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Will grouping be obsolete as in GW2?

AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

Anyone else see a potential problem?

 

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Comments

  • urdrielurdriel granadaPosts: 31Member Uncommon

    Could you post videos of YOU ,doing all of GW2 dungeons and GROUP content ALONE? plz.

     

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by urdriel

    Could you post videos of YOU ,doing all of GW2 dungeons and GROUP content ALONE? plz.

     

     

    Sure there are some great dungeons for groups no doubt. But as you can see from gameplay videos, they solo mobs more than they do working together to take mobs. Except the bosses of course.

    The rest of the game? A soloers paradise.

    But seriously how about your opinion on TESOs approach, not much of a trinity like GW2. You think it will have the same effect on its players as did GW2?

    image
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

    Of all the recent MMOS i have played, i have soloed all the way to level cap and grouped only for dungeons. In GW2 and Rift however i have been in more groups thanks to dynamic events. So what is talk of grouping being obsolete in GW2.

     

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

    I don't see any issues. 

    Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

    In my opinion, this can work out well in this area as it forces people to get to know each other if they want a group that works together well. The people who don't bother interacting with players, tend to be the people who do their own thing in the group.

    More choice is never a bad thing. If a person needs to be limited by a class just to party well, they will be better off playing a different game. This game requires a little more thinking and interaction with people if you want a good group. It's simple as that.

    Course I am used to games like this since I played mabinogi for like 5+ years. You have to really interact with players and pay attention of your surroundings. If 1 person messes up, it can screw everyone in the group and you end up with a party wipe. 

    In other words it requires MORE working together and communication. I never played GW2, but i assume if it isn't working well, it's because players simply fail at communicating and working together properly. It isn't hard to come up with a plan before the dungeon. Who is in charge of what and such. 

    Example:

    Bob, you have the most health and defense, you take the defensive position and draw the agro.

    Bill, you have the best healing among us, you can join in on the fight, just make sure no one falls. Keep an eye on health!

    Jane, attack! attack! attack! Don't give them any chance to breath. 

    I will take out all the long range enemies and help Jane destroy the enemies that are left after.

     

    It really isn't all that hard in my opinion. lol me and my long winded responses -.-

     

    Edit: I should mention that, I suppose an issue could happen if the mobs are to easy.

  • BeelzebobbieBeelzebobbie MalmöPosts: 429Member

    I don't get why ppl are saying that there soloing all the time and that it sucks, well join a guild then, play with friends? I am always in group when I want to, you get better drops in a group so there is no advatage in playing solo.

    If all of you are soloing all the time it could be cause your shy and then mayby you shouldn't play mmos if you are afraid to talk to ppl.

    Sure you can solo if you want to, but you can do that in every game. 

    Don't tell me it's impossible to get to level 90 in wow without grouping.

    I don't get the diffrence when your in a group in alterac valley how many ppl follow there group leader then? (if it's not a premaid)

    sure you always get forced into a group but do you always play with them? are you friends after? the anser is no cause you don't even play on the same server.

    The grouping in gw2 is diffrent, you have more opptions to play solo if you want but other then that I don't se the diffrence.

    I hope they use the same model for elder scrolls online.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Not sure you guys understand the question, or maybe your just too defensive.

    Even in a group, in dungeons your still soloing most of the mobs. That's my point.

    Outside of dungeons there is little to no need for a group because of how the classes are set up.

    It seems TESO could follow that same path.

    For example, in DAOC, the entire group focused on each mob together. Some smallers ones might be soloable, but mostly it was a coordinated effort.

    If someone messed up, someone gets fragged. It makes for some intense gameplay.

    image
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Not sure you guys understand the question, or maybe your just too defensive.

    Even in a group, in dungeons your still soloing most of the mobs. That's my point.

    Outside of dungeons there is little to no need for a group because of how the classes are set up.

    It seems TESO could follow that same path.

    For example, in DAOC, the entire group focused on each mob together. Some smallers ones might be soloable, but mostly it was a coordinated effort.

    If someone messed up, someone gets fragged. It makes for some intense gameplay.

    I understand the question just fine, and that really would only happen if the mobs are too easy. It really doesn't have to do with how classes are set up.

    The only reason it may feel like it has to do with classes is because you are too used to having them permanently assigned. So even when mobs are easy you still have to stick with your job / class. In ESO if mobs are too easy, you can take your own since you are not limited to 1 job / class.

    So if mobs are too hard to take on alone, you will need to work together regardless of how the classes work.

    We really will not know if this is an issue until after open beta when they fine tune difficulty.

  • urdrielurdriel granadaPosts: 31Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Not sure you guys understand the question, or maybe your just too defensive.

    Even in a group, in dungeons your still soloing most of the mobs. That's my point.

    Outside of dungeons there is little to no need for a group because of how the classes are set up.

    It seems TESO could follow that same path.

    For example, in DAOC, the entire group focused on each mob together. Some smallers ones might be soloable, but mostly it was a coordinated effort.

    If someone messed up, someone gets fragged. It makes for some intense gameplay.

    Rising Force Online, you need a full group to kill  high lvl mobs, but RF online is a grindfest, if you cant find a group, you cant level.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Yes, you can probably reach 50 withouth Dungeons...

     

    In GW2 there where several games, and they where not really related to each other in anything else that you could use the same character in all of them..

     

    -Open world PvE

    -Personal Story PvE

    -grouped dungeon PvE

    -WvWvW PvP

    -Instanced PvP

    -Mini games

    - jumping puzzles

     

    You could enjoy all of these but none where a requirement to get the most out of one of the other parts...  Its how GW2 worked, they where only minimal related to eachother..  If you where a social wreckage, grouping was not required in GW2, but you missed out on a hell of a lot of fun

     

     

    In TESO however, i am expecting that you might need to finish a dungeon to get further in a PvE quest... It still remains to be seen how this is done.. 

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member

    From the way it looks, TESO is more of a solo player game, with multiplayer aspects.  Zenimax even shys away from calling it an MMO, likely because they don't want backlash (from being overly dishonest?)

     

    Producer Matt Firor spills the beans on the design focus for The Elder Scrolls Online

    June 20th, 2013

    http://www.gamerzines.com/playstation/zenimax-elder-scrolls-online.html

     

    “I would characterise this game as an Elder Scrolls multiplayer game [rather] than an MMO, he told us.

    “We want both [single-player and multiplayer] groups to feel very happy in the game, but when you sit down and play it you’ll think it’s an Elder Scrolls game first. If you played the PC versions of Oblivion and Skyrim this is the same control system. Same mouse-driven combat, you have a reticule in the middle of the screen, you aim you don’t tab lock. Obviously the more you play it, the more multiplayer stuff kind of comes in, but when there’s choices to be made regarding player impact on world, we go the Elder Scrolls route not the MMO route.”

     

    Just as well I guess, console games don't exactly have organized grouping anyways, do they?  The odd part is that it is a subscription game .. which is apparently a money grab for as long as possible before it goes F2P.

     

    So from what it looks like, you will see other PVE people standing around .. you could group, or not group .. it likely won't matter very much.  Can't really comment on the PVP yet, but it doesn't seem to be targeting the MMO crowd.

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

  • EsidarEsidar WarszawaPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

    I actually know what you mean. The question is rather: is grouping needed at all ? I mean with latest games, like Rift or GW2 we see this notion to bring people together without the need to actually grouping. Question is, what purpouse serve groups in those games ? Besides artifical limit of players in instanced dungeon ? Grouping in those games seem to be an archaic mechanic not needed at all. It is not any special mechanic that extends the gameplay or that gives you more fun. Currently it is used only to limit the number of players entering the dungeon.

    Do I have a problem with this ? Yes. I'm an old school player, and I don't like this new idea of auto-grouping or forcing people to group. This is a rather serious shift in game design. Now, people level for sole purpouse of leveling. You should play the game only because it's fun, not because it gives you a reward in a form of next level. Games with auto-grouping have this notion of maximing your level as fast as you can. Daily bonuses, buffs with +XP, etc, all this serves one purpouse: leveling. Not having a fun, but leveling.

    Auto grouping, follows this pattern in game design. Serves only as a buff to gain XP faster not as a way to interact with other people. You could replace players with bots and you wouldn't feel any difference.

  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Edison, NJPosts: 457Member

    The concept of "grouping" in an MMO should be deprecated and removed. I like the idea of showing up at a monster or mob where there's someone already there and not needing to wait my turn or ask to join up or whatever. We can both leap into action and get credit without the need for setting up a group, double checking the loot roll options, buffs, etc.

    Just let people work together or alone as it pleases them. Everyone gets credit, and people can choose on their own if they want to continue to hang out and play together, or go their separate ways.

    You can't force social interactions as a developer. You can only create scenarios where working together is advisable. Heck, you can even put out scenarios where multiple players is required. But to make them stop, form a group, and then move in for the attack while the enemies stand just out of aggro range while it's being setup is an outdated concept in my mind.

    image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dontadow

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

    Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

    WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? image

    Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member
    Seems to be the general direction all MMO's are going at this point unfortunately.
  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by dontadow

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

    Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

    WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? image

    Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

     

    I have failed you guys... my question wasn't clear enough, but Iselin was the closest. I should also say I have no opinion, I like the trinity but I also like the freedom of GW2s system, and TESO is very close to that.

    The idea of the tank and healer, ect.. is exactly what I'm talking about, but not in the same context.

    In GW2 and TESO, they have skills that "play" off each other, to enhance them. Trouble is I don't see it much in GW2, because players are taking on their own mobs. This is the point I'm trying to get at.

    I didn't do the high level dungeons so I cant speak for them, but every group I was in we each took on our own mob. Since TESO is using a similar method, it seems we will get the same results. So why even have all those skills that play off each others skills if we are all busy with our own mobs?

    It just seems weird.

    Like the DAOC example I gave you, we could never solo our own mobs. Because as Iselin said, we needed a tank, a healer and a dps...ect.

    So maybe the other posters are right, grouping has become obsolete? Is there a way to balance it?

    image
  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

    How can grouping be obsolete if people are soloing within a group?

    image
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by dontadow

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

    Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

    WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? image

    Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

     

    I have failed you guys... my question wasn't clear enough, but Iselin was the closest. I should also say I have no opinion, I like the trinity but I also like the freedom of GW2s system, and TESO is very close to that.

    The idea of the tank and healer, ect.. is exactly what I'm talking about, but not in the same context.

    In GW2 and TESO, they have skills that "play" off each other, to enhance them. Trouble is I don't see it much in GW2, because players are taking on their own mobs. This is the point I'm trying to get at.

    I didn't do the high level dungeons so I cant speak for them, but every group I was in we each took on our own mob. Since TESO is using a similar method, it seems we will get the same results. So why even have all those skills that play off each others skills if we are all busy with our own mobs?

    It just seems weird.

    Like the DAOC example I gave you, we could never solo our own mobs. Because as Iselin said, we needed a tank, a healer and a dps...ect.

    So maybe the other posters are right, grouping has become obsolete? Is there a way to balance it?

    Good post. You're serious about this so I'll reply in kind...

    We're in a transition in MMO PVE play at the moment. Nowhere is it more evident than in EQN design where they are prioritizing mob AI as a design goal. The simplest way to describe it is that developers are trying to make PVE more like PVP... they want mobs to behave more realistically and more closely behave as human players would.

    No more dumb mob behavior where they see a player with heavy armor and shield that says "hey mob, yo mama!" and all 20 of them attack that player exclusively even running by and ignoring the other players in the party who are closer and hurting them more.

    That is just stupid. But it's the stupid we have all gotten used to and it takes a developer with some cojones to try to break away from that.

    GW2 was one of the first to attempt this but they just didn't spend quite enough time on mob AI - in particular, they didn't "tune" the AI in the all-important "fun factor." Mobs in the open world in GW2 are brainless wastes of space and the ones in dungeons are smart and devious and often out-smart the unprepared players... I have never seen a more drastic difference in mob behavior, AI and difficulty level between the open world and instances than in GW2.

    TESO is also trying to make this change. They have even used the "PVE plays like PVP" simplified example to describe what they're trying to do... hopefully, it'll be a step-up from GW2 in both, consistency and fun.

    EQN... if you've got a spare hour or two and want to understand what they're trying to do there, these 2 hour-long lectures by the guy who is responsible for EQN mob AI, Dave Mark, will give you a pretty good idea... they are both about "utility based AI" where mob behavior is dictated by what is in their best interest after evaluating all kinds of variables.

     http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through and  http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

    So what does this all mean? Anyone who has ever PvPd seriously has done so in groups. Groups exist and are just as important, if not more so, in PVP than in PvE...but they're different. Human players are not stupid enough to make a beeline for the tank and beat on just him until the healer heals too much and then they go after him.

    This is what will be happening in PVE also in the new games that are going that way. No more bored playing with one eye while you watch a movie with the other one. You're going to have to use interrupts, CC, kite and, most of all, watch what the mobs are doing and react intelligently.

    So what does this look like in a video to a casual observer? It looks like a mess because you have no handy-dandy tank-and-spank frame of reference. It doesn't feel that way when you're in the group and playing it but someone that knows nothing else other than WOW and its many clones, will think that its just messy.

    You can look at it that way if you want, but all it really is, is the same "messy" PvP play style imported into PvE due to much smarter mob AI.

    So yeah, things are changing...for the better.

     

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by dontadow

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

    Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

    WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? image

    Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

     

    I have failed you guys... my question wasn't clear enough, but Iselin was the closest. I should also say I have no opinion, I like the trinity but I also like the freedom of GW2s system, and TESO is very close to that.

    The idea of the tank and healer, ect.. is exactly what I'm talking about, but not in the same context.

    In GW2 and TESO, they have skills that "play" off each other, to enhance them. Trouble is I don't see it much in GW2, because players are taking on their own mobs. This is the point I'm trying to get at.

    I didn't do the high level dungeons so I cant speak for them, but every group I was in we each took on our own mob. Since TESO is using a similar method, it seems we will get the same results. So why even have all those skills that play off each others skills if we are all busy with our own mobs?

    It just seems weird.

    Like the DAOC example I gave you, we could never solo our own mobs. Because as Iselin said, we needed a tank, a healer and a dps...ect.

    So maybe the other posters are right, grouping has become obsolete? Is there a way to balance it?

    ...

    I see my answer wasn't good enough for ya XD

    I really have no idea what the heck your asking if my answer didn't answer it for you. My answer answers all the questions you keep asking, so I am really confused.

  • PiechunksPiechunks ProvincePosts: 136Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

     

      Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

    the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

    It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

    People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Piechunks
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

     

      Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

    the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

    It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

    People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

    You know what one of the biggest problems is? It isn't anti social people - it's the simple fact that voice communications is infinitely better than text chat while fighting AND developers that don't integrate voice chat into games.

    It's a pain in the ass to have to use a different vent channel or worse, a different program like mumble, etc. when you play with a new group... so you tend to stick with people who use the same VOIP and channel as you do.

    It's one thing SOE is doing right with SOEmote built in to EQ2, Planetside 2 and EQN... and it's one thing that Zenimax is doing wrong. SOEmote even morphs your voice to a sound font you select yourself to make it more immersive and get rid of the jarring moment when you first hear that hot elf female sound like a husky southern truck driver dude image

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Piechunks
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    We haven't seen all the skill trees, but it seems players will be able to heal and do damage, just like in GW2.

    I remember nobody ever grouped up in GW2, there was no need to even talk. Each person handled his own mob.

    Looking at the TESO videos, you can see the same thing, lots of soloing within the group.

    Anyone else see a potential problem?

     

     

      Yes, it will have the same kind of asocial community that GW2 has:

    the same thing happened in WoW as soon as communities got large; people would no longer group outside of their social circles and would shy away from grouping with strangers.

    It isn't so much behavior stemming from the games design as it is a natural property, so I think that they have high expectations of their game, since they are preparing for the large crowd instead of a smaller hardcore one.

    People don't like to interact with strangers, but they do like to use them as a backup to experience content with known friends.

     

    We cannot rule this out. I have seen the decline of PUG friendly groups myself. This is definitely a factor in todays MMOs, and in GW2, and possibly TESO.

    I think the Devs today are trying to get groups to form organically, not forced. I still enjoy PUGS, but as Iselin says in the next post, PUGS would be sooooo much better if we had voice chat.

    I know a lot of people are against it, but with enough tools to block jerks from messing with you, it would be fine. I play a lot of Planetside 2 and the there has never been a problem in voice. Sometimes you get a jerk who plays loud music, it takes only a second to mute him.

    image
  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by dontadow

    Posts like this should read (I don't understand any other way to play a game other than like WOW). 

     

    There are just some goals you can't do in GW2 if you arent grouping and working together.  Both dungeons, above world bosses and now the events require communication (watch the chat dialogue and coordination). I'd argue they're far more social games because it doesn't force you into a single box. 

    Not to mention WvW... funny how this same crap gets posted in EQN. "We need tanks, dedicated healers and tab-targetting or we are doomed!... and raids... no raids = fail!"

    WOWites sure are going down kicking and screaming aren't they? image

    Reminds me of the old Dylan verse: "...something's happening here but you don't know what it is...do you Mr. Jones?"

     

    I have failed you guys... my question wasn't clear enough, but Iselin was the closest. I should also say I have no opinion, I like the trinity but I also like the freedom of GW2s system, and TESO is very close to that.

    The idea of the tank and healer, ect.. is exactly what I'm talking about, but not in the same context.

    In GW2 and TESO, they have skills that "play" off each other, to enhance them. Trouble is I don't see it much in GW2, because players are taking on their own mobs. This is the point I'm trying to get at.

    I didn't do the high level dungeons so I cant speak for them, but every group I was in we each took on our own mob. Since TESO is using a similar method, it seems we will get the same results. So why even have all those skills that play off each others skills if we are all busy with our own mobs?

    It just seems weird.

    Like the DAOC example I gave you, we could never solo our own mobs. Because as Iselin said, we needed a tank, a healer and a dps...ect.

    So maybe the other posters are right, grouping has become obsolete? Is there a way to balance it?

    Good post. You're serious about this so I'll reply in kind...

    We're in a transition in MMO PVE play at the moment. Nowhere is it more evident than in EQN design where they are prioritizing mob AI as a design goal. The simplest way to describe it is that developers are trying to make PVE more like PVP... they want mobs to behave more realistically and more closely behave as human players would.

    No more dumb mob behavior where they see a player with heavy armor and shield that says "hey mob, yo mama!" and all 20 of them attack that player exclusively even running by and ignoring the other players in the party who are closer and hurting them more.

    That is just stupid. But it's the stupid we have all gotten used to and it takes a developer with some cojones to try to break away from that.

    GW2 was one of the first to attempt this but they just didn't spend quite enough time on mob AI - in particular, they didn't "tune" the AI in the all-important "fun factor." Mobs in the open world in GW2 are brainless wastes of space and the ones in dungeons are smart and devious and often out-smart the unprepared players... I have never seen a more drastic difference in mob behavior, AI and difficulty level between the open world and instances than in GW2.

    TESO is also trying to make this change. They have even used the "PVE plays like PVP" simplified example to describe what they're trying to do... hopefully, it'll be a step-up from GW2 in both, consistency and fun.

    EQN... if you've got a spare hour or two and want to understand what they're trying to do there, these 2 hour-long lectures by the guy who is responsible for EQN mob AI, Dave Mark, will give you a pretty good idea... they are both about "utility based AI" where mob behavior is dictated by what is in their best interest after evaluating all kinds of variables.

     http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012410/Improving-AI-Decision-Modeling-Through and  http://gdcvault.com/play/1015683/Embracing-the-Dark-Art-of

    So what does this all mean? Anyone who has ever PvPd seriously has done so in groups. Groups exist and are just as important, if not more so, in PVP than in PvE...but they're different. Human players are not stupid enough to make a beeline for the tank and beat on just him until the healer heals too much and then they go after him.

    This is what will be happening in PVE also in the new games that are going that way. No more bored playing with one eye while you watch a movie with the other one. You're going to have to use interrupts, CC, kite and, most of all, watch what the mobs are doing and react intelligently.

    So what does this look like in a video to a casual observer? It looks like a mess because you have no handy-dandy tank-and-spank frame of reference. It doesn't feel that way when you're in the group and playing it but someone that knows nothing else other than WOW and its many clones, will think that its just messy.

    You can look at it that way if you want, but all it really is, is the same "messy" PvP play style imported into PvE due to much smarter mob AI.

    So yeah, things are changing...for the better.

     

     

    As a die hard PvPer, I'm actually not that worried, because we will always run in groups and use the skills that work off each other to our full advantage. Its why I will be playing TESO. But, I'm sure I will be doing some PvE, so this does kind of concern me.

    That's an interesting perception. I never thought of trying to make PvE more like PvP, but when I think about it it does kind of make sense.

    In a PvP battle, we do "solo our own mobs" so to speak. But I think the PvPers will get a whole lot more use of those skills that play off other skills. Except for the higher level dungeons.

    Especailly the CC. I am leaning towards the Sorc/Dark Magic, specifically for the CC. This is where TESO seems to favor the trinity, at least a little bit.

    If you look at the base classes, there is one that heals, and one that CCs, and even a sort of tank. But as you expand from the base classes, its all up in the air.

    So doesn't it seem like a waste to have all those CC spells or the skills that work off each other, if we are fighting more PvP style in a PvE environment?

    Seems like TESO is riding the very edge of the group/solo mechanic. I cant wait to see it work.

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  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally

     

    I don't see any issues. 

    Players create the issues, not the game. If players can't work together that is their own fault. Simply group with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

    Wrong. Mechanics have a lot to do with grouping. In games that force grouping or give huge increases in xp or loot to groups more people group than games with mechanics where there is no penalty to solo or mobs are too easy-many won't group. If most people are not grouping then it is difficult to get in a group, let alone a good group, as majority does solo content. CO was a good example, combat was fun but could solo all but 6 or so missions and those were so hard group would wipe repeatedly. And without any death penalty, you just ran from respawn at entrance and kept zerging with no plan until done. Mechanics/game design very much influence/direct how people play and effects everyone.
  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Another example is this:

    • There are 3 major skills trees: Class, Weapon and Armor
    • From the 3 main skill trees are 6 – 7 sub-skill trees that allow you to specialize in weapon types (one-handed, staves, dual wielding, etc.), spells and abilities.

     

    So, if those sub-skills include healing or defensive bonuses(tanking) then the lines between the base classes will become blurred and we have GW2.

    If they do not, then we have something close to the trinity, because of the base classes.

    I think its obvious we wouldn't get a healing spell as part of our weapon skill tree, but who knows...lol

    I really want to see those skill trees!

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