"So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now""
I've seen it happen in the games that have a limited resource like that. Heck, one of my friends monopolized a quest required item on FF(11) for around a year because he could, and he got insane money auctioning it off for inflated prices. Over 90% of them his 'guild' supplied. So yes, people will do.
Real and Immersive? Nobody gives a rodents donkey about Real. You are playing an elf in a game where magic exists and dragons bbq peasants for fun! As to immersive, a game doesn't need to be a sim to be 'immersive'. Not even close.
Now if you want immersive, you want VR, or better still, VX. However, VX is still scifi, and VR is still primitive and expensive. I guess you are talking about that other time of immersive. That's best achieved by being internally consistent and being able to draw your interest. Instances don't alter that, since you can only experience one instance. On the other hand, having to wait in line to try and kill that 'Skeleton King' on it's 43rd respawn of the night is boring. That kind of breaks the 'immersion' for most people right there.
You know what a game needs? To be FUN !. Replayable helps as well if you want longevity, but FUN is Lord and Master to a good game.
Thinking back....... Noob trains, Not so noob trains. Waiting in line for boss spawns for a shot at loot. Noob trains, Kill stealing, Trying to race to the next mob that dops loot before anyone else gets there. Noob trains. Once you do get your shot at the boss, you have to stay there until everyone in the team gets a kill, to loot it. Noob trains. Ahhhhh, good times.
The one thing I have always despised about MMO's is the mob respawn. I kill something and 5 min later is right back in the same spot. HOw can a game ever be immersive with that happening?
Instances provide some measure of immersion. Things in the instance stay dead till you are done, usually. I can really appreciate the need having some instancing.
Can you stop with the "immersive" excuse already? There are a billion things in just about every single video game that prevent a game from being fully immersive. Until we get virtual reality with graphics and physics that border reality you will never be immersed in a game.
The only thing that has ever immersed me in video games, movies and books is a good story line and characters. That's it. You think that by making mobs not respawn as quickly is going to seriously immerse you into a game? What a joke HAHA!
The last time I've ever been immersed in a video game is The Last of Us, and that's only because of the story and characters not the graphics or gameplay.
It's a fucking video game for fucks sake. How can you despise the fact that mobs respawn? There are millions of other people playing the game online in a very limited world in terms of size. You guys really need to understand that the size of a world in an MMO is the size of my turd when compared to the real world.
Stop dreaming people, the stuff you want is not technologically possible yet.
I suggest everyone watches Sword Art Online, get your daily dose of dream MMO from that. Because we aren't in that time yet.
Originally posted by barasawa "So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now""
I've seen it happen in the games that have a limited resource like that. Heck, one of my friends monopolized a quest required item on FF(11) for around a year because he could, and he got insane money auctioning it off for inflated prices. Over 90% of them his 'guild' supplied. So yes, people will do.
Real and Immersive? Nobody gives a rodents donkey about Real. You are playing an elf in a game where magic exists and dragons bbq peasants for fun! As to immersive, a game doesn't need to be a sim to be 'immersive'. Not even close.
Now if you want immersive, you want VR, or better still, VX. However, VX is still scifi, and VR is still primitive and expensive. I guess you are talking about that other time of immersive. That's best achieved by being internally consistent and being able to draw your interest. Instances don't alter that, since you can only experience one instance. On the other hand, having to wait in line to try and kill that 'Skeleton King' on it's 43rd respawn of the night is boring. That kind of breaks the 'immersion' for most people right there.
You know what a game needs? To be FUN !. Replayable helps as well if you want longevity, but FUN is Lord and Master to a good game.
The one thing I have always despised about MMO's is the mob respawn. I kill something and 5 min later is right back in the same spot. HOw can a game ever be immersive with that happening?
Instances provide some measure of immersion. Things in the instance stay dead till you are done, usually. I can really appreciate the need having some instancing.
Yeah .. because the "world" can change with you. Hence, instanced stories (like the STO missions) are a lot better than non-instanced ones (for me, of course).
I see a lot of people saying the problem is camping. Why not just use a loot system like GW2. Whereby anyone who hits the boss/mob will get access to the loot. This eliminates camping.
I feel that the OP and many people on this website, fall into this false choice of you have to choose between non instanced or instanced dungeons. I like them both for different reasons.
My biggest problem with a game that solely has only open world dungeons is if you don't have mechanics in place to deter guilds from camping them for prolonged periods of time. Just because your the biggest and most influential guild on your server doesn't mean you should be able to camp or control who gets to farm the boss mobs or the dungeon its self.
Smaller or less influential guilds shouldn't be put at the mercy of larger guilds for the new content, and shouldn't be forced to farm the older content because some jack asses won't give it up. Its not realistic for any guild to have a 24/7 camp on a dungeon but it is feasible for long term camping sessions during important prime times.
You can have a thriving dynamic world while still having instances.. It just depends on the level of use of them. WoW, for example has too many instances and phases to be a living world. They tried to repair that by merging lower level areas together via cross server, but they have the issue that no one needs anyone else to do anything or has any real effect on the world. The world is pretty much static there, it doesn't change regardless of your activity. Plus you burn through the content so fast (unless you deliberately finish all quests) your not likely to find someone in a similar position.
You could dictate how the world changes based on the events (on average) happening in the instances and have that change the outside world. Changes would be updated in an hourly basis perhaps? Averaging out the factors or choices made by players completing or failing to complete content for example. This way the instance while not part of the dynamic world outside can still have an affect.
Instanced dungeons provide a controlled environment that is generally a good thing for most players, but they lack (so many other elements in MMO's these days) significant choices and consequences to the players and to the surrounding world. They are too scripted and aren't dynamic enough to entertain players for long, and fall victim quickly to power creep or farm groups.
Open world dungeons... on the other hand, what positive elements do they provide? I have had only brief experiences with them, but they didn't feel that different except for the PvP and ganking element.
I fully support open world non-instanced dungeons above all because I like competition and don't want things handed to me. Everything shouldn't be a walk in the park, if I only have 2 hours a night to play I shouldn't have the best gear in the game, nor expect to.
It's like getting upset at someone because they caught more big fish than you, even though they have been there since 5AM and you show up at noon. Is it their fault they have more time to do what they love?
Your analogy is flawed to a degree with the Fishing.
Because in the case of a game, there aren;t specific time when it is good to Fish. It is 24 hours accessibility for all, whether you play in the morning or at midnight the experience should be the same.
Furthermore, the person who has 8 hours to play per day versus the person who has 2 hours per day to play, both should have the opportunity for advancement, yes best gear available, at the appropriate moment.
if it takes 6 hours to get it, then person A will have it the first day they play since they can play for 8, and person B will have it the third day, since they can play 2 hours per day.
Time played is what counts. And trust me, people who have more time to play always get the best way before those that have limited time in Real time, but in played time it should come to about the same for all.
That is only Fair.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Originally posted by cowboyoni I see a lot of people saying the problem is camping. Why not just use a loot system like GW2. Whereby anyone who hits the boss/mob will get access to the loot. This eliminates camping.
it creates something far worse...zerging.
I have to disagree with you on that. What creates the zerg is not how the loot is shared. But the fact that the zerg works, in other words the pve content is easy. If everyone zerged into a world boss and got wiped, well they are going to stop zerging and start planning
Firstly I apologize I have not read every post in this thread, I can't even remember if I posted in it lol. But are you guys actually trying to accomplish equality, fairness and consideration with rules(laws) amongst your fellow players(person, man, woman, whatever). Yeah tell me how that works out for you, I'm going to watch the news and see how the real worlds doing...
Well they're still trying to, silly rabbits tricks are for kids.
I would say most gamers love their privacy. They hate sharing anything. Look at all the single player games that sell tremendously well compared to mmos.
Originally posted by cowboyoni I see a lot of people saying the problem is camping. Why not just use a loot system like GW2. Whereby anyone who hits the boss/mob will get access to the loot. This eliminates camping.
it creates something far worse...zerging.
I have to disagree with you on that. What creates the zerg is not how the loot is shared. But the fact that the zerg works, in other words the pve content is easy. If everyone zerged into a world boss and got wiped, well they are going to stop zerging and start planning
well, how does one dev avoid zerging ?
the answer isn't pretty. "for every player within 100 yeards, if count >=40 the boss gains 10% atk, def, atk speed and spell power.". or a debuff that damages everyone in range affects every player throughout the fight.
problem is now you WANT to keep guy #41 away, and he wants to grief you. and this guy can ruin the attempt for other 40.
you have to give an example of what you got in mind, because all I can think of won't end well.
in WoW, Doom lord Kazzak is ... was ...an example of an un-zergable fight. priodically it does a shadowbolt volley. one bolt per player. if any bolt kills any player, he does an entire new volley and he heals 10%. so ... it looks like this.
I still don't see why sharing the loot with everyone present at the event inhearintly means the event has to be a mindless zergfest. The fight can be as involved as the devs imagination. How the loot is then dispersed after the event is completed has nothing to do with how fun/challenging the event is. I don't see why I have to give an example of a fun world boss/dungeon event, havn't you ever done one of those events that you enjoyed before?
What make the world boss encounters in GW2 a zergfest of everyone just spamming attacks and self healing, has nothing to do with the loot system.
Wouldn't just making the world more dynamic solve a lot of this open world camping?
Instead of having the skeleton king waiting in one place every single time have something more like old AD&D's large areas like the underdark and the place under waterdeep (I think that is what it was called) places you were never suppose to "beat" but explore get fat loot and then get out of because the enormous size dwarfed any single parties ability to truly conquer it.
Save the scripted one boss in one area for the rally calls they keep going on about, and who knows maybe one of the rally calls isn't The building of Halaas but "Taking the fight to the fire demon on the second tier" and they can put some mini boss more static stuff in that area, as a prelude to killing the fire demon king himself, under the ground somewhere and let the rest of the world be open and changing and not mapped out on a wikki somewhere for everyone to know where to camp...hell if the campers have to look for the content to camp they are not camping anymore they are exploring i.e. playing the game.
If the really good stuff isn't always in one spot, then you eliminate campers by definition.
WoW has open world bosses now. They aren't fun IMO. Very tank and spank with a gimmick or two and that's it. Compared to raid or even dungeon bosses, the open world bosses are far inferior.
People are going to murder me for this even though it's actually not a troll attempt.
I honestly think EQNext is trying to hit the middleground for this sort of thing. "Dungeons" are essentially unearthed ruins. You unearth ruins by destroying the environment. So let's say a Mage blows a hole through the ground, finds a set of caverns. They tell a few buddies, they group up and jump into the hole.
That hole then closes up behind them five minutes later. Now, unless another group has ran across this dungeon that has been procedurally generated (Ie, near random) dungeon that you have to blast open a hole in the ground to access, no one else is going to really know that the dungeon exists. This leads to A) The possibility for enormously dynamic content if OWPvP is introduced, and What are essentially "instanced" dungeons in an open world setting.
Mind you, this is coming off the top of my head. I don't have anything but the random tidbits thrown at us to go off of, but this, to me at least, seems very plausible under the circumstances that have been laid out for us.
Because the difficulty varies with the amount of people.
Some games try to scale it with the amount of people in the zone. But most of the time they just scale the boss hp.
Another truth is you can be a scrub jump in and hit the boss twice and read a book and still get rewarded for it. Usually in instanced raid, you need to at least pretend to try so leader dont' kick you.
It has nothing to do with gear but rather with making a dungeon feel like a dungeon. Dungeons are about a small group of people entering, exploring and conquering. When a dungeon is not instanced and you can have dozens of groups working through them.
Dungeons are about isolation. They are about overcoming the current occupants. They are not about camping or fighting with other adventurers for content.
I've never understood why people oppose instanced dungeons. If you don't want to run them because they are instanced and it breaks your 'immersion' (now there is a joke in an mmo but that aside).
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 WoW has open world bosses now. They aren't fun IMO. Very tank and spank with a gimmick or two and that's it. Compared to raid or even dungeon bosses, the open world bosses are far inferior.
WOW used to have it ... and it was not popular, but they used fewer and fewer world boss. It seems that they tried again, and it isn't that fun this time around either.
It has nothing to do with gear but rather with making a dungeon feel like a dungeon. Dungeons are about a small group of people entering, exploring and conquering. When a dungeon is not instanced and you can have dozens of groups working through them.
Dungeons are about isolation. They are about overcoming the current occupants. They are not about camping or fighting with other adventurers for content.
I've never understood why people oppose instanced dungeons. If you don't want to run them because they are instanced and it breaks your 'immersion' (now there is a joke in an mmo but that aside).
This.
This x2.
When i am running a dungeon, i like to feel like me (and my grounp) is up against the whole dungeon, so i don't want to see another group inside.
I still don't see why sharing the loot with everyone present at the event inhearintly means the event has to be a mindless zergfest. The fight can be as involved as the devs imagination. How the loot is then dispersed after the event is completed has nothing to do with how fun/challenging the event is. I don't see why I have to give an example of a fun world boss/dungeon event, havn't you ever done one of those events that you enjoyed before?
What make the world boss encounters in GW2 a zergfest of everyone just spamming attacks and self healing, has nothing to do with the loot system.
no. I was a wow player, my bosses were instanced.
and you don't have to, I just can't imagine what you're talking about the way you can so I was hoping you'd tell us exactly what you're talking about so we can see the same thing you're seeing.
because right now you argue "why loot" and we reply "to limit group size" and you reply some other stuff and we spin around like that without getting anywhere. so stop with the generalities and tell us how you're solving the problems we outlined with your suggestion.
if you can't defend it then it can't pass in the readers' eyes even if it IS good. because we can't see it as good.
Well first I would say try some games other than WoW. Saying basically 'the way it was done in the one mmo I played WoW I didn't like. Therefore it can't be done.' is a little silly. The world boss in Malchors leap of GW2 requires more strat than some of the others. I'll say again what makes so much of the GW2 pve encounters fill zergy is the combat system in that game, not the loot system. Instanced dungeons in that game fill like a dps fest just as much as the world encounters with a few exceptions.
FF11 had some extremely challenging world boss encounters..... though in some cases to challenging (18 hour fight before they nerfed it
As long as whatever the boss drops is not too uber must have important your not going to get a hundred people zerging it anyways.
Besides I say the more content you put into the actual world of the game the better. I would ask you to give an example where sitting in the central hub and queing up for the same instanced dungeons over and over again for months, all just to finish that next tier of gear is actually fun? I personally find that style of mmo design boring as crap. DCU a mmo who I thought had some of the best combat I ever seen in a mmo I eventually stopped playing because it all boiled down to spamming 'LFG .....' in the central hub just to do that same instanced dungeon for the millionth time.
So yeah I support world bosses, world dungeons ect. Hell have 2 of them in every zone of the map. Anything to make the virtual world more fun to be a part of, and give me a reason to leave that main hub.
I still don't see why sharing the loot with everyone present at the event inhearintly means the event has to be a mindless zergfest. The fight can be as involved as the devs imagination. How the loot is then dispersed after the event is completed has nothing to do with how fun/challenging the event is. I don't see why I have to give an example of a fun world boss/dungeon event, havn't you ever done one of those events that you enjoyed before?
What make the world boss encounters in GW2 a zergfest of everyone just spamming attacks and self healing, has nothing to do with the loot system.
no. I was a wow player, my bosses were instanced.
and you don't have to, I just can't imagine what you're talking about the way you can so I was hoping you'd tell us exactly what you're talking about so we can see the same thing you're seeing.
because right now you argue "why loot" and we reply "to limit group size" and you reply some other stuff and we spin around like that without getting anywhere. so stop with the generalities and tell us how you're solving the problems we outlined with your suggestion.
if you can't defend it then it can't pass in the readers' eyes even if it IS good. because we can't see it as good.
Well first I would say try some games other than WoW. Saying basically 'the way it was done in the one mmo I played WoW I didn't like. Therefore it can't be done.' is a little silly. The world boss in Malchors leap of GW2 requires more strat than some of the others. I'll say again what makes so much of the GW2 pve encounters fill zergy is the combat system in that game, not the loot system. Instanced dungeons in that game fill like a dps fest just as much as the world encounters with a few exceptions.
FF11 had some extremely challenging world boss encounters..... though in some cases to challenging (18 hour fight before they nerfed it
As long as whatever the boss drops is not too uber must have important your not going to get a hundred people zerging it anyways.
Besides I say the more content you put into the actual world of the game the better. I would ask you to give an example where sitting in the central hub and queing up for the same instanced dungeons over and over again for months, all just to finish that next tier of gear is actually fun? I personally find that style of mmo design boring as crap. DCU a mmo who I thought had some of the best combat I ever seen in a mmo I eventually stopped playing because it all boiled down to spamming 'LFG .....' in the central hub just to do that same instanced dungeon for the millionth time.
So yeah I support world bosses, world dungeons ect. Hell have 2 of them in every zone of the map. Anything to make the virtual world more fun to be a part of, and give me a reason to leave that main hub.
Mainly same reasons I quit WoW too.. repetitive, redundant, boring.
But to the defense of many WoW players, the truth is that most started MMO's with it, and simply do not know any other way. They cannot be blamed. And I got to understand the mentality of proper WoW players, to them the game was really fun and logging on to queue for the same Instance they completed 10 times yesterday was the way to have fun..and see if that second piece of gear they were looking for would drop, or to get their daily marks or as a way to get some gold..or simply because that is what the game is all about to have fun...
To many WoW players there is an association being made in their minds, WoW being the "biggest" MMO it looks like it is the best and has all the solutions and therefore all others must follow in its footsteps and there is really no other way to make MMO's. It is as black and white like that it is as clear cut. There is no room for alternatives...until the players get fed up and try to seek something else, and find only WoW clones to play and well...the original is better...go back to it in the next expansion, it is kind of normal to see that reaction...and since the industry is caught up in the vicious circle.
I know of entire guilds that moved off WoW to GW2...only to quit GW2 and go back to WoW as the nostalgia for it built up in the mean time (and the same happened with WAR and also RIFT)... but still cannot blame the players. If I was in their place born as an MMO player in WoW I would most probably react the same way.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Mainly same reasons I quit WoW too.. repetitive, redundant, boring.
Yeh. Every game got boring sooner or later.
EQ is much more boring than WoW. That is why i played EQ for only 1 year but Wow for 3+. I did quit WOW. It got boring eventually. But 3+ years ... a pretty good run, i will say.
Mainly same reasons I quit WoW too.. repetitive, redundant, boring.
Yeh. Every game got boring sooner or later.
EQ is much more boring than WoW. That is why i played EQ for only 1 year but Wow for 3+. I did quit WOW. It got boring eventually. But 3+ years ... a pretty good run, i will say.
Yes I agree, all games, eventually.
I played UO for 5 years, the most fun MMO I have ever played till now.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Comments
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now""
I've seen it happen in the games that have a limited resource like that. Heck, one of my friends monopolized a quest required item on FF(11) for around a year because he could, and he got insane money auctioning it off for inflated prices. Over 90% of them his 'guild' supplied. So yes, people will do.
Real and Immersive? Nobody gives a rodents donkey about Real. You are playing an elf in a game where magic exists and dragons bbq peasants for fun! As to immersive, a game doesn't need to be a sim to be 'immersive'. Not even close.
Now if you want immersive, you want VR, or better still, VX. However, VX is still scifi, and VR is still primitive and expensive. I guess you are talking about that other time of immersive. That's best achieved by being internally consistent and being able to draw your interest. Instances don't alter that, since you can only experience one instance. On the other hand, having to wait in line to try and kill that 'Skeleton King' on it's 43rd respawn of the night is boring. That kind of breaks the 'immersion' for most people right there.
You know what a game needs? To be FUN !. Replayable helps as well if you want longevity, but FUN is Lord and Master to a good game.
Thank you
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
Thinking back....... Noob trains, Not so noob trains. Waiting in line for boss spawns for a shot at loot. Noob trains, Kill stealing, Trying to race to the next mob that dops loot before anyone else gets there. Noob trains. Once you do get your shot at the boss, you have to stay there until everyone in the team gets a kill, to loot it. Noob trains. Ahhhhh, good times.
I say bring em back.
Can you stop with the "immersive" excuse already? There are a billion things in just about every single video game that prevent a game from being fully immersive. Until we get virtual reality with graphics and physics that border reality you will never be immersed in a game.
The only thing that has ever immersed me in video games, movies and books is a good story line and characters. That's it. You think that by making mobs not respawn as quickly is going to seriously immerse you into a game? What a joke HAHA!
The last time I've ever been immersed in a video game is The Last of Us, and that's only because of the story and characters not the graphics or gameplay.
It's a fucking video game for fucks sake. How can you despise the fact that mobs respawn? There are millions of other people playing the game online in a very limited world in terms of size. You guys really need to understand that the size of a world in an MMO is the size of my turd when compared to the real world.
Stop dreaming people, the stuff you want is not technologically possible yet.
I suggest everyone watches Sword Art Online, get your daily dose of dream MMO from that. Because we aren't in that time yet.
This.
Yeah .. because the "world" can change with you. Hence, instanced stories (like the STO missions) are a lot better than non-instanced ones (for me, of course).
The only thing open world non-instanced dungeons lead to are the following
1. Zergfest
2. Waiting in line syndrome
3. Grifers
None of the above is fun in any way shape or form.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I feel that the OP and many people on this website, fall into this false choice of you have to choose between non instanced or instanced dungeons. I like them both for different reasons.
My biggest problem with a game that solely has only open world dungeons is if you don't have mechanics in place to deter guilds from camping them for prolonged periods of time. Just because your the biggest and most influential guild on your server doesn't mean you should be able to camp or control who gets to farm the boss mobs or the dungeon its self.
Smaller or less influential guilds shouldn't be put at the mercy of larger guilds for the new content, and shouldn't be forced to farm the older content because some jack asses won't give it up. Its not realistic for any guild to have a 24/7 camp on a dungeon but it is feasible for long term camping sessions during important prime times.
You can have a thriving dynamic world while still having instances.. It just depends on the level of use of them. WoW, for example has too many instances and phases to be a living world. They tried to repair that by merging lower level areas together via cross server, but they have the issue that no one needs anyone else to do anything or has any real effect on the world. The world is pretty much static there, it doesn't change regardless of your activity. Plus you burn through the content so fast (unless you deliberately finish all quests) your not likely to find someone in a similar position.
You could dictate how the world changes based on the events (on average) happening in the instances and have that change the outside world. Changes would be updated in an hourly basis perhaps? Averaging out the factors or choices made by players completing or failing to complete content for example. This way the instance while not part of the dynamic world outside can still have an affect.
Instanced dungeons provide a controlled environment that is generally a good thing for most players, but they lack (so many other elements in MMO's these days) significant choices and consequences to the players and to the surrounding world. They are too scripted and aren't dynamic enough to entertain players for long, and fall victim quickly to power creep or farm groups.
Open world dungeons... on the other hand, what positive elements do they provide? I have had only brief experiences with them, but they didn't feel that different except for the PvP and ganking element.
Your analogy is flawed to a degree with the Fishing.
Because in the case of a game, there aren;t specific time when it is good to Fish. It is 24 hours accessibility for all, whether you play in the morning or at midnight the experience should be the same.
Furthermore, the person who has 8 hours to play per day versus the person who has 2 hours per day to play, both should have the opportunity for advancement, yes best gear available, at the appropriate moment.
if it takes 6 hours to get it, then person A will have it the first day they play since they can play for 8, and person B will have it the third day, since they can play 2 hours per day.
Time played is what counts. And trust me, people who have more time to play always get the best way before those that have limited time in Real time, but in played time it should come to about the same for all.
That is only Fair.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I have to disagree with you on that. What creates the zerg is not how the loot is shared. But the fact that the zerg works, in other words the pve content is easy. If everyone zerged into a world boss and got wiped, well they are going to stop zerging and start planning
Firstly I apologize I have not read every post in this thread, I can't even remember if I posted in it lol. But are you guys actually trying to accomplish equality, fairness and consideration with rules(laws) amongst your fellow players(person, man, woman, whatever). Yeah tell me how that works out for you, I'm going to watch the news and see how the real worlds doing...
Well they're still trying to, silly rabbits tricks are for kids.
Every argument here is pretty easy to fix.
Training:
Smarter leashing can make this a non-issue.
Camping:
All the bosses are phases; after you've killed a given boss, you won't be able to grab it again for 12 hours.
Overcrowding:
If the dungeons are large enough and numerous enough, the above should make this a non-issue.
I still don't see why sharing the loot with everyone present at the event inhearintly means the event has to be a mindless zergfest. The fight can be as involved as the devs imagination. How the loot is then dispersed after the event is completed has nothing to do with how fun/challenging the event is. I don't see why I have to give an example of a fun world boss/dungeon event, havn't you ever done one of those events that you enjoyed before?
What make the world boss encounters in GW2 a zergfest of everyone just spamming attacks and self healing, has nothing to do with the loot system.
Wouldn't just making the world more dynamic solve a lot of this open world camping?
Instead of having the skeleton king waiting in one place every single time have something more like old AD&D's large areas like the underdark and the place under waterdeep (I think that is what it was called) places you were never suppose to "beat" but explore get fat loot and then get out of because the enormous size dwarfed any single parties ability to truly conquer it.
Save the scripted one boss in one area for the rally calls they keep going on about, and who knows maybe one of the rally calls isn't The building of Halaas but "Taking the fight to the fire demon on the second tier" and they can put some mini boss more static stuff in that area, as a prelude to killing the fire demon king himself, under the ground somewhere and let the rest of the world be open and changing and not mapped out on a wikki somewhere for everyone to know where to camp...hell if the campers have to look for the content to camp they are not camping anymore they are exploring i.e. playing the game.
If the really good stuff isn't always in one spot, then you eliminate campers by definition.
People are going to murder me for this even though it's actually not a troll attempt.
I honestly think EQNext is trying to hit the middleground for this sort of thing. "Dungeons" are essentially unearthed ruins. You unearth ruins by destroying the environment. So let's say a Mage blows a hole through the ground, finds a set of caverns. They tell a few buddies, they group up and jump into the hole.
That hole then closes up behind them five minutes later. Now, unless another group has ran across this dungeon that has been procedurally generated (Ie, near random) dungeon that you have to blast open a hole in the ground to access, no one else is going to really know that the dungeon exists. This leads to A) The possibility for enormously dynamic content if OWPvP is introduced, and
What are essentially "instanced" dungeons in an open world setting.
Mind you, this is coming off the top of my head. I don't have anything but the random tidbits thrown at us to go off of, but this, to me at least, seems very plausible under the circumstances that have been laid out for us.
Because the difficulty varies with the amount of people.
Some games try to scale it with the amount of people in the zone. But most of the time they just scale the boss hp.
Another truth is you can be a scrub jump in and hit the boss twice and read a book and still get rewarded for it. Usually in instanced raid, you need to at least pretend to try so leader dont' kick you.
This.
WOW used to have it ... and it was not popular, but they used fewer and fewer world boss. It seems that they tried again, and it isn't that fun this time around either.
This x2.
When i am running a dungeon, i like to feel like me (and my grounp) is up against the whole dungeon, so i don't want to see another group inside.
Well first I would say try some games other than WoW. Saying basically 'the way it was done in the one mmo I played WoW I didn't like. Therefore it can't be done.' is a little silly. The world boss in Malchors leap of GW2 requires more strat than some of the others. I'll say again what makes so much of the GW2 pve encounters fill zergy is the combat system in that game, not the loot system. Instanced dungeons in that game fill like a dps fest just as much as the world encounters with a few exceptions.
FF11 had some extremely challenging world boss encounters..... though in some cases to challenging (18 hour fight before they nerfed it
As long as whatever the boss drops is not too uber must have important your not going to get a hundred people zerging it anyways.
Besides I say the more content you put into the actual world of the game the better. I would ask you to give an example where sitting in the central hub and queing up for the same instanced dungeons over and over again for months, all just to finish that next tier of gear is actually fun? I personally find that style of mmo design boring as crap. DCU a mmo who I thought had some of the best combat I ever seen in a mmo I eventually stopped playing because it all boiled down to spamming 'LFG .....' in the central hub just to do that same instanced dungeon for the millionth time.
So yeah I support world bosses, world dungeons ect. Hell have 2 of them in every zone of the map. Anything to make the virtual world more fun to be a part of, and give me a reason to leave that main hub.
Mainly same reasons I quit WoW too.. repetitive, redundant, boring.
But to the defense of many WoW players, the truth is that most started MMO's with it, and simply do not know any other way. They cannot be blamed. And I got to understand the mentality of proper WoW players, to them the game was really fun and logging on to queue for the same Instance they completed 10 times yesterday was the way to have fun..and see if that second piece of gear they were looking for would drop, or to get their daily marks or as a way to get some gold..or simply because that is what the game is all about to have fun...
To many WoW players there is an association being made in their minds, WoW being the "biggest" MMO it looks like it is the best and has all the solutions and therefore all others must follow in its footsteps and there is really no other way to make MMO's. It is as black and white like that it is as clear cut. There is no room for alternatives...until the players get fed up and try to seek something else, and find only WoW clones to play and well...the original is better...go back to it in the next expansion, it is kind of normal to see that reaction...and since the industry is caught up in the vicious circle.
I know of entire guilds that moved off WoW to GW2...only to quit GW2 and go back to WoW as the nostalgia for it built up in the mean time (and the same happened with WAR and also RIFT)... but still cannot blame the players. If I was in their place born as an MMO player in WoW I would most probably react the same way.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Yeh. Every game got boring sooner or later.
EQ is much more boring than WoW. That is why i played EQ for only 1 year but Wow for 3+. I did quit WOW. It got boring eventually. But 3+ years ... a pretty good run, i will say.
Yes I agree, all games, eventually.
I played UO for 5 years, the most fun MMO I have ever played till now.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard