OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by AwDiddums
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
As incredible as it may seem, NPCs in a video game are capable of being loaded with tables that record and ping back which player is doing the most damage. They aren't real creatures, you know.
GW1 already did it, so don't tell me that crap. GW1 had the best MMO AI out of any game and gave significant challenge and forced you to tailor your builds for just one specific enemy if you wanted even a chance. Oh and tanks worked just like how tanks work in pvp, roots, slows, stuns, shields, auras, buffs, and debuffs...the fun way to play a tank without that god awful threat generation mechanic.
Originally posted by Torcip GW1 already did it, so don't tell me that crap. GW1 had the best MMO AI out of any game and gave significant challenge and forced you to tailor your builds for just one specific enemy if you wanted even a chance. Oh and tanks worked just like how tanks work in pvp, roots, slows, stuns, shields, auras, buffs, and debuffs...the fun way to play a tank without that god awful threat generation mechanic.
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
1) In both your RL example the fight is practically over and you lost lol. True, but same can be said with military actions.. Your position if being blasted by 5 canons.. Do you really know which cannon to focus on? Honestly?That would depend on what resources and abilities I had.Strategy and tactics change based on what you can do and what resources you have.This would be true of AI too.
2) You also assume there is only one level of AI and than a pack of wolves has the same intelligence in the game as every other mob even humans etc. Even the smartest of AI"s it's impossible in most cases to tell which "range" dps is doing the most harm.. Face to face you have a better clue who is more harmful but not range damage..Well an AI has access to all the game information if the developer chooses to let it so could tell mathematically who is the largest DPS.But again like above it's actions depends on it's abilities and intelligence it could for example choose to attack the nearest range whilst CCing as many others as it could or it could choose to run heading for others like it int he area.
3) People are reading to much into the SOE live quote it simply means there no taunt mechanic and that the AI can make it's own decisions on who to attack and how. Smart AI is just an excuse to justify random chaos..This is your opinion and based on GW2 I'm guessing.Can't argue with it as we ahve no information on AI in EQN to prove you right or wrong.
4) We don;t know what kind of AI systems will be in the game or if they truly are AI and not just marketing speak for a different kind of mob scripting.We have seen no evidence of AI in action as the demos didn't have any monsters moving that weren't being controlled by humans. Again AI is just smoke and mirrors to REAL intelligence and actions.. I suspect we'll be dished a serving of random chaos that promotes zerging.. See above but your welcoem to your opinion till it's proven wrong or justified.
Guild Wars had sufficiently advanced AI to make Trinity obsolete. It's been obsolete for a long time, and "better AI than Trinity" isn't a high bar to clear.
Opinions are one thing, but the amount of misinformation in this thread is so spectacular that I don't know whether to be amused or to be sad.
Suffice to say that many of you (on both sides of the argument) are getting pretty worked up over some things that you actually have no idea about -- and in many cases, are outright incorrect. I suppose no one is stopping you from uselessly burning calories arguing about it on the internet... I would just be wary of letting some sort of crowd-sourced notion of "what is going to be in the game" start to take on a life of its own when it actually might be fairly detached from reality. (And no, I won't give examples.)
That said, I recommend that you all stay relaxed and groovy in the meantime.
President & Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm, Author of Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI, Game AI consultant, GDC AI Summit advisor, co-founder of AIGPG | IntrinsicAlgorithm.com
Drak Drak Drak.. what am I to do with you.. LOL It's pretty easy to see that SOE's stance of smart AI is just bs at best.. Let me see if I can make it even simpler to understand.. Lets assume you and a buddy are fighting side by side.. You both are surrounded by 5 range shooting mobs.. Between you and your buddy you take down one mob.. Then your buddy is hit and goes down.. You then are wounded by one shot.. The other mobs miss you both...... Do you honestly think you know which mob HIT or MISS? And who killed the one mob.. YOU or you buddy, and would the other mobs even have a clue which one of you did the killing shot? This whole BS about smart AI is just stupid logic..
What EQN should say is that the MOBS are cheating and have access to inside code numbers.. instead of calling it smart AI..
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
As the victim, are you going to just keep getting pelted or take action? If you take action, won't your next defensive or offensive move be determined by what you perceive as the greatest threat by other criteria (ex: distance or size) if you cannot determine which is causing the most harm?
We don't know the dev's solution to threat assessment or the actions based on that so it's kind of early to start saying they are "DUMB DEVS."
Mobs will go after who they believe are hurting them the most. How they assess that is unknown, but thankfully it's a safe bet that the mobs will choose an actual threat over the guy giving them the finger.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Opinions are one thing, but the amount of misinformation in this thread is so spectacular that I don't know whether to be amused or to be sad.
Suffice to say that many of you (on both sides of the argument) are getting pretty worked up over some things that you actually have no idea about -- and in many cases, are outright incorrect. I suppose no one is stopping you from uselessly burning calories arguing about it on the internet... I would just be wary of letting some sort of crowd-sourced notion of "what is going to be in the game" start to take on a life of its own when it actually might be fairly detached from reality. (And no, I won't give examples.)
That said, I recommend that you all stay relaxed and groovy in the meantime.
Your so nonchalant and above it all. It's great that you took the time to let us know you have it figured all out. A breath of fresh air to provide us all with some perspective.
I guess the only problem is you didn't address anyone or provide a single line of substance. Which pretty much makes your post the most vapid series of sentences on this thread. But don't let things like that hold you down. You state your own opinion and be your own person!
Ok I'm calling it folks. It's pretty clear advanced ai has been around for sometime. Numerous examples have been given. Chess, GW1, old and EQ1. The counter argument consist of "the devs are stupid".
Ok I'm calling it folks. It's pretty clear advanced ai has been around for sometime. Numerous examples have been given. Chess, GW1, old and EQ1. The counter argument consist of "the devs are stupid".
Chess AI is trying to play as good as it is possible.
Its going to be interesting when worms AI is trying to play best worm or mouse or chicken or stupid orc or smart villain.
monsters only hunting when they are hungry and hiding when they are not.
running away when they feel threatened.
smart mobs are so smart that its impossible to even see them.
lions attacking 100 vs 1.
etc...
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
You do not have to build an advanced AI. All you have to do is raise the aggro limit. REALLY raise the aggro limits. Think how realistic this would be! The idea of trash mobs is ludicrous in real life. If you attack a well guarded installation the first thing the guards will do is raise an alarm and reinforcements will pour in until the invaders are dealt with. I have never seen that done in a game (I never got as far as raiding in EQ).
I agree with those who said that an advanced AI that could beat the players is not what players really want. Why would you raid if you lost all the time? There is a reason why game companies follow the exact same raiding pattern for every dungeon. 1) trash mobs strong enough to discourage solo players but easy for experienced raiders 2) medium hard mobs or puzzles for players to anticipate the coming ultimate battle, 3) raid boss who has the big loot. This is what players have come to expect for every mmo since EQ. Trinity (WOW) or not (GW2) this is what players want, this is what they consider fun. Why would a game company develop an AI to beat the players all the time? Losing is not fun and game companies have know this from the beginnings of MMOs.
Summary - an "advanced AI" is totally possible but totally impractical from a business standpoint.
You probably have to experience that in an MMO to actually appreciate the level of frustration or even complete fury it can cause.
I'm not talking about the UO mobs that would turn and walk away with some improved, and totally unexplained, defense modifier. I'm talking about fighting a group of mobs and then they reach a point where they turn around and just haul ass off into the forest on you. (ex: L2)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You probably have to experience that in an MMO to actually appreciate the level of frustration or even complete fury it can cause.
Most humanoid mobs did and still do this in Darkfall, since vers.1 launch back in the day... and it WAS pretty damn annoying. Even if you ran after them and nocked an arrow, they'd "hear" that and dodge when you release. They slalomed about, dodged spells if they were fast enough. so frustrating most of the times (luckily they didn't run faster than your sprint tho).
You probably have to experience that in an MMO to actually appreciate the level of frustration or even complete fury it can cause.
Most humanoid mobs did and still do this in Darkfall, since vers.1 launch back in the day... and it WAS pretty damn annoying. Even if you ran after them and nocked an arrow, they'd "hear" that and dodge when you release. They slalomed about, dodged spells if they were fast enough. so frustrating most of the times (luckily they didn't run faster than your sprint tho).
You probably have to experience that in an MMO to actually appreciate the level of frustration or even complete fury it can cause.
Most humanoid mobs did and still do this in Darkfall, since vers.1 launch back in the day... and it WAS pretty damn annoying. Even if you ran after them and nocked an arrow, they'd "hear" that and dodge when you release. They slalomed about, dodged spells if they were fast enough. so frustrating most of the times (luckily they didn't run faster than your sprint tho).
LoL, had to go out of town after I wrote the OP on this thread. Had no idea it'd still be going xD!
I don't subscribe to the idea that developers "say" one thing but never put it into their game because they're afraid the customer isn't smart enough to fight relatively intelligent AI. So until they do it I call bs on Anet and Blizzard claiming to having AI that is used for testing only as emulated players. That just sounds like the mythical "bag of tricks" that no one ever sees but is talked about constantly.
As for the comment about not having the hardware to use some of the more Advanced AI we currently have in the rafters, I agree. Again though, putting that into the context of a game is also a different challenge in itself other than hardware constraints (which increase since you're plugging said advanced AI into an MMO environment).
At the end of the day the "Trinity" or "Class" system works quite well in smart AI environments (tested this myself a year or so ago). The problem, is that it causes development headaches that SOE, and "other" companies, are trying to move away from. So they're doing all of this "Down with Trinity!" hipster crap that GW2 started, yet failed to deliver.
My primary concern right now is that EQ:N management really have no idea what they're doing, and seem completely out of touch with the actual MMO market. That, and the whole argument of "We're trying to 'reboot' the EQ franchise with a fresh look", and then they call it "Everquest Next" while completely throwing away the EQ fans.....yet they want them too? How can you say you don't want to pull people from EQ1 (going on 13+years now, and not being updated properly) or EQ2 when you call it "Everquest Next" and are trying to emphasis certain past elements of EQ?????? I smell cow poo all around
There is this game called "League of Legends." Which you can all go try out for free. Go download it, and start a "Co-op vs A.I." game. Now observe as the A.I. does not stay exclusively on the Tank. And yet, Tank champions are still useful!
If your going to start making arguments about what is or isn't possible in the world of A.I., try to get some idea WTH you're talking about first.
At the end of the day the "Trinity" or "Class" system works quite well in smart AI environments (tested this myself a year or so ago). The problem, is that it causes development headaches that SOE, and "other" companies, are trying to move away from. So they're doing all of this "Down with Trinity!" hipster crap that GW2 started, yet failed to deliver.
Your first sentence indicates that you misunderstand what EQN is moving away from. They aren't moving away from roles, rather moving away from the taunt-based system of the trinity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
As the victim, are you going to just keep getting pelted or take action? If you take action, won't your next defensive or offensive move be determined by what you perceive as the greatest threat by other criteria (ex: distance or size) if you cannot determine which is causing the most harm?
We don't know the dev's solution to threat assessment or the actions based on that so it's kind of early to start saying they are "DUMB DEVS."
Mobs will go after who they believe are hurting them the most. Then it's NOT smart AI, it's random AI.. The mobs have NO clue which players is causing the most damage.. How they assess that is unknown, but thankfully it's a safe bet that the mobs will choose an actual threat over the guy giving them the finger.
I already know that answer.. the devs are either going to cheat and use inside code to TELL the mob who to attack, or it's random.. There is nothing smart about it at all.. Smart AI is all hype and bs.. damnnnnnnnnnnnnn
There is this game called "League of Legends." Which you can all go try out for free. Go download it, and start a "Co-op vs A.I." game. Now observe as the A.I. does not stay exclusively on the Tank. And yet, Tank champions are still useful!
If your going to start making arguments about what is or isn't possible in the world of A.I., try to get some idea WTH you're talking about first.
No one in this thread said that tank characters are not viable. taunt-based tanks are the ones that server no purpose once mobs ignore taunt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The amount of self-proclaimed experts in this thread is ridiculous, why not just wait and see, I for one have no idea what the Storybricks people have been able to come up with as I can't find a suitable video online which gives a clear indication as to how far the AI can go with their system.
So, until I see some evidence of great AI, or bad AI I'll be careful and keep my mind from assuming and creating threads where I can proclaim to be an expert....
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!" - Sun Tzu, the Art of War
You may want to briefly consider that I might be the only person on the thread that actually knows anything about the topic... and am simply not able to say anything more about it. (Even though I wish I could.) ;-)
Be that as it may... carry on, I suppose.
Aaaaaand now I just got what the IA stands for.
Very nice.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The amount of self-proclaimed experts in this thread is ridiculous, why not just wait and see, I for one have no idea what the Storybricks people have been able to come up with as I can't find a suitable video online which gives a clear indication as to how far the AI can go with their system.
So, until I see some evidence of great AI, or bad AI I'll be careful and keep my mind from assuming and creating threads where I can proclaim to be an expert....
Comments
As incredible as it may seem, NPCs in a video game are capable of being loaded with tables that record and ping back which player is doing the most damage. They aren't real creatures, you know.
Ellll ooooh ellllll.
Opinions are one thing, but the amount of misinformation in this thread is so spectacular that I don't know whether to be amused or to be sad.
Suffice to say that many of you (on both sides of the argument) are getting pretty worked up over some things that you actually have no idea about -- and in many cases, are outright incorrect. I suppose no one is stopping you from uselessly burning calories arguing about it on the internet... I would just be wary of letting some sort of crowd-sourced notion of "what is going to be in the game" start to take on a life of its own when it actually might be fairly detached from reality. (And no, I won't give examples.)
That said, I recommend that you all stay relaxed and groovy in the meantime.
President & Lead Designer of Intrinsic Algorithm,
Author of Behavioral Mathematics for Game AI,
Game AI consultant, GDC AI Summit advisor, co-founder of AIGPG | IntrinsicAlgorithm.com
Drak Drak Drak.. what am I to do with you.. LOL It's pretty easy to see that SOE's stance of smart AI is just bs at best.. Let me see if I can make it even simpler to understand.. Lets assume you and a buddy are fighting side by side.. You both are surrounded by 5 range shooting mobs.. Between you and your buddy you take down one mob.. Then your buddy is hit and goes down.. You then are wounded by one shot.. The other mobs miss you both...... Do you honestly think you know which mob HIT or MISS? And who killed the one mob.. YOU or you buddy, and would the other mobs even have a clue which one of you did the killing shot? This whole BS about smart AI is just stupid logic..
What EQN should say is that the MOBS are cheating and have access to inside code numbers.. instead of calling it smart AI..
As the victim, are you going to just keep getting pelted or take action? If you take action, won't your next defensive or offensive move be determined by what you perceive as the greatest threat by other criteria (ex: distance or size) if you cannot determine which is causing the most harm?
We don't know the dev's solution to threat assessment or the actions based on that so it's kind of early to start saying they are "DUMB DEVS."
Mobs will go after who they believe are hurting them the most. How they assess that is unknown, but thankfully it's a safe bet that the mobs will choose an actual threat over the guy giving them the finger.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your so nonchalant and above it all. It's great that you took the time to let us know you have it figured all out. A breath of fresh air to provide us all with some perspective.
I guess the only problem is you didn't address anyone or provide a single line of substance. Which pretty much makes your post the most vapid series of sentences on this thread. But don't let things like that hold you down. You state your own opinion and be your own person!
Ok I'm calling it folks. It's pretty clear advanced ai has been around for sometime. Numerous examples have been given. Chess, GW1, old and EQ1. The counter argument consist of "the devs are stupid".
Chess AI is trying to play as good as it is possible.
Its going to be interesting when worms AI is trying to play best worm or mouse or chicken or stupid orc or smart villain.
monsters only hunting when they are hungry and hiding when they are not.
running away when they feel threatened.
smart mobs are so smart that its impossible to even see them.
lions attacking 100 vs 1.
etc...
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
You do not have to build an advanced AI. All you have to do is raise the aggro limit. REALLY raise the aggro limits. Think how realistic this would be! The idea of trash mobs is ludicrous in real life. If you attack a well guarded installation the first thing the guards will do is raise an alarm and reinforcements will pour in until the invaders are dealt with. I have never seen that done in a game (I never got as far as raiding in EQ).
I agree with those who said that an advanced AI that could beat the players is not what players really want. Why would you raid if you lost all the time? There is a reason why game companies follow the exact same raiding pattern for every dungeon. 1) trash mobs strong enough to discourage solo players but easy for experienced raiders 2) medium hard mobs or puzzles for players to anticipate the coming ultimate battle, 3) raid boss who has the big loot. This is what players have come to expect for every mmo since EQ. Trinity (WOW) or not (GW2) this is what players want, this is what they consider fun. Why would a game company develop an AI to beat the players all the time? Losing is not fun and game companies have know this from the beginnings of MMOs.
Summary - an "advanced AI" is totally possible but totally impractical from a business standpoint.
You probably have to experience that in an MMO to actually appreciate the level of frustration or even complete fury it can cause.
I'm not talking about the UO mobs that would turn and walk away with some improved, and totally unexplained, defense modifier. I'm talking about fighting a group of mobs and then they reach a point where they turn around and just haul ass off into the forest on you. (ex: L2)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Most humanoid mobs did and still do this in Darkfall, since vers.1 launch back in the day... and it WAS pretty damn annoying. Even if you ran after them and nocked an arrow, they'd "hear" that and dodge when you release. They slalomed about, dodged spells if they were fast enough. so frustrating most of the times (luckily they didn't run faster than your sprint tho).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDETajj4Q8Q an example video.
This is why games like this needs better gameplay too.
Hitboxes,break their legs and they wont run anywhere.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
But once you got the "hang of things", the PVE combat was more satisfying than any raid-boss with spreadsheet tactics, ever.
LoL, had to go out of town after I wrote the OP on this thread. Had no idea it'd still be going xD!
I don't subscribe to the idea that developers "say" one thing but never put it into their game because they're afraid the customer isn't smart enough to fight relatively intelligent AI. So until they do it I call bs on Anet and Blizzard claiming to having AI that is used for testing only as emulated players. That just sounds like the mythical "bag of tricks" that no one ever sees but is talked about constantly.
As for the comment about not having the hardware to use some of the more Advanced AI we currently have in the rafters, I agree. Again though, putting that into the context of a game is also a different challenge in itself other than hardware constraints (which increase since you're plugging said advanced AI into an MMO environment).
At the end of the day the "Trinity" or "Class" system works quite well in smart AI environments (tested this myself a year or so ago). The problem, is that it causes development headaches that SOE, and "other" companies, are trying to move away from. So they're doing all of this "Down with Trinity!" hipster crap that GW2 started, yet failed to deliver.
My primary concern right now is that EQ:N management really have no idea what they're doing, and seem completely out of touch with the actual MMO market. That, and the whole argument of "We're trying to 'reboot' the EQ franchise with a fresh look", and then they call it "Everquest Next" while completely throwing away the EQ fans.....yet they want them too? How can you say you don't want to pull people from EQ1 (going on 13+years now, and not being updated properly) or EQ2 when you call it "Everquest Next" and are trying to emphasis certain past elements of EQ?????? I smell cow poo all around
Cheers
There is this game called "League of Legends." Which you can all go try out for free. Go download it, and start a "Co-op vs A.I." game. Now observe as the A.I. does not stay exclusively on the Tank. And yet, Tank champions are still useful!
If your going to start making arguments about what is or isn't possible in the world of A.I., try to get some idea WTH you're talking about first.
Your first sentence indicates that you misunderstand what EQN is moving away from. They aren't moving away from roles, rather moving away from the taunt-based system of the trinity.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I already know that answer.. the devs are either going to cheat and use inside code to TELL the mob who to attack, or it's random.. There is nothing smart about it at all.. Smart AI is all hype and bs.. damnnnnnnnnnnnnn
No one in this thread said that tank characters are not viable. taunt-based tanks are the ones that server no purpose once mobs ignore taunt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveMark/20090906/2942/AI_and_MMOs%20__The_Controver
http://intrinsicalgorithm.com/
Quite a few blogs and responses on Gamasutra. Nothing impressive. Mostly just grand claims similar to that SOE is making with EQ Next.
I especially enjoyed the remarks by Lee Cummings on this topic and a few others. One of the few knowledgeable people I've found on that site.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/BartStewart/20090902/2908/An_Alternative_to_Aggro.php
The amount of self-proclaimed experts in this thread is ridiculous, why not just wait and see, I for one have no idea what the Storybricks people have been able to come up with as I can't find a suitable video online which gives a clear indication as to how far the AI can go with their system.
So, until I see some evidence of great AI, or bad AI I'll be careful and keep my mind from assuming and creating threads where I can proclaim to be an expert....
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Support the Indie Developers - Kickstarter
Aaaaaand now I just got what the IA stands for.
Very nice.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1x-PFqE9Ys