what i dont get is why cant we have custom skins for charactor models im sure they could do it then everyone is happy i can shut off the shitty cartoon stylization and you can have your cartoon stuff if you want
Originally posted by quseio what i dont get is why cant we have custom skins for charactor models im sure they could do it then everyone is happy i can shut off the shitty cartoon stylization and you can have your cartoon stuff if you want
The textures and models are designed with each other in mind. Putting a set of less stylized textures on the models would not result in something that looks less stylized, it would result in something that looks like the art assets don't match the models.
Besides, the number of people this would actually affect is going to be trivial, compared to the cost of doubling the texture work.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Another response, concerning the polls themselves, is that the results could be interpreted as the people responding are averse to change.
ESO's art style is more like the games that it follows in the ES series. EQN's art style is a departure from EQ and EQ2's art style. It's a change and there are people who just don't like change.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by quseio what i dont get is why cant we have custom skins for charactor models im sure they could do it then everyone is happy i can shut off the shitty cartoon stylization and you can have your cartoon stuff if you want
Despite this being more work and potentially leading to clashing art, this also alienates players who make up their character to look a certain way so other people see them that way. Having different models ruins this as you might like how you look in one art style, but in the other it looks terrible.
I like how the OP pretends to be all scientific, but doesn't even observe the simplest of testing protocols, namely keeping your test the same across subjects. He should have asked the same questions in both surveys, and also used neutral language.
Instead he asked different questions, and in each used words that have value judgments associated with them. A clear agenda.
But let's use the OP's approach to the data:
88.9% like ESO art style as is, or want it grittier.
87% like EQNext art style as is, or want it grittier.
You're mixing way too much opinion into this argument, and writing off a large aspect of stylized graphics, as you're predefining the entirety of EQ:N's art style, somewhat inaccurately at that, and just rolling with it.
You're misconstruing what an art style, even that of EQ:N, can do to accentuate any given element, and pretending it's always at odds instead. If you're not going to talk without bias, then all you can spout is opinion and not a valid argument about the art style.
All you did is repeat yourself, and I'm not about to repeat myself to continue an argument into pointlessness. Done that too many times with axehilt and others.
EDIT: Bit of a copout for me to say that, but it very much is the case. You make multiple misnomers like implying the style is specifically 'cute'. You also leap onto the notion of art dissonance immediately, and I find that highly inaccurate as well. For example, go back and watch any classic animated movies, including Disney. Over time the titles have become dumbed down and more friendly, but the style used did not dictate how serious or harsh a story the crew could produce and to the people who saw them there wasn't such a concept of dissonance.
What's happening is a blending of issues and arguments to complicate one. The art styles you claim aren't capable of such things without dissonance I disagree with because I can look at any classic cartoon I grew up watching and see it was more or less 'normal'. It's only because we divorced the concepts over time due to concern over what we present our youth that it even became a thing for cartoony to not possess a serious quality.
Consequently, I can't agree, as I am familiar with such cartoony styles used in some relatively moody settings without any kind of qualms being raised in my mind.
If that is something you are unfamiliar with and consequently have a hard time coming to grip with, it can only be remarked as an opinion.
Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough were I was talking about general concepts and were I started talking specifically about EQN. Of course you have to put it all into perspective when it comes to EQN. The art style is somewhat cute but not Hello-Kitty-cute. So the Art Style Dissonance wouldn’t be that extreme, but there is at least a clear tendency in this direction. Then again you can’t deny that at least the girl character is build to be cute; her face has clear childlike characteristics.
I think the whole issue has a lot to do with the difference between anime and western cartoons. While asian art can somehow mix almost everything without looking out of place, western cartoons have a very specific niche. Both styles evoke very different expectations.
EQN is clearly on the western side and it even has a very distinctive Disney style. As you said western cartoons have gone thought devolution. Today it would be impossible to pull of something as dark as the death-scene from Bambi. The 90s Disney films (Aladdin, Hercules …) where straight comedies. Pixar is blowing new life into it with films like Up, but these films also have a different art style then the classic Disney films and they are still not about fighting orcs 24/7.
My point is that wherever you see something with a classical Disney style you assume you are in for either a comedy or a cartoon show targeted towards kids with cardboard characters and shallow storytelling like the The Clone Wars TV show, that has a almost the exact same art style as EQN. You could put it as blunt as Disney art style = goofy cartoon. I think it would cause an Art Style Dissonance if something with a clear Disney-like art style would be different. Wildstar meets all expectations there, it goes all out comedy. I really hope EQN will avoid this kind of storytelling at all costs. If EQN would turn out to be anything like Wildstar it would be nothing less then blatant betrayal. My fear is not that the cartoony art style will cause an Art Style Dissonance, but that it doesn’t because they adapt the whole game to the art style.
I like how the OP pretends to be all scientific, but doesn't even observe the simplest of testing protocols, namely keeping your test the same across subjects. He should have asked the same questions in both surveys, and also used neutral language.
Instead he asked different questions, and in each used words that have value judgments associated with them. A clear agenda.
But let's use the OP's approach to the data:
88.9% like ESO art style as is, or want it grittier.
87% like EQNext art style as is, or want it grittier.
Seems like they are about the same.
Yes of course these are no strict scientific methods. We aren’t doing quantum physics here. I only did the poll on the ESO forum. For the rest I worked with the stuff that was already there. If it would satisfy you feel free to do another poll about the art style with the questions you find appropriate.
I don’t think there is any judgment, not in my poll nor in the other two. I honestly tried to keep my questions as unbiased as possible. Please tell me what exactly I did wrong? What are the value judgments and what would have been neutral language?
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Yes you can put it that way. Everyone is calling for gritter graphics. I’m sure the people who wanted grittier graphics on the ESO forum are very glad that they at least got what they have and not the art style from EQN.
Given the most widely played MMO at the moment has that type of art, I think your opinion is quite invalid. Just wait and see how ESO will crash and burn, give it a few months. I think we have another SWTOR showdown coming 2014. Only because its P2P.
I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls...always bought the games even though I could pirate them with no hassle but i wanted to support the developers. I just don't get the same value for my money from a P2P MMO as I did with a boxed game. The issue I have with P2P is MMOs is not the 15$. I earn a lot more per day. What bothers me is the fact that I do pay the development costs (e.g. the box price) and im forced to pay 15$ if i want to keep playing the game. That means the game is NOT actually mine. Which is a huge FLOP and is scam tactics 101. It's a pitty so many people fall for it and brag about it
Given the most widely played MMO at the moment has that type of art, I think your opinion is quite invalid. Just wait and see how ESO will crash and burn, give it a few months. I think we have another SWTOR showdown coming 2014. Only because its P2P.
I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls...always bought the games even though I could pirate them with no hassle but i wanted to support the developers. I just don't get the same value for my money from a P2P MMO as I did with a boxed game. The issue I have with P2P is MMOs is not the 15$. I earn a lot more per day. What bothers me is the fact that I do pay the development costs (e.g. the box price) and im forced to pay 15$ if i want to keep playing the game. That means the game is NOT actually mine. Which is a huge FLOP and is scam tactics 101. It's a pitty so many people fall for it and brag about it
What is wrong wtih you people
As an MMO, and as a player who wants the massive social aspects that are possible, I don't want players to "own" the game. That gives any individual or group too much power. I want it as a service that's controlled by the producer, and from there I'll pay for it or not.
Originally posted by Consequence Every time someone brings up "art style" as a major point in defining the quality of game I point to minecraft and watch them scramble and backpedal.
Yeah, while I am concerned about the art style a little, it's the game play that's more important.
Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
Many players that play a game because its free, and they are cheap, does not make for a successful game with much development. New content requires people that actually spend money, and if EQN doesn't get enough whales to pay for the freeloaders it will fail no matter how many million freeloaders play.
Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
Many players that play a game because its free, and they are cheap, does not make for a successful game with much development. New content requires people that actually spend money, and if EQN doesn't get enough whales to pay for the freeloaders it will fail no matter how many million freeloaders play.
They know how to sell - "I like how is looks on me! Buy it!", "Wow an awesome horse to ride! Buy it!", "That would look awesome on the wall in my house! Buy It!", "That tower would look awesome in my castle! Buy It!", "I would look awesome carrying around that Bow! Buy It!"
The whole reason they went F2P was because of two things. They needed more people to play. They wanted to make more money then the simple $14.99 a month they were getting out of people.
EQ1 and EQ2 would have been closed down and they would not be able to build EQN if F2P didn't pay SOE enough. Since they are making enough $$ from EQ1 and EQ2 and EQN programming is going strong; I would say that F2P can be a success for both the player and the company.
The wizard from EQ Next looks like a 3D version of that. I don't agree necessarily, but it wouldn't be the deciding factor in not playing this game. The rip off of the horrible GW2 combat system will be though.
Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
Many players that play a game because its free, and they are cheap, does not make for a successful game with much development. New content requires people that actually spend money, and if EQN doesn't get enough whales to pay for the freeloaders it will fail no matter how many million freeloaders play.
Originally posted by Consequence Every time someone brings up "art style" as a major point in defining the quality of game I point to minecraft and watch them scramble and backpedal.
It doesn't define the quality of the game, but it does define the appeal of the game to certain demographics and tastes. For example, WoW may be an excellent quality game, but i can't bring myself to play something that looks like smurf vomit. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of taste / appeal.
That being said, the opposite is also true, while I love ESO's art style, the mechanics sounds like utter crap, so I have little interest in the game. I won't play it just because it's pretty.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Consequence Every time someone brings up "art style" as a major point in defining the quality of game I point to minecraft and watch them scramble and backpedal.
It doesn't define the quality of the game, but it does define the appeal of the game to certain demographics and tastes. For example, WoW may be an excellent quality game, but i can't bring myself to play something that looks like smurf vomit. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of taste / appeal.
That being said, the opposite is also true, while I love ESO's art style, the mechanics sounds like utter crap, so I have little interest in the game. I won't play it just because it's pretty.
Exactly. The preference is completely subjective, though certain demographics will tend to prefer one type over another. EQ:N is aiming at attracting all types of players. Looking at the most successful MMO (WoW) and the insanely popular LoL, I would have been amazed if they used ESO-style graphics.
Personally, I much prefer the EQ:N graphics to ESO. While I do think Keeshar (the lion) is a bit over-the-top, I love the overall look of the EQ:N art shown thus far. I played Skyrim and hated how everything was just monotone grey. If I wanted realism I wouldn't play a game with magic and dragons, I'd play some random FPS.
Comments
The textures and models are designed with each other in mind. Putting a set of less stylized textures on the models would not result in something that looks less stylized, it would result in something that looks like the art assets don't match the models.
Besides, the number of people this would actually affect is going to be trivial, compared to the cost of doubling the texture work.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Another response, concerning the polls themselves, is that the results could be interpreted as the people responding are averse to change.
ESO's art style is more like the games that it follows in the ES series. EQN's art style is a departure from EQ and EQ2's art style. It's a change and there are people who just don't like change.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Despite this being more work and potentially leading to clashing art, this also alienates players who make up their character to look a certain way so other people see them that way. Having different models ruins this as you might like how you look in one art style, but in the other it looks terrible.
I like how the OP pretends to be all scientific, but doesn't even observe the simplest of testing protocols, namely keeping your test the same across subjects. He should have asked the same questions in both surveys, and also used neutral language.
Instead he asked different questions, and in each used words that have value judgments associated with them. A clear agenda.
But let's use the OP's approach to the data:
88.9% like ESO art style as is, or want it grittier.
87% like EQNext art style as is, or want it grittier.
Seems like they are about the same.
The Magic Eight Ball says, "Not Likely".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough were I was talking about general concepts and were I started talking specifically about EQN. Of course you have to put it all into perspective when it comes to EQN. The art style is somewhat cute but not Hello-Kitty-cute. So the Art Style Dissonance wouldn’t be that extreme, but there is at least a clear tendency in this direction. Then again you can’t deny that at least the girl character is build to be cute; her face has clear childlike characteristics.
I think the whole issue has a lot to do with the difference between anime and western cartoons. While asian art can somehow mix almost everything without looking out of place, western cartoons have a very specific niche. Both styles evoke very different expectations.
EQN is clearly on the western side and it even has a very distinctive Disney style. As you said western cartoons have gone thought devolution. Today it would be impossible to pull of something as dark as the death-scene from Bambi. The 90s Disney films (Aladdin, Hercules …) where straight comedies. Pixar is blowing new life into it with films like Up, but these films also have a different art style then the classic Disney films and they are still not about fighting orcs 24/7.
My point is that wherever you see something with a classical Disney style you assume you are in for either a comedy or a cartoon show targeted towards kids with cardboard characters and shallow storytelling like the The Clone Wars TV show, that has a almost the exact same art style as EQN. You could put it as blunt as Disney art style = goofy cartoon. I think it would cause an Art Style Dissonance if something with a clear Disney-like art style would be different. Wildstar meets all expectations there, it goes all out comedy. I really hope EQN will avoid this kind of storytelling at all costs. If EQN would turn out to be anything like Wildstar it would be nothing less then blatant betrayal. My fear is not that the cartoony art style will cause an Art Style Dissonance, but that it doesn’t because they adapt the whole game to the art style.
Yes of course these are no strict scientific methods. We aren’t doing quantum physics here. I only did the poll on the ESO forum. For the rest I worked with the stuff that was already there. If it would satisfy you feel free to do another poll about the art style with the questions you find appropriate.
I don’t think there is any judgment, not in my poll nor in the other two. I honestly tried to keep my questions as unbiased as possible. Please tell me what exactly I did wrong? What are the value judgments and what would have been neutral language?
---
Yes you can put it that way. Everyone is calling for gritter graphics. I’m sure the people who wanted grittier graphics on the ESO forum are very glad that they at least got what they have and not the art style from EQN.
Given the most widely played MMO at the moment has that type of art, I think your opinion is quite invalid. Just wait and see how ESO will crash and burn, give it a few months. I think we have another SWTOR showdown coming 2014. Only because its P2P.
I'm a huge fan of Elder Scrolls...always bought the games even though I could pirate them with no hassle but i wanted to support the developers. I just don't get the same value for my money from a P2P MMO as I did with a boxed game. The issue I have with P2P is MMOs is not the 15$. I earn a lot more per day. What bothers me is the fact that I do pay the development costs (e.g. the box price) and im forced to pay 15$ if i want to keep playing the game. That means the game is NOT actually mine. Which is a huge FLOP and is scam tactics 101. It's a pitty so many people fall for it and brag about it
What is wrong wtih you people
As an MMO, and as a player who wants the massive social aspects that are possible, I don't want players to "own" the game. That gives any individual or group too much power. I want it as a service that's controlled by the producer, and from there I'll pay for it or not.
Once upon a time....
Yeah, while I am concerned about the art style a little, it's the game play that's more important.
Once upon a time....
Many players that play a game because its free, and they are cheap, does not make for a successful game with much development. New content requires people that actually spend money, and if EQN doesn't get enough whales to pay for the freeloaders it will fail no matter how many million freeloaders play.
They know how to sell - "I like how is looks on me! Buy it!", "Wow an awesome horse to ride! Buy it!", "That would look awesome on the wall in my house! Buy It!", "That tower would look awesome in my castle! Buy It!", "I would look awesome carrying around that Bow! Buy It!"
The whole reason they went F2P was because of two things. They needed more people to play. They wanted to make more money then the simple $14.99 a month they were getting out of people.
EQ1 and EQ2 would have been closed down and they would not be able to build EQN if F2P didn't pay SOE enough. Since they are making enough $$ from EQ1 and EQ2 and EQN programming is going strong; I would say that F2P can be a success for both the player and the company.
Here is Belle from Beauty and the Beast
The wizard from EQ Next looks like a 3D version of that. I don't agree necessarily, but it wouldn't be the deciding factor in not playing this game. The rip off of the horrible GW2 combat system will be though.
Killing dragons is my shit
Exactly, free to play is the death of good mmos
Killing dragons is my shit
It doesn't define the quality of the game, but it does define the appeal of the game to certain demographics and tastes. For example, WoW may be an excellent quality game, but i can't bring myself to play something that looks like smurf vomit. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of taste / appeal.
That being said, the opposite is also true, while I love ESO's art style, the mechanics sounds like utter crap, so I have little interest in the game. I won't play it just because it's pretty.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Exactly. The preference is completely subjective, though certain demographics will tend to prefer one type over another. EQ:N is aiming at attracting all types of players. Looking at the most successful MMO (WoW) and the insanely popular LoL, I would have been amazed if they used ESO-style graphics.
Personally, I much prefer the EQ:N graphics to ESO. While I do think Keeshar (the lion) is a bit over-the-top, I love the overall look of the EQ:N art shown thus far. I played Skyrim and hated how everything was just monotone grey. If I wanted realism I wouldn't play a game with magic and dragons, I'd play some random FPS.
First Bioshock and now Everquest.
I knew Belle was bookish, didn't figure she was a gamer.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin