I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
UO peaked out at 250k
EVE currently 500k,
EQ 450k+
Asherons call 120k
DAoC 250k
Final Fantasy XI 500k+
Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide
Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide
SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted. Don't say anything about Lineage 1 or 2 worldwide either because if you neglect that then you certainly have to neglect the 6 million that WoW has in China. Its not like these people died or just disappeared so is their a market for the more hardcore? Even if only a third of that number played the game it would still be more popular than the second most popular themepark game, so I would say yes. Not to mention the new crowd isn't all going to be in the new kids crowd; there are going to be people that play the games like WoW and want more and realize they really do want something akin to the old school.
It is also tiring seeing people gauge a Companies success off of a games sub number. It doesn't work that way. If a game is pulling profit after 3+ years it is a success; it doesn't matter if they have 120 subs or 120k subs, from a business standpoint it was a success.
You're wrong on so many levels, you're making assumptions that you cannot back up.
1. You're assuming that none of the people who played any of those games ever played any of the other games, thus it's 4.7 million individual players. That's an absurd assumption. Most people have moved on and played many other games and thus, even 50% of your claimed figure is high, but we'll go with it.
2. You're assuming that all of those players are still playing MMOs and still want to play the same kind of games they did back in the day. That's extremely unlikely, given the number of old-school players here that are more happy with the modern face of MMOs. Even if we give you a 50% figure, which is excessive, you're left with 1,175,000 individual players who both enjoyed old-school MMOs, still play and still want to play that style of game. That's not much in the scheme of things, especially since you'd be unlikely to find a large group of those who could agree on what game they want to play.
There just isn't a marketplace for old-school games that can compete with mainstream MMOs. Sorry, deal with the facts.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
Didn't companies already stop marketing to core players by plastering "free to play" all over their ads?
Oh, i am already enjoying the market. I don't think whether core players exist affect me at all. It is not like i am socializing with them or anything.
Except core gamers are responsible for about 90% of the revenue from all gaming.
That's alot of money out there. If the makers of mmorpgs don't want it, others will happily cater to them.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
I just don't understand this thinking though. I'm not spending any money by waiting for a great sandbox. I do give my money to companies that serve my interests. I do watch Breaking Bad, play SC2, etc. I just don't understand why it's bad or wrong to voice my opinion so companies can get a sense that there are people who will play sandbox games.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You couldn't be more wrong. I get tired of seeing the misconception that the old school players are no longer there or a viable target audience; its a seriously weak argument. The old school players didn't just up and disappear and the collective of the old school games
UO peaked out at 250k
EVE currently 500k,
EQ 450k+
Asherons call 120k
DAoC 250k
Final Fantasy XI 500k+
Lineage 1.. 1.4million worldwide
Lineage 2... 1.3million worldwide
SWG 1 million boxes sold, no idea on sub numbers
Thats 4.7million people without taking into account SWG because I don't know where it was in subscriber numbers, or some of the other games unlisted. Don't say anything about Lineage 1 or 2 worldwide either because if you neglect that then you certainly have to neglect the 6 million that WoW has in China. Its not like these people died or just disappeared so is their a market for the more hardcore? Even if only a third of that number played the game it would still be more popular than the second most popular themepark game, so I would say yes. Not to mention the new crowd isn't all going to be in the new kids crowd; there are going to be people that play the games like WoW and want more and realize they really do want something akin to the old school.
It is also tiring seeing people gauge a Companies success off of a games sub number. It doesn't work that way. If a game is pulling profit after 3+ years it is a success; it doesn't matter if they have 120 subs or 120k subs, from a business standpoint it was a success.
You're wrong on so many levels, you're making assumptions that you cannot back up.
1. You're assuming that none of the people who played any of those games ever played any of the other games, thus it's 4.7 million individual players. That's an absurd assumption. Most people have moved on and played many other games and thus, even 50% of your claimed figure is high, but we'll go with it.
2. You're assuming that all of those players are still playing MMOs and still want to play the same kind of games they did back in the day. That's extremely unlikely, given the number of old-school players here that are more happy with the modern face of MMOs. Even if we give you a 50% figure, which is excessive, you're left with 1,175,000 individual players who both enjoyed old-school MMOs, still play and still want to play that style of game. That's not much in the scheme of things, especially since you'd be unlikely to find a large group of those who could agree on what game they want to play.
There just isn't a marketplace for old-school games that can compete with mainstream MMOs. Sorry, deal with the facts.
It seems to me that it's an assumption that those people LEFT the industry, not that they're still in it. Especially since you can "leave" an industry and come back if there are games that suit your preferences.
And what "facts" are you talking about when you say that "old-school" games can't compete with mainstream MMOs? There are games in production that very much seem to be what a lot of us want. Not to mention EVE is at the same level of sandbox that a lot of us want, it's just not our type of game.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
Didn't companies already stop marketing to core players by plastering "free to play" all over their ads?
Oh, i am already enjoying the market. I don't think whether core players exist affect me at all. It is not like i am socializing with them or anything.
Except core gamers are responsible for about 90% of the revenue from all gaming.
That's alot of money out there. If the makers of mmorpgs don't want it, others will happily cater to them.
No, I'd have to disagree and say the bulk of the revenue for all gaming comes from the "tourist" market, the more casual gamers who spread their entertainment dollars around far and wide.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
I just don't understand this thinking though. I'm not spending any money by waiting for a great sandbox. I do give my money to companies that serve my interests. I do watch Breaking Bad, play SC2, etc. I just don't understand why it's bad or wrong to voice my opinion so companies can get a sense that there are people who will play sandbox games.
It isn't bad or wrong. They aren't going to make it though.
Just as long as you realize the only thing left for those that are no longer satisfied is searching game after game. That's the model for the industry. Game hoppers were created.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
Good idea, maybe then all the old-school whiners will just go away and play D&D and leave the rest of us alone.
That's the right attitude.
Just stop following them when D&D turns into a huge party, ok?
But they're going to Netflix and HBO and companies who cater to them with big budgets. They love our money and there's so much of it.
Gaming we get from indies and fellow gamer's mods. We will still be entertained. We aren't losing much.
MMORPG makers just have to find others to fund their business models.
They already did. Casuals and whales.
Great. So core gamers can take their money elsewhere now. We agree.
If these companies would stop marketing to people they no longer want or need, then it would be easier to inform people of such a reality.
I think with all the help you're providing, this can be done pretty easily. Then you guys can just enjoy the market in peace.
Didn't companies already stop marketing to core players by plastering "free to play" all over their ads?
Oh, i am already enjoying the market. I don't think whether core players exist affect me at all. It is not like i am socializing with them or anything.
Except core gamers are responsible for about 90% of the revenue from all gaming.
That's alot of money out there. If the makers of mmorpgs don't want it, others will happily cater to them.
No, I'd have to disagree and say the bulk of the revenue for all gaming comes from the "tourist" market, the more casual gamers who spread their entertainment dollars around far and wide.
Casual content is about 10% of revenue. If that makes it more clear.
It's the core games still making the money. I know a lot of casual gamers, none of them spend a dime unless "we" get them to.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
I just don't understand this thinking though. I'm not spending any money by waiting for a great sandbox. I do give my money to companies that serve my interests. I do watch Breaking Bad, play SC2, etc. I just don't understand why it's bad or wrong to voice my opinion so companies can get a sense that there are people who will play sandbox games.
It isn't bad or wrong. They aren't going to make it though.
Just as long as you realize the only thing left for those that are no longer satisfied is searching game after game. That's the model for the industry. Game hoppers were created.
Well I'd be lying if I said my patience wasn't running thin, but there are definitely some promising games on the horizon. Chief among them for me is The Repopulation. If it delivers in its goals (and it seems to be), then it will be more than satisfactory for me.
Are you saying you think music, TV and 'all kinds of art', is of a higher quality now? Uh, I'll give you TV? Not sure if serious. Theres more though, sure.
Yes. Homeland, Games of Throne, even Arrow. Quality of tv is pretty high.
Who talks about how great TV is right now and DOESN'T mention Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood?
Right. It's getting better and better.
Give money to companies who entertain you and leave the ones that don't behind. The mmorpg makers are not going to cater to us anymore.
I just don't understand this thinking though. I'm not spending any money by waiting for a great sandbox. I do give my money to companies that serve my interests. I do watch Breaking Bad, play SC2, etc. I just don't understand why it's bad or wrong to voice my opinion so companies can get a sense that there are people who will play sandbox games.
It isn't bad or wrong. They aren't going to make it though.
Just as long as you realize the only thing left for those that are no longer satisfied is searching game after game. That's the model for the industry. Game hoppers were created.
Well I'd be lying if I said my patience wasn't running thin, but there are definitely some promising games on the horizon. Chief among them for me is The Repopulation. If it delivers in its goals (and it seems to be), then it will be more than satisfactory for me.
There will always be games on the horizon. You'd probably move along due to lack of interest if there weren't.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
The market isn't confused. The market sees two groups (one huge, one tiny) both of which will give them money if the developer creates a game suited to them. Big surprise that they choose the larger group, satisfying more players and earning more money.
The primary confusion is if players want big-budget games created for niche-sized audiences.
Game budgets fit audience size. You can find plenty of niche-targeted indie games, but they're going to have niche-sized budgets (which rules out many forms of MMOs.)
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
Well I'd be lying if I said my patience wasn't running thin, but there are definitely some promising games on the horizon. Chief among them for me is The Repopulation. If it delivers in its goals (and it seems to be), then it will be more than satisfactory for me.
There will always be games on the horizon. You'd probably move along due to lack of interest if there weren't.
I can't think of a time when there was as much of a "sandbox" presence in upcoming games. But like I said, "move along" doesn't really mean much. I'm not spending money by watching the industry. If The Repopulation ends up being a dud, I won't play it; if it's good, I will play it.
I started with Meridian 59 where lag was rampant with dial ups and you feared your family would pull the plug at the wrong time causing you to die and lose your gear/health point. They also had the patching server as part of the main server so patch day you could not play at all.
OP - will say Asherons Call had some problems.
- Discovering the spells for yourself was nice till people posted them on websites for others to find.
- The whole guild thing was ruined by you not doing work because everyone below you was giving you xp. So there was rush for people to invite others just so they could get on the xp train. Didn't like that idea, though I guess that was something back then where the king became lazy and fat from others doing the work for him.
- Fighting over mobs or that sweet spot to safely kill them since some spots they could not reach you as you used arrows or spells.
- Grouping wasn't something people were looking for at times, since you could solo almost anything, was a shame.
- It was a fun game, just with a few problems, though what MMO doesn't have some kind of problem.
Dark Age of Camelot was fun to play just time and fan based destroyed it when RvRvR grew to high in levels and gear for new players to participate effectively to where they had to open new servers for them.
Star Wars Galaxies - lost to Sony, had a blast being a combat medic and trying to become a Jedi. Love the fact you had to work for it, may try to find a free server for this.
I do miss the old days of MMO"s I will say once they became popular (maybe it was with WoW that this started officially) they have changed, with the new crowds and generations of players. Found it very silly how some people are blaming the old generations of MMO's players for how the new ones act.
Well I'd be lying if I said my patience wasn't running thin, but there are definitely some promising games on the horizon. Chief among them for me is The Repopulation. If it delivers in its goals (and it seems to be), then it will be more than satisfactory for me.
There will always be games on the horizon. You'd probably move along due to lack of interest if there weren't.
I can't think of a time when there was as much of a "sandbox" presence in upcoming games. But like I said, "move along" doesn't really mean much. I'm not spending money by watching the industry. If The Repopulation ends up being a dud, I won't play it; if it's good, I will play it.
Well, that's perfectly fine, then give your money and attention to those that do.
It's time people gave up on the big boys. There is no doubt they don't want our money anymore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
Well, that's perfectly fine, then give your money and attention to those that do.
It's time people gave up on the big boys. There is no doubt they don't want our money anymore.
"Our money"? You don't speak for me.
Clearly the big boys want my play-time. Otherwise why would I even be here talking about MMORGPs? They may not want my money though. Otherwise, why would they beg me to play for free?
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
Yes, it's a free market, but that doesn't make it ok to go with inferior products with flash and bang and nothing else.
Well, that's perfectly fine, then give your money and attention to those that do.
It's time people gave up on the big boys. There is no doubt they don't want our money anymore.
"Our money"? You don't speak for me.
Clearly the big boys want my play-time. Otherwise why would I even be here talking about MMORGPs? They may not want my money though. Otherwise, why would they beg me to play for free?
That's exactly what Im saying. We are in total agreement.
Im referring to those that are no longer satisfied with mmorpgs but used to love them, including myself, when I say "our' money.
I think you would even agree that mmorpg makers no longer want that audience or their money.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
I've pointed this out to you guys before and yet you still bring it up like it means something. Saying "it's a free market" is not a response. It's wind. Nobody is saying that these companies should be forced to make the games we want. Part of a free market is people speaking out in favor of their preferences and against companies that offer inferior products, that's what we're doing.
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
I've pointed this out to you guys before and yet you still bring it up like it means something. Saying "it's a free market" is not a response. It's wind. Nobody is saying that these companies should be forced to make the games we want. Part of a free market is people speaking out in favor of their preferences and against companies that offer inferior products, that's what we're doing.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, nothing changes if no one ever tries to make it change. If the "majority" had their choice, women would still be chattel. The minority pushed it and eventually they won. Its the same thing here.
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
I've pointed this out to you guys before and yet you still bring it up like it means something. Saying "it's a free market" is not a response. It's wind. Nobody is saying that these companies should be forced to make the games we want. Part of a free market is people speaking out in favor of their preferences and against companies that offer inferior products, that's what we're doing.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, nothing changes if no one ever tries to make it change. If the "majority" had their choice, women would still be chattel. The minority pushed it and eventually they won. Its the same thing here.
If their argument were valid, no market would ever change. And if that were true, we'd still be playing sandbox games.
It seems to me that it's an assumption that those people LEFT the industry, not that they're still in it. Especially since you can "leave" an industry and come back if there are games that suit your preferences.
You can't do that if you're dead, of course. Besides, people's tastes change all the time, people stop doing things all the time and never come back to it. People run out of time to play games that take up too much time, which is exactly the kind of games that we're talking about here. The number of people who started playing in 1999 and are still playing the same kind of games today are going to be very low, people grow up, people get lives, people have families and jobs, they just don't have time to stare at a computer screen for 18 hours a day.
And what "facts" are you talking about when you say that "old-school" games can't compete with mainstream MMOs? There are games in production that very much seem to be what a lot of us want. Not to mention EVE is at the same level of sandbox that a lot of us want, it's just not our type of game.
If there were enough people who wanted those kinds of games, they'd be making those kinds of games. They're not. I predict that those games that people think are going to be great will hit the market, people will turn on them immediately and they'll fade away. That's the cycle around here, nobody is ever happy with what actually comes out, just with their fantasy of what might come out someday.
Let me know when those games are actually on the market and are stable and successful. I don't think that day will ever come.
There will always be games on the horizon. You'd probably move along due to lack of interest if there weren't.
True, but the cycle is always the same. Some people look at something on the horizon, declare that it will be the best game ever, it comes out, they decide it sucks, scream and cry about how bad it is and identify a new game on the horizon to be the best game ever.
It seems to me that it's an assumption that those people LEFT the industry, not that they're still in it. Especially since you can "leave" an industry and come back if there are games that suit your preferences.
You can't do that if you're dead, of course. Besides, people's tastes change all the time, people stop doing things all the time and never come back to it. People run out of time to play games that take up too much time, which is exactly the kind of games that we're talking about here. The number of people who started playing in 1999 and are still playing the same kind of games today are going to be very low, people grow up, people get lives, people have families and jobs, they just don't have time to stare at a computer screen for 18 hours a day.
Yeah all I'm hearing are more and more assumptions. Some of those people may changed their preferences, sure. But everybody I know who grew up playing UO, Shadowbane, etc, still hold those same views about what makes a game good. I'm sure there are those who have changed their views, just as I'm sure there are people who have grown sick of themeparks and would very much enjoy a sandbox if somebody were to make one.
And what "facts" are you talking about when you say that "old-school" games can't compete with mainstream MMOs? There are games in production that very much seem to be what a lot of us want. Not to mention EVE is at the same level of sandbox that a lot of us want, it's just not our type of game.
If there were enough people who wanted those kinds of games, they'd be making those kinds of games. They're not. I predict that those games that people think are going to be great will hit the market, people will turn on them immediately and they'll fade away. That's the cycle around here, nobody is ever happy with what actually comes out, just with their fantasy of what might come out someday.
Let me know when those games are actually on the market and are stable and successful. I don't think that day will ever come.
That's the cycle here because we're being fed shallow clones. But again, I'll ask... what facts are you talking about? You said they can't compete with mainstream MMOs. What makes you say that? Very few have been tried, and basically none have been done well. Your "facts" seem to have turned into your personal opinion that the games that are on the horizon will fail.
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You don't seem to have gotten it right.
Businesses invest in product development relative to perceived upside: Products with big audiences receive big budgets (and vice-versa.) This doesn't mean niche products aren't made, only that they will inevitably have smaller budgets (small audience = small budget.)
After those products are created, the one I "take" is the product which is most closely aligned with my own interests.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
You don't seem to have gotten it right.
Businesses invest in product development relative to perceived upside: Products with big audiences receive big budgets (and vice-versa.) This doesn't mean niche products aren't made, only that they will inevitably have smaller budgets (small audience = small budget.)
After those products are created, the one I "take" is the product which is most closely aligned with my own interests.
There is a large enough audience for several big budget old school games. Sometimes companies all agree not to target one audience but to share another.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Comments
You're wrong on so many levels, you're making assumptions that you cannot back up.
1. You're assuming that none of the people who played any of those games ever played any of the other games, thus it's 4.7 million individual players. That's an absurd assumption. Most people have moved on and played many other games and thus, even 50% of your claimed figure is high, but we'll go with it.
2. You're assuming that all of those players are still playing MMOs and still want to play the same kind of games they did back in the day. That's extremely unlikely, given the number of old-school players here that are more happy with the modern face of MMOs. Even if we give you a 50% figure, which is excessive, you're left with 1,175,000 individual players who both enjoyed old-school MMOs, still play and still want to play that style of game. That's not much in the scheme of things, especially since you'd be unlikely to find a large group of those who could agree on what game they want to play.
There just isn't a marketplace for old-school games that can compete with mainstream MMOs. Sorry, deal with the facts.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Except core gamers are responsible for about 90% of the revenue from all gaming.
That's alot of money out there. If the makers of mmorpgs don't want it, others will happily cater to them.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I just don't understand this thinking though. I'm not spending any money by waiting for a great sandbox. I do give my money to companies that serve my interests. I do watch Breaking Bad, play SC2, etc. I just don't understand why it's bad or wrong to voice my opinion so companies can get a sense that there are people who will play sandbox games.
It seems to me that it's an assumption that those people LEFT the industry, not that they're still in it. Especially since you can "leave" an industry and come back if there are games that suit your preferences.
And what "facts" are you talking about when you say that "old-school" games can't compete with mainstream MMOs? There are games in production that very much seem to be what a lot of us want. Not to mention EVE is at the same level of sandbox that a lot of us want, it's just not our type of game.
No, I'd have to disagree and say the bulk of the revenue for all gaming comes from the "tourist" market, the more casual gamers who spread their entertainment dollars around far and wide.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It isn't bad or wrong. They aren't going to make it though.
Just as long as you realize the only thing left for those that are no longer satisfied is searching game after game. That's the model for the industry. Game hoppers were created.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Casual content is about 10% of revenue. If that makes it more clear.
It's the core games still making the money. I know a lot of casual gamers, none of them spend a dime unless "we" get them to.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Well I'd be lying if I said my patience wasn't running thin, but there are definitely some promising games on the horizon. Chief among them for me is The Repopulation. If it delivers in its goals (and it seems to be), then it will be more than satisfactory for me.
There will always be games on the horizon. You'd probably move along due to lack of interest if there weren't.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So let me get this right... you will take anything handed to you, no matter how bad, because its popular? Well, I guess that explains why Lindsey Lohan and Miley Cyrus are in the news then. Makes me sad for the human race. It also explains why other countries are surpassing this one in every way but money.
I can't think of a time when there was as much of a "sandbox" presence in upcoming games. But like I said, "move along" doesn't really mean much. I'm not spending money by watching the industry. If The Repopulation ends up being a dud, I won't play it; if it's good, I will play it.
I started with Meridian 59 where lag was rampant with dial ups and you feared your family would pull the plug at the wrong time causing you to die and lose your gear/health point. They also had the patching server as part of the main server so patch day you could not play at all.
OP - will say Asherons Call had some problems.
- Discovering the spells for yourself was nice till people posted them on websites for others to find.
- The whole guild thing was ruined by you not doing work because everyone below you was giving you xp. So there was rush for people to invite others just so they could get on the xp train. Didn't like that idea, though I guess that was something back then where the king became lazy and fat from others doing the work for him.
- Fighting over mobs or that sweet spot to safely kill them since some spots they could not reach you as you used arrows or spells.
- Grouping wasn't something people were looking for at times, since you could solo almost anything, was a shame.
- It was a fun game, just with a few problems, though what MMO doesn't have some kind of problem.
Dark Age of Camelot was fun to play just time and fan based destroyed it when RvRvR grew to high in levels and gear for new players to participate effectively to where they had to open new servers for them.
Star Wars Galaxies - lost to Sony, had a blast being a combat medic and trying to become a Jedi. Love the fact you had to work for it, may try to find a free server for this.
I do miss the old days of MMO"s I will say once they became popular (maybe it was with WoW that this started officially) they have changed, with the new crowds and generations of players. Found it very silly how some people are blaming the old generations of MMO's players for how the new ones act.
Well, that's perfectly fine, then give your money and attention to those that do.
It's time people gave up on the big boys. There is no doubt they don't want our money anymore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You are confused between what you don't like and "bad". How about Avengers? Is it bad? It made $1.5B.
What is "sad" are those who expect the world owe them games they like. Well, no one owes you anything. It is a free market. Devs are free to go after any audience, and you are free to play (or not play) any game.
"Our money"? You don't speak for me.
Clearly the big boys want my play-time. Otherwise why would I even be here talking about MMORGPs? They may not want my money though. Otherwise, why would they beg me to play for free?
Yes, it's a free market, but that doesn't make it ok to go with inferior products with flash and bang and nothing else.
That's exactly what Im saying. We are in total agreement.
Im referring to those that are no longer satisfied with mmorpgs but used to love them, including myself, when I say "our' money.
I think you would even agree that mmorpg makers no longer want that audience or their money.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I've pointed this out to you guys before and yet you still bring it up like it means something. Saying "it's a free market" is not a response. It's wind. Nobody is saying that these companies should be forced to make the games we want. Part of a free market is people speaking out in favor of their preferences and against companies that offer inferior products, that's what we're doing.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, nothing changes if no one ever tries to make it change. If the "majority" had their choice, women would still be chattel. The minority pushed it and eventually they won. Its the same thing here.
If their argument were valid, no market would ever change. And if that were true, we'd still be playing sandbox games.
You can't do that if you're dead, of course. Besides, people's tastes change all the time, people stop doing things all the time and never come back to it. People run out of time to play games that take up too much time, which is exactly the kind of games that we're talking about here. The number of people who started playing in 1999 and are still playing the same kind of games today are going to be very low, people grow up, people get lives, people have families and jobs, they just don't have time to stare at a computer screen for 18 hours a day.
If there were enough people who wanted those kinds of games, they'd be making those kinds of games. They're not. I predict that those games that people think are going to be great will hit the market, people will turn on them immediately and they'll fade away. That's the cycle around here, nobody is ever happy with what actually comes out, just with their fantasy of what might come out someday.
Let me know when those games are actually on the market and are stable and successful. I don't think that day will ever come.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
True, but the cycle is always the same. Some people look at something on the horizon, declare that it will be the best game ever, it comes out, they decide it sucks, scream and cry about how bad it is and identify a new game on the horizon to be the best game ever.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeah all I'm hearing are more and more assumptions. Some of those people may changed their preferences, sure. But everybody I know who grew up playing UO, Shadowbane, etc, still hold those same views about what makes a game good. I'm sure there are those who have changed their views, just as I'm sure there are people who have grown sick of themeparks and would very much enjoy a sandbox if somebody were to make one.
That's the cycle here because we're being fed shallow clones. But again, I'll ask... what facts are you talking about? You said they can't compete with mainstream MMOs. What makes you say that? Very few have been tried, and basically none have been done well. Your "facts" seem to have turned into your personal opinion that the games that are on the horizon will fail.
You don't seem to have gotten it right.
Businesses invest in product development relative to perceived upside: Products with big audiences receive big budgets (and vice-versa.) This doesn't mean niche products aren't made, only that they will inevitably have smaller budgets (small audience = small budget.)
After those products are created, the one I "take" is the product which is most closely aligned with my own interests.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There is a large enough audience for several big budget old school games. Sometimes companies all agree not to target one audience but to share another.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"