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B2P

cybersrscybersrs New York, NYPosts: 153Member Uncommon
Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?
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Comments

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    I thought the b2p format would fit this game really well....Those of us that have played their other single player games had no problem with a one time purchase and this one should have been the same.....As long as they are using the sub model I have no interest.....To me that ship sailed long ago.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    GW2 is not WS!

    You are comparing apples and oranges.

     

    GW2 never spent a dime on elder game content.

    WS is all about elder game.  That costs a lot of money to develop, and even more more to continually update.

  • cybersrscybersrs New York, NYPosts: 153Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    Greed?

  • cinoscinos LondonPosts: 963Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    Still making things up I see.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

    A F2P game, you can play for FREE

    A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

    You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

    By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

    So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

    You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

    "0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

    So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

    I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

    A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

    Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

    I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,496Member Uncommon

    "A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that."

    This is only the case in poorly monetized games - look at Tera, Rift, Aion - no pay to win items.

    Diablo 3 is a B2P game with pay to win auction items.

    It's all about individual games and how well (or poorly) item shops are done, the reality is that many F2P games have no dedicated monetization teams so their item shops are abysmal.

    Business intelligence and monetization is very costly to do right, many Dev studios don't have the staff nor funds to do it successfully.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    The funny thing is, you are basing the 3 that are coming out as some sort of bases that F2P doesn't work. This only means you have no idea what you are talking about. I work in the game industry and I have heard no such news.

    On the contrary, these 3 games that decided to use a P2P model is an oddity to a lot of us professionals as it really doesn't make much sense why they decided this. The P2P model has show a major decline in the past. Game have tried and failed. A lot of "players" make the excuse that the game was bad, however, that is just an excuse for the people who like the P2P model.

    Fact is, games that switch models to F2P have shown a lot more success then any P2P MMO.

    B2P model that GW2 has been shown to work perfectly fine. Also your claims, about GW2 are false. Just 3 months ago there was an article at gamesindustry.biz confirming this. GW2 sales have dropped some, but they sold over 3 million copies and just about a week ago they won the title of fastest selling MMO.

    Nice try though :3.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    "A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that."

    This is only the case in poorly monetized games - look at Tera, Rift, Aion - no pay to win items.

    Diablo 3 is a B2P game with pay to win auction items.

    It's all about individual games and how well (or poorly) item shops are done, the reality is that many F2P games have no dedicated monetization teams so their item shops are abysmal.

    Business intelligence and monetization is very costly to do right, many Dev studios don't have the staff nor funds to do it successfully.

    I agree, I am just pointing out a B2P games, is no likely to ever have pay to win items.

    A lot of F2P have pretty good cash shops in my opinion, but they are still more likely to have bad ones in comparison. Though I suppose there are more F2P games then there are B2P. So it's really hard to make a fair claim. So I will give this one to you. You are right.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

    A F2P game, you can play for FREE

    A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

    You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

    By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

    So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

    You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

    "0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

    So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

    I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

    A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

    Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

    I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

    Thing is, that all your  rhetoric bears no resemblance to the reality I experience playing both, GW2 and Rift - if anything, the F2P game, Rift, is more completely playable without spending a dime than GW2 is...and they both have the same exact chest + key gambling mini game... except in Rift, the keys drop far more frequently - I have zero unopened chests in Rift but I have a whole shit-pile of them in GW2. Walks like a duck...

    Now in WOW, which I regretfully must admit I played recently out of expansion curiosity, there are no chest + key gambling minigames... nor is the vanity cash shop accessible within the game as is the case in GW2, Rift, Neverwinter, etc. No in-game cash shop... mo key + chest crap... no duck walking here.

    The resemblance is not in the financial model it's in the things that they have in common while you play the game long after the "entry fee" is forgotten.

    And dude, ease off on the condescension unless you actually do want us to get back into it... just saying.

     

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

    A F2P game, you can play for FREE

    A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

    You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

    By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

    So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

    You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

    "0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

    So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

    I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

    A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

    Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

    I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

    Thing is, that all your  rhetoric bears no resemblance to the reality I experience playing both, GW2 and Rift - if anything, the F2P game, Rift, is more completely playable without spending a dime than GW2 is...and they both have the same exact chest + key gambling mini game... except in Rift, the keys drop far more frequently - I have zero unopened chests in Rift but I have a whole shit-pile of them in GW2. Walks like a duck...

    Now in WOW, which I regretfully must admit I played recently out of expansion curiosity, there are no chest + key gambling minigames... nor is the vanity cash shop accessible within the game as is the case in GW2, Rift, Neverwinter, etc. No in-game cash shop... mo key + chest crap... no duck walking here.

    The resemblance is not in the financial model it's in the things that they have in common while you play the game long after the "entry fee" is forgotten.

    And dude, ease off on the condescension unless you actually do want us to get back into it... just saying.

     

    Thing is, just because GW2 has keys ... doesn't mean all games would. Yes, from your experiences and the games you played, I suppose you could see it like this. However, you have to remember, every game is different. 

    I personally have yet to play a F2P game that required me to HAVE to spend any money, though I admit I spent tons on Mabinogi lol. I also use to play the first Guild Wars, and again, never had to spend a dime.

    TERA on the other hand is the game that pissed me off to no end on the P2P payment model. TERA will be my last P2P game. I refuse to spend that kind of money.

    Also, with as much as I knew about the industry at the time, I should have seen it coming. Should not have fallen for it. I think I spent like over $200 on TERA.

    Now we can all claim that ESO will be different, but no one actually knows for sure. I rather not take the chance. I don't see P2P doing well anymore.

    Sorry for being condescending, I was mostly just being sarcastic and joking around with your comment. I just really think it's kinda silly argument to make.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

    A F2P game, you can play for FREE

    A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

    You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

    By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

    So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

    You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

    "0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

    So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

    I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

    A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

    Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

    I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

    Thing is, that all your  rhetoric bears no resemblance to the reality I experience playing both, GW2 and Rift - if anything, the F2P game, Rift, is more completely playable without spending a dime than GW2 is...and they both have the same exact chest + key gambling mini game... except in Rift, the keys drop far more frequently - I have zero unopened chests in Rift but I have a whole shit-pile of them in GW2. Walks like a duck...

    Now in WOW, which I regretfully must admit I played recently out of expansion curiosity, there are no chest + key gambling minigames... nor is the vanity cash shop accessible within the game as is the case in GW2, Rift, Neverwinter, etc. No in-game cash shop... mo key + chest crap... no duck walking here.

    The resemblance is not in the financial model it's in the things that they have in common while you play the game long after the "entry fee" is forgotten.

    And dude, ease off on the condescension unless you actually do want us to get back into it... just saying.

     

    Thing is, just because GW2 has keys ... doesn't mean all games would. Yes, from your experiences and the games you played, I suppose you could see it like this. However, you have to remember, every game is different. 

    I personally have yet to play a F2P game that required me to HAVE to spend any money, though I admit I spent tons on Mabinogi lol. I also use to play the first Guild Wars, and again, never had to spend a dime.

    TERA on the other hand is the game that pissed me off to no end on the P2P payment model. TERA will be my last P2P game. I refuse to spend that kind of money.

    Also, with as much as I knew about the industry at the time, I should have seen it coming. Should not have fallen for it. I think I spent like over $200 on TERA.

    Now we can all claim that ESO will be different, but no one actually knows for sure. I rather not take the chance. I don't see P2P doing well anymore.

    Sorry for being condescending, I was mostly just being sarcastic and joking around with your comment. I just really think it's kinda silly argument to make.

    Every game is different. That we can agree on.

    Your Mabinogi example is actually very typical. We all THINK we're going to play a F2P game and never spend a dime but the only time that happens, in my experience, is when we actually don't like the game - as was the case with me and Neverwinter - 2 weeks, not a dime spent, and uninstalled from my hard drive.

    If you actually like the F2P game, they will get you and you're likely to spend as much in it as you would have if it'd been a sub game. It's not just a matter of the high-rolling whales subsidizing us all: we're all susceptible to their in-game marketing... anyone who's gone to Costco to buy a turkey and has walked out with a turkey, a coffee maker and a lifetime supply of paper towels can tell you that.

    I also tried Tera but I also left that one quickly--nothing to do with the sub. I just seem to have an aversion to over-the-top graphics, stories and packs of critters eastern MMOs all seem so fond of... I'm a cultural chauvinist I guess.

    I don't know if ESO will be different. I do know that they have a couple of things--especially 3-sided RVR in a gigantic persistent zone--that interest me a lot... + I've been playing TES since Arena so the game world and system is familiar. I would play it regardless of financial model.

    I play them all, lol - just another MMO junkie. But I do know from my own personal experience that if I like an MMO and stick around, I'm just as likely to spend the same $$ on a F2P, B2P or P2P one. At least in a P2P one They're doing the budgeting for me image

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

    I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

    In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

    Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

    I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

    In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

    Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

    I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

    You said F2P = B2P.

    Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

     

    The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

    GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

    Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

    I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

    In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

    Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

    I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

    You said F2P = B2P.

    Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

     

    The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

    GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

    Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

    Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

    I think I'll go with Mike. 

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Well let me think. In a F2P game, there us no entry fee. In a B2P game, there is an entry fee.

    A F2P game, you can play for FREE

    A B2P game, you have to pay the box price.

    You can't just say B2P is F2P with an entry fee. THAT is what makes the 2 different! How is that hard to understand?

    By your standards, P2P would be just F2P + a entry and monthly fee if it had a cash shop.

    So why do people act like it's separate? BECAUSE IT IS! XD You can't call something the same when they are different. The box price makes it different. For something to be the same, it requires things to be equal. Do you know what equal is?

    You know  "0 = 0" correct, "1 = 1" correct, "F = F" correct

    "0 = 1" incorrect, "2 = 3" incorrect, "$0 = $60" Incorrect

    So when you have a game that is free vs a game that is $60 to play .... they are not equal meaning they are not the same thing. Now doesn't it make sense why they are considered 2 different models?

    I also have to point out, a B2P game can take the hit of putting less items in the cash shop since they got that initial $60. While a F2P has to really get you to buy stuff from the shop, so a lot more advertisement and a lot more of game breaking items.

    A B2P game is very unlikely to have pay to win items, while a F2P game is more likely to have items like that.

    Iselin ... Iselin ... Iselin *shakes head back and fourth* tsk tsk ... I think this is like the 5th time you brought this argument up, and I can't let it slide any longer lol.

    I sort of understand how one could think this, but let us be honest here. It's a really stupid argument to make.

    Thing is, that all your  rhetoric bears no resemblance to the reality I experience playing both, GW2 and Rift - if anything, the F2P game, Rift, is more completely playable without spending a dime than GW2 is...and they both have the same exact chest + key gambling mini game... except in Rift, the keys drop far more frequently - I have zero unopened chests in Rift but I have a whole shit-pile of them in GW2. Walks like a duck...

    Now in WOW, which I regretfully must admit I played recently out of expansion curiosity, there are no chest + key gambling minigames... nor is the vanity cash shop accessible within the game as is the case in GW2, Rift, Neverwinter, etc. No in-game cash shop... mo key + chest crap... no duck walking here.

    The resemblance is not in the financial model it's in the things that they have in common while you play the game long after the "entry fee" is forgotten.

    And dude, ease off on the condescension unless you actually do want us to get back into it... just saying.

     

    Thing is, just because GW2 has keys ... doesn't mean all games would. Yes, from your experiences and the games you played, I suppose you could see it like this. However, you have to remember, every game is different. 

    I personally have yet to play a F2P game that required me to HAVE to spend any money, though I admit I spent tons on Mabinogi lol. I also use to play the first Guild Wars, and again, never had to spend a dime.

    TERA on the other hand is the game that pissed me off to no end on the P2P payment model. TERA will be my last P2P game. I refuse to spend that kind of money.

    Also, with as much as I knew about the industry at the time, I should have seen it coming. Should not have fallen for it. I think I spent like over $200 on TERA.

    Now we can all claim that ESO will be different, but no one actually knows for sure. I rather not take the chance. I don't see P2P doing well anymore.

    Sorry for being condescending, I was mostly just being sarcastic and joking around with your comment. I just really think it's kinda silly argument to make.

    Every game is different. That we can agree on.

    Your Mabinogi example is actually very typical. We all THINK we're going to play a F2P game and never spend a dime but the only time that happens, in my experience, is when we actually don't like the game - as was the case with me and Neverwinter - 2 weeks, not a dime spent, and uninstalled from my hard drive.

    If you actually like the F2P game, they will get you and you're likely to spend as much in it as you would have if it'd been a sub game. It's not just a matter of the high-rolling whales subsidizing us all: we're all susceptible to their in-game marketing... anyone who's gone to Costco to buy a turkey and has walked out with a turkey, a coffee maker and a lifetime supply of paper towels can tell you that.

    I also tried Tera but I also left that one quickly--nothing to do with the sub. I just seem to have an aversion to over-the-top graphics, stories and packs of critters eastern MMOs all seem so fond of... I'm a cultural chauvinist I guess.

    I don't know if ESO will be different. I do know that they have a couple of things--especially 3-sided RVR in a gigantic persistent zone--that interest me a lot... + I've been playing TES since Arena so the game world and system is familiar. I would play it regardless of financial model.

    I play them all, lol - just another MMO junkie. But I do know from my own personal experience that if I like an MMO and stick around, I'm just as likely to spend the same $$ on a F2P, B2P or P2P one. At least in a P2P one They're doing the budgeting for me image

    Right, however, I also played mabinogi for 3 - 4 years with out spending a dime. It was only the first year i really spent a lot on it. 

    Also, paying for something is my decision. If you are unable to play a free to play game with out spending money, then you have a shopping problem. Kinda like my mom, she can't play facebook and iphone app games with out spending money on the ones she likes.

    I also didn't mention like the 30 other F2P games I have played and didn't spend a cent on them. That is because I either could not at the time or didn't feel it was worth it. The great thing about that is, YOU are the one who decides if it's worth it. It's not like the company forces you to pay.

    As for the budgeting, I can see how for someone who may spend a lot of money on F2P games or B2P games may like a P2P more. My mom just kinda learned to stay away from those games if you can consider spending money on dragon city staying away lol. -.-

    I personally don't have anything against a P2P model itself. I just don't like that there is a HIGH chance all that money will be wasted in the end just for the game to go F2P later on.

    As for your costco reference .. I get ya. You are right. In free to play MMO games when a new pet comes out ... like a dragon ... eye turn bright and shiny .. mouth opens wide ... must. ... buy.

    *shrugs* If i spend money though, I really don't mind as long as I am getting something I want. P2P however, you really don't know till you buy it. Which sucks.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

    I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

    In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

    Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

    I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

    You said F2P = B2P.

    Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

     

    The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

    GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

    Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

    Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

    I think I'll go with Mike. 

    umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

    Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

     

    Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

    Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    I don't make a differentiation between the two really.  A game is either sub-free or sub-locked in my world.  Sub-locked games are not all the same to me either.  Most have secondary revenue sources like EVE's PLEX, micro-transactions (web or ingme), content gates/DLC costs like box fees and xpacs, and other such stuff.  The thing that binds them all together is you need to have a subscription to access the service.  Sub-free games have all those same trappings but don't require a subscription.

    So yeah, GW2 is pretty much the same as Tera, Rift, TSW or Neverwinter to me on paper at least.  In practice that up front fee means more perks are open from the get go.  In a F2P game you might start with a couple character slots.  In the B2P game I get more at the start.

    Content gating exists in both payment models.  If you don't buy the xpac in either game you can't play that content.  Again, not all sub-games do that, but not all sub-free games do either.  I don't pay extra to see all of Tera or Rift just like some sub games include all their content for the sub-price. If you consider lockboxes content gating then we'll just have to disagree.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by cybersrs
    Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.

    Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?

     

    If GW2 made the best ¨possbible profit, then why is NC soft pushing their next game Wildstar to be P2P with subs?

     

     

    3 major games stepping to a subscription based system tells more then enough.. The only succesfull F2P games are those that try to trick people into subscribing, because thats in their gameworld the only way to get full access to the game..

     

    The well of money from GW2 has actually dried up quickly and NC soft is pushing Arenanet to release an expansion pack..  In my guild GW2 guild noboddy is spending any more real money.. And box sales have dropped, so the free weekend going on now is to actually try and make people buy the box if they like the game.

    Actually Wildstar praised ANet with their model and said they made phnominal success.  They chose not to do it because they did not want to deal with the hassle of figuring out what to put in a CS that would sell.

    P2P is the lazy way out of making a profit which could or could not bite em in the ass later down the road if people leave in droves that is a trend with every P2P themepark game that all of which have converted over to F2P or B2P.  TERA, SWTOR, Rift, DDO, LotRO, The Secret World... think that covers em all.  I can't think of a single themepark game that hasn't dropped their sub model besides WoW.  I doubt Wildstar will be any different nor ESO.

    Summer is ending so naturally companies are advertising their game.  Expansions are nothing new and in fact expected.  Sales might be down but P2P MMOs are not different.  Both with have a huge influx/pike at launch and then downgrades from there and stabilize.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    Because there complete different beasts.  Just compare Neverwinter to GW2 and you have your answer.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,606Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by jesusjuice69
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?

    B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.

    It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.

    By your ridiculous definition everything is free,

    P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.

     

    Seriously?  Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?

     

    What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out

    Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...

    Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business.  Gotcha.

    There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.

    His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time. 

     

    Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in.  Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning?  No.  WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history.  There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game. 

    I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."

    In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.  

    Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?

    I never attacked you personally.  I commented on the facts of your post.

    You said F2P = B2P.

    Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.

     

    The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P.  A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.

    GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW.  However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).

    Trust me, it is not I that is embarrassing you. 

    Let's see...you don't think they're essentially the same after the entry fee... Michael Britton thinks they are (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7698/The-Return-of-Subs-FFXIV-WildStar-and-ESO.html).... who to side with? Michael or some guy who's too dumb to figure out that the real Dave Mark from EQ Next was "iadavemark" and attacks him as a troll (reference: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/393576/page/27)

    I think I'll go with Mike. 

    umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.

    Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P

     

    Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."

    Too funny. :3 Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.

    It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.

    As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.

    I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.

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