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Crafter trade offs in shared skill pool

anemoanemo Posts: 978Member Uncommon

So the general idea is to have a limited skill pool.   To simplify the concept lets give players 500 points if they want to pick up an ability they're going to have to spend 5 to 50 points for that ability.   Abilities vary from:  New crafting ability, new combat ability, easier to get things from NPCs, and similar.   

to allow for some easier balance and familiarity there are some traditional skill trees/ability trees that players advance through.   The starting node costing the 50 points, and branching further around/down the tree costing 5-20 points.   With no limits for how many/few starting nodes you can choose, how far you want to delve into trees, or which trees you can combine. 

The largest concept that I want to discuss is the fact that it's a completely shared pool between combat/crafting abilities.   And how to balance it so that it's interesting, has trade offs, and fun.

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some stats:   Crafted items a baseline:  1.0 power.   Random loot drops: .8 of crafted items.   Epic/ancient/story/raid items:  1.5 of crafted items.   Crafted item in hands of maxed out crafter: 1.5 - 3.0 of baseline.  Well crafted item in hands of combat character: 1.0 to 1.3 of baseline.   Epic item in hands of maxed out crafter: 1.5 of baseline.    Essentially refering to the "power tier" or advantage of the item itself but in isolation not taking into account the abilities of a character, team, or similar.

What a character gets out of combat skill trees:   New abilities pretty much identical to what is seen in normal MMOs, and ways to modify their abilities as they advance around/down the skill tree.  The only real differance is that the tree will be the only way to get non-basic abilities, and there being more ways than typical to modify them.

What a character gets out of crafting sill trees:  Initially the ability to craft the item, then as they progress down the the tree they gain the ability to spend time to tinker the stats(where well crafted items become 1.0 to 1.3 power by min maxing).    Also as they advance down the line there are some optional some not where they will modify an items stats while holding it,  Essentially removing negatives and/or amplifying positives.    Which is where with proper tinkering a crafter can end up with an item 3.0 of the baseline(double the raw power of an epic item).

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End results and goals from this

Pure crafter:  gets some pretty large rewards by applying their trade.   But they're going to be using baseline abilities which means no form of crowd control, and no means of really changing the tides of battle.   Essentially aside from basic intuition of knowing when to defend, or attack the fate of the battle isn't in your hands "you have no Aces".   But you'll have a large static tank built, some nice raw damage as well.

Pure combatant:  Get some pretty large rewards by having all sorts of tricks.   Sure you won't have the raw static tank, or brute force of attacks.   But you'll be able to temporally buff yourself/allies, have some active tanking abilities like shields/damage sharing,  have some healing abilities, have access to CC, and similar.   If you play "perfectly" the pure crafter will be alive for a long while but the battle will eventually fall in your favor.  However the pure crafter will have far fewer mistake that they're capable of making, meaning it won't be a sure and easy fight.

Mixed:  the person decided they like a particular type of item/stat/skill so focuses on ways to get them better through crafting trees.   They won't have as many ways to change the flow and pace of a fight, but when the fight is in their favor they hit(defend/heal/whatever) very hard.   Essentially this is where it comes down to the player becoming closer to a "class" that focuses on particular aspects.

Note:  any crafted item will get the bonuses rather than just self crafted items.   All items(even epics) have decay attached to them, meaning that even pure combat people will use crafted items for simple battles.

Note:  Tinkering is something that is meant to be able to be done indefinitely, though eventually the player will just fall into cycles where they just undo old work for a change and similar.   However tinkering skill/leveling/whatever advancement is still better than "new item creation" even if they are just retreading old ground.   Item spam is silly.

Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

Comments

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare
    UO

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • anemoanemo Posts: 978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    UO

    You're now realizing my problem.   There is only one notable game with a limited and shared pool.  

    I did not particularly like in UO how crafters normally ended turning into to prey to a min/maxed PvPer character.   Essentially I'm attempting a design that brings a few favors for crafters, or PvPers that have to drop out of only min/maxing towards combat ability/abilities(sure they'll still do it dipping into crafting skills, however to do so they will have to bring less utility).   

    Every other game I can think of has "infinite progression", splits crafting, and similar.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare
    Originally posted by anemo
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    UO

    You're now realizing my problem.   There is only one notable game with a limited and shared pool.  

    I did not particularly like in UO how crafters normally ended turning into to prey to a min/maxed PvPer character.  

    If your specialized bakers aren't dying to min/max'd PVP characters then your entire limited skill system is useless. There's no shortage of this system, as there's no quantifiable desire for it. It allows players to make mistakes.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • anemoanemo Posts: 978Member Uncommon

    The point of the system above is to make crafting "Not a Mistake" if you end up in a fight.  

    The goal of the system is that if someone wants to min/max a combat style that they will pick up a crafting skill or two to amplify their goal(damage/tank/healing/whatever), since with the right crafting skill you'll essentially end up with items 2x better than an epic item.  Which means that if that item type is where you get 70% of a stat you need, the end effect is closer to 3x effectiveness at the trade off of fewer combat tricks.   Should have been more clear about this I suppose.

    I discussed to two edge cases of a pure crafter/combant due to the fact that they would end up being the strangest edge cases.   Essentially a combatant would have 3/4ths of the skills from the entire game(instead of 5 to 8 of a mixed player) but with very little amplification, where as a crafter would would have the raw stats with very few ways to make mistakes.

    _________

    If I'm posting here it's pretty obvious I don't much care about attempting to "compete" in the market.  So while "there is no demand" is a very valid arguement, it's kind of an empty one on the "dream build" forum.  

    I do greatly appreciate your comment about the system making it too easy to make mistakes in builds though.  One I'd have to agree with, but have no solutions for.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,419Member Uncommon

    build reliable escape abilities into crafting trees. crafters can survive, but are less likely to win.

    they need to be at the top of the tree though so others can't use them.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

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