With so much hate towards the art style of the game, the 8 buttons, and now the homage to the original EQ art, I'm worried that the super trolls will run out of steam long before this game actually gets to beta.
Am I the only one who think's Fironia Vie's face is just plain goofy? Looks like they took a design of the navi from Avatar?
I loved EQ but man that thing is just goofy as hell. I can't stop staring at it. The dark elf one isn't as bad but still an elf should have a dainty but strong look.
So no, thats not sexism. Sexism is when women are not allowed to go to school, never get "adult" status(being legally ruled first by father/brothers later by husband), don't get to chose whom to marry and can get executed by stoning for being raped(cause its their fault you know?).
[...]
I agree with most of you, of course except of those who don't even understand the question. And yes, the title had a question mark in it, so it's far from whining.
Then I have to add, and I will edit it into the first post, that of course the depiction of half-nude women is sexist, too. That's obvious, and I tend to avoid to state the obvious.
Regarding the quote, the suppression of women in Islamic states: Sorry, I will call that what it is: suppression, and suppression beyond sexism. Sexism is not equal to misogyny. Sexism means discrimination because of sex / gender. Stereotype depiction of men: muscle, forceful, testeron-driven to name some examples from the 1980s, doesn't only hurt women but is discriminating most men, too.
I understand though that you are talking about sexism as a tool of patriarchy to suppress women and to hold them like "slaves" (unpaid workforce with limited personal freedom, tied to a man). Let me state it clearly: Such a patriarchal system is totally wrong.
To the cover art: As a male I wouldn't bother that much to see half-naked men with trained abs. That's my subjective opinion. E. g. the super hero comics actually are showing very much of the male physique. Another example: Depicting a household wife making laundry while the man is sitting in front of the tv is slightly more sexist than women in bikinis.
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that it's just some sort of "Lost in translation" of the original art into our time. Sorry, it's a total failure in my eyes, I made my points already, and noone seems to disagree. I can understand that people find the picture nice to look at, granted. But the details are executed poorly. Just another example, zoom into the kobold / rat thing: I think I can see artifacts at the outline, so the parts were probably drawn separately and then mixed together... no comment.
Some asked for a solution.
The answer with hermaphrodites was not so far from reality! Actually there are many girly boys, emo boys or how they call themselves, and many other "in betweens".
Maybe the problem indeed was, that the artist just draw the single pieces (without concept) and puzzled them together afterwards. I think it was a female name... sorry, I can't remember... well she / he then seems to forget that she / he cut out almost all the male characters from the original art. I would have changed the gender of at least one female. The goal is (or should be) to give points of identification to as many people as possible from the target audience (which is 50% male / female). I now find myself connecting only to the dragon... well, could be worse! ;D
To conclude I wanna hint at another MMORPG using the VoxelFarm technology: TUG.
They explicitely plan to develop a non-sexist game!
"So, what are some things we'll do our best to make sure you won't see in TUG?
Why does this sound more like a transgender trying to get guy girls and girl guys and unic style characters...perhaps this thread should have been ended long ago. That is what Amylion is say here right?? with the seeds talk and what not....ugh
I am not sure about the sexism, but it is a pretty cliche and lame picture. The human male looks like he was cut and pasted onto the log as his boot is not sitting right, for example. I hope its not indicative of the world itself.
Then again the original EQ box and artwork was kinda campy.
Faces are painted in a dilletante way: Blonde elf, ork, dwarf, kobold are failures.
Scene doesn't make sense regarding physical logic:
The original scene painted by Keith Parkinson was set down in a valley. This scene now is on a peak, but without paying attention to it: There are no such small ponds on a peak like seen on the right of the painting.
Shadows are not coherent.
The dragon would not be able to sit there on the edge of the peak, he would fall down.
The composition, the positioning of the characters relative to each other, is crap. Kobold, dwarf, ork and Kerran don't seem to correspond to each other, they are single elements looking as if they were added as an afterthought. Very bad!
Problems with feet / boots: Kerran, dwarf
Blonde elf (Fiorina Vie?): "sword" (no comment), bowstring is on the wrong side of the hand, the quiver can not be worn like this by a female.
- Sexism:
There is no equality regarding gender!
The front row is occupied by females. The only male humanlike is hiding behind another female. Other males are poorly painted animal races. The subtext is obvious: Women rule this peak, the only man is only a side-note (tolerated as someone standing behind a woman, looking into the distance without interfering with the scene), and the other maleness is depicted as rude, brainless savagery.
There is a clear focus on the female characters which are painted with much more love to detail, combining the grace of female "tenderness" with virile power (note the male leg of the female fighter to the right!).
I admit that the fantasy genre has been very patriarchal, but that was reflecting the medieval society and the target group. Things have changed and this is good, but that style is not only going over the top, but much worse than any art produced in the past.
It is bad art.
Amylion.
EDIT:
PS: Of course the depiction of half-nude women is sexist, too.
But I personally would prefer half-naked men over being cut out of the picture.
I just think it is a new way to whine about the artwork if you don't like it.
I am not sure about the sexism, but it is a pretty cliche and lame picture. The human male looks like he was cut and pasted onto the log as his boot is not sitting right, for example. I hope its not indicative of the world itself.
Then again the original EQ box and artwork was kinda campy.
Yes, I agree, I begin to think that the lack of positive male roles was just a product of mindlessness.
And surely the original Parkinson art was campy. I mean, it's obvious that it's "pulp" ("trash"). But Parkinson's art was way better, it was almost perfect within its own limitation.
The Erudite was a good example of how to break racist stereotypes! We can see different female roles: mage, bard, fighter, and different male roles: paladin, ranger, rogue, wizard. It seems to me as if Parkinson actually cared about the balance of his painting; so 1. idea was better and 2. execution was way better.
The new cover art has only a dark elf as a "people of colour". Uhm... and well, that's not quite correct either. The "good gals" and the good guy are white.
My main concern is Firiona Vie, too. Someone already pointed out that the artist was told to visualize "multiclassing". But the result looks totally silly and wrong. So Firionia Vie now is a mage with a magic blue sparkling bow (which she doesn't know how to hold) and a cumbersome plowshare which seems to have the function of sword. What's the point of that? That she can dual wield sword and bow at the same time? Melee and ranged combat simultanously?
So, no, I don't care much about the cover of the games I play.
But as said by solarbear88, it would be bad for the game if such crappy concepts would influence the in game art (or even worse: in game logic). I am happy with the in game art, but I see some influence like e.g. the thick vambraces. And lack of variety in human appearances regarding skin and such feature...
Amylion.
PS: Maybe they've read the Bible... xD
"[...] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." — Isaiah 2:4
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
Maybe the answer is to replace all characters by robotic pirate ninjas.
You know, cause robots have no gender, pirates are free and ninja are ... well silent and fully clothed i guess. Bit redundant with robots but hey, its double safe. Besides the target audience loves that kind of stuff and their parents are more likely to buy a game with robots than scantily clad women.
Faces are painted in a dilletante way: Blonde elf, ork, dwarf, kobold are failures.
Scene doesn't make sense regarding physical logic:
The original scene painted by Keith Parkinson was set down in a valley. This scene now is on a peak, but without paying attention to it: There are no such small ponds on a peak like seen on the right of the painting.
Shadows are not coherent.
The dragon would not be able to sit there on the edge of the peak, he would fall down.
The composition, the positioning of the characters relative to each other, is crap. Kobold, dwarf, ork and Kerran don't seem to correspond to each other, they are single elements looking as if they were added as an afterthought. Very bad!
Problems with feet / boots: Kerran, dwarf
Blonde elf (Fiorina Vie?): "sword" (no comment), bowstring is on the wrong side of the hand, the quiver can not be worn like this by a female.
- Sexism:
There is no equality regarding gender!
The front row is occupied by females. The only male humanlike is hiding behind another female. Other males are poorly painted animal races. The subtext is obvious: Women rule this peak, the only man is only a side-note (tolerated as someone standing behind a woman, looking into the distance without interfering with the scene), and the other maleness is depicted as rude, brainless savagery.
There is a clear focus on the female characters which are painted with much more love to detail, combining the grace of female "tenderness" with virile power (note the male leg of the female fighter to the right!).
I admit that the fantasy genre has been very patriarchal, but that was reflecting the medieval society and the target group. Things have changed and this is good, but that style is not only going over the top, but much worse than any art produced in the past.
It is bad art.
Amylion.
EDIT:
PS: Of course the depiction of half-nude women is sexist, too.
But I personally would prefer half-naked men over being cut out of the picture.
Sexism?
Grow up!
you might not like the art style which is fine.
But to comment on sexism and not mention the poor taste animal cruelty or the obvious dig at short people. And what about the poor ugly guy on the right with buck teeth? Or the obvious dig at blondes? she is trying to wield a two handed bow and a huge sword at the same time....something only a blonde would do!
But no the art is sexist lol.
Seriously though. If there are elements that will pull in the old crowd it is pictures like this. Like said previously, a throw back to the old eq pictures. Something that will get the fans of the older game interested one way or another.
How's that community college art degree working out for ya?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Crying because the artist did not have the exact amount of male-female humans, in the exact same depth of the picture.
Maybe next is.. "omfg no black human-like being in the picture.. U DAMN NAZIS!" or " My dog is not in this picture.. WHY? DO YOU HAVE ISSUES WITH MY DOG??"..
I agree,this artwork is ugly.But if the community of this game is already behaving like spoiled princesses we're just looking at a League of Legends all over again. Good developers, amazing game and a player community that'd make Kurt Cobain.. oops..
It was pretty funny to claim sexism against males when the female in red has almost nothing on.
The art work is fine. What would be the point of it being super realistic when the game is cartoony?
It is not a joke thread though. After reading OP i strongly feel that some people should not be allowed to be near the internet.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Thanks for all those people, who showed that there is a problematic way to deal with male stereotypes: "geek", "nerd", "you've got too much free time", and so on, even though only possible in a very anti-intellectual climate (most probably US-American provenience), demonstrate a real problem of discrimination of men who don't fit the "Wrestlemania" male role model.
I have to admit that as a European I find these remarks just silly. I never heard such "accusations" of writing too much or whatever in my surroundings, not even in the most dumb circles. We don't even have words for "geek" or "nerd". Intellectuals aren't seen as something inferior, quite the opposite.
My point is that positive male models are very important especially for young men.
The new cover art picture – contrary to the original art – shows a lack of possibilities to connect their psychological identities.
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
So you confront an issue of stereotyping with some of your own? You have the choice to be offended by things. You chose to bring up something that offended you in a very offensive manner, just look at your thread title.
Don't play an antagonist and victim at the same time. Had you come across as a little less trollish maybe others would not act in kind right back. You yourself took the focus off your main point as soon as you posted it.
You know? We really need SOE to release some more new info to kill a few beaten to death topics. Right now, its like we are playing WOW and ran out of critters to grind.
I seriously don't know what's more disturbing, the artwork that means nothing or the fact that 80% of male gamers play as female characters walking around in almost bare naked armor that are most likely protecting male characters armored to the teeth? If you want to talk about sexism, at least go to the core.
Comments
Its just a picture......slow down.
With so much hate towards the art style of the game, the 8 buttons, and now the homage to the original EQ art, I'm worried that the super trolls will run out of steam long before this game actually gets to beta.
Am I the only one who think's Fironia Vie's face is just plain goofy? Looks like they took a design of the navi from Avatar?
I loved EQ but man that thing is just goofy as hell. I can't stop staring at it. The dark elf one isn't as bad but still an elf should have a dainty but strong look.
Why does this sound more like a transgender trying to get guy girls and girl guys and unic style characters...perhaps this thread should have been ended long ago. That is what Amylion is say here right?? with the seeds talk and what not....ugh
I am not sure about the sexism, but it is a pretty cliche and lame picture. The human male looks like he was cut and pasted onto the log as his boot is not sitting right, for example. I hope its not indicative of the world itself.
Then again the original EQ box and artwork was kinda campy.
Oh god yes, terrible.
I just think it is a new way to whine about the artwork if you don't like it.
Life IS Feudal
Joined - July 2004
As much as people have trashed on this picture, I like it quite a bit for the most part.
Only thing I'm not a fan of is the kinda weird face Firiona has.
Yes, I agree, I begin to think that the lack of positive male roles was just a product of mindlessness.
And surely the original Parkinson art was campy. I mean, it's obvious that it's "pulp" ("trash"). But Parkinson's art was way better, it was almost perfect within its own limitation.
The Erudite was a good example of how to break racist stereotypes! We can see different female roles: mage, bard, fighter, and different male roles: paladin, ranger, rogue, wizard. It seems to me as if Parkinson actually cared about the balance of his painting; so 1. idea was better and 2. execution was way better.
The new cover art has only a dark elf as a "people of colour". Uhm... and well, that's not quite correct either. The "good gals" and the good guy are white.
My main concern is Firiona Vie, too. Someone already pointed out that the artist was told to visualize "multiclassing". But the result looks totally silly and wrong. So Firionia Vie now is a mage with a magic blue sparkling bow (which she doesn't know how to hold) and a cumbersome plowshare which seems to have the function of sword. What's the point of that? That she can dual wield sword and bow at the same time? Melee and ranged combat simultanously?
So, no, I don't care much about the cover of the games I play.
But as said by solarbear88, it would be bad for the game if such crappy concepts would influence the in game art (or even worse: in game logic). I am happy with the in game art, but I see some influence like e.g. the thick vambraces. And lack of variety in human appearances regarding skin and such feature...
Amylion.
PS: Maybe they've read the Bible... xD
"[...] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." — Isaiah 2:4
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
Maybe the answer is to replace all characters by robotic pirate ninjas.
You know, cause robots have no gender, pirates are free and ninja are ... well silent and fully clothed i guess. Bit redundant with robots but hey, its double safe. Besides the target audience loves that kind of stuff and their parents are more likely to buy a game with robots than scantily clad women.
Fair enough, but then you don't get to see their b00bies...
I have to agree, the barbarian (woman on the right) in the original art looks a lot better than in the new art.
Other than that the new art seems like a fine piece to me. I certainly could not do better.
The sexist part is a bit too silly to discuss tho, especially since the main point of women in the front appears so on both drawings.
Sexism?
Grow up!
you might not like the art style which is fine.
But to comment on sexism and not mention the poor taste animal cruelty or the obvious dig at short people. And what about the poor ugly guy on the right with buck teeth? Or the obvious dig at blondes? she is trying to wield a two handed bow and a huge sword at the same time....something only a blonde would do!
But no the art is sexist lol.
Seriously though. If there are elements that will pull in the old crowd it is pictures like this. Like said previously, a throw back to the old eq pictures. Something that will get the fans of the older game interested one way or another.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Crying because the artist did not have the exact amount of male-female humans, in the exact same depth of the picture.
Maybe next is.. "omfg no black human-like being in the picture.. U DAMN NAZIS!" or " My dog is not in this picture.. WHY? DO YOU HAVE ISSUES WITH MY DOG??"..
I agree,this artwork is ugly.But if the community of this game is already behaving like spoiled princesses we're just looking at a League of Legends all over again. Good developers, amazing game and a player community that'd make Kurt Cobain.. oops..
It is not a joke thread though. After reading OP i strongly feel that some people should not be allowed to be near the internet.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Thanks for all those people, who showed that there is a problematic way to deal with male stereotypes: "geek", "nerd", "you've got too much free time", and so on, even though only possible in a very anti-intellectual climate (most probably US-American provenience), demonstrate a real problem of discrimination of men who don't fit the "Wrestlemania" male role model.
I have to admit that as a European I find these remarks just silly. I never heard such "accusations" of writing too much or whatever in my surroundings, not even in the most dumb circles. We don't even have words for "geek" or "nerd". Intellectuals aren't seen as something inferior, quite the opposite.
My point is that positive male models are very important especially for young men.
The new cover art picture – contrary to the original art – shows a lack of possibilities to connect their psychological identities.
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
Don't play an antagonist and victim at the same time. Had you come across as a little less trollish maybe others would not act in kind right back. You yourself took the focus off your main point as soon as you posted it.