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So this is why Ghostcrawler is trying to destroy WoW?

VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon

 

Apparently he feels that hardcore players do not care about the game. After reading that article associated with the tweet I can only assume that he has been threatened one too many times and decided to be vindictive turning WoW into the horrible game it is today.

It is pretty comical that he would make that comment when it is the casual players who have done more to destroy WoW than anything the hardcore crowd could ever dream of. Watch this if you haven't. It pretty much sums up what WoW has become these days.

 

 

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Comments

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    This isnt really relevant. The game is still great and its still old, let politics be politics and just play and enjoy. If its not hardcore enough then go play something else.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member

    It is true, though.

     

    So focued on one aspect of a game, hardcore players see only one part for a lot of them. Not that the game is a living ecology.

     

    I play a healer and love healing, and talk endlessly about both, but it's important not to overlook how healing works with tanking and DPS. Same goes with content and even class designs. I love playing a Holy paladin, but you can't just see the game as Holy paladin healer only. That's a disservice.

     

    Where Ghostcrawler gets it wrong is when Blizzard screws the pooch, though. They got to know by now this constant changing of classes and environments is taking it's toll on players. If they continue with this they will complete that self-fulfilling prophecy of "only Blizzard can kill WoW".

     

    People don't leave games they like to play. 5 million left in 4 years. The design is off, it's not meeting expectations. Players can blame it on this or that generation of players, but 5 million is including old skool players, too. I'll say it for the nth time again, WotLK had the right mix of ease and difficulty for a MMORPG. Not an eSport. Not a MMOFPS. Not a MOBA. Not a RTS. The gating in WoW is bleeding the game as well, be it gating our abilities; our online game time; storyline even -- what are we really fighting in MoP? Sha? Garrosh? What? That was lost in all of this raid this or PvP that. We lack a purpose, a direction and our leaders are AWOL again. Will killing Garrosh make Azeroth whole again? Is their any closure in any expansion?

     

    When I think about when Princess Di died the world had a chance to mourne. Did gamers have that when Arathas died? No. Ending of a series without even a pause over the gravity of it all, denied. Shocked into a new timeline and characters that are as fleeting as Justin Bieber and Madonna. WoW doesn't feel the same, as somewhere in our hearts and minds  we're still in WotLK. Bolvar is there, still...

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Wow lol. That last post was all over the place. I like what wow currently is... Of course, I'm an evil casual gamer so I spose my opinion doesn't count. 
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Praetalus
    Wow lol. That last post was all over the place. I like what wow currently is... Of course, I'm an evil casual gamer so I spose my opinion doesn't count. 

     

    Why?

     

    Ease?

     

    Story (or lack of one)?

     

    Combat?

     

    Ghostcrawler is out there trying to dig out new ideas and work out problems in design, and we get a laugh and "meh, I like it" response from the poster child of casual gaming.

     

    Probably will claim a TV dinner tasted good too. -_-

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member

    So in response to an article about cyber bullying, harassment, and death threats to Devs GC goes on further blaming the hard core players?  How does this relate to the article.... at all?  Maybe I missed it as I skimmed through the article but it seemed to me it was all about harassment and how it drives Devs away and costs the industry as a whole.

    Didn't GC blame hard core players for his bad decisions in the past though?  Seems like he's vindictive of the hard core players and are his scapegoat for all the woes of WoW even though they are the ones the made WoW what it is today even though it has been more focused on casuals the past few xpacs.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    It is true, though.

     

    So focued on one aspect of a game, hardcore players see only one part for a lot of them. Not that the game is a living ecology.

     

    I play a healer and love healing, and talk endlessly about both, but it's important not to overlook how healing works with tanking and DPS. Same goes with content and even class designs. I love playing a Holy paladin, but you can't just see the game as Holy paladin healer only. That's a disservice.

     

    Where Ghostcrawler gets it wrong is when Blizzard screws the pooch, though. They got to know by now this constant changing of classes and environments is taking it's toll on players. If they continue with this they will complete that self-fulfilling prophecy of "only Blizzard can kill WoW".

     

    People don't leave games they like to play. 5 million left in 4 years. The design is off, it's not meeting expectations. Players can blame it on this or that generation of players, but 5 million is including old skool players, too. I'll say it for the nth time again, WotLK had the right mix of ease and difficulty for a MMORPG. Not an eSport. Not a MMOFPS. Not a MOBA. Not a RTS. The gating in WoW is bleeding the game as well, be it gating our abilities; our online game time; storyline even -- what are we really fighting in MoP? Sha? Garrosh? What? That was lost in all of this raid this or PvP that. We lack a purpose, a direction and our leaders are AWOL again. Will killing Garrosh make Azeroth whole again? Is their any closure in any expansion?

     

    When I think about when Princess Di died the world had a chance to mourne. Did gamers have that when Arathas died? No. Ending of a series without even a pause over the gravity of it all, denied. Shocked into a new timeline and characters that are as fleeting as Justin Bieber and Madonna. WoW doesn't feel the same, as somewhere in our hearts and minds  we're still in WotLK. Bolvar is there, still...

    I wouldn't say that Blizz's design is off per say, the game is pretty dated and people have played it for many years.  People grow tired and need something new and different.  If they really want to say WoW then a refreshing reboot is needed like GW2.  WoW is getting to a stage where is needs to be retired and a new flagship MMO needs to be made for Blizzard.  With FF XIV ARR, ESO, EQN, Wildstar, those games will whittle away what little subs they have left in those accounts that are pay a sub.

    2014 is going to be a rough year for Blizzard.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    Best moment in WoW:

    - Ulduar. Best raid of the game for me. Even better than the Vanilla ones, and much better than the bloated TBC ones with those awfully boring keying mechanics (aka grinds). The game was at its peak, classes were pretty well balanced, the game was FUN and challenging (getting the Ulduar achievements was both). WotLK = best expansion for WoW, possibly best expansion of any MMO I had the pleasure to play (and I played most from UO to now). I also liked ICC, some very fun fights there like Prof. Putricide (heroic).

     

    Worst moments in WoW:

    - When I saw what they did to the world in Cataclysm. Turned the whole game into a linear quest grind. Destroyed beautiful zones to turn almost the whole world into something awfully disfigured.

    - When I saw what they did to character development, classes, and most awful, talents, in Pandaria (something which was already started in Cataclysm).

    Still playing occasionally, there are still aspects that are fun, but the "Cataclysm+Pandaria" duo pretty much killed a good part of what I loved about the game. And that has nothing to do with "hardcore versus casual". It's just that they changed a game I loved so much that it's no longer the same game, even if still not awfully bad.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member


    Originally posted by furbans

    I wouldn't say that Blizz's design is off per say, the game is pretty dated and people have played it for many years.  People grow tired and need something new and different.  If they really want to say WoW then a refreshing reboot is needed like GW2.  WoW is getting to a stage where is needs to be retired and a new flagship MMO needs to be made for Blizzard.  With FF XIV ARR, ESO, EQN, Wildstar, those games will whittle away what little subs they have left in those accounts that are pay a sub. 2014 is going to be a rough year for Blizzard.



    After reading more of Ghostcrawler's Twitter feed, can definitely see it's a design problem. But that's also the culture within Blizzard itself (some of the dynamics was seen in the Diablo III Facebook incident).


    The game is fine. The direction is not.


    Don't lose millions of players because a game is old. There's many things in the world that has a steady following despite it's age. For example, even before Star Trek had all these spinoffs and movies, it's fanbase grew despite being off TV. To this day folks love the old series, too.


    So that's a cop out excuse. Old things are still loved and nurtured.


    Why isn't WoW?

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vutar

     

    Apparently he feels that hardcore players do not care about the game. After reading that article associated with the tweet I can only assume that he has been threatened one too many times and decided to be vindictive turning WoW into the horrible game it is today.

    It is pretty comical that he would make that comment when it is the casual players who have done more to destroy WoW than anything the hardcore crowd could ever dream of. Watch this if you haven't. It pretty much sums up what WoW has become these days.

    Hardcore raiders on the whole are singularly focused on just a single aspect of the game.  Their only concern is the progression race/treadmill and for the most part could care less about the rest of the game.  If they do solo content, small group content, PVP, or crafting it's because either it's a distraction between raids or something they have to do to be a better raider.  

    Hardcore raiders also tend to be very protective of t heir status as the top activity and will make noise like you wouldn't believe if they feel some other activity might even come close to matching it.  PVP gear sets and the separate stats that they spawn are a great example of this.

     

     

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

     


    Originally posted by furbans

     

    I wouldn't say that Blizz's design is off per say, the game is pretty dated and people have played it for many years.  People grow tired and need something new and different.  If they really want to say WoW then a refreshing reboot is needed like GW2.  WoW is getting to a stage where is needs to be retired and a new flagship MMO needs to be made for Blizzard.  With FF XIV ARR, ESO, EQN, Wildstar, those games will whittle away what little subs they have left in those accounts that are pay a sub. 2014 is going to be a rough year for Blizzard.


     


    After reading more of Ghostcrawler's Twitter feed, can definitely see it's a design problem. But that's also the culture within Blizzard itself (some of the dynamics was seen in the Diablo III Facebook incident).


    The game is fine. The direction is not.


    Don't lose millions of players because a game is old. There's many things in the world that has a steady following despite it's age. For example, even before Star Trek had all these spinoffs and movies, it's fanbase grew despite being off TV. To this day folks love the old series, too.


    So that's a cop out excuse. Old things are still loved and nurtured.


    Why isn't WoW?

    What bout EQ1 and EQ2?  They have been whittled away too.  People grow tired of WoW doing the same old same old thing.  Old things might be loved and nutured but not by the majority.  If that was the case then why so many came to GW2?  Because it provided something different, new, and refreshing.  Many times has the forums here discussed the direction of MMO and numerous times it has brought up that stagnation is hindering the industry.  Doing the same old same old will only result in being left in the dust.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    *facepalm* its the hardcore players that DO care about long term condition of the game, they are the ones that dedicate the most time and are the most likely to stay loyal in games. Its the complete opposite through and through. The problem is so many games are made such short term, combined with the large variety that even hardcore players are changing and many have a harder attaching to a game BECAUSE its not giving them much to connect with.

     

    I can't recall a single casual friend I ever seen stick with a game and remain dedicated to it for remotely anywhere close to me. Most will move on within a month or two and not bother. Specially with F2P games Its hard to find a single casual player that will stick it out anymore in a single game, and catering to casuals doesn't help, it only causes hardcore players to do the same. 

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTPosts: 607Member

    Maybe there are quite a few groups in between vague definitions of "hardcore" and "casual".

    I'm not hardcore but I found WoW both too easy and anti-creativity at the same time. Vanilla was better.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    Ghostcrawler, IMO, changes the game too much and not always for the better.  The warrior class, for example, is not longer fun for me to play because to play optimally, I have to arrange macros to handle the 20 abilities I need to use to maximize DPS.  Just too many frickin skills for a character that screams, kicks, and swings a sword.

    And don't get me started on what they did to Shamans.  Will never play that class again.

    I agree with folks who have the sentiment that WOW devs have driven this game down.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    We herby proclaim him Darth Shadow-Knee and accuse him of having his IPs crossed rather than his sabers.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by furbans

    So in response to an article about cyber bullying, harassment, and death threats to Devs GC goes on further blaming the hard core players?  How does this relate to the article.... at all?  Maybe I missed it as I skimmed through the article but it seemed to me it was all about harassment and how it drives Devs away and costs the industry as a whole.

    Didn't GC blame hard core players for his bad decisions in the past though?  Seems like he's vindictive of the hard core players and are his scapegoat for all the woes of WoW even though they are the ones the made WoW what it is today even though it has been more focused on casuals the past few xpacs.

     

    A note: GC's not going to talk about it, but showing from his Twitter responses he is hyper aware of criticism. He surrounds himself with "yes, men" types now. Though he still can't control the message off of turf, which he tries to do. Back in 2011 he blogged about the conditions he would return again, and I flat out told him conditionals like that aren't enforceable beyond Blizzard's property.

     

    Remember in Cata WoW General forum had a death threat warning stickied, so I suspect some irate gamer went w-a-y over the top and rattled him. Shortly later they banned the whole lot of us (6100 posts...poof). -_- In GC's mind anything he doesn't agree with that is a debate is "toxic", and /ignored (and if you wonder why WoW is what it is today, tunnel vision causes serious issues).

     

    We're the enemy, his inner circle are his friends deal.

  • NasherUKNasherUK Secret cavePosts: 476Member

    Ghostcrawler is Mr. Bad Decision himself. He always was

    Ever since they appointed him the game has been slowly declining, that says something...

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon

    There is this crowd of hardcore raiders who jump from new release to new release to try and clear the raid content as fast as possible. These people could careless if whatever game stays around, because they wont be around regardless.

     

    I assume this is the "hardcore" he's speaking of.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    There is this crowd of hardcore raiders who jump from new release to new release to try and clear the raid content as fast as possible. These people could careless if whatever game stays around, because they wont be around regardless.

     

    I assume this is the "hardcore" he's speaking of.

    It is, people often like to consider themselves part of the "hardcore" group because they play a lot.

    The hardcore players are the ones who will log into 25 warlock alts to soulstone an entire raid thereby forcing blizzard to nerf soulstone.

    The hardcore players are the ones who create things like DBM, Gearscore, DPS, target of target cast bars meters and create a culture of elitism. Notice how those three mods alone have done more harm to the MMO industry than anything else. Blizzard is always playing catch-up with the hardcore players because they only seek to exploit and beat things long before everyone else.

    The hardcore players are the ones who log on at 4am to win trade in Arenas to get the gear and special title mount.

    The hardcore players are the ones who share accounts so they can stay logged in and farm BG's (during Vanilla) for 2 months straight. Someone might be able to stay awake for a few days, but you can't play 24/7 for weeks/months at a time - you're obviously account sharing.

    The list goes on, but the "hardcore" players (and we're really talking about a small percentage of the population) really are toxic because they don't care that their actions might harm the game for others, only that they got their shinies first.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    Ghostcrawler is an untalented bodger who successfully grafted so many single player mechanics to attract every player from every genre into playing 1 game that the result = mess with a huge player base, a contradiction that has stifled the market almost to the point of destruction.  As soon as developers of mmorgs start dribbling on about 'exciting things to do' and 'interesting things' and 'reward v cost' or how important fast travel is - you know you have a weak journeyman developer who has gravitated too far up the food chain who resorts to 'mechanics' without in depth understanding of the mmorg genre.  I would have sympathy if he had a limited budget, but he doesnt he has a gross budget beyond anything available to any developer/designer in the history of gaming - and what do they spend it on - endless firefighting of balancing issues.  cant see wood for trees...

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • NasherUKNasherUK Secret cavePosts: 476Member
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Ghostcrawler is an untalented bodger who successfully grafted so many single player mechanics to attract every player from every genre into playing 1 game that the result = mess with a huge player base, a contradiction that has stifled the market almost to the point of destruction.  As soon as developers of mmorgs start dribbling on about 'exciting things to do' and 'interesting things' and 'reward v cost' or how important fast travel is - you know you have a weak journeyman developer who has gravitated too far up the food chain who resorts to 'mechanics' without in depth understanding of the mmorg genre.  I would have sympathy if he had a limited budget, but he doesnt he has a gross budget beyond anything available to any developer/designer in the history of gaming - and what do they spend it on - endless firefighting of balancing issues.  cant see wood for trees...

    Yep. I don't understand how else they could never get balance right. Yet other MMOs have had it almost spot on before beta ended (e.g. SWTOR has always had pretty good balance in both pve and pvp and most of their budget went on voice actors).

  • DemrocksDemrocks wonderlandPosts: 124Member

    Ghostcrawler taught he could be on par with Tigole aka Jeff Kaplan.

    Instead he did it in reverse.

    Tigole was one with the community, he was like that in EQ and was like that in WoW.

    He raided, he pvp'd, he could create amazing things.

    Once he left the building and Ghostcrawler took over the game was done.

     

     

  • GrummusGrummus Nantucket, RIPosts: 125Member
    Over half of WOTLK's content was cut.

    Instead of fleshing out the expansion they knocked ToC out then left the ICC shitfest up for a year. They've done all of this to themselves with poor design decisions, execution of said decisions and general corner cutting. More casual, more special ed is NOT the solution. Most of us that quit would be more than happy to play again but 1-80 & ilvl 232 is the only time things were "right" after that everything has been one failure upon the next.

    LFR is a horrible idea, the talent changes and exp rate increases even more so. The only good thing they've done or said they were going to is cross realm servers, as there have been a dozen since 2009 that needed merged into the rest at very least.
  • UtinniUtinni Richmond, VAPosts: 380Member Uncommon

    The funny thing about this is that Hardcore gamers aren't the ones who complain and threaten. Only pug noobs who want to beat some other trade chat asshole on meters complain on forums about balance and the direction of the game.

    that being said...

     

    WTB WoW Progression server. thx

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    Lol ^^ far from the truth, hard core raiding guilds are obsessed with meters and why person x done y on world of logs etc, fun rarely came into it.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Demrocks

    Ghostcrawler taught he could be on par with Tigole aka Jeff Kaplan.

    Instead he did it in reverse.

    Tigole was one with the community, he was like that in EQ and was like that in WoW.

    He raided, he pvp'd, he could create amazing things.

    Once he left the building and Ghostcrawler took over the game was done.

     

    Whatever the outcome is, since Ghostcrawler became the lead, the "soul" of the game has died. We have complexity over function problem in class design, now. That complexity even gets in the way of using our abilities (having 1 on the move heal, for example, in a sea of AoEs..."Houston, we have a problem...").

     

    Taxonomy looks good on paper, but humans aren't amoebas. They like different things for different reasons, and behave accordingly.

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