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the players it caters to entered the genre when it was P2P dominant.
Here's the thing, no one can be certain and whether it can flourish as a P2P game rest squarely on the developers shoulders. I personally do not believe there is some paradigm shift to F2P because P2P is outdated, games like WoW and EvE are doing just fine. I feel the reason for this false positive of F2P = better than P2P, is because we have been inundated with nothing but a string of mediocre games at best in the past few years.
Every game you have listed has had some major flaw that have caused it to be abandoned by player populations at large. The industry has just gotten into a rut in general trying to chase the formula that made WoW successful and they keep failing. Other than mediocre titles, the only other thing that pushes F2P/B2P are developers knowing they can get a large enough segment of the population to pay much more than they would have under a P2P model. This creates an environment that balances between P2Win and games that tend to be interesting enough to spend money in, but shallow overall. Which allows company to squeeze more short term money out of their players instead of focusing on keeping players long term.
The only game I feel that has used a free type model for the better is GW2, which was B2P. With that said, even though I loved the game at first and used the Gem Shop (short term) for some cosmetics, in the end, I got bored very fast. The game just felt shallow to me and I had no reason to stay. But as I go back over what I spent on bags and supplies, it came out to about $15 a month and a tad more sometimes when averaged. However, they did do something right by having new monthly content, even if it is only so so. this allows them to pull those short term burnouts back in occasionally and get them to buy something shinny, even if they rarely play.
Obviously this is all just my opinion and others will feel vastly different. Some of those different opinions will come from the "I want nice stuff and I want people to give it to me free, no matter how much it costs them" crowed or the part of the population that has game ADD, and probably a segment who actually think these games are cheaper in the long run (and they can be for a small bit of the population). But when it comes down to it, companies make money and if it was cheaper for the population as a whole, that would mean less money and that would not be acceptable to them. Finally, I think a P2P can do wonderful in this market, but it needs to get over this slump of mediocrity we have been bombarded with. If it cannot do this, it might as well go F2P, but only because its really not worth our time or money....
I was wondering about that as well, so I watched the latest trailer / gameplay footage.
It looks fairly kid friendly so maybe NCSoft / CS is banking on parents keeping active subs for their children? $15 / month is a very cheap babysitter. It has some quirky humor also to keep parents amused as well.
Overall though I'm amazed it didn't go B2P, since it isn't really offering anything other games don't already have, and the housing model offers a huge potential for a successful cashshop w/ B2P.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcpRecognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
P2P!! If it keep the freeloaders out. I'm in!!!
It won't. No one has given a compelling reason why this will do well. The same goes for FFXIV:ARR, only they aren't shooting for mass appeal like Wildstar so they might actually survive and flourish on a niche sub user base.
Subs are really only going to work for niche games going forward.
OP pretty much echoed my thoughts on Carbines business model. Too many times have devs tooted their horn on how their game is so great or how it is different or why you should play their game vs WoW.
The market has expanded tremendously with EQN, Rift, Neverwinter, ect ect that makes P2P MMOs hard to justify. I'm dubious that Wildstar will be much different.
I like all the trailers and game concepts but with their business model announcement I'll be waiting on the side lines to see how it pans out. If the game is all this and that then I would gladly pay to retail + sub but too many times have I fallen for the eagerness of a new shiney MMO and delve head first instead of waiting and testing the waters.
2014 will be a very good year just with single player RPGs like Wastelands 2 and Project Eternity and the prospect of EQN so I'll be biding my time.
Originally posted by furbans OP pretty much echoed my thoughts on Carbines business model. Too many times have devs tooted their horn on how their game is so great or how it is different or why you should play their game vs WoW. The market has expanded tremendously with EQN, Rift, Neverwinter, ect ect that makes P2P MMOs hard to justify. I'm dubious that Wildstar will be much different. I like all the trailers and game concepts but with their business model announcement I'll be waiting on the side lines to see how it pans out. If the game is all this and that then I would gladly pay to retail + sub but too many times have I fallen for the eagerness of a new shiney MMO and delve head first instead of waiting and testing the waters. 2014 will be a very good year just with single player RPGs like Wastelands 2 and Project Eternity and the prospect of EQN so I'll be biding my time.
Name a F2P MMORPG that isn't shit.
Go on, I will wait. Ohh, what is that? There aren't any...well damn!
How long do you think it will take? 20 years?
Well you keep on waiting, and I will enjoy WS!
Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by furbans OP pretty much echoed my thoughts on Carbines business model. Too many times have devs tooted their horn on how their game is so great or how it is different or why you should play their game vs WoW. The market has expanded tremendously with EQN, Rift, Neverwinter, ect ect that makes P2P MMOs hard to justify. I'm dubious that Wildstar will be much different. I like all the trailers and game concepts but with their business model announcement I'll be waiting on the side lines to see how it pans out. If the game is all this and that then I would gladly pay to retail + sub but too many times have I fallen for the eagerness of a new shiney MMO and delve head first instead of waiting and testing the waters. 2014 will be a very good year just with single player RPGs like Wastelands 2 and Project Eternity and the prospect of EQN so I'll be biding my time.
The greatest irony about the f2p market is that the former p2p mmos are their best games. lol
Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!
Originally posted by Slappy1 I see the game going ftp within 6-9 month's or so.I just don't see this pay model working and with other ftp options that are just as good,nahh.
You haven't played it, but the other options are just as good? lol
Doing well is just an opinion,i don't believe in any form of free loading,your not going to get money from a stone.
A sub fee works because it gives the developer a MUCH better idea on how to handle it's resources,there is a lot less guess work.
The only thing i question is their over confidence in their own game,they need to get in more touch with the community.
FFXI for example has more content than ANY MMORPG on the planet,that game never had big numbers.Wow had big numbers and all it did was yellow marker questing,poor graphics,and instances,so not like it delivered a big time Triple A effort.Even the START of Wow is quite uninspiring,you are tossed into a boring wilderness with a few NPC's and yellow markers,not a very exciting way to entice gamer's.
Point is success has a LOT of luck behind it,timing is huge,marketing is huge and a lot of BS PR work seems to work wonders as well.There is a LOT more to success than simply having confidence that you are delivering the content.
None the less,imo they are doing the right thing,i like their pay model at least on the surface it looks good.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by velmax In the past few years SWTOR, Rift, The Secret World, Aion, Tera and tons of more mmo's have gone F2P. What makes you certain that THIS game will do it right?
1. It's cartoony look that all of the current players in the number 1 MMORPG in the nation will be looking at. That didn't exist for those other games you mentioned.
2. A lot of the employees of the company that make this game are from the number 1 MMORPG in the nation. That didn't exist for those other games you mentioned. Sure there may have been 1 or two or a few but not like this company which is based in the same area as the other company (around the Los Angeles area).
3. Player housing is designed into the game from the ground up, not as an add-on later after the game was put together. This is HUGE! This doesn't exist in any of the games you mentioned nor in most of the MMORPGs available.
4. The PvP aspect of this game is more similar to the number 1 MMORPG than those other MMORPGs you've mentioned.
There is no reason to think Wildstar has it right assuming its even possible to get and hold onto a large sub base over a long period of time. Lets not forget, the cash shop-less sub model can only work by having at least X number of subs (based on how much was spent/is being spent on the game etc).
A smaller game can do sub and find a niche, because its costs are lower. A big AAA title cost ALOT to make in today's world. What that means is that the game needs to retain a higher number of people than older games like WoW or DAOC. Why didn't SW or Tor or Tera stay sub? One reason was because, there are sooo many games in the market that it was impossible for them to hold onto enough people over the long haul.
Either Wildstar understands the current market and is just doing a cash grab then will add some trial/ftp/btp when they have milked all the subbers dry.
They don't understand the market or think they are that one special pony that will win where every other new AAA mmo failed.
Oh and all that Wow talk, remember WoW is/was a big ip. Wildstar isn't
But hey spend your money however you want, but understand it will add some sort of cashshop/ftp down the road. Then again, after 4-6 months you might have played your fill and won't care anyway?
Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by Slappy1 I see the game going ftp within 6-9 month's or so.I just don't see this pay model working and with other ftp options that are just as good,nahh.
How do you know I haven't played it?Stop assuming!!!
here's another for you,even if the game played as well as WoW and has housing,it's below what I can play for free.I can play Rift/Neverwinter/EQ2/PoE/Tera and so on for free,why would I pay $15 a month for less?Rift offers more for free.
Originally posted by Slappy1 Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by Slappy1 I see the game going ftp within 6-9 month's or so.I just don't see this pay model working and with other ftp options that are just as good,nahh.
Because it's new.
I'll pay for the community.
I recently gave RIFT another go, logged out of 3 different servers because of gross convos in chat. Worse even than the Darkfall chat, and that is saying something.
Tera....well lets see a F2P community that can't let go of 1 race being "child LIKE", and therefore if you play one, you are a "pedo".
I can't speak to the others since I haven't played them. But I have played other F2P games and well I will leave it at, " I have enough anecdotal evidence that it is more than a trend to find crappy communities."
GW2 seems to be an exception, but there is the box sale that may be a barrier to many fools.
The only thing certain in the entire field of mmos is: The Players on this site will probably† hate* whatever you make.
*In the unlikely event that some do like it, the game-specific message board will in inundated with vitriol, until all expressions of happiness are erased and the Threat has passed.
†Trend first established in 2003, and continues unabated; with a single exception (EVE), receiving remarkably good local press and generally accepted as the Great White Hope of Sandbox; may be receiving active and ongoing viral marketing from several sources.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Hard to say without playing the game, eh?
All of those games you listed are post WoW clones that follow the same design model. They all have huge doses of solo ez mode. Years and millions of dollars spent on making content players obliterate very quickly and that has little replay value because the solo content was so distinct, well done, memorable, fixed, rigid, static. Then they didn't have enough endgame and/or had broken endgame. This model isn't worth a sub.
Single player games aren't worth a sub and if there isn't enough to do period, like not enough endgame or other diversions for downtime between endgame events, it's not worth a sub.
I actually think Rift IS or WAS worth a sub but the game is so somewhat generic even with deep lore and one of the best character systems in existence that it somehow just lacks appeal to many players. It also has stupidly easy and generic leveling that just isn't all that great even if the instances you can do while leveling and the planar content ARE very good. The character races are basically humans. The mobs aren't from the typical Tolkien set. I don't know what it is. The quality of instances and raids is on par with WoW. The planar content (rifts, events, invasions, etc) give you a ton of extra potential stuff to do at all levels.
I stopped playing Rift to hop to SWTOR, which ended up being a short term deal since SWTOR epitomizes the post WoW clone fail design. I didn't leave Rift because of the sub, or getting tired of it, or anything like that. I was full on in the raiding progression and loving the content. I just got lured away. Plus I started Rift after 6.5 years of WoW and very intense raiding, guild leading, raid leading, and I was somewhat burnt on raiding and didn't intend to raid in Rift but of course it happened and I was getting to the point of not wanting to deal with elitist d-bag guilds to get deeper in progression. My somewhat casual guild had reached it's limit.
By the time I was done with SWTOR GW2 hooked me and ended up being an even bigger disappointment since it's not even really an MMORPG and is more of a single player game - good game, but not a good MMORPG.
Then me and friends checked out TSW and loved it. Even with the heavy emphasis on solo leveling that content is amazingly well done and fun. People I know who typically hate leveling loved the TSW solo content and finished it up long after we didn't need it to level anymore. Truly remarkable. TSW has a slick character system and some of my favorite instances in all of MMORPG history (little to no trash, emphasis on fun boss fights, excellent "elite" mode instances with some hard fights and almost raid-like mechanics here and there). TSW's problem is just nowhere near enough content for endgame. And funcom is inept. Funcom's idea of patching in content after release is to spend 2 months creating content for soloists to obliterate in 2-4 hours instead of expanding end game. So...people get done, have nothing to do, and they're gone. Maybe come back for that 2-4 hours 2 months later when the next installment hits. Or just uninstall and be done with it since a few hours of new solo ez-mode is still useless solo ez-mode.
By the time I got back to reconsidering Rift it had an xpac that I feel was poorly executed and had gone F2P. Rift has one of the better F2P implimentations except for the whole REX thing where cheating losers can buy game currency for cash. That's a deal breaker for me. Facilitating cheating and having so many people willingly cheat is just a "no."
What I can say is that F2P is complete and utter trash. It's an ok model for some genres - like it works well in a game like LoL where the stuff you buy has nothing to do with your success. For MMORPGs, it's the worst thing ever because it always involves pay to win, immersion destroying fluffy crap, or worse, the ability to outright cheat and buy game currency for cash.
Success in RPGs and MMORPGs should be about how much and how well you play. Success in MMORPGs should also be about how well you leverage social to make friends, find a guild that matches you, and how much you can accomplish via teamwork, since solo is hollow and easy by comparison. MMORPGs should not be about how much you're willing to pay or how much you're willing to cheat to get ahead. Or a mini/side game of how much can I play without paying because the world owes me everything including multi-million dollar gaming entertainment.
F2P players in MMORPGs are of a lower overall quality for the most part and when MMORPGs go F2P their overall quality tanks. Support and GMing are reduced and lower quality. Etc. F2P for MMORPGs is a model that appeals to people who don't want to pay for entertainment or who don't want to stick with one game primarily for a long period of time. Ie, it appeals to people who aren't core MMORPG players.
I see MMORPGs as having 2 audiences. The core players, the types who want to group a lot, who want to stick with one game for a long time, who want progression, who want strong guilds and community - the type who played MMORPGs when they first came out and this was all there was.
And then for whatever reason MMORPG devs decided to go for broader appeal and mutilated a successful formula to try to appeal to more casual players who don't really have the same style or desires as core players.
All the post WoW clones fail because they are trying to be everything for everybody. From core to casual, from PvE to PvP, they all try to do everything and ultimately don't do enough for any particular audience and end up not holding on to much of anyone.
The GW2/TESO model is saying, screw grouping, let's just make single player games that are online. This works great for the casuals who don't really want serious MMORPG elements. This kind of game isn't worth a sub because it's a lighter experience and players are more likely to come and go or play more casually (not as intensely as you would with a beefier and real MMORPG). F2P works ok here even with all of it's suck because you just won't get subs with this style of game. I think Z is smoking crack to think TESO will survive as sub-based when it's not really an MMORPG.
What's lacking today is a modern MMORPG with the more classic style of group heavy play at all levels, challenge at all levels, and beefy progression that can go on for years. A game worth a sub.
But, it's really hard to say whether WildStar is going to be that game. It has some intriguing elements and design ideas towards that goal.
IMO, their CREDD thing is a collasal mistake. A game that costs 60 for the box and ~15/mo should not also have the worst of cash shops, the facilitated cheating of buying game currency for cash, in it as well. For me that's an immediate no sale. I will not pay to play along side cheaters.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.