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This and other sites agree MMORPGs don't have to be "massive"

nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

Many people are arguing the literal English wording of the term MMORPG. Personally i don't think genre labels are literal, and i think they are just convenient labels for a group of games.

Don't believe me? I think it would be fun to go to some "MMORPG" sites and see how things are categorized.

First up ... MMORPG.com. If you click on "game list", it will say "MMORPG Gamelist - All MMO Games". What is listed under this big MMORPG game list? Amongst others ... we have

Diablo 3, LoL, DDO, the first GW, Vindictus, World of Tanks .. and many that either don't focus on, or have no "massive" MP gameplay.

 

How about whatmmorpg.com? (http://www.whatmmorpg.com/fantasy-mmorpg-games.php)

LoL is listed under Fantasy MMORPG Games. Mechwarrior Online is listed under sci-fi MMORPGs, right above Eve. There are other non-massive MMOs there, you can find the other listings yourself.

 

How about mmobomb.com? http://www.mmobomb.com/top-10-free-mmorpg

DDO, and NWO, and Vindictus are on their top 10 list. Other non-massive MMOs are listed .. you can go look at their whole listing.

 

I suspect very few, even those managing MMO websites care very much about the strict definition of the word "massive" in the label "MMORPG". The term is used quite loosely, if LoL, Diablo, vindictus, DDO and NWO are counted.

 

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Comments

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,727Member Uncommon

    Well first off the term isn't simply a literal statement.

    It had previously been defined including the key word 'concurrent users' relatively often. With the simplification of the term to massive, it opened up the analogy of what massive implied and the notion of what an MMO is pretty largely broke down.

     

    For the most part now it more seems to imply that most data is stored and hosted out from a company run server rather than letting players host their own.

     

    Even now that notion is breaking down too though. As we have The War Z (now Infestation) that is classified as an MMO, but they don't even restrict you necessarily to company servers.

     

    Pretty much, if it's online then it fits the ability for someone somewhere to call a game an MMO at this point.

     

    So if we are to follow this notion you lay down, then it's possibly simpler to ask what games aren't an MMO.

     

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon

    In principle I disagree with you on this, and I do not think those websites agree with you either.

    If a game is going to be called a Massively Mulitplayer Game, it does need to have a lot of people.

    LoL may not be an MMORPG, but if it can hold more people than a traditional multiplayer, it is an MMO, therefore it is massive.

     

    You may think labels are useless, and they do change.  However lables are what we use to differentiate and classify things.  Classification is needed to help with any kind of search or research. If I am in the mood for an MMO I don't want a spg even if there is some similarity.  Labels help with recognition.

    Second.  While this website may specialize in MMO's, it does not exclusively cater to MMO's, despite it's name.  Dairy queen sells more than dairy products too.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Deivos

    Well first off the term isn't simply a literal statement.

    It had previously been defined including the key word 'concurrent users' relatively often. With the simplification of the term to massive, it opened up the analogy of what massive implied and the notion of what an MMO is pretty largely broke down.

     

    For the most part now it more seems to imply that most data is stored and hosted out from a company run server rather than letting players host their own.

     

    Even now that notion is breaking down too though. As we have The War Z (now Infestation) that is classified as an MMO, but they don't even restrict you necessarily to company servers.

     

    Pretty much, if it's online then it fits the ability for someone somewhere to call a game an MMO at this point.

     

    So if we are to follow this notion you lay down, then it's possibly simpler to ask what games aren't an MMO.

     

    I didn't lay down anything. I simply point out the common usage of the term in 3 (and others are welcomed to add) MMORPG sites.

    Oh, and no one says it is complex. Just go to the game list on MMORPG.com .. if it is there, then call it a MMORPG. It is an easy way to talk about a list of games to facilitate communications. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And yes, if you look at some of those sites, online shooters are also classified as MMO .. again ... people don't seem to care about strict definitions.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    In principle I disagree with you on this, and I do not think those websites agree with you either.

    If a game is going to be called a Massively Mulitplayer Game, it does need to have a lot of people.

    LoL may not be an MMORPG, but if it can hold more people than a traditional multiplayer, it is an MMO, therefore it is massive.

     

    You may think labels are useless, and they do change.  However lables are what we use to differentiate and classify things.  Classification is needed to help with any kind of search or research. If I am in the mood for an MMO I don't want a spg even if there is some similarity.  Labels help with recognition.

    Second.  While this website may specialize in MMO's, it does not exclusively cater to MMO's, despite it's name.  Dairy queen sells more than dairy products too.

    And yet .. they list all the games i mentioned as MMORPGs.

    I am not looking for a debate of what MMORPG should be ... i simply don't care about labels. I am just pointing out that these sties categorize the aforementioned games as such. Not my categorization, theirs.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    In principle I disagree with you on this, and I do not think those websites agree with you either.

    If a game is going to be called a Massively Mulitplayer Game, it does need to have a lot of people.

    LoL may not be an MMORPG, but if it can hold more people than a traditional multiplayer, it is an MMO, therefore it is massive.

     

    You may think labels are useless, and they do change.  However lables are what we use to differentiate and classify things.  Classification is needed to help with any kind of search or research. If I am in the mood for an MMO I don't want a spg even if there is some similarity.  Labels help with recognition.

    Second.  While this website may specialize in MMO's, it does not exclusively cater to MMO's, despite it's name.  Dairy queen sells more than dairy products too.

    And yet .. they list all the games i mentioned as MMORPGs.

    I am not looking for a debate of what MMORPG should be ... i simply don't care about labels. I am just pointing out that these sties categorize the aforementioned games as such. Not my categorization, theirs.

     

    I didn't state they weren't.  I stated if they have more people than a traditional multiplayer they are massively multiplayer in some capacity.  I guess they feel those games meet that definition. 

    You may not care about labels but once again labels are important in search and recognition.  If you don't know what something is called, it makes it harder to search for it.  If you do know it is called it makes it usually much easier to search for the things that will fill whatever desire you have.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    Do we really want to go with the "literal" argument?  It's a site focused on MMOs so naturally the game list is going to be filled with MMOs.

    Note the quick game jump at the top says "Quick Game Jump" not "MMO Only List".  I really don't want several dropdowns for every sub-genre and flavor.  I want a single game list I can search for the game I'm looking for.

    I'm also a gamer, not an mmo-purist gamer.  I'm glad they include other games that don't fit the traditional definition. It's nice we can post about D3 or TL2, or any other game outside the standard definition.  To extrapolate anything beyond that (like the ridiculous assertion that MMORPG.com is making a statement by this) is beyond reaching and just mental fapping.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,727Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I didn't lay down anything. I simply point out the common usage of the term in 3 (and others are welcomed to add) MMORPG sites.

    Oh, and no one says it is complex. Just go to the game list on MMORPG.com .. if it is there, then call it a MMORPG. It is an easy way to talk about a list of games to facilitate communications. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And yes, if you look at some of those sites, online shooters are also classified as MMO .. again ... people don't seem to care about strict definitions.

     

    Actually, yes you did lay stuff down. The moment you scribbled out this post you had some inclination behind it's writing. Some point(s) you desired to get across. The content therein painted the picture and implications.

     

    And I agree, no one said it's complex. Not even I said it was complex. What I did say is that the definition that drove what an MMO was has been simplified. That said nothing to it's complexity, only that it was getting more loosely defined.

     

    If you simply don't care about labels, that's a notion that did not need a thread. If you are going to say labels are unnecessary, then that's a matter subject to reason. If you are to implicitly agree the games that are now labeled MMOs are actually MMOs then that opens up an entirely different can of worms.

     

    I have generally kept a lack of concern how common media degrades the structure of any system,but I'm not going to advocate it's happening on a personal level either.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

     

    Note the quick game jump at the top says "Quick Game Jump" not "MMO Only List".  I really don't want several dropdowns for every sub-genre and flavor.  I want a single game list I can search for the game I'm looking for.

    I

    If you click on "game list", it said "MMORPG Gamelist" on the top. Not "some game list". Not "MMORPG and other games".

    And this is not the only site. Go to the other one and look at their category headings.

    And apparently you don't mind at all if all these games are listed under mmorpg without other genre labels. That is the point. This loose categorization works for you.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

     

    Note the quick game jump at the top says "Quick Game Jump" not "MMO Only List".  I really don't want several dropdowns for every sub-genre and flavor.  I want a single game list I can search for the game I'm looking for.

    I

    If you click on "game list", it said "MMORPG Gamelist" on the top. Not "some game list". Not "MMORPG and other games".

    And this is not the only site. Go to the other one and look at their category headings.

    And apparently you don't mind at all if all these games are listed under mmorpg without other genre labels. That is the point. This loose categorization works for you.

    the website is called MMORPG.com,it's the website's list, not genre's list.

     

    on MMOHUT.com you have MMOHUT gamelist and so on.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

     

    Note the quick game jump at the top says "Quick Game Jump" not "MMO Only List".  I really don't want several dropdowns for every sub-genre and flavor.  I want a single game list I can search for the game I'm looking for.

    I

    If you click on "game list", it said "MMORPG Gamelist" on the top. Not "some game list". Not "MMORPG and other games".

    And this is not the only site. Go to the other one and look at their category headings.

    And apparently you don't mind at all if all these games are listed under mmorpg without other genre labels. That is the point. This loose categorization works for you.

    the website is called MMORPG.com,it's the website's list, not genre's list.

     

    on MMOHUT.com you have MMOHUT gamelist and so on.

    How about whatmmorpg.com then? They even have different category list. Don't tell me you think their "fantasy MMORPG" list is not what they think MMORPG should be.

     

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    I don't know who you're talking about, nor do I think a game is an MMO because an obscure website claims so.

     

    MMOs have a definition, and no matter how hard you want to believe a game fits, it either does or doesn't.

     

    it's like the Middle Class...everyone thinks he's in it.

    Or being average. 50% of people aren't there yet.

    image

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    It's an MMO if the person playing it perceives it to be. That's all that matters.

    Perception determines the value of your product or cash shop features.

    Everything effects peoples perception. Marketing budgets are only so big.

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Honestly, the website is far more inclusive than it used to be.  Any online only game is now considered an MMO at least  to be talked about on this site.   I think that has to do more with money than anything.  
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Can't speak for other sites, but on MMORPG.com the games are listed because they are MMORPGs, or are of interest to people who are interested in MMORPGs.

    Also, there are definitions forming around the terms, "MMO" and "MMORPG". A general consensus is being reached on what they mean.

    MMO
    MMORPG

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Many people are arguing the literal English wording of the term MMORPG. Personally i don't think genre labels are literal, and i think they are just convenient labels for a group of games.

    Don't believe me? I think it would be fun to go to some "MMORPG" sites and see how things are categorized.

    First up ... MMORPG.com. If you click on "game list", it will say "MMORPG Gamelist - All MMO Games". What is listed under this big MMORPG game list? Amongst others ... we have

    Diablo 3, LoL, DDO, the first GW, Vindictus, World of Tanks .. and many that either don't focus on, or have no "massive" MP gameplay.

     

    How about whatmmorpg.com? (http://www.whatmmorpg.com/fantasy-mmorpg-games.php)

    LoL is listed under Fantasy MMORPG Games. Mechwarrior Online is listed under sci-fi MMORPGs, right above Eve. There are other non-massive MMOs there, you can find the other listings yourself.

     

    How about mmobomb.com? http://www.mmobomb.com/top-10-free-mmorpg

    DDO, and NWO, and Vindictus are on their top 10 list. Other non-massive MMOs are listed .. you can go look at their whole listing.

     

    I suspect very few, even those managing MMO websites care very much about the strict definition of the word "massive" in the label "MMORPG". The term is used quite loosely, if LoL, Diablo, vindictus, DDO and NWO are counted.

     

    Actually the MMO part is very literally. RPG is a bit more subjective due to how far someone considers role playing to be.

     

    So yes, to be an MMO, you have to be a Massively Multiplayer Online game. This means a very large amount of people have to be able to interact in the same world at the same time. MOBAs aren't even close to massively and are smaller than most multiplayer games out there. Why anyone tried to give them the MMO label is just plain f**king baffling. Same goes with something like World of Tanks. A lobby and small arena gameplay do not an MMO make. Hell CoD and Battlefield can have 40+ people in a match, yet they don't try to throw MMO on there.

     

    And yes other genres do have literally translations as well. An RTS has to be a real time strategy game. An FPS has to be a First Person Shooter. In fact almost all labels are literally and those who misuse them or try to stretch them to fit other things are simply being moronic.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I suspect very few, even those managing MMO websites care very much about the strict definition of the word "massive" in the label "MMORPG". The term is used quite loosely, if LoL, Diablo, vindictus, DDO and NWO are counted.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/27/the-soapbox-actually-that-really-isnt-an-mmo/#continued

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,753Member Uncommon
    MMORPGS dont have to be massive, but once you take the massive part out you rename it to Multiplayer Online RPG (MORPG). Nothing massive about it.

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Many people are arguing the literal English wording of the term MMORPG.

    No, we're not. We're arguing what MMORPG meant when the phrase was coined by MMO creators.

    We don't going around saying that any game where you play a role is an RPG.

    We don't go around saying that every game that is first person is an FPS.

    We don't go around saying every game that lets you connect to the internet is an MMO.

     

    When someone says RPG they have a general meaning to what they say beyond the literal definition.

    And when someone USED to say MMO, it meant, thousands of players in a persistent world interacting at all times.

    Marketing has diluted the term after MMO became a buzz word. We're keeping the real definition of the word alive.

  • CecropiaCecropia The Great White North, ONPosts: 3,471Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    .....You may think labels are useless, and they do change.  However lables are what we use to differentiate and classify things.  Classification is needed to help with any kind of search or research. If I am in the mood for an MMO I don't want a spg even if there is some similarity.  Labels help with recognition.

    Second.  While this website may specialize in MMO's, it does not exclusively cater to MMO's, despite it's name.  Dairy queen sells more than dairy products too.

    I completely agree with you here. Labels have a simple and important function.

    And, yeah, why would mmorpg.com (or any other MMO gaming site for that matter) want to cover MMOs only and lose out on what is probably nine times out of ten, a gamer that plays in other video gaming genres? Of course they are going to cover the games that they think MMO players are going to be interested in that happen to not be MMOs.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    MMORPGS dont have to be massive, but once you take the massive part out you rename it to Multiplayer Online RPG (MORPG). Nothing massive about it.

    And the multiplayer and online are kind of redundant.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    MMORPGS dont have to be massive, but once you take the massive part out you rename it to Multiplayer Online RPG (MORPG). Nothing massive about it.

    And the multiplayer and online are kind of redundant.

    There are games which aren't played over the internet you know. I guess all board games should be called online games since multiplayer and online are the same thing now....

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    This just in, the term Red Barn is not just for red barns anymore. You could have a blue barn or a purple barn and call it a red barn. Hell you could have a white kitten and call it a red barn because all words are subjective and do not in fact all have definitions.
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I suspect very few, even those managing MMO websites care very much about the strict definition of the word "massive" in the label "MMORPG". The term is used quite loosely, if LoL, Diablo, vindictus, DDO and NWO are counted.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/27/the-soapbox-actually-that-really-isnt-an-mmo/#continued

    The reason I can't endorse that article's line of thinking is that someone has to set an arbitrary line where massive begins and ends.

    Is massive when hundreds of player interact simultaneously? Is it thousands? Do they have to interact within the same space? Meaning, can 5 interact in one instance while 5 interaction in another and so on until you've reached 100?

     

    Is a game with very miniscule playerbase still a MMO? Let's say I log into Vanguard and only find 34 people online. What is it?

     

    What happens if a game doesn't have enough players? Does it cease to be a MMO because it fails to be massive, or is it granted the name based on a theoretical possibility of that many players interacting? In which case, if you can base it on theory, then you can slippery slope that into "well IF this lobby game like D3 had an open world, it would be massively multiplayer!" So can you or can you not allow "ifs"?

     

    How about a game which has a lot of players playing in a persistent world, but they don't interact on a massive scale, maybe only 50 of them are interacting, is it still a MMO?

     

    Maybe it is best to just retire the term 'MMO' as it doesn't really define much outside of a theoretical model that will shift constantly. "Look 1000 people just interacted simultaneously, it's a MMO!" "Oh, now they're solo'ing again, it's just an RPG now."

    Until we retire the term MMO, I will consider any game with massive amount of players playing online a MMO. And that's because I can't accept a definition that it dictated by an arbitrary rule that fluctuates based on who is using it.

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    MMORPGS dont have to be massive, but once you take the massive part out you rename it to Multiplayer Online RPG (MORPG). Nothing massive about it.

    And the multiplayer and online are kind of redundant.

    There are games which aren't played over the internet you know.

    Not much on PCs.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Many people are arguing the literal English wording of the term MMORPG.

    No, we're not. We're arguing what MMORPG meant when the phrase was coined by MMO creators.

    We don't going around saying that any game where you play a role is an RPG.

    We don't go around saying that every game that is first person is an FPS.

    We don't go around saying every game that lets you connect to the internet is an MMO.

     

    When someone says RPG they have a general meaning to what they say beyond the literal definition.

    And when someone USED to say MMO, it meant, thousands of players in a persistent world interacting at all times.

    Marketing has diluted the term after MMO became a buzz word. We're keeping the real definition of the word alive.

    Bumping the answer.

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