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Next Expansion to Make or Break WoW

cyan85cyan85 Blythe, CAPosts: 59Member

I'm sure this is being reiterated at Blizz headquarters as we speak, but the next expac for WoW (whatever that may be) will be the single most important expac yet.  WoW has been in decline since the early days of CATA, having reached its peak of 12 million subs during WotLK then falling to 7.7 million today.  While the current retention rate is greater than the sum of all other MMORPGs put together, losing over a third of your audience within two years is nothing to sneeze at.  Behind the scenes, I'm sure Blizzard is very concerned.

Although I haven't played the game in almost three years, I do believe WoW is at a crossroads of sorts.  If the next expac is a traditional one (with the typical new villain, new race, a few new zones, higher level cap, etc), then it is doomed to fail after the initial rush just like CATA and MOP did.  More of the same just isn't going to cut it anymore.  If they go this tired formula route, the best thing to do would be to wrap everything up so to speak (perhaps with a final confrontation with Sargeras) and set the distant stage for Warcrat 4 or WoW 2.  The game is simply getting old at this point, so bowing out gracefully with a strong exit strategy is in order.  Although this would probably be the smartest thing to do, it's doubtful Blizz or any other company would do this, because it's basically an admission that there's something wrong with your game and that it's in decline.

The only other option is for the next expac to be RADICALLY different from the previous ones, and bascially throw out 100% of the previous content and start from scratch.  Perhaps have it take place entirely in the Emerald Dream (which is basically Azeroth prior to it being settled) with an entirely new approach to progression, or perhaps revert most of the gameplay systems (particularly raiding) back to a more vanilla approach.  Judging from the player base, the number one reason why there has been such a decline is sub numbers is due to the LFR tool and the differences (or lack thereof) between normal and heroic raiding.  Removing these systems would result in a massive outcry, but it might be best for the game as a whole.  Blizzard is removing the RMAH from D3, so this type of reversion isn't out of the question.  The same thing goes for PvP.  Most veteran WoW players look fondly back at the days of world PvP (Tarren Mill vs Southshore anyone?), so it also might be prudent to remove arenas and BGs.  Again, all of this would be a hugely controversial and risky decision, but you can't claim rewards without taking risks.

Regardless of what direction Blizz decides to take, I see this next expansion being the make it or break it one.  Either Wow continues to decline, or it gets a second wind, going off in a new (or older, depending on your viewpoint) direction.  Since the Titan project was basically cancelled, Blizz is going to be stuck with WoW for a few more years than they thought they would be.

So what do you guys think needs to happen in the next expansion to not only stop the bleeding, but to bring in new and veteran players alike?

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Comments

  • GrayImpactGrayImpact NetherlandsPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    I'm really not to sure what would have to be done, i quit when i hit 85 in Cata, didn't even raid because it just felt the same.

    I do know that i wouldn't return if new content is just same old same old.

     

    The only way i see myself returning is either a Major overhaul of the game changing it significantly ( God knows what this overhaul would be ) Or turning the game to a Free 2 play model.

     

    While i dont generally like the Free 2 play model at all, I'm just not willing to pay for World of warcraft in It's current form anymore, but I'm pretty sure that once i get to play again, I'd be pretty easily convinced to invest in a cash shop, even if its just cosmetics.

     

    The return of vanilla PvP however.. Is a pretty entertaining idea, maybe It wasn't as polished but i enjoyed actual world PvP a lot more then battlegrounds.

     

    Edit: on a side note, i think WoW could keep the entirety of blizzard going for a long long time, maybe they'd shrink in size but i very much doubt the company would die even if they quit making games, Wow is a magnificent game, and there are plenty of much much crappier games out there surviving just fine.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member

    Well actually, WoW started seeing a decline mid-way through WotLK.  About the same time as LFD went in to trivialize the social experience .. and about the time the in-game item cash-shop went in ... coincidence, I'm sure.

     

    I don't think Blizzard can do much to fix the damage that LFD, LFR, and recently cross-realm zones have caused.  It's just not the same game it used to be, by a long shot.  Many other factors, like instant-gratification, epics for everyone, dailies galore, no large scale raiding, no importance of guilds other than being in a big one to get the perks, casual friendly, etc.

     

    I guess if it could be put into minimal words, the game just became more about the individual rather than the experiences with others, necessary to achieve greatness.

     

    Defend away, it's just not the same game to me, noticeable post BC.

     

    But anyways, it's not about the next xpac so much as the current state.  It will probably follow the same decline regardless of whatever story Blizzard comes up with.  The next xpac won't make or break WoW, and I'm sure it is in Blizzard's interest to support WoW at least until Titan.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • GrayImpactGrayImpact NetherlandsPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Well actually, WoW started seeing a decline mid-way through WotLK.  About the same time as LFD went in to trivialize the social experience .. and about the time the in-game item cash-shop went in ... coincidence, I'm sure.

     

    I don't think Blizzard can do much to fix the damage that LFD, LFR, and recently cross-realm zones have caused.  It's just not the same game it used to be, by a long shot.  Many other factors, like instant-gratification, epics for everyone, dailies galore, no large scale raiding, no importance of guilds other than being in a big one to get the perks, casual friendly, etc.

     

    I guess if it could be put into minimal words, the game just became more about the individual rather than the experiences with others, necessary to achieve greatness.

     

    Defend away, it's just not the same game to me, noticeable post BC.

    Pretty much entirely agree with all of this, the moment they started selling mini pets and mounts i just felt a little ripped off, even though it didn't affect me in anyway i felt that 15$ a month should entitle me to have access to all content, no matter if It's just fluff or more.

     

    I never minded LFD, i played on a roleplaying server and it never seemed to affect the community there, but LFR might have been a bit excessive, epics haven't felt epic to me since TBC, they where too easy to get and thus offered little gratification.

     

    Hated dailies, disliked the downsize in raiding, but the community was always there, at least for me.

     

    In the end though i think WoW thrived because of It's appeal to the casual player, and while i personally disliked that, it seemed to work at the time.. Right now I just think the game is dying out for both hardcore and casual alike, because simply no one enjoys repetition for this many years.

  • cyan85cyan85 Blythe, CAPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by Agoden

    The return of vanilla PvP however.. Is a pretty entertaining idea, maybe It wasn't as polished but i enjoyed actual world PvP a lot more then battlegrounds.

     

    Me too.  When I think back on playing WoW, I don't remember much about the dungeons or BGs, but I do remember the epic fights between players that would happen around the Crossroads and Tarren Mill.  I even remember the specific names of players from both Alliance and Horde that would turn up for those fights.  In the old days, the servers couldn't handle the stress of world PvP, so the BGs helped alleviate the strain.  However, the servers were upgraded a few years back, so world PvP is no longer a problem.  The only reason people play in the BGs and arenas is for blue and purple gear, yet I guarantee 90% of them don't enjoy it.  The healthiest PvP community within the game (at least when I was playing it) were the level 19 and 29 twinks, which brings me to my next point:

    One of the biggest problems with WoW is that the game wasn't designed around PvP.  The class system is based on raiding, and no amount of balancing and tinkering will ultimately change that.  In fact, I always thought Blizzard's attempts at catering to the PvP community was pointless and therefore a waste of resources.  By messing with class balance to make PvP fair, and rewarding people for sitting in BGs, Blizzard is basically taking away the incentive for the players to find out what works and what doesn't work in PvP on their own.  That process is infinitely more fun than having the company find out for you.  For example, if a certain class becomes overpowered for a particular patch (either through gear or balancing), it creates an arms race for other PvPers to discover ways of countering it, and so on.  If I were Blizzard, these are some of the changes I would make in regard to PvP for the next expansion:

    • BGs and arenas only have cosmetic rewards.  For example, if you're a top PvPer, you get warlord or champion skins that bind to equipment of your choice, making you look scary and intimidating, but doesn't effect the performance of your gear in any way.  Lots of other rewards, such as pets and mounts.
    • Classes and items are balanced around raiding and PvE, freeing up tons of resources to focus specifically on that content.  The PvP community has to find out on their own what sort of gear, specs, and classes work best for PvP.
    • Quest related NPCs aren't targettable, but town and city guards are.  Within towns and cities, there should be bosses and other NPCs specifically there for PvP that drop high level gear in order to promote world PvP (this may be the case already, since I haven't played in several years).
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by cyan85

    So what do you guys think needs to happen in the next expansion to not only stop the bleeding, but to bring in new and veteran players alike?

    Expansions always bring in new and veteran players (the bubble actually occurs before release date).

    What they don't do is reverse or alter existing population trends significantly in the long term.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IntheShadowsIntheShadows North YorkshirePosts: 58Member
    Originally posted by Agoden

    I'm really not to sure what would have to be done, i quit when i hit 85 in Cata, didn't even raid because it just felt the same.

    I do know that i wouldn't return if new content is just same old same old.

     

    The only way i see myself returning is either a Major overhaul of the game changing it significantly ( God knows what this overhaul would be ) Or turning the game to a Free 2 play model.

     

    While i dont generally like the Free 2 play model at all, I'm just not willing to pay for World of warcraft in It's current form anymore, but I'm pretty sure that once i get to play again, I'd be pretty easily convinced to invest in a cash shop, even if its just cosmetics.

     

    The return of vanilla PvP however.. Is a pretty entertaining idea, maybe It wasn't as polished but i enjoyed actual world PvP a lot more then battlegrounds.

     

    Edit: on a side note, i think WoW could keep the entirety of blizzard going for a long long time, maybe they'd shrink in size but i very much doubt the company would die even if they quit making games, Wow is a magnificent game, and there are plenty of much much crappier games out there surviving just fine.

    You echo my thoughts almost exactly!

    I'd also like to add.... I can't think of any good explanation for why Blizzard doesn't see the potential gold mine they are sitting on if they would release servers for each expansion. Look at how popular private servers are (bugs and all). I'm sure there are TONS of people (myself included) that would happily sub if they did this. They could even charge for people to switch to the next expansion when/if they're ready, and people would pay it. 

    At this point, they would have to go in a completely different direction or go f2p for the next expansion for me to even consider going back. It's unfortunate, because I do miss what it was. Oh and adding player housing would also be a huge incentive for me as well.

  • emotaemota PLYMOUTHPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    world pvp, introduce the best faction pop Horde vs Alliance back into the game. Massive win!
  • AroukosAroukos AthensPosts: 571Member
    WoW lost the EPIC feeling. Nothing anymore makes you feel this way. This is my main problem with almost any mmo in the market today.
  • Athena_StarfireAthena_Starfire AucklandPosts: 195Member Uncommon

    I gave up with 'Kung Fu Panda"

    Whats next Pokemon?

     

  • GrayImpactGrayImpact NetherlandsPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Athena_Starfire

    I gave up with 'Kung Fu Panda"

    Whats next Pokemon?

     

    They already did Pokemon ;) You can literally have pokemon battles with mini pets.

  • alterfenixalterfenix Bielsko-BialaPosts: 343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cyan85

    I'm sure this is being reiterated at Blizz headquarters as we speak, but the next expac for WoW (whatever that may be) will be the single most important expac yet.  WoW has been in decline since the early days of CATA, having reached its peak of 12 million subs during WotLK then falling to 7.7 million today.  While the current retention rate is greater than the sum of all other MMORPGs put together, losing over a third of your audience within two years is nothing to sneeze at.  Behind the scenes, I'm sure Blizzard is very concerned.

    Although I haven't played the game in almost three years, I do believe WoW is at a crossroads of sorts.  If the next expac is a traditional one (with the typical new villain, new race, a few new zones, higher level cap, etc), then it is doomed to fail after the initial rush just like CATA and MOP did.  More of the same just isn't going to cut it anymore.  If they go this tired formula route, the best thing to do would be to wrap everything up so to speak (perhaps with a final confrontation with Sargeras) and set the distant stage for Warcrat 4 or WoW 2.  The game is simply getting old at this point, so bowing out gracefully with a strong exit strategy is in order.  Although this would probably be the smartest thing to do, it's doubtful Blizz or any other company would do this, because it's basically an admission that there's something wrong with your game and that it's in decline.

    The only other option is for the next expac to be RADICALLY different from the previous ones, and bascially throw out 100% of the previous content and start from scratch.  Perhaps have it take place entirely in the Emerald Dream (which is basically Azeroth prior to it being settled) with an entirely new approach to progression, or perhaps revert most of the gameplay systems (particularly raiding) back to a more vanilla approach.  Judging from the player base, the number one reason why there has been such a decline is sub numbers is due to the LFR tool and the differences (or lack thereof) between normal and heroic raiding.  Removing these systems would result in a massive outcry, but it might be best for the game as a whole.  Blizzard is removing the RMAH from D3, so this type of reversion isn't out of the question.  The same thing goes for PvP.  Most veteran WoW players look fondly back at the days of world PvP (Tarren Mill vs Southshore anyone?), so it also might be prudent to remove arenas and BGs.  Again, all of this would be a hugely controversial and risky decision, but you can't claim rewards without taking risks.

    Regardless of what direction Blizz decides to take, I see this next expansion being the make it or break it one.  Either Wow continues to decline, or it gets a second wind, going off in a new (or older, depending on your viewpoint) direction.  Since the Titan project was basically cancelled, Blizz is going to be stuck with WoW for a few more years than they thought they would be.

    So what do you guys think needs to happen in the next expansion to not only stop the bleeding, but to bring in new and veteran players alike?

    Removing battlegrounds or arenas is unlikely going to happen. Too much effort put through years in this on Blizzard's part. However there are still battlemasters in capitals and those guys most likely would love to get their jobs back.

    If LFR gets removed then they should also remove LFD really. I'd rather see it to be tweaked. Like perhaps normal raids should be LFR with all it's difficulty while heroic should be simply much tougher so there is more difference. Or perhaps LFR should be simply 40 man version of raid? There are several ideas that should be considered.

    And what you say about starting from scratch it sound really alot like Titan's role rather.

    Although regarding role that next expansion will play you are correct. But then still the outcome may be either slow down fall or make it faster. WoW won't be gaining numbers again.

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Well actually, WoW started seeing a decline mid-way through WotLK.  About the same time as LFD went in to trivialize the social experience .. and about the time the in-game item cash-shop went in ... coincidence, I'm sure.

     

    Holy fabrications batman.....its perfectly clear you cant stand the LFG tool, but don't start making things up and distorting what really happened...the decline didn't start until well into Cata......and what the heck in game item cash shop are you talking about? WoW does not have an in game item cash shop in the west....and even at that, it only went live in Asia a month ago....

    Talk about distorting...

    Now, as for LFG tools.....many MMO players don;t even TOUCH an MMO now a days if the game doesnt have an LFG tool......one would argue that the LFG tool implemented in SWTOR after lots of player feedback saved the game from utter collaps....there is a reason why all AAA MMOs are either launching with them or implementing them soon after launch now....heck...even GW2 is adding one....

    WoW sure is in a decline...but its 100% not because of the LFG tool implemented in wotlk lol

  • Imperator91Imperator91 Columbus, OHPosts: 5Member

    First, I love someone who doesn't actually play the game, posting about drastic changes that would be 'best for the game'. It's silly. I know we all want a game to adapt to what we consider perfect, but that's unrealistic. WoW is what it is. It will not change drastically until it dies. 

    Why? Because it's stupid, it's still by far the most active, most popular MMO ever. Noone will take any risks with a cash cow like that. Second, they lost any ability to do anything stupid when they sold out to Activision. If Blizzard even thought out loud about doing what you're suggesting, Activision would Infinity Ward them so fast, your heads would spin.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by doodphace 

    Holy fabrications batman.....its perfectly clear you cant stand the LFG tool, but don't start making things up and distorting what really happened...the decline didn't start until well into Cata......and what the heck in game item cash shop are you talking about? WoW does not have an in game item cash shop in the west....and even at that, it only went live in Asia a month ago....

    Talk about distorting...

    Now, as for LFG tools.....many MMO players don;t even TOUCH an MMO now a days if the game doesnt have an LFG tool......one would argue that the LFG tool implemented in SWTOR after lots of player feedback saved the game from utter collaps....there is a reason why all AAA MMOs are either launching with them or implementing them soon after launch now....heck...even GW2 is adding one....

    WoW sure is in a decline...but its 100% not because of the LFG tool implemented in wotlk lol

    It was actually happening at the start of wotlk, though mostly began midway through. I honestly feel ToC was the biggest punch to the gut, though its just one piece in a series of missteps. While the one you responding to is creating some BS in his wake, its silly to think cataclysm really is where things slipped down. Heck, if you ignore the 'population boost' that an exapansion gives, you could claim that it was near the end of TBC where people began to slide away from the game.

    LFG I DO feel is negatively effecting many games (mostly in trivializing the content and making it a 'run this daily/weakly or lose out' type deal, with it made easy in order to allow people to pug it not expecting good players) but as you said, its not the 100% factor in this. Its a bunch of things negatively impacting the game, mostly in blizzards poor decisions, combined with a vastly growing MMo market where people find more games to play.

    Even if they did an expansion, removing their poor decisions or at least making them to a state where they aren't bad design choices, I still feel at most it might earn a larger spike of players, one that would decline quickly afterwards anyways as players simply move on to something more modern.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by cyan85
    Originally posted by Agoden

    The return of vanilla PvP however.. Is a pretty entertaining idea, maybe It wasn't as polished but i enjoyed actual world PvP a lot more then battlegrounds.

     

    Me too.  When I think back on playing WoW, I don't remember much about the dungeons or BGs, but I do remember the epic fights between players that would happen around the Crossroads and Tarren Mill.  I even remember the specific names of players from both Alliance and Horde that would turn up for those fights.  In the old days, the servers couldn't handle the stress of world PvP, so the BGs helped alleviate the strain.  However, the servers were upgraded a few years back, so world PvP is no longer a problem.  The only reason people play in the BGs and arenas is for blue and purple gear, yet I guarantee 90% of them don't enjoy it.  The healthiest PvP community within the game (at least when I was playing it) were the level 19 and 29 twinks, which brings me to my next point:

    One of the biggest problems with WoW is that the game wasn't designed around PvP.  The class system is based on raiding, and no amount of balancing and tinkering will ultimately change that.  In fact, I always thought Blizzard's attempts at catering to the PvP community was pointless and therefore a waste of resources.  By messing with class balance to make PvP fair, and rewarding people for sitting in BGs, Blizzard is basically taking away the incentive for the players to find out what works and what doesn't work in PvP on their own.  That process is infinitely more fun than having the company find out for you.  For example, if a certain class becomes overpowered for a particular patch (either through gear or balancing), it creates an arms race for other PvPers to discover ways of countering it, and so on.  If I were Blizzard, these are some of the changes I would make in regard to PvP for the next expansion:

    • BGs and arenas only have cosmetic rewards.  For example, if you're a top PvPer, you get warlord or champion skins that bind to equipment of your choice, making you look scary and intimidating, but doesn't effect the performance of your gear in any way.  Lots of other rewards, such as pets and mounts.
    • Classes and items are balanced around raiding and PvE, freeing up tons of resources to focus specifically on that content.  The PvP community has to find out on their own what sort of gear, specs, and classes work best for PvP.
    • Quest related NPCs aren't targettable, but town and city guards are.  Within towns and cities, there should be bosses and other NPCs specifically there for PvP that drop high level gear in order to promote world PvP (this may be the case already, since I haven't played in several years).

    Damn shame you aren't running the show on WoW entertainment possibilities :(

    image
  • IridescentOrkIridescentOrk Ellicott City, MDPosts: 157Member
    The game is dying slowly. I think the next x-pack will be something like Outland (second x-pack) but in the Emerald Dream, like a dimension. Even Thrall surrendered his leadership status with the Horde and gave it to a troll. Probably he is joining forces with the druids, it's al about the druids bro. In a nutshell, the game will be the same, the world/land/ whatever is corrupted, you are the hero so you cleanse it. Rinse and repeat.

    gameplay > graphics

  • cyan85cyan85 Blythe, CAPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by Imperator91

    First, I love someone who doesn't actually play the game, posting about drastic changes that would be 'best for the game'. It's silly. I know we all want a game to adapt to what we consider perfect, but that's unrealistic. WoW is what it is. It will not change drastically until it dies. 

    Why? Because it's stupid, it's still by far the most active, most popular MMO ever. Noone will take any risks with a cash cow like that. Second, they lost any ability to do anything stupid when they sold out to Activision. If Blizzard even thought out loud about doing what you're suggesting, Activision would Infinity Ward them so fast, your heads would spin.

    You got me wrong.  I'm not dissing WoW in anyway, in fact, I consider it perhaps the best MMO out there (definitely the most polished and refined of its type).  However, even the powers that be admit that it's in decline.  I'm just throwing out ideas for the next expansion that might help.  If the game continues to slide, it doesn't matter what Activision thinks, they're going to have to do SOMETHING.  I don't see Blizz simply standing by and watching it happen for very long.

  • funconfuncon Key West, FLPosts: 258Member
    Originally posted by cyan85

    I'm sure this is being reiterated at Blizz headquarters as we speak, but the next expac for WoW (whatever that may be) will be the single most important expac yet.  WoW has been in decline since the early days of CATA, having reached its peak of 12 million subs during WotLK then falling to 7.7 million today.  While the current retention rate is greater than the sum of all other MMORPGs put together, losing over a third of your audience within two years is nothing to sneeze at.  Behind the scenes, I'm sure Blizzard is very concerned.

    Although I haven't played the game in almost three years, I do believe WoW is at a crossroads of sorts.  If the next expac is a traditional one (with the typical new villain, new race, a few new zones, higher level cap, etc), then it is doomed to fail after the initial rush just like CATA and MOP did.  More of the same just isn't going to cut it anymore.  If they go this tired formula route, the best thing to do would be to wrap everything up so to speak (perhaps with a final confrontation with Sargeras) and set the distant stage for Warcrat 4 or WoW 2.  The game is simply getting old at this point, so bowing out gracefully with a strong exit strategy is in order.  Although this would probably be the smartest thing to do, it's doubtful Blizz or any other company would do this, because it's basically an admission that there's something wrong with your game and that it's in decline.

    The only other option is for the next expac to be RADICALLY different from the previous ones, and bascially throw out 100% of the previous content and start from scratch.  Perhaps have it take place entirely in the Emerald Dream (which is basically Azeroth prior to it being settled) with an entirely new approach to progression, or perhaps revert most of the gameplay systems (particularly raiding) back to a more vanilla approach.  Judging from the player base, the number one reason why there has been such a decline is sub numbers is due to the LFR tool and the differences (or lack thereof) between normal and heroic raiding.  Removing these systems would result in a massive outcry, but it might be best for the game as a whole.  Blizzard is removing the RMAH from D3, so this type of reversion isn't out of the question.  The same thing goes for PvP.  Most veteran WoW players look fondly back at the days of world PvP (Tarren Mill vs Southshore anyone?), so it also might be prudent to remove arenas and BGs.  Again, all of this would be a hugely controversial and risky decision, but you can't claim rewards without taking risks.

    Regardless of what direction Blizz decides to take, I see this next expansion being the make it or break it one.  Either Wow continues to decline, or it gets a second wind, going off in a new (or older, depending on your viewpoint) direction.  Since the Titan project was basically cancelled, Blizz is going to be stuck with WoW for a few more years than they thought they would be.

    So what do you guys think needs to happen in the next expansion to not only stop the bleeding, but to bring in new and veteran players alike?

    good points. I would leave the bg's but take away xp from it. Making low lvl players have to go out in the world and quest to lvl up. And bring the old ranking system to get pvp gear.  Also make dungeons harder and less xp than what it gives now. WPvP will then happen again with the server merging tech that they are about to implement,

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,815Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    Originally posted by doodphace 

    Holy fabrications batman.....its perfectly clear you cant stand the LFG tool, but don't start making things up and distorting what really happened...the decline didn't start until well into Cata......and what the heck in game item cash shop are you talking about? WoW does not have an in game item cash shop in the west....and even at that, it only went live in Asia a month ago....

    Talk about distorting...

    Now, as for LFG tools.....many MMO players don;t even TOUCH an MMO now a days if the game doesnt have an LFG tool......one would argue that the LFG tool implemented in SWTOR after lots of player feedback saved the game from utter collaps....there is a reason why all AAA MMOs are either launching with them or implementing them soon after launch now....heck...even GW2 is adding one....

    WoW sure is in a decline...but its 100% not because of the LFG tool implemented in wotlk lol

    It was actually happening at the start of wotlk, though mostly began midway through. I honestly feel ToC was the biggest punch to the gut, though its just one piece in a series of missteps. While the one you responding to is creating some BS in his wake, its silly to think cataclysm really is where things slipped down. Heck, if you ignore the 'population boost' that an exapansion gives, you could claim that it was near the end of TBC where people began to slide away from the game.

    LFG I DO feel is negatively effecting many games (mostly in trivializing the content and making it a 'run this daily/weakly or lose out' type deal, with it made easy in order to allow people to pug it not expecting good players) but as you said, its not the 100% factor in this. Its a bunch of things negatively impacting the game, mostly in blizzards poor decisions, combined with a vastly growing MMo market where people find more games to play.

    Even if they did an expansion, removing their poor decisions or at least making them to a state where they aren't bad design choices, I still feel at most it might earn a larger spike of players, one that would decline quickly afterwards anyways as players simply move on to something more modern.

    If you are talking about fundamental changes to the game as "declining", I wont argue with your opinion on when that started to happen...but if we are talking pure subscription numbers, which I believe the person I quoted was, the decline did not start until well into Cata. This is not my opinion on the matter, this is documented fact.

  • Imperator91Imperator91 Columbus, OHPosts: 5Member
    1. Perhaps my previous statement was a little harsh, it's just something I tend to see a lot of. And yes, chagnes are necessary if they want to hit that 12 million mark again, but there's so much capital involved the changes will happen slowly and conservatively. You just can't take chances with a flagship like this. 
    2. Also, I get the feeling that Blizzard is sick and tired of being chained to WoW. So I don't know how much they care at this point. I think the fact that their next big project is going to be a completely original story says a lot.
  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    It's an older game. I don't see it getting back to where it was even if they made a lot of the changes people seem to yearn for. I also wonder really for all the people that say "I'd come back if they did this" would really go back. Hopefully they come out with an expac the people still playing will enjoy.
  • SilenttankSilenttank Albert Lea, MNPosts: 18Member
    It might not be the game itself that's losing people it's most likely outside sources. You gotta consider the competition that comes and tries to be the new "WoW killer", people's interest in MMO's dwindling, LoL being the most popular PC game making people flock to that, and etc. Granted Blizz has done a lot to really revamp the game. I can look back 6 months at a time and there's always something new that's implemented into the game. WoW is still the most played MMO currently and will probably remain so. If I were Blizz I wouldn't be too worried, you don't have to change something that isn't broken.
  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 587Member Uncommon

    Here's my ideas INSTEAD of radical change:

     

    Make legacy servers for Vanilla and every expansion there-after.  A lot of players have quit and long for those days again.  Many of them never even "beat" the final raids of the expansion (at least for Vanilla, TBC, and to a lesser extent Wrath).

     

    This would bring back the players that have left "for good", like myself.  I'd like to work on Black Temple and Sunwell on a Blizzard supported server.  I'd like a level 60 priest with priest racials for RP-PVP.  I know there are others out there like me.  These are the player that are done with the game.

     

    That would be a super, SUPER simple way to bring LOTS of players back.

     

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    Not sure what they can do to bring back people.  People are unsubbing at the speed of light as it is because they are tired of the same old same old.
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  • HulluckHulluck lost in bfe, TNPosts: 605Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thupli

    Here's my ideas INSTEAD of radical change:

     

    Make legacy servers for Vanilla and every expansion there-after.  A lot of players have quit and long for those days again.  Many of them never even "beat" the final raids of the expansion (at least for Vanilla, TBC, and to a lesser extent Wrath).

     

    This would bring back the players that have left "for good", like myself.  I'd like to work on Black Temple and Sunwell on a Blizzard supported server.  I'd like a level 60 priest with priest racials for RP-PVP.  I know there are others out there like me.  These are the player that are done with the game.

     

    That would be a super, SUPER simple way to bring LOTS of players back.

     

    Think a lot of  people are forgetting the downside to the vanilla raids.  They killed guilds. That's why Blizzard changed them.  It really was that simple. Most people only saw the first boss in  BWL.  He was a massive hurdle. That instance chewed guilds up and spit them out like it was nothing.  I saw so many guilds on our server just cave on the first boss. A guild needed to have people running them who were good leaders, had the time to organize the guild, and then keep it running smoothly. It took a lot of support support from a good portion of the guild members. Keeping the guild fed with raid materials, Pots / elixers / resistance gear, was basically a second job. I personally enjoyed it. But a lot of people didn't. 

    For that matter there weren't that many that were able to clear AQ 20 on our server, for whatever reason. The Blizzard forums were a constant reminder of how few actually saw any content past MC or the first boss in BWL.

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