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Truly fun MMO's scare me...and have quests that are NOT scripted

AlastiAlasti Martinez, CAPosts: 280Member

I've posted about this in the past, but its been a while... what I miss the MOST about games in general is the "Fear Factor"...the Fear of DEATH.  Let me explain by giving you a few examples of what I'm talking about:

 

1)  I played Ultima Online the day it came out.  In that game, when a monster killed you, first of all...you became a ghost, and had to run to a healer to be revived.  ALL of your stuff was left on your corpse, which very quickly went away, leaving all your stuff on the ground for anyone to pick up.  Instantly, whatever you were doing in the game before became secondary and a NEW quest began....GET MY CORPSE!  If you were lucky enough to get back to your corpse before any other player snatched your stuff, the moster that killed you had already looted ONE item off your dead carcass.  Now, another quest ensued, and that was to find the Son-of-a-_________ who killed you!  You not only wanted to get revenge, but you are killing him to get the item back!  It is this sort of excitement that I miss!!!  Some say that this is too harsh.  While I understand where a lot of players who read this would say that, in Ultima Online, you did have your "favorite" gear, but there was no sword that you spent 100's of hours camping a Raid Spawn to get.  Having a second or third set of gear was commonplace, and it truly wasn't the end of the world to lose your stuff.  In fact, it became a quest in and of itself, to re-equip yourself!

 

2) I also played the original Everquest.  This game was NOT a full loot PvP (like UO was), but death was not to be trifled with!  In Everquest, you DID spawn-camp items and you often DID spend 100's of hours working on getting great gear.  When you died, your corpse was left right where you fell.  If that was at the bottom of a dungeon, you were in trouble!  ALL of your stuff was left ON YOUR CORPSE!  You would reappear at your town or recall point (usually outside the dungeon you were fighting in...if you remembered to bind there) totally NAKED.  In EQ, you generally did NOT have a decent second set of gear...and if you just died in a dungeon with your GOOD gear, you were hard-pressed to even get there with your "second-tier" gear.  Again, I cannot even count the times I had to ask guildmates, or offer random high-level players lots of my money to help me on my "corpse-run".  Everyone in the game understood and felt my anguish when I would plead for help, because it was scary, and they had ALL been there.  You had 7 days to get your corpse or it would POOF!  This made EVERY battle, and EVERY dungeon so much more exciting!  You did not dare delve too far and you did not ever recklessly run into battle, for death was scary!  Some of my absolute favorite times in EQ was when our party would wipe in a dungeon and the agony of trying to get our stuff back (oh, and you LOST EXPERIENCE - even LEVELs when you died....trust me...you DIDN'T want to die).  I MISS that feeling...

 

 

Anyway, I have other stories....but I think I made my point.  The fear of death is exciting!  I miss it!!  I have not played a game in a LONG time that gave me the same feeling that UO and EQ did.  The parts of those games that are my most memorable and the most exciting is when I was scared to die, and yet we prevailed! 

 

I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

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Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    Secondly, to me, getting a rare rare rare good drop is 100x more exciting than some death penalty. I don't miss that at all.

     

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • czombieczombie Monroe, MIPosts: 82Member
    If fear of death gets your motor running, then there are plenty of hobbies out there that are more "frightening" than playing an MMO game, when the worse that can happen is you lose some imaginary gear.  I personally play for the excitement of exploring a new area or gaining a new in-game ability.  I do the same type of thing in RL too, but obviously I can't take a vacation and go someplace new every week so gaming is a good substitute for that.
  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Canada, QCPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    For EVE it depends what we're talking about it, if we're talking about a few titan losses then yeah that's 6-7 months down the drain.  But if it's a few battleships and some T2 cruisers , making the isk back to pay for everything doesn't take long at all. The only part that made me quit EVE was how long it was to get in to PvP, what I mean is that most people always want a major gank fest where we're 200 Vs 5.  Where the hell is the fun in that?  Let's just go roam and pop whoever and if we get blown up, so be it.  Sometimes you can be 12 hours with a party and everyone just plans for the attack and I always scream to myself "C'MON ALREADY!!" lol, EVE is a great PvP game if you're in a pirate corp that doesn't give a damn about the odds. 

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Great post, OP. Trust me, you're not alone in this at all. There are a lot of us who understand that adding risk in a meaningful way leads to more reward and satisfaction if you succeed.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grixxitt

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

     

    It's pretty obvious that OP is showing his dismay for the overall industry standard of making games easier and more forgiving. Of course there are some niche games that meet that particular criterion, but you can't deny that we would have better and more numerous choices to peruse if the industry didn't cater to more casual players who don't want to experience that kind of loss in an mmo.
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    Yes, but people like the OP don't actually miss that feeling. They are upset that other people have the option to play a game that doesn't feature harsh death penalties. It's about playing a game in which you enjoy a mechanic, knowing that others are being frustrated by it so that you can feel superior.

    The problem is that the people playing those hardcore modes, is that they all want to be there. No one is suffering, and so that sense of superiority is lost (save for going to that game's forums to call people who play the other modes casuals/carebears) - gotta get that superiority fix somehow!

     

  • DeolusDeolus DoncasterPosts: 392Member

    Completely understand where you are coming from OP. In EQ it wasn't just the fear of your corpse going poof after 7 days but the thought of having to re-equip your character again. You couldn't just go to the AH and buy a new set of gear, or even craft it as most of the good stuff was bind on equip, epecially at higher levels. Even the newbie armor quests couldn't be done again if you lost it afaik.

    You knew the name of every item and what stats they had because they were so hard to come by. Nowadays who knows the name and stats of any item they have equipped on their characters in more modern mmos? That is probably the thing I miss the most.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    Secondly, to me, getting a rare rare rare good drop is 100x more exciting than some death penalty. I don't miss that at all.

     

     

    Obviously he's talking about MMO's. Also he didn't say no game makes you experience loss, he said he can't remember when he last had that feeling. Probably because the choices we currently have for games like that are pretty bad compared to the AAA budget games that you get.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rusque

    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    Yes, but people like the OP don't actually miss that feeling. They are upset that other people have the option to play a game that doesn't feature harsh death penalties. It's about playing a game in which you enjoy a mechanic, knowing that others are being frustrated by it so that you can feel superior.

    The problem is that the people playing those hardcore modes, is that they all want to be there. No one is suffering, and so that sense of superiority is lost (save for going to that game's forums to call people who play the other modes casuals/carebears) - gotta get that superiority fix somehow!

     

     

    You couldn't be further from the mark. It's pretty obvious you don't understand our intentions or what we want. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that more risk = more reward. And having something like corpse runs/looting adds more unscripted and exciting events than something like "every time you die your items lose 10 durability."

    why do you guys always choose to make stuff up about us instead of just reading what we write?
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    Yes, but people like the OP don't actually miss that feeling. They are upset that other people have the option to play a game that doesn't feature harsh death penalties. It's about playing a game in which you enjoy a mechanic, knowing that others are being frustrated by it so that you can feel superior.

    The problem is that the people playing those hardcore modes, is that they all want to be there. No one is suffering, and so that sense of superiority is lost (save for going to that game's forums to call people who play the other modes casuals/carebears) - gotta get that superiority fix somehow!

     

     

    You couldn't be further from the mark. It's pretty obvious you don't understand our intentions or what we want. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that more risk = more reward. And having something like corpse runs/looting adds more unscripted and exciting events than something like "every time you die your items lose 10 durability."

    why do you guys always choose to make stuff up about us instead of just reading what we write?

    "You guys"? Why do you believe yourself to be separate? Is it so hard to imagine that many of us 30+ year old gamers have been there and done that, and in some cases, for 5-10 years. The truth is the truth. The games and hardcore modes are out there. Those communities are tiny with only those who truly enjoy playing in that manner.

    I know exactly what it's like to play perma-death and plenty of EQ corpse running. Like I said, a small portion actually enjoys that playstyle and goes to those games. Then there's people like the OP (which is most of the whiners) who don't want to go play that type of game with other people who enjoy it. They want to play that game style only if it's forced on the general public so that they can feel superior.

    I don't know why self-proclaimed "hardcore" people have a million and one excuses why they're not playing a particular game. And why the next big AAA should have what they want.

    Look, it's sad enough when the FFA PvP crowd wants a major MMO dedicated to them when they know full well that they're not a large portion of the MMO gamer population. And those who want perma-death are an even smaller group than that. If a game offers it, you should be playing it because you're not going to get what you want from any AAA games.

    Like I said, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Big whoop.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

     

    It's pretty obvious that OP is showing his dismay for the overall industry standard of making games easier and more forgiving. Of course there are some niche games that meet that particular criterion, but you can't deny that we would have better and more numerous choices to peruse if the industry didn't cater to more casual players who don't want to experience that kind of loss in an mmo.

    Obviously the OP is more interested in ranting than seeking out numerous games with harsh death penalty to play.

    The industry is large, with many games. It is totally silly to be "dismayed" by companies making entertainment products he does not like. You don't see me complaining about GTA or Saint Rows just because i don't like games with a gangster setting.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

     

    It's pretty obvious that OP is showing his dismay for the overall industry standard of making games easier and more forgiving. Of course there are some niche games that meet that particular criterion, but you can't deny that we would have better and more numerous choices to peruse if the industry didn't cater to more casual players who don't want to experience that kind of loss in an mmo.

    Obviously the OP is more interested in ranting than seeking out numerous games with harsh death penalty to play.

    The industry is large, with many games. It is totally silly to be "dismayed" by companies making entertainment products he does not like. You don't see me complaining about GTA or Saint Rows just because i don't like games with a gangster setting.

     

     

    So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.
  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rusque

    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Grixxitt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Alasti

    I haven't been afraid to die in a game in.....way too long.

    You obviously have not played D3 hard core.

    There are even MMOs that have corpse runs/harsh death penalties as well

    Wizardry, Darkfall, Conquer, Eve, etc (off the top of my head)

    Yes, but people like the OP don't actually miss that feeling. They are upset that other people have the option to play a game that doesn't feature harsh death penalties. It's about playing a game in which you enjoy a mechanic, knowing that others are being frustrated by it so that you can feel superior.

    The problem is that the people playing those hardcore modes, is that they all want to be there. No one is suffering, and so that sense of superiority is lost (save for going to that game's forums to call people who play the other modes casuals/carebears) - gotta get that superiority fix somehow!

     

     

    You couldn't be further from the mark. It's pretty obvious you don't understand our intentions or what we want. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that more risk = more reward. And having something like corpse runs/looting adds more unscripted and exciting events than something like "every time you die your items lose 10 durability."

    why do you guys always choose to make stuff up about us instead of just reading what we write?

    "You guys"? Why do you believe yourself to be separate? Is it so hard to imagine that many of us 30+ year old gamers have been there and done that, and in some cases, for 5-10 years. The truth is the truth. The games and hardcore modes are out there. Those communities are tiny with only those who truly enjoy playing in that manner.

    I know exactly what it's like to play perma-death and plenty of EQ corpse running. Like I said, a small portion actually enjoys that playstyle and goes to those games. Then there's people like the OP (which is most of the whiners) who don't want to go play that type of game with other people who enjoy it. They want to play that game style only if it's forced on the general public so that they can feel superior.

    I don't know why self-proclaimed "hardcore" people have a million and one excuses why they're not playing a particular game. And why the next big AAA should have what they want.

    Look, it's sad enough when the FFA PvP crowd wants a major MMO dedicated to them when they know full well that they're not a large portion of the MMO gamer population. And those who want perma-death are an even smaller group than that. If a game offers it, you should be playing it because you're not going to get what you want from any AAA games.

    Like I said, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Big whoop.

     

    You made a false claim, I'm refuting that claim. Dance around it all you want but to suggest that people just want these games so we can feel superior is incredibly ignorant and insulting.

    I've explained to you that we want harsher gameplay because it makes the game feel more rewarding. You decided to go on about how we should just play the games like that that already exist? I do play darkfall and I do play pre-trammel UO shards. But that doesn't change the fact that the industry's shift towards more casual play has had a negative impact on our type of game.
  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member

    I don't think at this point anyone can deny that the industry is moving away from standard quest hubs and towards more "emergent gameplay" (to quote Smedley). 

    Now what that actually means is up to the opinions of the developers themselves. And their hype-machines en tote. 

    In any event, you can expect the 'Sandbox Renaissance' to be poorly implemented and return to more scripted gameplay in a few years when the novelty wheres off.

     

    The good part about all this is that we will always have options.

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.

    No. I am saying he should look beyond MMOs.

    Obviously ranting is not going to bring MMOs to your "taste". Unless he find ranting itself fun, there is no point. No one is changing their minds, nor the market changing its course, just because of some posts here.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Grixxitt

    In any event, you can expect the 'Sandbox Renaissance' to be poorly implemented and return to more scripted gameplay in a few years when the novelty wheres off.

    Scripted gameplay (particularly in SP games) never gets old. You just need new scripts.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    I don't expect mainstream mmo's to ever be in an all around good place. I agree that the sandbox renaissance that we're currently seeing is probably going to be disappointing to people who want good sandbox games.

    I'm not sure why this means we can't be upset about it. It's kind of like people complaining about mainstream music. Except with music, niche genres are well represented because the cost of making high quality music is incredibly low compared to making a high quality game. In short, the mmo genre is more affected by a crappy mainstream than something like the music industry.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    I don't expect mainstream mmo's to ever be in an all around good place. I agree that the sandbox renaissance that we're currently seeing is probably going to be disappointing to people who want good sandbox games.

    I'm not sure why this means we can't be upset about it. It's kind of like people complaining about mainstream music. Except with music, niche genres are well represented because the cost of making high quality music is incredibly low compared to making a high quality game. In short, the mmo genre is more affected by a crappy mainstream than something like the music industry.

    Whether they are in a good place or not, is a matter of perspective. They are in a pretty good place for me.

    Of course you can be upset about it. It is your prerogative to spend your emotional energy in anything you want. Personally i find that useless. There are plenty of entertainment, and i don't like to spend my time upset by mere games.

    But of course you are not me. Feel free to be upset about anything. (And no, i am not upset about music i don't like. I just don't listen to them. Ditto for tv shows, movies, animes, novels, and all other forms of entertainment).

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Holophonist

    So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.

    No. I am saying he should look beyond MMOs.

    Obviously ranting is not going to bring MMOs to your "taste". Unless he find ranting itself fun, there is no point. No one is changing their minds, nor the market changing its course, just because of some posts here.

     

     

    But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things.

    And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
     

     

    But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

    And if that aspect is important enough, find it in other games. If not, live without it.

    The reason you see a shift from themepark is because WOW has lost 4-5M subs. People have rant on this website for years. If you really believe that is causing the market to change, i have a bridge to sell you. i won't waste my time trying to change things here.

     

  • LourentLourent Punta Gorda, FLPosts: 19Member
    I've never felt afraid to die in a video game.  It is a video game, after all.  Not base jumping.  Now if instead of  "afraid of death"  you meant "bored of death," I could understand.  Death that leads to big time sinks.  No thanks.
  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    So are you just being willfully ignorant about the fact that almost ALL of the money being spent on mmo's nowadays is being spent on mmo's that are too easy and too forgiving for our tastes? So what we're left with are highly flawed indie games and eve. I'm not sure what's so ridiculous about being upset that the mmo scene is so obviously trending in a way we don't like. If it were 95% ow pvp full loot games and 5% themeparks, I'm sure you'd feel differently.

    No. I am saying he should look beyond MMOs.

    Obviously ranting is not going to bring MMOs to your "taste". Unless he find ranting itself fun, there is no point. No one is changing their minds, nor the market changing its course, just because of some posts here.

     

     

    But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

    Some people don't understand what an MMO should be and dismiss it as entertainment. while MMO's should be virtual worlds. There is a shift towards sandbox the developers are hearing us, they are implementing the stuff they think we want. but alas they are doing it wrong. They focus too much on making a game. instead of letting us wander around and see for ourselves.

    i hear ya m8. Death penatly's, no quest hubs etc etc

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Lourent
    I've never felt afraid to die in a video game.  It is a video game, after all.  Not base jumping.  Now if instead of  "afraid of death"  you meant "bored of death," I could understand.  Death that leads to big time sinks.  No thanks.

    Good point.

    It is not fear of death. It is fear of wasting time to regrind stuff.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Holophonist
     

     

    But harsh death penalty is one aspect of the game. It's like saying you could make a pen and paper game with your little brother where death has harsh penalties. He's saying he wants an mmo with those things. And you're not the mmo whisperer, you stunt know what will or will not come from enough people making their desires known. I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we're seeing a shift away from themeparks and towards sandboxes. I'm sure it also has contributed to people making emulators kf oldschoold games like UO, shadowbane and swg.

    And if that aspect is important enough, find it in other games. If not, live without it.

    The reason you see a shift from themepark is because WOW has lost 4-5M subs. People have rant on this website for years. If you really believe that is causing the market to change, i have a bridge to sell you. i won't waste my time trying to change things here.

     

     

    So we can't have more than 1 criterion when deciding what game to play? How about you go play one of the many non-mmos that don't have harsh death penalties? If it's so important to you, then you should be able to settle for a non-mmo.

    And WoW losing millions of subs doesn't necessarily mean the market would move specifically towards sandbox games. Clearly games like The Repopulation, Embers of Caerus etc are being developed because people show an interest in it.
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