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I have no issue with massive PVP. I just want there to be a meter of success other than number of players. I want it to take 100 players an hour to cap a keep instead of four minutes. I want to have a chance to stop them. I want to be rewarded for standing around some Po-dunk lumber camp trying to keep the supplies flowing and keep 2 rouges from capping it.
There is nothing wrong with the zerg, hell you should NEED the zerg if yourt trying to take something big, but the game shouldn't be two groups of 200 players running around capping all the points without stopping to ever defend anything. I'd much rather see 10 groups of 30 people spread out in small fights than 300v300 idiot fest where no one has any idea what is happening.
That's not saying there isn't a time and a place for a 300v300 fight, but it should be a rare ocurence not the norm.
Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Iselin The only situation where a zerg can't happen is in instances with a small number of players. In any kind of open world environment - PVP or PVE - a mindless zerg with no strategy is an option for people who want to do it that way. So... I'm going to assume that anyone using the term in a disdainful way is a 5-man, scripted dungeon instance aficionado. Some people enjoy choreographed folk dancing with memorized steps, others just like to dance.
Yeah, I've never seen large group pvp that couldn't devolve into a zergball. Sometimes steamrolling a map in a zergball is fun and it's sort of cool when large scale combat gets out of control.
I prefer small to medium group sized skirmishes mostly, but zerging has it's place. A really good pvp system, in my opinion of course, will have stategy and tactics options that can stop a zergball in its tracks, or possibilities for smaller groups to harass or disrupt the zerg. For Aiur.
Not to mention developers making defense an attractive option that gives you the same or even better rewards (points or whatever) than attacking.
That was WAR's main problem: it was much more rewarding to take a keep than to defend one. This led to the inevitable "keep flipping" where two zergs would avoid each other, take a keep and promptly abandon it
Yeah, good point about the flipping. LotRO had (has?) this problem with their pvp map. They wanted to give players incentive to skirmish over keeps instead of zergball rolling all over the map, but they only gave incentive really for flipping the keeps, not defending them. LotRO's not a good pvp example, but the situation was the same there.
There needs to be an incentive for each faction to gain and hold and hold an area. Then that needs to be implemented in such a way that zergs will be a much less efficient or undesirable method of accomplishing that. Players still might zergball the field, but they won't be progressing as much as idling.
Originally posted by Vinterkrig Originally posted by khartokhar3 i hope developers never listen to the whiners. rvr games should always have zerging. love it when big zergs fight each other. those fights are epic. bgs and arenas are for solo or group pvp.
I'm fine with zergs if there are ways to counter zergs, like old school DAOC.. GW2 is the biggest pile thanks to its aoe spamming zergfest full of no skill casuals.
My experience with RvR was WAR and it is the game I think everyone (developers and fans) need to look at more than DAoC. Camelot gives us the example of how to do RvR, but WAR provides a mile-long list of mistakes that need to be avoided. The big one, is the idea that warbands should only be countered by other warbands. While Mythic never voiced this opinion, their class balance history strongly indicates it. They developed a phobia of AoE damage and silently pushed for small teams to rely on ST "melee-trains" rather than "bombing". This directly lead to the dominance of zergs. It was only when the population began to drastically drop (and thus the zerg sizes) that small groups could "melee train" down a zerg, but still only under ideal circumstances (ambush, hit all priority targets, and wipe them within a small time frame).
Zergs are not a bad thing when there are ways to deal with them, and not all large forces are zergs (meaning, don't cry zerg if they appear to have more than you). The idea of RvR is to have these large fights and they are fucking epic. So many great memories in WAR with them.
IMO zerging is inevitable in any game, even if the objectives are scattered and balanced players seem to still prefer running in a large group to zerg train objectives. Maybe because it feels more safe, more epic, or more efficient.
That said, zerging is ok! It should be expected in uncapped or high cap player vs player settings because that is pretty much what warfare was about, whoever can field the most troops that were the least incompetent, with comparable wargear. That is until it became too easy for a few people to kill lots of people with mass killing weapons.
My advice if players want to avoid zerg warfare they should stick with instanced and player capped PVP or make a small party and roam around openworld doing the smallest scale objectives while intentionally avoiding any friendly zergs.
PVP in MMOs in one pic:
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by Elikal PVP in MMOs in one pic:
That's a dumb picture, cause there's nothing mediocre about a mongoose. 1v1 they usually rape snakes. Didn't you ever read Rikki Tikki Tavi?
The problem with zergs has been extensively discussed on the ESOL forums. When the concern over ESOL being like GW2 the companies response was that they were very well aware of the issue and were building features into the war area do directly work against that.These include
-huge area.....so very difficult for a zerg to quickly go from point to point
-choke points where a small force can constrain a zerg
-significant rewards for successful defense
and other things they weren't willing to reveal.
all we can do is wait and see what is actually implemented.
(Quoting from Iselin's post)
These things which make ESO work are already available in a game like Champions of Regnum? Or even Aika Online or Aion will have them (Aion less because Aion has an infinite gear grind). For this reason, I'm hesitant to be a huge supporter of ESO, except maybe for better gfx.
1. You always play with the same people.. more or less: Same with Champions of Regnum. You really do end up knowing all your realm-mates , and in fact get to know your enemies as well. Though personally I prefer a game where I am not restricted to one realm.
2. Complex planning and execution: This is definitely the case also with Champions of Regnum. With 3 realms, 2 forts and 1 castle in each realm, 9 relics and 6 realm gems, there is quite a deal of strategyu involved to getting all the realm gems and making the Dragon Wish. Usually takes weeks to realise this and meanwhile there are all the fort and bridge battles to contend with. Like ESO, Regnum already has diversionary raids, simple scouting/wandering and hunting-at-will decisions.
3. On the other side of it ... : Just like Regnum. Just yesterday we were involved in a strategic attack on the final relic prior to invasion, at a time when the other realm was also vulnerable. This was to split the decision in the attacking realm and try to hit them when they were indecisive as a realm.
4. No separate PvE PvP server: Yup regnum only has one server and it is a pvp server. there is some farming for gear, but its not worth farming forever even if you are at max level. The amount of bonuses you can get from gear is largely capped by the immense rarity of good gear. You can try if you want but the main determinant of pvp battles remains the player's skills instead of the gear.
5. Reward system : Yea, Regnum starts out with the reward of getting to higher levels, then of getting Warmaster status, then of getting RP (reputation point) score ranking. Man y of the players are veterans of 3+ yrs standing and they are all still enjoying working on their RP score ranking.
i still find it difficult to see what more ESO offers compared to regnum. But the ES franchise does looke nice so maybe it is the realm lore and eye-candy.
Originally posted by TheMaahes Originally posted by Vinterkrig Originally posted by khartokhar3 i hope developers never listen to the whiners. rvr games should always have zerging. love it when big zergs fight each other. those fights are epic. bgs and arenas are for solo or group pvp.
Zergs could be dropped by 8 , larger zergs by 16. My mid group dropped on top of a 60+ person zerg with our pbaoe group and smashed them within seconds. Our 8 man tank group could handle 24 ish often, sometimes more. We teamed up with a hib 8 man once and decimated a 80 large zerg.
There are plenty of videos of this kind of stuff still lingering around the internet. WAR pvp was full of crappy maps, crappy keeps and no incentive to fight at first. When I played people flipped empty keeps and avoided fighting. In DAOC it was ALL about the fight.
But zergs couldn't get massive RPs and get their realm ranks up because there is a depreciation in value on killing 8 players with 24 + . Any crowd control was basically going to get broken instantly by them and it was difficult for them to keep speed 6 up for everyone, or near impossible until the CTR artifact changed that. So small squads could hit and run easily and pick their fights.
Basically if you were more skilled and better coordinated, you could probably outdo your opposition. Fast forward to now, and games like GW2 and whatever other mindless crap that gets released, you don't even have to know what you are doing.. just follow an order and spam some buttons on top of the biggest pile of enemies to collect your "good job, always a winner" reward... and look, you can heal yourself too.. yaaaay.
There is no doubt this game will set its self up to succeed by making it easier for the casuals who rather drool on themselves them learn how to play a game properly, it's really a matter of how far they'll take it on if it'll be a zerg fest full of noobs or not.