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Figured out why it doesn't feel like WoW at all to me

BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

I've played WoW on and off for almost 9 years now. Played a LOT of other MMOs between then and now, and a bunch before WoW too.

FFXIV: ARR does not remind me of WoW, not at all really. It feels so, so much different.

I feel it is far, far less of a WoW clone than many give it credit for.

 

On combat, the game feels a lot more like a Final Fantasy game, especially a lot more like FFXI than it does WoW.

WoW, combat is much faster, you tab-target a mob and unleash your skills in quick succession, small GCD, plenty of instants, procs... movement is not overly important (except on some bosses in raids/dungeons) but very fluid and in that way it is a LOT like GW2 combat - it's obvious to me GW2 modeled their combat off of WoW.

ARR is a lot more deliberate. You target an enemy it feels a lot more like you are "locked" onto that one mob, like it was in FFXI. For the most part you are standing still trading blows back and forth like a turn based JRPG.

You even get a camera angle change to really focus on your target - definitely don't get that in WoW or such.

It's a nice touch (also from FFXI) if you lock onto a mob and strafe, you automatically move in a circle around the mob. Makes it easy to avoid direction attacks. This can be a disadvantage when you are trying to get out of a larger red AoE circle though, you generally have to un-target a mob to move away at full speed.

Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party. ARR feels the same way, much more limited choice of skills - but it makes your class choice more meaningful.

Also makes you rely on your party as you don't have all the answers to every situation on your toolbar, even with cross-class.

They definitely need more classes, but the ones in ARR feel very distinct.

 

On story and structure, I'd say ARR feels more like TSW or SWTOR on presentation than it does WoW. WoW, you get a text box pop up with some block of text to read. ARR is more like TSW or SWTOR where you get a few lines of conversational text, a real back and forth, and a zoom-in camera change with a cinematic flare and even some VO on the main story.

The fact the game forces you into party-only content to advance the main story is very different. SWTOR kind of did that with the first Flashpoint, but you had the option to skip it. FFXIV definitely knows it is a MMORPG and wants you to play with other people. "Solo to the cap" would be very, very hard stopping the main story at level 14/15 and you never would get access to mounts, Grand Companies, etc.

 

On progression, yes it looks like every Paladin will have the same "build" with the same optimal cross-class skills equipped. But I think ARR is designed so that it's not about YOU... it's not about your character and your build... it's about your team. Your party. The encounters are designed to challenge coordination and communications, not your button spam skills and whether or not you have the Elitest Jerks approved "optimal" build and setup.

 

I play this game and I don't see WoW. I don't feel WoW... and trust me, I know WoW.

I look at the MMO genre and the quote "failures" since 2004 - I see lots of games built on gimmicks, built on sameness and built on undelivered promises. Unfinished content, broken systems, bad design.

I think FFXIV is different. It's familiar and comfortable, but it is different. It's also polished and feels complete. Well, except for the server infrastructure!

Best way I can put it:

If WoW is to EQ.

FFXIV:ARR is to FFXI.

It's an update, a refinement, an evolution of an existing and proven model.

I think ARR looked to WoW for inspiration on what levels of convenience and accessibility players required, but looked to their own history on what to replicate and what to innovate on.

Anyways, just my 2c.

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Comments

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party. ARR feels the same way, much more limited choice of skills - but it makes your class choice more meaningful.

    Wrong. Maybe the Squenix abominations, but definitely not any Square games. Just look at the original Final Fantasy's magic list.

     

  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiPosts: 940Member Uncommon
    a person who is posting that many posts on site cares to talk about wow clones makes me sad.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by codifier
    [mod edit]

    Well one thing that is fresh (although not completely new XD) is the extensive crafting system. 8 crafting classes, 3 gathering classes. Major interdependecy between crafting classes; i.e. expect to get materials for your crafting class from 4-5 other crafting classes and 1 gathering class. 

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party. ARR feels the same way, much more limited choice of skills - but it makes your class choice more meaningful.

    Wrong. Maybe the Squenix abominations, but definitely not any Square games. Just look at the original Final Fantasy's magic list.

     

    So, are Cure1 cure2 cure3 cure4 different spells?  Life 1 Life 2? Harm 1 Harm2?

    Nope, different levels of spells.

     

    Just because the list looks long doesn't fill it with lots of different spells.

     

    (I did look at the link)

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by faxnadu
    a person who is posting that many posts on site cares to talk about wow clones makes me sad.

    Hey, just using the most popular and well known phrases and terms used on the site.

    You write for your audience.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by moosecatlol
    Originally posted by Four0Six
    Originally posted by moosecatlol
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party. ARR feels the same way, much more limited choice of skills - but it makes your class choice more meaningful.

    Wrong. Maybe the Squenix abominations, but definitely not any Square games. Just look at the original Final Fantasy's magic list.

    So, are Cure1 cure2 cure3 cure4 different spells?  Life 1 Life 2? Harm 1 Harm2?

    Nope, different levels of spells.

    Just because the list looks long doesn't fill it with lots of different spells.

    (I did look at the link)

    So you're confirming that there are more than 12 different spells in that list?

    FFXIV community; renowned for their intellect.

    If you count all the spells on that list, and take off the spell2 spell3 etc.

    And if you were to divide those abilities between the four different end game Casters in FFXIV, Summoner/Scholar/White Mage/Black Mage, and scatter a few to the magic-using classes like Bard/Paladin...

    You'd get about the same number of spells in the game. In fact...

    http://www.xivdb.com/?search/!filters/IlNLSUxMUzpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzE6QVNBX1dISVRFIE1BR0U6QVNBX1NLSUxMOkFPQV9BT0FMVkxfQU9BREVTQzoi

    http://www.xivdb.com/?search/!filters/IlNLSUxMUzpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzE6QVNBX0JMQUNLIE1BR0U6QVNBX1NLSUxMOkFPQV9BT0FMVkxfQU9BREVTQzoi

    http://www.xivdb.com/?search/!filters/IlNLSUxMUzpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzE6QVNBX1NVTU1PTkVSOkFTQV9TS0lMTDpBT0FfQU9BTFZMX0FPQURFU0M6Ig==

    http://www.xivdb.com/?search/!filters/IlNLSUxMUzpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzE6QVNBX1NDSE9MQVI6QVNBX1NLSUxMOkFPQV9BT0FMVkxfQU9BREVTQzoi

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    And that doesn't cover traits or cross class skill usage.

    So your entire point - is pointless.

    Just pointing that out.

    Get the point?

    Thanks for derailing the thread trying to knock SE and praise Square and point to 20 year old games.

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I've played WoW on and off for almost 9 years now. Played a LOT of other MMOs between then and now, and a bunch before WoW too.

    FFXIV: ARR does not remind me of WoW, not at all really. It feels so, so much different.

    I feel it is far, far less of a WoW clone than many give it credit for.

     

    On combat, the game feels a lot more like a Final Fantasy game, especially a lot more like FFXI than it does WoW.

    WoW, combat is much faster, you tab-target a mob and unleash your skills in quick succession, small GCD, plenty of instants, procs... movement is not overly important (except on some bosses in raids/dungeons) but very fluid and in that way it is a LOT like GW2 combat - it's obvious to me GW2 modeled their combat off of WoW.

    ARR is a lot more deliberate. You target an enemy it feels a lot more like you are "locked" onto that one mob, like it was in FFXI. For the most part you are standing still trading blows back and forth like a turn based JRPG.

    You even get a camera angle change to really focus on your target - definitely don't get that in WoW or such.

    It's a nice touch (also from FFXI) if you lock onto a mob and strafe, you automatically move in a circle around the mob. Makes it easy to avoid direction attacks. This can be a disadvantage when you are trying to get out of a larger red AoE circle though, you generally have to un-target a mob to move away at full speed.

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party. ARR feels the same way, much more limited choice of skills - but it makes your class choice more meaningful.

    Also makes you rely on your party as you don't have all the answers to every situation on your toolbar, even with cross-class.

    They definitely need more classes, but the ones in ARR feel very distinct.

     

    On story and structure, I'd say ARR feels more like TSW or SWTOR on presentation than it does WoW. WoW, you get a text box pop up with some block of text to read. ARR is more like TSW or SWTOR where you get a few lines of conversational text, a real back and forth, and a zoom-in camera change with a cinematic flare and even some VO on the main story.

    The fact the game forces you into party-only content to advance the main story is very different. SWTOR kind of did that with the first Flashpoint, but you had the option to skip it. FFXIV definitely knows it is a MMORPG and wants you to play with other people. "Solo to the cap" would be very, very hard stopping the main story at level 14/15 and you never would get access to mounts, Grand Companies, etc.

     

    On progression, yes it looks like every Paladin will have the same "build" with the same optimal cross-class skills equipped. But I think ARR is designed so that it's not about YOU... it's not about your character and your build... it's about your team. Your party. The encounters are designed to challenge coordination and communications, not your button spam skills and whether or not you have the Elitest Jerks approved "optimal" build and setup.

     

    I play this game and I don't see WoW. I don't feel WoW... and trust me, I know WoW.

    I look at the MMO genre and the quote "failures" since 2004 - I see lots of games built on gimmicks, built on sameness and built on undelivered promises. Unfinished content, broken systems, bad design.

    I think FFXIV is different. It's familiar and comfortable, but it is different. It's also polished and feels complete. Well, except for the server infrastructure!

    Best way I can put it:

    If WoW is to EQ.

    FFXIV:ARR is to FFXI.

    It's an update, a refinement, an evolution of an existing and proven model.

    I think ARR looked to WoW for inspiration on what levels of convenience and accessibility players required, but looked to their own history on what to replicate and what to innovate on.

    Anyways, just my 2c.

    I have to agree with you and I'm generally a very negative person when it comes to MMOs. Despite the obvious mechanical similiarties I find FF14 to feel somewhat fresh and I cannot describe why. Everything just flows together well.

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

    Yeah, 10+ years ago.

    I choose not to live in the past.

    The little differences MATTER. A lot.

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

    Yeah, 10+ years ago.

    I choose not to live in the past.

    The little differences MATTER. A lot.

    I also don't think it's a matter of really subtle differences. I think it's just a matter of a few ideas bringing the whole package together. It doesn't feel empty or disconnected like previous releases have.

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    All games and especially MMOs are a summation of their parts.

    With proper application of spin and word usage, a talented writer could make any two MMOs sound similar.

    The differences in presentation, in purpose, in direction and aesthetics etc. etc. is ALL that matters.

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

    Yeah, 10+ years ago.

    I choose not to live in the past.

    The little differences MATTER. A lot.

    I refuse to excuse a game for being shitty just because, compared to more recent games, its not as shitty.

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Sunnyguy46
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

    [mod edit]

    EXACTLY.

    A million + dollar European super car is just another car right? I mean, it has wheels. It steers, it probably has an engine of some kind, brakes, an accelerator... some doors.. a seat or a couple... lights here and there... no different then a 5K used Chevy right?

    What matters is the LITTLE DETAILS and the bigger ones too. Like what material things are made out of, how much quality went into their design, the production process....

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Those are some of the most shallow differences I've ever seen when someone tries to justify that the game they're playing isn't a clone. They aren't even different mechanics, they're just tweaked a little.

    Remember when every AAA game was VASTLY different from one another from the ground up?

    Yeah, 10+ years ago.

    I choose not to live in the past.

    The little differences MATTER. A lot.

    I refuse to excuse a game for being shitty just because, compared to more recent games, its not as shitty.

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

    I am judging compared to the best of the genre. You fail to realize that "best of the genre" is a subjective term.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    I refuse to excuse a game for being just because, compared to more recent games, its not as .

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

    Davis, do you not understand that presentation can go a long way to making things feel fresh? I don't think many games feel like WOW did, WOW had mind-numbingly boring presentation to me, even FFXIV handles theirs better IMO and I've been harsh on theirs, it's an important factor in every genre.

    In another thread you essentially said you prefer to just random grind over quest based advancement, you're not going to find that as a popular approach in this day and age.

    Sure people want to move away from quest hubs and hand holding, but that doesn't mean quests and story will not  be at the forefront of an RPG experience, FFXIV is no different in that respect. At least what I've seen of it.

    Many oldschool gaming fans seem to confuse the simulation genre with the RPG genre. Simulation is what you preach, that has nothing to do with the RPG or MMORPG.

    Now this next part I do not expect many to share the same belief, but it's my own. I think WOW is one of the worst RPG experiences I have ever seen, just about every single MMORPG to come after did better in that department IMO, FFXIV did in every department.  Some may have lacked elsewhere sure, yet, the RPG is what I play for now.

    That's why  I said in another of Spocks threads, I feel FFXIV feels far more modern than WOW, or the older MMORPGS before it.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    I refuse to excuse a game for being just because, compared to more recent games, its not as .

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

    Davis, do you not understand that presentation can go a long way to making things feel fresh? I don't think many games feel like WOW did, WOW had mind-numbingly boring presentation to me, even FFXIV handles theirs better IMO and I've been harsh on theirs, it's an important factor in every genre.

    In another thread you essentially said you prefer to just random grind over quest based advancement, you're not going to find that as a popular approach in this day and age.

    Sure people want to move away from quest hubs and hand holding, but that doesn't mean quests and story will not  be at the forefront of an RPG experience, FFXIV is no different in that respect. At least what I've seen of it.

    Many oldschool gaming fans seem to confuse the simulation genre with the RPG genre. Simulation is what you preach, that has nothing to do with the RPG or MMORPG.

    Now this next part I do not expect many to share the same belief, but it's my own. I think WOW is one of the worst RPG experiences I have ever seen, just about every single MMORPG to come after did better in that department IMO, FFXIV did in every department.  Some may have lacked elsewhere sure, yet, the RPG is what I play for now.

    That's why  I said in another of Spocks threads, I feel FFXIV feels far more modern than WOW, or the older MMORPGS before it.

     

    Yeah. It's a matter of all of the game's features coming together to make a solid concrete effort on it's own. It's borrowing for the top of the genre but at the same time it isn't afraid to stick to it's IP's routes with a few oldschool / non-cliche methods of handling things. The graphic style, the music, the old references and throwbacks from previous games all work heavily in it's favor. I haven't felt excited to stay up and get an extra level in a very long time, and this game managed to do it. I'm legitimately interested in getting higher level to receive additional content and have no intention of rushing my way there. It's a success in my opinion. 

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • Moosecat3Moosecat3 Topeka, KSPosts: 4Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party.

    You still haven't explained why you would post something so blatantly incorrect. Nor have you made an attempt to fix it.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Moosecat3
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Traditional FF games you never got more than a dozen or so possible attacks or defensive moves/spells per character in your party.

    You still haven't explained why you would post something so blatantly incorrect. Nor have you made an attempt to fix it.

    Actually I did, and you missed it.

    There are about the same number of spells (probably more) in FFXIV as there are in the FF1 link you made, it's just they are spread out across your party and in a MMO like FFXIV you only control one character so you only get a smaller selection of the spells...

    I don't think your Black Mage in FF1 had more than 15-20 spells at their disposal, you get about that many in FFXIV with cross class.

    You just sound confused because in a single player RPG from 20 years ago, you also controlled the White Mage and their 15-20 spells.

    White Mage in FFXIV gets 17 non spell2 or spell3 (unique) spells + cross class.

    There are 22 unique White magic spells on your list from FF1.

    So if you pick up a couple of Arcanist or Black Mage spells, maybe a spell or two from Paladin or Bard - same number in FFXIV as FF1.

    So you are wrong, but that is ok. Learning is fun!

    So I guess I low balled it for the old school FF games and XIV by saying "a dozen or so" I should have said "in both you get about 15-20" and that would have been more accurate.

  • MishakaiMishakai westminster, COPosts: 105Member

    The differences will really jump out when players start working on second, third and all the other classes to get all the jobs and array of skills.

    Quest hubs are only around for your first trip to 50.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    I refuse to excuse a game for being just because, compared to more recent games, its not as .

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

    Davis, do you not understand that presentation can go a long way to making things feel fresh?

    Yeah, and it's about as long lasting as a layer of cheap paint.

    LotRO has great presentation, but the gameplay is so tired and boring I couldn't get by level 10, despite having my favorite IP.

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTPosts: 607Member
    To me the main and core difference is that your progression path is not on rails. WoW is very linear these days in terms of what you can do.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Edmonds, WAPosts: 2,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
     

    I refuse to excuse a game for being just because, compared to more recent games, its not as .

    I'm going to judge a game against the best of the genre, not the dregs.

    Davis, do you not understand that presentation can go a long way to making things feel fresh?

    Yeah, and it's about as long lasting as a layer of cheap paint.

    LotRO has great presentation, but the gameplay is so tired and boring I couldn't get by level 10, despite having my favorite IP.

    The difference between games only existed so much back 10+ years ago because of the fact that it was the first of the genre. People didn't know what they liked and developers had more say in what they did. If you choose to only like games from back then and consider most a clone now then what is the point in even playing the genre as a whole? Go play something that is completely different, delve into the indie scene or something. It seems like you are just overtly negative just to be negative.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon
    it doesnt feel like wow, because they did a good job making it feel like final fantasy :)

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • marcustmarcust AdelaidePosts: 467Member Uncommon

    As someone who posts here very rarely, I'd like to thank the OP for making the effort to pass on his experience. I'm now genuinely interested in trying ARR, however I will wait another three months or so to avoid the crowds and check that the shine doesn't rub off too quickly.

    Very interesting comment by NagelRitter also.

     

    Playing: ESO, Submerged
    Favourite games have been: UO, Lineage2, WoW, Darkfall, Lotro, GW2

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