I've played DAOC on and off for 11+ years.My wife still plays.
It's the only game I would play in today's mmog world
GW2's WvW was a truly bitter disappointment for me.The WvW war area looks great but plays like a two week 24/7 basketball game where the team that scores the most points wins. Then you pretend it never happened and do it all over again.
There used to be up to a 5 hour que (on some servers)waiting to get into to WvW...players were that excited about want they thought it was.They solve the que problem completely by ignoring player demands for re-design....and players stopped coming ...and simply left the game.
Foreword: I'm not claiming DAoC was the perfect end-all-be-all of MMORPGs, nor am I claiming that any of the points below were only found in DAoC.
1: Every content update was heavily tested for weeks/months on a populated, open PLAYER-BASED test server BEFORE mass deployment to regular shards.
2: The chat system doubled as a command prompt for the core game client. You could player query(search for players based on any parameter[name/level/class/guild/location]) your zone, or any zone by doing a search with that zone's name. It also made it very easy to find other players in your current area, players from a certain guild, players of a certain level range, etc. The way it worked also actually fostered social interaction via chat.
Almost all non-combat functions could also be executed from a simple typed command. Games today flood you with tons of visual menus that don't function half as well as a simple command prompt built into the chat system.
3: Crafting ruled the player equipment world.It was really tedious, difficult, time-consuming, and BENEFITIAL. The best armor/weapons in the game were crafted via an item "quality" system and reasonably expensive because they required a large amount of refined or rare resources. It should be noted that these items were not un-attainable for the average Joe, they just cost a lot. Raid and dungeon items were still very good and often had special colors and effects, but top-end crafted items held the title of max possible stats.
4: Replayability. Your options were huge. Three "Realms" (not one or two), each with its own lore/races/classes and entirely separated from each other except in open world PvP.
Each one of the three realms also had 11 UNIQUE classes (16 currently), which each had different skill paths you could take, making the possibilities vast and interesting. Today's MMORPGs barely manage one starting area/realm with 3-5 tired-to-death cookie cutter classes.
5: PvP/RvR. Three completely segregated and proud "realms" constantly jockeying for realm-wide benefits via "relics". It fostered such a strong nationality for each realm that people of all levels and skills were mobilized and extremely motivated to go and do REAL, non-instanced PvP that actually mattered to everyone. It even mattered to strictly PvE players that never set foot on the frontier to do PvP, because their PvE stats would be mildly affected by the status of your realm's relic control.
6: Mixing high level content with low level content. The zones in each realm had their target level, but they also had pockets of much higher level mobs that were necessary for quests or dropped special items. I think this is important because it makes the world more interesting, mixed, more like a sandbox, less linear, and less like a packaged theme park. (i.e. Mario 64 vs. Crash Bandicoot).
7: Active out-of-game web access to current in-game data. DAoC had a web portal to it's current in-game status that kept track of every player and guild on every server. It also allowed you to see, in real time, what was going on in the 3-realm warfare on your server without even needing to log into the game. This was in 2001. Games today don't even have this level of coverage.
8: Dungeons were open-world, not instanced. A lot of people will probably argue that instanced dungeons are a positive evolution, but I disagree. Instanced dungeons promote solo and exclusive play which can be boring and predictable. I feel like open-world dungeons promote social interaction between players and gently force strangers to work together and find solutions ad-hoc. Often times strangers would become friends through these interactions. It is simply more engaging and memorable in the long run.
9: Darkness Falls. A huge three-realm dungeon, connected to three-realm PvP(RvR) that offered the best of every world. PvP, PvE, strategy, amazing gear...it was all a master stroke combination to get people to come together to really challenge one another to have access to various enticing benefits. Darkness Falls was simply MMO developer genius that I haven't seen repeated since.
10: Guild emblems. This may seem goofy or irrelevant to some but it actually created even more of a guild/realm pride when you and your whole group of friends could run out onto the frontier in matching guild emblems/colors. People knew who you were with visual impact.
Not a big fan of pvp but for some reason during my time in DAoC I lived in the frontiers with my hunter. RvR and keep battles were addicting. The real fun was logging in Darkness Falls and coming back after the dirty hibbies took control and seeing how many I could take out before they got me. I agree with all of your points. My only issues in DAoC was the botting and Trials of Atlantis.
TLDR; There is no such thing as ignorance in this industry, and nothing was suddenly abandoned. It is a slow evolution of genre that is steadily going in one direction. Every feature that you might find amazing and flawless, actually has some downfalls and risks. Developers take everything in consideration, most importantly the demand that players create, and the lack of features that you in particular want is the effect of it.
I agree that the industry is not ignorant to the changes they make but the changes they make has less to do with the quality of the game they are producing and more with the games ability to squeeze money out of as many people as possible.
You will be hard pressed to find any DEVs working at the major studios that haven't had their game... "streamlined", "adjusted to target a wider audience", "made current","focused",etc.... At the moment the MMO industry sold out to chase casual, impatient, challenge averse, players. Like everything, MMOs change and the current state is just a phase.
#11 - Eight man group size - I recall they even considered upping it to 10 at one point. Ever since every MMO has decreased the size of groups until now 4 is considered normal.
This makes the problem of finding tanks/healers much harder, since you need one tank per group, so 8 mans makes it that much easier to group.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You will be hard pressed to find any DEVs working at the major studios that haven't had their game... "streamlined", "adjusted to target a wider audience", "made current","focused",etc.... At the moment the MMO industry sold out to chase casual, impatient, challenge averse, players. Like everything, MMOs change and the current state is just a phase.
"sold out"? Don't make it sound like you are superior to those players. We are talking about games here. They are as legitimate as you are, as a customer.
I don't see, in a free market, why devs should not chase after them, and only chase after you.
Your preference is not better, just different.
In fact, if i am a dev, even if i am not chasing after money, i would like my games to be enjoyed by MORE, not fewer people.
You will be hard pressed to find any DEVs working at the major studios that haven't had their game... "streamlined", "adjusted to target a wider audience", "made current","focused",etc.... At the moment the MMO industry sold out to chase casual, impatient, challenge averse, players. Like everything, MMOs change and the current state is just a phase.
"sold out"? Don't make it sound like you are superior to those players. We are talking about games here. They are as legitimate as you are, as a customer.
I don't see, in a free market, why devs should not chase after them, and only chase after you.
Your preference is not better, just different.
In fact, if i am a dev, even if i am not chasing after money, i would like my games to be enjoyed by MORE, not fewer people.
I am not making claims about " ME " being superior to any other players, just the simple observation that the original MMOs were a superior experience when it comes to time investment, effort, challenge, risk,etc... I don't blame the industry for chasing the cash but it doesn't make the products they produce better.
Basically the Original MMOs were like Restaurants that offered foods (Beef Wellington, Souffles, Turkey Dinner) that require effort and skill to create , whereas the mainstream MMOs nowadays are like McDonalds pushing out fast food ( Chicken Nuggets, French Fries, Big Macs).
You will be hard pressed to find any DEVs working at the major studios that haven't had their game... "streamlined", "adjusted to target a wider audience", "made current","focused",etc.... At the moment the MMO industry sold out to chase casual, impatient, challenge averse, players. Like everything, MMOs change and the current state is just a phase.
"sold out"? Don't make it sound like you are superior to those players. We are talking about games here. They are as legitimate as you are, as a customer.
I don't see, in a free market, why devs should not chase after them, and only chase after you.
Your preference is not better, just different.
In fact, if i am a dev, even if i am not chasing after money, i would like my games to be enjoyed by MORE, not fewer people.
I am not making claims about " ME " being superior to any other players, just the simple observation that the original MMOs were a superior experience when it comes to time investment, effort, challenge, risk,etc... I don't blame the industry for chasing the cash but it doesn't make the products they produce better.
Basically the Original MMOs were like Restaurants that offered foods (Beef Wellington, Souffles, Turkey Dinner) that require effort and skill to create , whereas the mainstream MMOs nowadays are like McDonalds pushing out fast food ( Chicken Nuggets, French Fries, Big Macs).
I'd say for a lot of them (but It may be a reference only fully understood local to me) more like In n' Out Burgers...I can relate to what you said about Mcdonald's vs. a sit down restaurant. But at Mcdonald's there is a possibility of getting more...
At an In n' Out, literately all they have is burgers, fries, and cokes...They are supposed to be fast...And even though the line looks long they will take your order quick...then take an hour to make it and give it to you (after they have your money of course). Was awesome when it first opened from what Iv'e heard. But, there are not many old enough to remember that and those that are, they are viscous old people who hate on people in 'their restaurant'. Usually the blame for the basically edible food but terrible service vs. the promise of an amazingly quick experience, usually is sited as new people working their who don't know what they are doing.
But, the staff all know what a few of the smarter people figured out (though the staff won't say because everyone is a "valued customer")...It's that dang drive-thru slowing things down for everyone else. Some go somewhere else. Some are even so upset that they leave without getting what they have already ordered and paid for. Many stay and either sit through it for lack of a better idea, or start using the drive-thru more. Although you can tell a lot of them don't have cars and so are forced to use the regular way. And, the worst part is their name implies fast satisfying service and their menu looks a lot better then the over processed junk they practically toss at you in a greasy bag.
Really... I know it sounds like it. But, I am not forcing an analogy here. This how this fast food place is. And, I am sure many of us have one like this near where we live. What you said brought this place immediately back to mind. And, the natural parallels that can be drawn from this are uncanny.
And, how did it get that way? Because at one point (stories tell it as - and cooincidentally bringing it back around to what you said- ) McDonald's figured out to use an assembly line like system in how they put out their product...They took the wholesome and applied industry to it, in order to turn a bigger profit quicker.
The OP has a pretty good list of design decisions that helped improve the DAoC experience. I'll add another.
10+n) Segregating the realms. Mythic went to great lengths to break the population into 3 distinct segments. There was no way to communicate (in-game) to members of the opposing realms. The PvE areas were isolated (exception: the Mordred experiment). They enforced the Realm choice on a per-server basis -- If you had a Midgard character on Server X, you could not create any characters on Server X except in Midgard (no in-game spys).
I think this particular design decision helped strengthen the community, particularly before the server mergers and cross-server play started to compromise this isolation.
DAoC had its flaws, but many of its features and concepts were quite well done. No game is perfect -- it had a steep PvE curve, the RvR was plagued by their initial 'stealth' decisions and the various mez/stun effects with corresponding realm abilities (which should have been in place from the very start) to counter those effects.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Never played DAOC but I wish I did. Sounds like, originally, it was my cup of tea for sure. High hopes for Camelot Unchained
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Too many things have changed player wise, such as attitudes, for a lot of what worked back then to work now.
It's my opinion that current players really wouldn't care at all about faction/realm pride. We'd probably see one side heavily stacked prior to release with dozens and dozens of rather large guilds teaming up and setting up alliances to guarantee victory. Once that happens, all the "free agents" will transfer their way or reroll to the winning side. People won't like losing.
The players themselves would kill any sort of competitive balance any game attempts to implement.
I agree with the OP, but i just can't see most of those elements working with todays players.
I agree with this person being a gamer for many years none of this would work, just like I love Asheron Call 1 , hardly anything in that game would work today , because of today's gamers. They would whine. They want everything for free and now.!!!
Foreword: I'm not claiming DAoC was the perfect end-all-be-all of MMORPGs, nor am I claiming that any of the points below were only found in DAoC.
1: Every content update was heavily tested for weeks/months on a populated, open PLAYER-BASED test server BEFORE mass deployment to regular shards.
2: The chat system doubled as a command prompt for the core game client. You could player query(search for players based on any parameter[name/level/class/guild/location]) your zone, or any zone by doing a search with that zone's name. It also made it very easy to find other players in your current area, players from a certain guild, players of a certain level range, etc. The way it worked also actually fostered social interaction via chat.
Almost all non-combat functions could also be executed from a simple typed command. Games today flood you with tons of visual menus that don't function half as well as a simple command prompt built into the chat system.
3: Crafting ruled the player equipment world.It was really tedious, difficult, time-consuming, and BENEFITIAL. The best armor/weapons in the game were crafted via an item "quality" system and reasonably expensive because they required a large amount of refined or rare resources. It should be noted that these items were not un-attainable for the average Joe, they just cost a lot. Raid and dungeon items were still very good and often had special colors and effects, but top-end crafted items held the title of max possible stats.
4: Replayability. Your options were huge. Three "Realms" (not one or two), each with its own lore/races/classes and entirely separated from each other except in open world PvP.
Each one of the three realms also had 11 UNIQUE classes (16 currently), which each had different skill paths you could take, making the possibilities vast and interesting. Today's MMORPGs barely manage one starting area/realm with 3-5 tired-to-death cookie cutter classes.
5: PvP/RvR. Three completely segregated and proud "realms" constantly jockeying for realm-wide benefits via "relics". It fostered such a strong nationality for each realm that people of all levels and skills were mobilized and extremely motivated to go and do REAL, non-instanced PvP that actually mattered to everyone. It even mattered to strictly PvE players that never set foot on the frontier to do PvP, because their PvE stats would be mildly affected by the status of your realm's relic control.
6: Mixing high level content with low level content. The zones in each realm had their target level, but they also had pockets of much higher level mobs that were necessary for quests or dropped special items. I think this is important because it makes the world more interesting, mixed, more like a sandbox, less linear, and less like a packaged theme park. (i.e. Mario 64 vs. Crash Bandicoot).
7: Active out-of-game web access to current in-game data. DAoC had a web portal to it's current in-game status that kept track of every player and guild on every server. It also allowed you to see, in real time, what was going on in the 3-realm warfare on your server without even needing to log into the game. This was in 2001. Games today don't even have this level of coverage.
8: Dungeons were open-world, not instanced. A lot of people will probably argue that instanced dungeons are a positive evolution, but I disagree. Instanced dungeons promote solo and exclusive play which can be boring and predictable. I feel like open-world dungeons promote social interaction between players and gently force strangers to work together and find solutions ad-hoc. Often times strangers would become friends through these interactions. It is simply more engaging and memorable in the long run.
9: Darkness Falls. A huge three-realm dungeon, connected to three-realm PvP(RvR) that offered the best of every world. PvP, PvE, strategy, amazing gear...it was all a master stroke combination to get people to come together to really challenge one another to have access to various enticing benefits. Darkness Falls was simply MMO developer genius that I haven't seen repeated since.
10: Guild emblems. This may seem goofy or irrelevant to some but it actually created even more of a guild/realm pride when you and your whole group of friends could run out onto the frontier in matching guild emblems/colors. People knew who you were with visual impact.
Great post OP !!
Though, those ideas have not been forgotten, just tucked away in quiet corners..
You shouldn't give the Dev-bulder's who listen here... all the secrets. Next thing you know.. Rusty Sword will have a fake version of everything you've said and fool more people into believing it's depth. Narius is right, too many whales in the ocean... can't stop feeding off them. These kid's own ignorance makes it easy. They are pie-eyed on FREE.
it's unbelievable..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
There should just be a button at the top of the page, to save posters needing to re-enter this stuff every day.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think I will try the new Dark Age. The problem I had with the old one was the level grind was bad. The new one seems to be RvR only which sounds like it could be fun.
FFXI did all of that except no real focus on anything PVP which i am more than fine with,you can't mix them anyhow,it will never work.# realms as well but opened up to more choice as you venture out of the realms.
FFXI's crafting was and probably is the most robust of any game but no it did not boast the best weapons and again i am ok with that,it does have it's uses.Gear until recently really was never the big factor in combat it was group play,something games now a days do not get at all.
Eq2 has their guild emblems on their cloaks,also has a robust craft system everything you need in a game except again no real focus on pvp,again imo that is a good point.
Too many people keep pointing to pvp and idk why,it is NEVER done well let alone right.Pvp in every single game is nothing more than have players stand out in the open and spam their dps.I come from a pvp background,i was more into pvp than rpg's at one time.I am used to cosntant strategy,trying to out think your opponent or to confuse him,using and knowing when to take cover and knowing how to play a map.I also found that utilizing z axis was huge in pvp,NONE of these factors are present in rpg pvp games.ALso in good pvp you have to make choices on weapon selection again in rpg's there is no such strategies.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There should just be a button at the top of the page, to save posters needing to re-enter this stuff every day.
Well, maybe you could create a new thread instead of adding nothing but smarmy post.
A new thread about...perpetual posts that never stop coming?
I was just trying to save them some time; surely they have ten years of back-posts to copy/pasta from?
We could auto-generate standard text, even "/rawr me too" standard replies. Or if that's too impersonal, maybe some fill in the blanks? Multiple choice?
Would you like to add a couple of paragraphs about These Kids Today? (y/n)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
There should just be a button at the top of the page, to save posters needing to re-enter this stuff every day.
Well, maybe you could create a new thread instead of adding nothing but smarmy post.
A new thread about...perpetual posts that never stop coming?
I was just trying to save them some time; surely they have ten years of back-posts to copy/pasta from?
We could auto-generate standard text, even "/rawr me too" standard replies. Or if that's too impersonal, maybe some fill in the blanks? Multiple choice?
Would you like to add a couple of paragraphs about These Kids Today? (y/n)
Actually, I think your post tend to be more perpetual than anything other people post about. The OP gave an original post about specific things from DAoC that today's MMORPG don't have. Please find me a thread repeating the same thing. Not the general topic that MMORPG's are lacking.
I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
In the gentle hope that some day the forum (in general) moves beyond 2003. Or at least peeks into this century.
But you're right, I should stick only to MOD-safe backhanded insults (like yours), and aimed at one of the four standard mmorpg.com approved-to-hate groups.
A) WoW players, Themepark (in general) players, C) F2P players, or D) Youth.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everquest 2 had a lot of these things as well. It was because the time was put into these games back in the day. These games were a huge deal, and ground breaking at the time. Now every asshole is pumping out an mmo once a year with no love put into it.
I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
In the gentle hope that some day the forum (in general) moves beyond 2003. Or at least peeks into this century.
But you're right, I should stick only to MOD-safe backhanded insults (like yours), and aimed at one of the four standard mmorpg.com approved-to-hate groups.
A) WoW players, Themepark (in general) players, C) F2P players, or D) Youth.
Lol, I'm not insulting anyone. But again your many of the post I've see you make here tend to be more sideways insults then anything I post.
Again, I am sure you could use the energy it takes to make smarmy post to enlighten us stuck in 2003 and make constructive conversations about 2013 if you want people to talk about 2013. But maybe that's just me.
Foreword: I'm not claiming DAoC was the perfect end-all-be-all of MMORPGs, nor am I claiming that any of the points below were only found in DAoC.
1: Every content update was heavily tested for weeks/months on a populated, open PLAYER-BASED test server BEFORE mass deployment to regular shards.
Many MMO's have a test server liker Eve, SW:TOR, WoW, EQ1 & 2 and many more.
2: The chat system doubled as a command prompt for the core game client. You could player query(search for players based on any parameter[name/level/class/guild/location]) your zone, or any zone by doing a search with that zone's name. It also made it very easy to find other players in your current area, players from a certain guild, players of a certain level range, etc. The way it worked also actually fostered social interaction via chat.
Almost all non-combat functions could also be executed from a simple typed command. Games today flood you with tons of visual menus that don't function half as well as a simple command prompt built into the chat system.
So you want to go back to a Cli rather than making the new systems more powerful?
3: Crafting ruled the player equipment world.It was really tedious, difficult, time-consuming, and BENEFITIAL. The best armor/weapons in the game were crafted via an item "quality" system and reasonably expensive because they required a large amount of refined or rare resources. It should be noted that these items were not un-attainable for the average Joe, they just cost a lot. Raid and dungeon items were still very good and often had special colors and effects, but top-end crafted items held the title of max possible stats.
So you are promoting a tedious gameplay system as being beneficial to players enjoyment of the game?
4: Replayability. Your options were huge. Three "Realms" (not one or two), each with its own lore/races/classes and entirely separated from each other except in open world PvP.
Each one of the three realms also had 11 UNIQUE classes (16 currently), which each had different skill paths you could take, making the possibilities vast and interesting. Today's MMORPGs barely manage one starting area/realm with 3-5 tired-to-death cookie cutter classes.
Do you really mean 11 unique classes or 11 slightly modified versions of the other realms classes? but if they are unique do you think dev's really would love to try and balance that lot out, this isn't lets throw ideas at the players and hope they stick era of MMO development.
5: PvP/RvR. Three completely segregated and proud "realms" constantly jockeying for realm-wide benefits via "relics". It fostered such a strong nationality for each realm that people of all levels and skills were mobilized and extremely motivated to go and do REAL, non-instanced PvP that actually mattered to everyone. It even mattered to strictly PvE players that never set foot on the frontier to do PvP, because their PvE stats would be mildly affected by the status of your realm's relic control.
So where did the phrase "Realm Hopping" come from if there was "strong nationality" going on?
6: Mixing high level content with low level content. The zones in each realm had their target level, but they also had pockets of much higher level mobs that were necessary for quests or dropped special items. I think this is important because it makes the world more interesting, mixed, more like a sandbox, less linear, and less like a packaged theme park. (i.e. Mario 64 vs. Crash Bandicoot).
This developed into roaming elites, open world Raid bosses or Bams (Big Ass Monthers) in Tera but at least you had a chance in defeating them with high level mobs you'd just get one shotted.
7: Active out-of-game web access to current in-game data. DAoC had a web portal to it's current in-game status that kept track of every player and guild on every server. It also allowed you to see, in real time, what was going on in the 3-realm warfare on your server without even needing to log into the game. This was in 2001. Games today don't even have this level of coverage.
EQplayer, WoW Armoury are two examples of this in modern MMO's and some games like Rift and WoW have mobile apps so you can use the in game AH.
8: Dungeons were open-world, not instanced. A lot of people will probably argue that instanced dungeons are a positive evolution, but I disagree. Instanced dungeons promote solo and exclusive play which can be boring and predictable. I feel like open-world dungeons promote social interaction between players and gently force strangers to work together and find solutions ad-hoc. Often times strangers would become friends through these interactions. It is simply more engaging and memorable in the long run.
Tera, EQ2 and Vanguard have non instanced dungeons.
9: Darkness Falls. A huge three-realm dungeon, connected to three-realm PvP(RvR) that offered the best of every world. PvP, PvE, strategy, amazing gear...it was all a master stroke combination to get people to come together to really challenge one another to have access to various enticing benefits. Darkness Falls was simply MMO developer genius that I haven't seen repeated since.
Tera and Warhammer have have extra unlockable areas if you succeed in winning the PvP matches.
10: Guild emblems. This may seem goofy or irrelevant to some but it actually created even more of a guild/realm pride when you and your whole group of friends could run out onto the frontier in matching guild emblems/colors. People knew who you were with visual impact.
Wow, GW1, FFXIV, Aion and probably some other games have Guild Emblems.
Are you falling prey to the "it was better back in my day syndrome"?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
FFXI did all of that except no real focus on anything PVP which i am more than fine with,you can't mix them anyhow,it will never work.# realms as well but opened up to more choice as you venture out of the realms.
FFXI's crafting was and probably is the most robust of any game but no it did not boast the best weapons and again i am ok with that,it does have it's uses.Gear until recently really was never the big factor in combat it was group play,something games now a days do not get at all.
Eq2 has their guild emblems on their cloaks,also has a robust craft system everything you need in a game except again no real focus on pvp,again imo that is a good point.
Too many people keep pointing to pvp and idk why,it is NEVER done well let alone right.Pvp in every single game is nothing more than have players stand out in the open and spam their dps.I come from a pvp background,i was more into pvp than rpg's at one time.I am used to cosntant strategy,trying to out think your opponent or to confuse him,using and knowing when to take cover and knowing how to play a map.I also found that utilizing z axis was huge in pvp,NONE of these factors are present in rpg pvp games.ALso in good pvp you have to make choices on weapon selection again in rpg's there is no such strategies.
I take it from your comments you haven't or don't play DAOC? I'm currently playing a 2003 version of it and it has all of these things, strategy, proper tactics and it is clear why some groups win and how they properly use the game mechanics and design.
These tools have existed for over 10 years, but have been largely forgotten by the mainstream MMO's, so I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about MMO combat.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Foreword: I'm not claiming DAoC was the perfect end-all-be-all of MMORPGs, nor am I claiming that any of the points below were only found in DAoC.
1: Every content update was heavily tested for weeks/months on a populated, open PLAYER-BASED test server BEFORE mass deployment to regular shards.
2: The chat system doubled as a command prompt for the core game client. You could player query(search for players based on any parameter[name/level/class/guild/location]) your zone, or any zone by doing a search with that zone's name. It also made it very easy to find other players in your current area, players from a certain guild, players of a certain level range, etc. The way it worked also actually fostered social interaction via chat.
Almost all non-combat functions could also be executed from a simple typed command. Games today flood you with tons of visual menus that don't function half as well as a simple command prompt built into the chat system.
3: Crafting ruled the player equipment world.It was really tedious, difficult, time-consuming, and BENEFITIAL. The best armor/weapons in the game were crafted via an item "quality" system and reasonably expensive because they required a large amount of refined or rare resources. It should be noted that these items were not un-attainable for the average Joe, they just cost a lot. Raid and dungeon items were still very good and often had special colors and effects, but top-end crafted items held the title of max possible stats.
4: Replayability. Your options were huge. Three "Realms" (not one or two), each with its own lore/races/classes and entirely separated from each other except in open world PvP.
Each one of the three realms also had 11 UNIQUE classes (16 currently), which each had different skill paths you could take, making the possibilities vast and interesting. Today's MMORPGs barely manage one starting area/realm with 3-5 tired-to-death cookie cutter classes.
5: PvP/RvR. Three completely segregated and proud "realms" constantly jockeying for realm-wide benefits via "relics". It fostered such a strong nationality for each realm that people of all levels and skills were mobilized and extremely motivated to go and do REAL, non-instanced PvP that actually mattered to everyone. It even mattered to strictly PvE players that never set foot on the frontier to do PvP, because their PvE stats would be mildly affected by the status of your realm's relic control.
6: Mixing high level content with low level content. The zones in each realm had their target level, but they also had pockets of much higher level mobs that were necessary for quests or dropped special items. I think this is important because it makes the world more interesting, mixed, more like a sandbox, less linear, and less like a packaged theme park. (i.e. Mario 64 vs. Crash Bandicoot).
7: Active out-of-game web access to current in-game data. DAoC had a web portal to it's current in-game status that kept track of every player and guild on every server. It also allowed you to see, in real time, what was going on in the 3-realm warfare on your server without even needing to log into the game. This was in 2001. Games today don't even have this level of coverage.
8: Dungeons were open-world, not instanced. A lot of people will probably argue that instanced dungeons are a positive evolution, but I disagree. Instanced dungeons promote solo and exclusive play which can be boring and predictable. I feel like open-world dungeons promote social interaction between players and gently force strangers to work together and find solutions ad-hoc. Often times strangers would become friends through these interactions. It is simply more engaging and memorable in the long run.
9: Darkness Falls. A huge three-realm dungeon, connected to three-realm PvP(RvR) that offered the best of every world. PvP, PvE, strategy, amazing gear...it was all a master stroke combination to get people to come together to really challenge one another to have access to various enticing benefits. Darkness Falls was simply MMO developer genius that I haven't seen repeated since.
10: Guild emblems. This may seem goofy or irrelevant to some but it actually created even more of a guild/realm pride when you and your whole group of friends could run out onto the frontier in matching guild emblems/colors. People knew who you were with visual impact.
It has always baffled me that so many mmorpgs have not attempted what DAoC created back in 2001. It's shameful and a sure sign that a lack of creativity and overall "why bother look at our player base" mentality has just trashed the industry.
How often I see the following here at mmorpg:
Game is listed
Massive spam about how great the game will be ensues
The game releases
Massive spam about how crappy the game is or disappointing
Game is listed
etc.
Ironically, with Elder Scrolls Online releasing, I'm actually convinced that other mmorpg companies have a % of their staff logging into sites like this to denounce the game with the following:
1. It's a subscription model! Oh noooo!
2. It's not exactly like Skyrim, Oh nooooo!
3. Endless polls about who won't be playing ESO because of the above 2 variables.
Talk about disinformation.
Anyway, OP, fantastic post. And hey, it's quite obvious why Marc Jacobs has called his new IP, Camelot UNCHAINED...considering Dark Age of Camelot was bought out by EA so it could be cast aside and swept under a rug. "If you can't beat them, buy them."
I am hoping ESO and a few other titles will pressure the industry to raise the bar. As of right now - there's a plethora of players that have ZERO idea what Dark Age brought to a blind industry.
On Facebook, there was a post about GW2 - last year during the "spam of awesomeness" phase, shortly before the, "this is just another E-Sport, phase. I got a reply to a DAoC statement where the person stated, "yeah right, 44 classes and 24 races, what have you been smoking?"
I laughed...and then thought how sad it was that this person honestly couldn't believe this sort of thing was possible. The industry has shamed itself - I certainly hope a few upcoming titles paradigm shift the entirety of the crapfest people have been force fed for years.
Comments
I've played DAOC on and off for 11+ years.My wife still plays.
It's the only game I would play in today's mmog world
GW2's WvW was a truly bitter disappointment for me.The WvW war area looks great but plays like a two week 24/7 basketball game where the team that scores the most points wins. Then you pretend it never happened and do it all over again.
There used to be up to a 5 hour que (on some servers)waiting to get into to WvW...players were that excited about want they thought it was.They solve the que problem completely by ignoring player demands for re-design....and players stopped coming ...and simply left the game.
Not a big fan of pvp but for some reason during my time in DAoC I lived in the frontiers with my hunter. RvR and keep battles were addicting. The real fun was logging in Darkness Falls and coming back after the dirty hibbies took control and seeing how many I could take out before they got me. I agree with all of your points. My only issues in DAoC was the botting and Trials of Atlantis.
I agree that the industry is not ignorant to the changes they make but the changes they make has less to do with the quality of the game they are producing and more with the games ability to squeeze money out of as many people as possible.
You will be hard pressed to find any DEVs working at the major studios that haven't had their game... "streamlined", "adjusted to target a wider audience", "made current","focused",etc.... At the moment the MMO industry sold out to chase casual, impatient, challenge averse, players. Like everything, MMOs change and the current state is just a phase.
#11 - Eight man group size - I recall they even considered upping it to 10 at one point. Ever since every MMO has decreased the size of groups until now 4 is considered normal.
This makes the problem of finding tanks/healers much harder, since you need one tank per group, so 8 mans makes it that much easier to group.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"sold out"? Don't make it sound like you are superior to those players. We are talking about games here. They are as legitimate as you are, as a customer.
I don't see, in a free market, why devs should not chase after them, and only chase after you.
Your preference is not better, just different.
In fact, if i am a dev, even if i am not chasing after money, i would like my games to be enjoyed by MORE, not fewer people.
I am not making claims about " ME " being superior to any other players, just the simple observation that the original MMOs were a superior experience when it comes to time investment, effort, challenge, risk,etc... I don't blame the industry for chasing the cash but it doesn't make the products they produce better.
Basically the Original MMOs were like Restaurants that offered foods (Beef Wellington, Souffles, Turkey Dinner) that require effort and skill to create , whereas the mainstream MMOs nowadays are like McDonalds pushing out fast food ( Chicken Nuggets, French Fries, Big Macs).
I'd say for a lot of them (but It may be a reference only fully understood local to me) more like In n' Out Burgers...I can relate to what you said about Mcdonald's vs. a sit down restaurant. But at Mcdonald's there is a possibility of getting more...
At an In n' Out, literately all they have is burgers, fries, and cokes...They are supposed to be fast...And even though the line looks long they will take your order quick...then take an hour to make it and give it to you (after they have your money of course). Was awesome when it first opened from what Iv'e heard. But, there are not many old enough to remember that and those that are, they are viscous old people who hate on people in 'their restaurant'. Usually the blame for the basically edible food but terrible service vs. the promise of an amazingly quick experience, usually is sited as new people working their who don't know what they are doing.
But, the staff all know what a few of the smarter people figured out (though the staff won't say because everyone is a "valued customer")...It's that dang drive-thru slowing things down for everyone else. Some go somewhere else. Some are even so upset that they leave without getting what they have already ordered and paid for. Many stay and either sit through it for lack of a better idea, or start using the drive-thru more. Although you can tell a lot of them don't have cars and so are forced to use the regular way. And, the worst part is their name implies fast satisfying service and their menu looks a lot better then the over processed junk they practically toss at you in a greasy bag.
Really... I know it sounds like it. But, I am not forcing an analogy here. This how this fast food place is. And, I am sure many of us have one like this near where we live. What you said brought this place immediately back to mind. And, the natural parallels that can be drawn from this are uncanny.
And, how did it get that way? Because at one point (stories tell it as - and cooincidentally bringing it back around to what you said- ) McDonald's figured out to use an assembly line like system in how they put out their product...They took the wholesome and applied industry to it, in order to turn a bigger profit quicker.
The OP has a pretty good list of design decisions that helped improve the DAoC experience. I'll add another.
10+n) Segregating the realms. Mythic went to great lengths to break the population into 3 distinct segments. There was no way to communicate (in-game) to members of the opposing realms. The PvE areas were isolated (exception: the Mordred experiment). They enforced the Realm choice on a per-server basis -- If you had a Midgard character on Server X, you could not create any characters on Server X except in Midgard (no in-game spys).
I think this particular design decision helped strengthen the community, particularly before the server mergers and cross-server play started to compromise this isolation.
DAoC had its flaws, but many of its features and concepts were quite well done. No game is perfect -- it had a steep PvE curve, the RvR was plagued by their initial 'stealth' decisions and the various mez/stun effects with corresponding realm abilities (which should have been in place from the very start) to counter those effects.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Never played DAOC but I wish I did. Sounds like, originally, it was my cup of tea for sure. High hopes for Camelot Unchained
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I agree with this person being a gamer for many years none of this would work, just like I love Asheron Call 1 , hardly anything in that game would work today , because of today's gamers. They would whine. They want everything for free and now.!!!
Great post OP !!
Though, those ideas have not been forgotten, just tucked away in quiet corners..
You shouldn't give the Dev-bulder's who listen here... all the secrets. Next thing you know.. Rusty Sword will have a fake version of everything you've said and fool more people into believing it's depth. Narius is right, too many whales in the ocean... can't stop feeding off them. These kid's own ignorance makes it easy. They are pie-eyed on FREE.
it's unbelievable..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
There should just be a button at the top of the page, to save posters needing to re-enter this stuff every day.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, maybe you could create a new thread instead of adding nothing but smarmy post.
Nice list OP
Have you followed Camelot Unchanged?
How many of these will CU bring back you think?
FFXI did all of that except no real focus on anything PVP which i am more than fine with,you can't mix them anyhow,it will never work.# realms as well but opened up to more choice as you venture out of the realms.
FFXI's crafting was and probably is the most robust of any game but no it did not boast the best weapons and again i am ok with that,it does have it's uses.Gear until recently really was never the big factor in combat it was group play,something games now a days do not get at all.
Eq2 has their guild emblems on their cloaks,also has a robust craft system everything you need in a game except again no real focus on pvp,again imo that is a good point.
Too many people keep pointing to pvp and idk why,it is NEVER done well let alone right.Pvp in every single game is nothing more than have players stand out in the open and spam their dps.I come from a pvp background,i was more into pvp than rpg's at one time.I am used to cosntant strategy,trying to out think your opponent or to confuse him,using and knowing when to take cover and knowing how to play a map.I also found that utilizing z axis was huge in pvp,NONE of these factors are present in rpg pvp games.ALso in good pvp you have to make choices on weapon selection again in rpg's there is no such strategies.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A new thread about...perpetual posts that never stop coming?
I was just trying to save them some time; surely they have ten years of back-posts to copy/pasta from?
We could auto-generate standard text, even "/rawr me too" standard replies. Or if that's too impersonal, maybe some fill in the blanks? Multiple choice?
Would you like to add a couple of paragraphs about These Kids Today? (y/n)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Actually, I think your post tend to be more perpetual than anything other people post about. The OP gave an original post about specific things from DAoC that today's MMORPG don't have. Please find me a thread repeating the same thing. Not the general topic that MMORPG's are lacking.
I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
In the gentle hope that some day the forum (in general) moves beyond 2003. Or at least peeks into this century.
But you're right, I should stick only to MOD-safe backhanded insults (like yours), and aimed at one of the four standard mmorpg.com approved-to-hate groups.
A) WoW players,
Themepark (in general) players, C) F2P players, or D) Youth.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Killing dragons is my shit
Lol, I'm not insulting anyone. But again your many of the post I've see you make here tend to be more sideways insults then anything I post.
Again, I am sure you could use the energy it takes to make smarmy post to enlighten us stuck in 2003 and make constructive conversations about 2013 if you want people to talk about 2013. But maybe that's just me.
Many MMO's have a test server liker Eve, SW:TOR, WoW, EQ1 & 2 and many more.
So you want to go back to a Cli rather than making the new systems more powerful?
So you are promoting a tedious gameplay system as being beneficial to players enjoyment of the game?
Do you really mean 11 unique classes or 11 slightly modified versions of the other realms classes? but if they are unique do you think dev's really would love to try and balance that lot out, this isn't lets throw ideas at the players and hope they stick era of MMO development.
So where did the phrase "Realm Hopping" come from if there was "strong nationality" going on?
This developed into roaming elites, open world Raid bosses or Bams (Big Ass Monthers) in Tera but at least you had a chance in defeating them with high level mobs you'd just get one shotted.
EQplayer, WoW Armoury are two examples of this in modern MMO's and some games like Rift and WoW have mobile apps so you can use the in game AH.
Tera, EQ2 and Vanguard have non instanced dungeons.
Tera and Warhammer have have extra unlockable areas if you succeed in winning the PvP matches.
Wow, GW1, FFXIV, Aion and probably some other games have Guild Emblems.
Are you falling prey to the "it was better back in my day syndrome"?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I take it from your comments you haven't or don't play DAOC? I'm currently playing a 2003 version of it and it has all of these things, strategy, proper tactics and it is clear why some groups win and how they properly use the game mechanics and design.
These tools have existed for over 10 years, but have been largely forgotten by the mainstream MMO's, so I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about MMO combat.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It has always baffled me that so many mmorpgs have not attempted what DAoC created back in 2001. It's shameful and a sure sign that a lack of creativity and overall "why bother look at our player base" mentality has just trashed the industry.
How often I see the following here at mmorpg:
Game is listed
Massive spam about how great the game will be ensues
The game releases
Massive spam about how crappy the game is or disappointing
Game is listed
etc.
Ironically, with Elder Scrolls Online releasing, I'm actually convinced that other mmorpg companies have a % of their staff logging into sites like this to denounce the game with the following:
1. It's a subscription model! Oh noooo!
2. It's not exactly like Skyrim, Oh nooooo!
3. Endless polls about who won't be playing ESO because of the above 2 variables.
Talk about disinformation.
Anyway, OP, fantastic post. And hey, it's quite obvious why Marc Jacobs has called his new IP, Camelot UNCHAINED...considering Dark Age of Camelot was bought out by EA so it could be cast aside and swept under a rug. "If you can't beat them, buy them."
I am hoping ESO and a few other titles will pressure the industry to raise the bar. As of right now - there's a plethora of players that have ZERO idea what Dark Age brought to a blind industry.
On Facebook, there was a post about GW2 - last year during the "spam of awesomeness" phase, shortly before the, "this is just another E-Sport, phase. I got a reply to a DAoC statement where the person stated, "yeah right, 44 classes and 24 races, what have you been smoking?"
I laughed...and then thought how sad it was that this person honestly couldn't believe this sort of thing was possible. The industry has shamed itself - I certainly hope a few upcoming titles paradigm shift the entirety of the crapfest people have been force fed for years.