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Why so few abilities on the action bar?

VintzQcVintzQc montreal, QCPosts: 10Member Common

Hi,

This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

 

Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

 

Thx for your thoughts about that

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Comments

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member

    Action combat replaces many of those previously required buttons with movement abilities (i.e., dodge).

    Due to the nature of movement required, 2+ action bars is too cumbersome. 

    Some would argue that fewer available skills at one time is MORE challenging since you must plan ahead. You must be strategic in what skills you take with you rather than always have the entire book handy at all times.

    In summary, it's not an issue.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    Hi,

    This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

     

    Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

     

    Thx for your thoughts about that

    Well, their intention is to have you to pay more attention to the action and less on multiple bars of hotkeys.  Now, while there are 8 ability slots, there are going to be 40 classes worth of abilities to mix and match to put in the utility slots. So, say you bump across an encounter that your current setup doesn't quite mesh with, re-slot some skills and try again.

     

    They haven't given the PvP details yet.  If it's like EQ and EQ2, there will be separate servers for open world PvP.

     

    Much of the game, it seems, is still very much on paper.  That's good and bad.  As far as you asking if things can change..well, maybe.  They have made changes already, and seem sincere about open communication.  You can voice your opinions here, on Reddit, Twitter, as well as the Roundtable.

     

    image
  • MastaccolliMastaccolli boston, MAPosts: 101Member

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

  • DixonHillDixonHill SchleswigPosts: 154Member

    I´d like to see more games adapt the model from DCUO, where players also have only a handful of abilities on their bars, but many more mouse button combos at their disposal. 

    Dont know,...just like that system, gives me this feeling of control. 

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    The main reason given given by the devs and I happen to agree is so that you are focusing on the action and getting immersed in the game.  Not spending time watching cool-down timers and spamming 45 abilities.
  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    Oh is EQNext a PC Shooter?

    As a single-purpose combat gamepiece the character can be fully functional with only one button, why use 8? 

    The ability to shuffle 500 different capabilities through 3 slots gives you endless opportunities to hit three buttons. The hot bar in EQNext is designed to be slick and cool, and doing anything besides flipping and whirling around is uncool. You need to be watching that awesome flipping and whirlwind action!

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Well I for one am sick and tired of just constant hotbar spamming. I hope EQ NExt focuses more on strategy versus just a simple rotation of 8. Also you need to take into account you can have abilities from other jobs/classes on one character. think of what problems that would cause if allowed to have a lot of abilities in use at one time.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    Oh is EQNext a PC Shooter?

    As a single-purpose combat gamepiece the character can be fully functional with only one button, why use 8? 

    The ability to shuffle 500 different capabilities through 3 slots gives you endless opportunities to hit three buttons. The hot bar in EQNext is designed to be slick and cool, and doing anything besides flipping and whirling around is uncool. You need to be watching that awesome flipping and whirlwind action!

     

    My point was here .

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    And you hit here .

  • Sho0terMcgavinSho0terMcgavin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    I couldn't agree with you more.  Imagine if FF14 came out with Tera combat, or at the very least GW2 combat.  

    image
  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon

    The whole Dev line of -

    "We dont want to clutter the UI and want people to concentrate on the action"

    Its just a BS line so you dont feel cheated by lack of situational choices that they had to take away so it can be played on a console with a controller.

     

    Its simplified game play to the point that after a time its repetitive and well...simple.

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • PeenenvyPeenenvy el paso, TXPosts: 13Member

    I agree with the poster in this thread. 8 will kill it for me thanks for the heads up.

     

    GW2 had that boring fail option too and I could not get into it either.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    Oh is EQNext a PC Shooter?

    As a single-purpose combat gamepiece the character can be fully functional with only one button, why use 8? 

    The ability to shuffle 500 different capabilities through 3 slots gives you endless opportunities to hit three buttons. The hot bar in EQNext is designed to be slick and cool, and doing anything besides flipping and whirling around is uncool. You need to be watching that awesome flipping and whirlwind action!

     

    My point was here .

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    And you hit here .

    Your point was that you don't like tab target combat because it is boring, and I happen to agree with you there.  The rest of what you wrote was like the space in between the two phrases above. 8 buttons doesn't make an interesting combat system either. And if you think console and MOBA twitchies weren't the target of this design move, you are kidding yourself.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,922Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hokie

    The whole Dev line of -

    "We dont want to clutter the UI and want people to concentrate on the action"

    Its just a BS line so you dont feel cheated by lack of situational choices that they had to take away so it can be played on a console with a controller.

     

    Its simplified game play to the point that after a time its repetitive and well...simple.

    Or.....it's what they really said it is. FF XIV: ARR has good controller support in a game that needs multiple hotbars (or so I am told by my PS3 friends).

    What's more challenging overall; having 3-4 hotbars set up with multiple abilities so you can cover 90% of any situation you come across, or having only a small selection of specific choices that prevent you from generalizing your character and forces you to make deliberate choices in how to build a character?

    I play and like both systems (currently playing FF:XIV ARR and GW2), but GW2 feels a bit more strategic in the combat side where I have only so many slots and need to make sacrifices (stability vs. stunbreakers vs. control for instance). When you can't really cover most situations by yourself you either need to improvise (which can create challenge) or you need to work in a team so you can rely on each other to cover most situations (which can also create challenge). Whereas in heavy hotbar style mmos challenge seems to come more from gear checks or gimmicky mechanics in fights.

    I can see why many people feel turned off by the lack of abilities, and I would have liked the system to be a bit more fleshed out (at least a full 12 slots might be nice), but I'm also not one to completely write off the whole thing either.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ignore_me

    Your point was that you don't like tab target combat because it is boring, and I happen to agree with you there.  The rest of what you wrote was like the space in between the two phrases above. 8 buttons doesn't make an interesting combat system either. And if you think console and MOBA twitchies weren't the target of this design move, you are kidding yourself.

    Obviously the target audience of a twitch style combat is the twitchies. Obviously Sony would like their new MMO to be playable on the PS4, too.

    Still it doesn't mean it cannot have a deep and interesting combat system with "only" 8 buttons. Actually when you bring in the MOBAs, they have often less than 8 active abilities at the time and I dare anyone to say they have a less deep combat system than for example WoW has with it's 30+ active abilities.

    That was my point, and only that.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    What's more challenging overall; having 3-4 hotbars set up with multiple abilities so you can cover 90% of any situation you come across

    Only if the developers see the need to introduce dumb RPS mechanics to their MMO.

     

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    Im ok with the 8 buttons if...

     

    1) you can swap out your weapons in combat to access 4 new combat abilities.

    2) you can swap out your utility bar set for a secondary utility set

     

    I believe GW2 made the mistake of not allowing the swap on the secondary abilities. Seemed very confined to me.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    You defeat yourself again, as there are no PC only shooters anymore. All shooters are mutliplatform.

    And as they sell the most copies on XBOX360 and PS3... completely dwarfing PC sales these days....shooters are being developed as console game, then ported to PC.

  • Stone_FountainStone_Fountain Berkley, MIPosts: 225Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hokie

    The whole Dev line of -

    "We dont want to clutter the UI and want people to concentrate on the action"

    Its just a BS line so you dont feel cheated by lack of situational choices that they had to take away so it can be played on a console with a controller.

     

    Its simplified game play to the point that after a time its repetitive and well...simple.

    I agree with this.

    First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    GW1 had only 8 abilities and probably has one of the deepest combat systems out of any MMO style game.

    In a system which limits your choice, it makes your build more strategic.

    Also if they design the game well, those skills will be reactive and situational, changing based on how you use them.  For instance the skill changes at range, based on position relative to the target, how long you charge the skill for etc etc. There are lots of ways to have combat variety without cluttering your screen with skills. 

     

    Here is how most MMOs with lots of skills work:

    1) Put any non-situational skills into a macro based on DPS / healing / threat priority.

    2) Spam that button.

    3) Occasionally use situational skills like CC, CC breakers or emergency skills.

     

    Having lots of skills does not make combat deep. You could say 'oh but you don't have to macro' ... and you would be correct. But then you would just be memorising the order anyway and playing whack-a-mole as skills come off cooldown, which is equally dull. Pretty much every hotbar game since EQ2 / WoW has been played this way.

     

    EQN is trying to design a game where you dont need to watch your hotbar. If they can make the skills feel natural, situational and reactive then they will be onto a winner.

  • kompleksakikompleksaki ThessalonikiPosts: 81Member
    Game launches as f2p. Number of abilities shouldn't be your main concern imo.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by rungard

    I believe GW2 made the mistake of not allowing the swap on the secondary abilities. Seemed very confined to me.

     

    I think thats a fair point. For the system they had, and how weapons work, it really would have benefited from swapping utility skills as you swap your weapon.

    I think my qualm with GW2 is that it was far too sterilised.  It was obviously designed with balance in mind, but they made it too restrictive.  I much preferred GW1s system.  Much more interesting character building.

    It looks like EQN will be closer to GW1 than GW2 in terms of character building.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

    Yes because for example all PC shooters have 30 abilities on the hotkeybar, right?

    In my opinion, action-based combat in MMOs is 100x more fun than the traditional hotkey tabtarget spam. I loved it in TERA (although the rest of the game was lackluster) and I'm loving it in GW2.

    Tried FFXIV and was bored out of my mind. Also not going back to WoW because of the same reason.

    Many buttons does not make a deep and interesting combat system.

     

    You defeat yourself again, as there are no PC only shooters anymore. All shooters are mutliplatform.

    And as they sell the most copies on XBOX360 and PS3... completely dwarfing PC sales these days....shooters are being developed as console game, then ported to PC.

     

    PC only shooters released in the last 12 months (or so):

     

    Chivalry (granted it's not really a shooter, but it's combat is still deeper than most MMOs)

    ARMA III

    Red Orchestra 2 (and Rising Storm)

    Warface

    Metro 2033 (and Last Light)

    Planetside 2

    Shootmania Storm

    Rise of the Triad

     

    You were saying?

     

  • TheRealFantomexTheRealFantomex Nashville, TNPosts: 36Member
    I thought that EverQuest worked fine with 8 spell slots and was challenging in terms of knowing what you would need before hand. There are more components to combat than just how many slots are available on your hotbar.

    EverQuest Nexus - http://www.eqnexus.com
    Head of Social Media and part time writer/interviewer.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    Hi,

    This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

     

    Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

     

    Thx for your thoughts about that

     You get more than 8 skill/spell but can only use 8 at a time, if you think this makes combat too simple your mistaken, makes combat more tachtical Take EQ1 for example with caster you could only have 8 spell on the bar at a time, you needed 2 pick the spell best suited for the situation and switch themn out as things change. For example as a wizard you had a spell called evac which will teleport your whole group to a safe location (usualy start of zone) now this wasnt on you bar most of the time since limite slot it wasnt that useful unless thing go sour. So you would need to find out when u needed 2 use that spell asap and switch it out which took a few seconds to do then cast it.

    With limited skill you need to use the right spell at the right time since u dont get a back up or switch out as needed it made the game more complex dispite having less skills.

    Now lets face it most game with lots of skill your only realy cycling like 5 skills repeatativly + long cooldown skill you only use on boss fights and the rest being situation or buff that sit on the bar all the time.

    As for me im looking forward to the whole 8 skills again i rather play the game than play the UI like everyone is use to :) Found combat more challenging/deep back in the days pre WoW where most game have limited spell they had axcess to at any given time but could switch em if need be :)

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