RPG are big map of what you chose and abandon to raise your character.

    Current quests line like a boring book where you skip pages to see what happen in the end.

     

    Even though , making quests line are easier and lest cost than make a big map of what character may possible to become.

    Through time they cut off player's chose and force someone else story to player , Instead give player more chose to build up character.

     

    How many ending can you get in a MMORPG ?

    A honor knight or a evil theft ?,

    kingdom's ruler or a outlaw king ?

    being a knight mage or pure craftman ?

    Not them , there are only ending where you take down last boss and everyone walk in peace waiting for next big expansion patch.

     

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

    You don't speak for me.

    I want to consume professionally produced story content.

    LOL, yeah, and you enjoy reading as a hobby too.  image  (OK, so do I)

    But when I play MMORPG's, I like making the story and I wish more titles found better ways to accomplish this.

    Yeah, we're opposites.

    Quests can make a nice supplement to progression, but before WOW there was progression, in spite of WOW there's games that find a way to accomplish progression with out it.

    Making "better" quests sounds like a worthy goal, and I think titles such as SWTOR did a pretty good job with it, if you're into that sort of thing. 

    But quests can only be so good...and we might have hit the peak in that regard.

    Yes, i love reading. I am reading the Judgment of Paris now (i also enjoy wine as a hobby) and it is a great book.

    I don't think MMORPGs have hit the peak in terms of quests and story telling. Think bioshock or Dishonored type story telling. It is certainly doable in instances. STO has a bit of that, but not as polished as SP games.

    THAT would be the peak.

     

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by bcbully

    Originally posted by monochrome19
    so... what can be done to "improve" quest?
    Stop making them the main focus of progression, or get rid of them completely.
    I disagree. Quests are a main source of how I interact with the game world. (Others may feel the same way.) Without them, what do you do? Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"? Quests give meaning to my actions in the game world.

    That being said, quests could certainly be improved from their current "chores" state to something more interesting.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19
    of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

    I listed several MMOs for you. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"?

    What about fighting monsters because there are consequences to fighting vs not fighting.  The alternative to quests is not "the same game without quests", but a world where events are unfolding all around you and you are choosing how to alter the course of history.

    That said, if I was going to make my perfect sandbox world, I'd probably still keep the structure of "kill 10 rats", it's just that the quest would not be a static thing waiting for each passing character next to a basement full of rats, it would be a hint that spawns in the right conditions, telling players that there is an opportuntiy to affect the world in that place and time.  Instead of story arcs, you have long chains of events: you killed the giant rats, but where's the nest?  what natural or supernatural event triggered the infestation in the first place?  If the evils of the world actually unfold logically with footprints and clues to follow, then story arcs should emerge spontaneously out of tracing down the root causes of problems.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by rafalex007

    mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

    Depends on a couple of things: Who "we" is referring to, and what the understanding-that's-wrong is supposed to be.

    Could be that your understanding of what RPG is all about is different from Bill's understanding of it, sure.

    And you could both be right! With completely different answers!

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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