Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Wrong and wrong. Depends on the game. Poor design kills games, for sure.
For one, why should crafting yield the best gear when crafting is a completely easy solo activity? That's just stupid.
The best loot should be a reward for challenge, not for mindless easy mode. The ONLY challenge in MMORPGs comes from group/raid content, surely not from anything solo since solo is always, ALWAYS stupidly easy - it has to be for all the least common denominators to get thru it.
In a good system, you can get some bits from crafting, and those bits require rare mats (that ideally drop from dungeons, so that SOMEONE has to exert themselves as part of creating that phat crafted loot) and you get some bits from dungeons.
No well designed MMORPG has ever let people ever get completely geared in a weekend. You must be thinking of Neverwinter or some other F2P piece of crap game that isn't worth playing.
Most well designed games put limitations on how often people can do instances when the loot gets serious at endgame. Before that, since most MMORPGs are solo ez mode with optional instances pre-endgame, why would anybody care what people are doing for loot?
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with open world instances. Open world instances are even more readily available with eternal repops and zero limitations on how much time you spend in them.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of instanced dungeons (where the best loot should be, since it's where true challenge lies and can be better regulated with lockouts or other limitations) and world dungeons since I miss the old days and zones like Crushbone and EQLive dungeon zones where total carnage can occur at any moment.
What I don't miss at all from those types of zones is fighting over spawns, fighting over tagging spawns, high level d-bags camping stuff way below themselves (hate this in any game, nutless wonders are never fun to deal with), having a group camping every spawn point in a zone (highest level dungeon zones in vanilla EQ were this way) and waiting 15+ minutes for YOUR spawn to pop so you had something to do for 30 seconds.
Ultimately, this thread is ridiculous and pointless. There is good game design and there is bad game design. Smart designers of good games limit your gains to pace things out, like it or not, so yeah, you can't just get fully geared at end game in one weekend. That would be a great way to go F2P after losing all your players almost immediately due to them being done with your game (aka, bad design).
What really kills crafting is people just not getting it and thinking it's easy mode anything. Being successful with crafting takes some marginal thought and effort.
What kills the life of games is contemporary MMORPG design that says, let's poop on multiplayer and design easy games for soloists, spend years and millions doing it, then wonder why everybody is gone within 6 months of release (derp, it's because you created a single player game, not an MMORPG).
What kills the life of games even more is not infusing them with life at all, ala GW2, soon to be TESO, and probably also EQN - dumbing MMORPGs down so much that they're not even MMORPGs anymore, catering exclusively to soloists to the point of there being no structured grouping, designing for consoles first or console mentality (very few skills to deal with, less complexity). Simon says level solo. Simon says 5 of you soloists share a chat channel and an instance and we'll call this a group even though it really isn't. Simon says you don't need to interact, or cooperate, or have a strategy, or trust anyone other than yourself. Simon says ez-mode is boring but have some more anyways. Who needs trinity? Everybody can do a little of everything half assedly and it's like the soloing never ends. Whoopee. Who needs community, friends, why even bother with guilds...your guildies are probably paying 5 different steaming piles of F2P and who knows which game they're in at the moment and you don't need them anyways since you're soloing.
Solo heavy design is killing MMORPGs - nothing else. Whether dungeons are open world or instances doesn't matter. Whether crafting lets you poop out epics just for logging in, doesn't matter. When there's zero need of interacting with the other players in these online worlds, when grouping is entirely optional and avoidable, when you can do everything yourself and don't need anybody else, when there's zero chance of community developing because of this, then the life has been sucked out of the genre.
IMO, screw solo, screw people who want to solo exclusively or even most of the time. Let them play single player games or the many crappy failed MMORPGs that are F2P, not worth playing, and were never worth a sub due to being designed for soloists. Bring the MM back to MMORPGs. Bring back the grouping (grouping should be 95% of your gameplay, not 5% with 95% solo as it is in most newer MMORPGs). Ditch all the ez-mode. Players who can't handle it have no lack of ez-mode out there - they can play with their phones or tablets and try not to drool on themselves.
Bring grouping and challenge back to MMORPGs and community and life will follow.
The memories from MMORPGs come from doing stuff that's hard - WITH OTHER PEOPLE. From rising up and taking on challenges. From the amazing time you or someone else bailed a group out of a sure wipe. From that time your group beat a barely beat a boss after failing 10x. From that time so and so hit the wrong key and pulled 10 groups of mobs and wiped everybody. Etc.
Soloing doesn't yield this. Ez-mode doesn't yield this. Getting a free epic in the mail because the server was down for a day and the company doesn't want you to be butt hurt doesn't accomplish this.
It's more and more obvious that catering to the least common denominator, dumbing down, and making MMORPGs for soloists does nothing but yield failed MMORPGs. The answer isn't to go full retard like GW2 and TESO and ditch MMORPG in favor of massively single player online with no pretense of being an MMORPG at all (although I do favor these games existing to get soloists away from real MMORPGs). The answer is to stop trying to hit the lotto and be the next WoW, which isn't going to happen, WoW was a fluke, and to just return the roots of MMORPGs and make some true MMORPGs for core players, and if people don't want to be core players, that's just too bad. We didn't need them before, and those games were successful (some still run today), and if they'd rather solo and play something else, that's better for everyone.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Great responses guys I read every single one of them and some of you have pointed out some flaws in my reasonings good stuff.
But there has to be a better way....back in EQ1 I could literally name every single peice of my gear by exact name and where I got it down to rings and earrings.....ask me what my Warlock is wearing in WoW? Bits and peices of Tier 14, WTF is tier 14 gear? ....
And yes I agree you can still use instances to tell a story nothing wrong with that, have something like a Story line dungeons that groups can LFG for. But then have harder "Side quest" dungeons that are non-instanced in the open world.
I'm really curious on how EQN will handle instances....if I can dig anywhere in the game what If I want to dig through a dungeon? What happens?
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Wrong and wrong. Depends on the game. Poor design kills games, for sure.
For one, why should crafting yield the best gear when crafting is a completely easy solo activity? That's just stupid.
The best loot should be a reward for challenge, not for mindless easy mode. The ONLY challenge in MMORPGs comes from group/raid content, surely not from anything solo since solo is always, ALWAYS stupidly easy - it has to be for all the least common denominators to get thru it.
In a good system, you can get some bits from crafting, and those bits require rare mats (that ideally drop from dungeons, so that SOMEONE has to exert themselves as part of creating that phat crafted loot) and you get some bits from dungeons.
No well designed MMORPG has ever let people ever get completely geared in a weekend. You must be thinking of Neverwinter or some other F2P piece of crap game that isn't worth playing.
Most well designed games put limitations on how often people can do instances when the loot gets serious at endgame. Before that, since most MMORPGs are solo ez mode with optional instances pre-endgame, why would anybody care what people are doing for loot?
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with open world instances. Open world instances are even more readily available with eternal repops and zero limitations on how much time you spend in them.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of instanced dungeons (where the best loot should be, since it's where true challenge lies and can be better regulated with lockouts or other limitations) and world dungeons since I miss the old days and zones like Crushbone and EQLive dungeon zones where total carnage can occur at any moment.
What I don't miss at all from those types of zones is fighting over spawns, fighting over tagging spawns, high level d-bags camping stuff way below themselves (hate this in any game, nutless wonders are never fun to deal with), having a group camping every spawn point in a zone (highest level dungeon zones in vanilla EQ were this way) and waiting 15+ minutes for YOUR spawn to pop so you had something to do for 30 seconds.
Ultimately, this thread is ridiculous and pointless. There is good game design and there is bad game design. Smart designers of good games limit your gains to pace things out, like it or not, so yeah, you can't just get fully geared at end game in one weekend. That would be a great way to go F2P after losing all your players almost immediately due to them being done with your game (aka, bad design).
What really kills crafting is people just not getting it and thinking it's easy mode anything. Being successful with crafting takes some marginal thought and effort.
What kills the life of games is contemporary MMORPG design that says, let's poop on multiplayer and design easy games for soloists, spend years and millions doing it, then wonder why everybody is gone within 6 months of release (derp, it's because you created a single player game, not an MMORPG).
What kills the life of games even more is not infusing them with life at all, ala GW2, soon to be TESO, and probably also EQN - dumbing MMORPGs down so much that they're not even MMORPGs anymore, catering exclusively to soloists to the point of there being no structured grouping, designing for consoles first or console mentality (very few skills to deal with, less complexity). Simon says level solo. Simon says 5 of you soloists share a chat channel and an instance and we'll call this a group even though it really isn't. Simon says you don't need to interact, or cooperate, or have a strategy, or trust anyone other than yourself. Simon says ez-mode is boring but have some more anyways. Who needs trinity? Everybody can do a little of everything half assedly and it's like the soloing never ends. Whoopee. Who needs community, friends, why even bother with guilds...your guildies are probably paying 5 different steaming piles of F2P and who knows which game they're in at the moment and you don't need them anyways since you're soloing.
Solo heavy design is killing MMORPGs - nothing else. Whether dungeons are open world or instances doesn't matter. Whether crafting lets you poop out epics just for logging in, doesn't matter. When there's zero need of interacting with the other players in these online worlds, when grouping is entirely optional and avoidable, when you can do everything yourself and don't need anybody else, when there's zero chance of community developing because of this, then the life has been sucked out of the genre.
IMO, screw solo, screw people who want to solo exclusively or even most of the time. Let them play single player games or the many crappy failed MMORPGs that are F2P, not worth playing, and were never worth a sub due to being designed for soloists. Bring the MM back to MMORPGs. Bring back the grouping (grouping should be 95% of your gameplay, not 5% with 95% solo as it is in most newer MMORPGs). Ditch all the ez-mode. Players who can't handle it have no lack of ez-mode out there - they can play with their phones or tablets and try not to drool on themselves.
Bring grouping and challenge back to MMORPGs and community and life will follow.
The memories from MMORPGs come from doing stuff that's hard - WITH OTHER PEOPLE. From rising up and taking on challenges. From the amazing time you or someone else bailed a group out of a sure wipe. From that time your group beat a barely beat a boss after failing 10x. From that time so and so hit the wrong key and pulled 10 groups of mobs and wiped everybody. Etc.
Soloing doesn't yield this. Ez-mode doesn't yield this. Getting a free epic in the mail because the server was down for a day and the company doesn't want you to be butt hurt doesn't accomplish this.
It's more and more obvious that catering to the least common denominator, dumbing down, and making MMORPGs for soloists does nothing but yield failed MMORPGs. The answer isn't to go full retard like GW2 and TESO and ditch MMORPG in favor of massively single player online with no pretense of being an MMORPG at all (although I do favor these games existing to get soloists away from real MMORPGs). The answer is to stop trying to hit the lotto and be the next WoW, which isn't going to happen, WoW was a fluke, and to just return the roots of MMORPGs and make some true MMORPGs for core players, and if people don't want to be core players, that's just too bad. We didn't need them before, and those games were successful (some still run today), and if they'd rather solo and play something else, that's better for everyone.
Even though you disargee with me I agree with you lol, strange.
I cant think of a single moment in my MMORPG history where something I acomplished Solo that was more memorable than something I accomplished in a group. NONE.
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Wrong and wrong. Depends on the game. Poor design kills games, for sure.
For one, why should crafting yield the best gear when crafting is a completely easy solo activity? That's just stupid.
You gave the answer a little later. Mobs should drop crafting stuff for the most part. Very few items should be dropped whole. Almost nothing should drop money. (Instead of humanoids that would be carrying cash.)
The best loot should be a reward for challenge, not for mindless easy mode. The ONLY challenge in MMORPGs comes from group/raid content, surely not from anything solo since solo is always, ALWAYS stupidly easy - it has to be for all the least common denominators to get thru it.
For the most part I agree with you, but probably would soften it a bit. Companies made these easier (WoW) so to expand the player base.
In a good system, you can get some bits from crafting, and those bits require rare mats (that ideally drop from dungeons, so that SOMEONE has to exert themselves as part of creating that phat crafted loot) and you get some bits from dungeons.
This is the only way it works. Especially if you make those drops droppable.
<SNIP>
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with open world instances. Open world instances are even more readily available with eternal repops and zero limitations on how much time you spend in them.
I believe the idea was that someone could gate-camp the mobs to keep most people from getting drops.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of instanced dungeons (where the best loot should be, since it's where true challenge lies and can be better regulated with lockouts or other limitations) and world dungeons since I miss the old days and zones like Crushbone and EQLive dungeon zones where total carnage can occur at any moment.
Yep. I agree with the mix too. Including the EQ1 and EQ2 method of dungeons with instanced dungeons within them.
What I don't miss at all from those types of zones is fighting over spawns, fighting over tagging spawns, high level d-bags camping stuff way below themselves (hate this in any game, nutless wonders are never fun to deal with), having a group camping every spawn point in a zone (highest level dungeon zones in vanilla EQ were this way) and waiting 15+ minutes for YOUR spawn to pop so you had something to do for 30 seconds.
That is what you get with open dungeons. Remember door camping because people didn't want to do corpse runs? Yeah.
Ultimately, this thread is ridiculous and pointless. There is good game design and there is bad game design. Smart designers of good games limit your gains to pace things out, like it or not, so yeah, you can't just get fully geared at end game in one weekend. That would be a great way to go F2P after losing all your players almost immediately due to them being done with your game (aka, bad design).
Design choices in modern games follow what the crowd wants. The crowd wants an easy game. Most players are also conditioned to get to max level and then begin "playing" the game. Getting them out of that idea takes more time and effort.
What really kills crafting is people just not getting it and thinking it's easy mode anything. Being successful with crafting takes some marginal thought and effort.
Ultimately, crafting is more about repetition. Making a mini-game that requires skill and isn't boring to do (or macroable) requires a good bit of thought. A lot of people won't max crafting because it takes too much time and is boring to boot. Other people LOVE crafting. Most games, though, have crafting that sucks ass, so is pretty much a boring mini-game.
What kills the life of games is contemporary MMORPG design that says, let's poop on multiplayer and design easy games for soloists, spend years and millions doing it, then wonder why everybody is gone within 6 months of release (derp, it's because you created a single player game, not an MMORPG).
And this point I disagree with. Stats prove that the majority of players are soloists. They group only when grouping outweighs all the trouble involved. Since speed of play typically bypasses content, most people aren't going to stick around just to run the group's content.
If you tell the money guys that you'll cut out 70% of your player base by reverting to a decade + design model, friendly security guards will introduce your ass to the parking lot.
What kills the life of games even more is not infusing them with life at all, ala GW2, soon to be TESO, and probably also EQN - dumbing MMORPGs down so much that they're not even MMORPGs anymore, catering exclusively to soloists to the point of there being no structured grouping, designing for consoles first or console mentality (very few skills to deal with, less complexity). Simon says level solo. Simon says 5 of you soloists share a chat channel and an instance and we'll call this a group even though it really isn't. Simon says you don't need to interact, or cooperate, or have a strategy, or trust anyone other than yourself. Simon says ez-mode is boring but have some more anyways. Who needs trinity? Everybody can do a little of everything half assedly and it's like the soloing never ends. Whoopee. Who needs community, friends, why even bother with guilds...your guildies are probably paying 5 different steaming piles of F2P and who knows which game they're in at the moment and you don't need them anyways since you're soloing.
I agree that GW2 is horrid. The playing down of grouping games reflects the player base though. Most people are casual players. I'd say almost all.
But having fun with your friends is all about having fun with your friends. Who cares if it isn't as efficient or you get better gear by doing group instances.
The soloing demon is all about reaching max level in the shortest period of time. That is where the EQ games fail. AA reduces the effect of levels by extending the "real" game. That'd be post-level cap.
Solo heavy design is killing MMORPGs - nothing else. Whether dungeons are open world or instances doesn't matter. Whether crafting lets you poop out epics just for logging in, doesn't matter. When there's zero need of interacting with the other players in these online worlds, when grouping is entirely optional and avoidable, when you can do everything yourself and don't need anybody else, when there's zero chance of community developing because of this, then the life has been sucked out of the genre.
Group-heavy design killed the second wave (after UO).
I agree with you that solo-heavy games don't seem to have much flavor. But, most people indicate they don't read text or pause for even a minute to take in what they're doing.
To revert to the other style of game play would probably have to be done in tiers; such that 1-20 is solo, 20-70 is group, and 70-100 is multi-group or raid. That would prepare people for changes or allow them to switch out.
Problem is, you're going to have to make SURE that there are guilds willing to accept and involve players at each step. There's your flaw. That is just about impossible.
IMO, screw solo, screw people who want to solo exclusively or even most of the time. Let them play single player games or the many crappy failed MMORPGs that are F2P, not worth playing, and were never worth a sub due to being designed for soloists. Bring the MM back to MMORPGs. Bring back the grouping (grouping should be 95% of your gameplay, not 5% with 95% solo as it is in most newer MMORPGs). Ditch all the ez-mode. Players who can't handle it have no lack of ez-mode out there - they can play with their phones or tablets and try not to drool on themselves.
And ... kerboomp! Down you go. No company with a lick of sense will invest millions and years of effort to build a game only played by very few. If you lock out 70%+ (and that is conservative) of your player base, you are doomed. Your best bet is to argue for group-heavy servers in which a very few players play (think PK servers in normal games) or intelligent design that fits in advantages that matter.
However, if the advantages of grouping matter, then leveling has to be slowed down. And players HATE grinding. EQ1 leveling days are over.
Bring grouping and challenge back to MMORPGs and community and life will follow.
If you make it hard and force grouping, you drive people away. Death and desertion are guaranteed.
Of course, you could create a purposeful niche game. Don't spend much and don't intend to make much money. That would likely work if you could find graphics, back-end, programmers, writers, and other people for cheap.
The memories from MMORPGs come from doing stuff that's hard - WITH OTHER PEOPLE. From rising up and taking on challenges. From the amazing time you or someone else bailed a group out of a sure wipe. From that time your group beat a barely beat a boss after failing 10x. From that time so and so hit the wrong key and pulled 10 groups of mobs and wiped everybody. Etc.
The past always sounds better and exists in another time. Players of today aren't you 10 years ago. I agree that bailing 5 groups out of a wipe is better than anything else, but I remember the 2+ hours of standing around that lead up to that.
I have a life and a job now. Those days are gone. But I, too, remember them fondly.
Soloing doesn't yield this. Ez-mode doesn't yield this. Getting a free epic in the mail because the server was down for a day and the company doesn't want you to be butt hurt doesn't accomplish this.
But all these games HAVE groups. You could group and accept the penalty involved. I normally choose not to do this because it takes extra time that I don't have.
Try to form some groups. Its pretty tough as most people are anti-social. For instance, do you know your neighbors? Could you borrow a shirt if you needed one? Their car?
Likely no.
It's more and more obvious that catering to the least common denominator, dumbing down, and making MMORPGs for soloists does nothing but yield failed MMORPGs. The answer isn't to go full retard like GW2 and TESO and ditch MMORPG in favor of massively single player online with no pretense of being an MMORPG at all (although I do favor these games existing to get soloists away from real MMORPGs). The answer is to stop trying to hit the lotto and be the next WoW, which isn't going to happen, WoW was a fluke, and to just return the roots of MMORPGs and make some true MMORPGs for core players, and if people don't want to be core players, that's just too bad. We didn't need them before, and those games were successful (some still run today), and if they'd rather solo and play something else, that's better for everyone.
This is exactly the same problem with modern movie companies. You have millions of dollars. You want to make one of those MMORPG things you've heard about. Like WoW.
You don't know shit about computer stuff. Some guy comes in and starts blathering about all the changes they want to do. You ask them why all those changes are better. They don't have a good answer.
No, you'll take another WoW or something like it.
After all: DDO was different. And a failure. Vanguard was sorta different. And a failure. SWTOR was a very expensive different. And a failure. LOTRO was different. And failed.
I could go on, but the idea is WoW worked. So make something LIKE WoW but different. (That is actually the drivel you would hear, by the way.)
People like easy, because most of them are 18-35 with a few others. Young kids like challenge, but they also insist on playing with the adults.
Some college kids (lets say the "A" crowd) like challenge and are up for uber-gaming. However, B-Z want to win. Easy or hard doesn't matter as long as they win.
Adults (25 - 35+) work, and generally want something to help them relax or keep them busy during the day. They don't want hard. They also make up the majority of your players, and they have money.
Most of these people also don't have much time, but they LIKE progress as they don't see progress in their daily lives.
So, I'd accept that you're uber if I were you and lament the absence of challenge. Following that, I'd pick a smaller game that adds in challenge, just accept that the game will likely be F2P and have almost no players.
- remember in Lord of the Rings, when the fellowship is trapped in Moria and they have to escape hordes of goblins alive, and then that other fellowship came in and killed the Balrog and took the wizard epic piece, and then Gandalf had to stay there because the Balrog was on a 24 hour spawn timer? ......a.k.a. sometimes you've earned the right to face that boss you've worked so hard to get to.
Playing devil's advocate here more than anything; but just remember; there were reasons games switched to instancing - it wasn't just cruelty to their paying customers which motivated the switch.
Either way has it draw backs. Just as instanced MMORPG's make it not an MMORPG since it isn't an open world, etc.
But again...since what made MMORPG's different from console games was just that...they were living breathing worlds where the player had to maintain a reputation to get in groups, guilds, and get anywhere.
You don't get to declare your own pet definition of MMORPGs to be true, just because you want it to be. Instancing has nothing to do with any of the key words: Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. Tell me which one of those specifically is violated by instances?
I personally have nothing against open world dungeons. But, I would not play a game like that any more. I don't have the 4 - 6 hours of play time to really mess with anything like that. In an Instanced dungeon I can get on hopefully get a group and have an hour or so before life calls me away from the game. Which is the same reason that solo stuff is so popular. Why bother getting into a group if you are just going to mess around for 45 minutes. Not worth joining an xp group or anything,
Instance dungeons allow game to actually feel like a game than virtual world. It can be quickly run in and out with a team, and achieve something from a short time to epic weeks or months, depending on the dungeon. It can also be tailor to tell story that's close to single-player game counterpart, and can be repeat if player want to do it again.
I prefer open world non-instances, but some gamer do prefer instances over open world because of the convenience and story telling aspect which is easier to translate from single-player game to MMO. That's why we have two sub-genre, instances and non-instances game co-exist which target different type of players.
If ANYONE prefers instanced dungeons over non-instanced dungeons, it is only because they haven't experienced what it really was like to be in non-instanced (in other words, the original concept of dungeons in cyber game world.) dungeons. The concept of instanced dungeons was developed only for the convenience of game development, not for the better of MMO. It is just litterally bad thing. Something to be excluded from MMOs sooner or later, except for very few potential exceptions that can possibly enhance the quality of game experience.
I prefer instanced dungeons to non-instanced dungeons and I have experienced plenty of non-instanced dungeons. That's why I prefer instanced ones! If I either solo or take a group into a dungeon, if I'm going to do all the work, I deserve all the reward. I don't want anyone ninja-looting, I don't want anyone kill-stealing, I don't want anyone training mobs into me to drive me off, I don't want anyone camping bosses, I want all of that gone so I can play the game in peace. Plus, I don't have to sit around and wait for the bosses to respawn, they're there when I reach them.
Instanced in infinitely better than non-instanced.
I view open world dungeons the same way I view open world pvp. It's a nice theory, but inevitably, someone will go overboard with it and ruin it for the rest of the users.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Because of camping and kill stealing. That's pretty much it for me. I don't want to wait forever for my shot at a boss, and I sure as hell don't want my chance to be stolen from me by some dick getting his jollies by kill stealing.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Because of camping and kill stealing. That's pretty much it for me. I don't want to wait forever for my shot at a boss, and I sure as hell don't want my chance to be stolen from me by some dick getting his jollies by kill stealing.
Let me be clear I'm not trying to be rude to you personally when I say this.
But why do you feel entitled to killing that boss? Why do you think that you should have got the kill and not him? You both had a equal shot and he won, so whats the problem?
Like the point I made before....if we can ALL kill the bosses and we ALL have epic loot and we are ALL heroes then none of us are.
Then we log out are max level char with nameless epic items until the next game comes along.
Remember when "Ninja Looter" and "blacklist" list meant something? We worked hard to ensure our reputation stayed intact because that could be a huge blow to your ablity to get groups or being invited to guilds. Your rep got you into dungeon groups, it got you into raids, it got you into guilds it meant something.
Now a days who cares, ninja all you want....jump in a new instance and rinse and repeat no worries. Nobody will ever remember your name.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Because of camping and kill stealing. That's pretty much it for me. I don't want to wait forever for my shot at a boss, and I sure as hell don't want my chance to be stolen from me by some dick getting his jollies by kill stealing.
Let me be clear I'm not trying to be rude to you personally when I say this.
But why do you feel entitled to killing that boss? Why do you think that you should have got the kill and not him? You both had a equal shot and he won, so whats the problem?
Like the point I made before....if we can ALL kill the bosses and we ALL have epic loot and we are ALL heroes then none of us are.
Then we log out are max level char with nameless epic items until the next game comes along.
Because I wouldn't kill steal, yet others are willing to do it to me. Therefore I am at a disadvantage because I play fair. People don't usually enjoy doing things when they are taken advantage of by others.
Plus waiting for mobs to spawn is as fun as watching paint dry.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Because of camping and kill stealing. That's pretty much it for me. I don't want to wait forever for my shot at a boss, and I sure as hell don't want my chance to be stolen from me by some dick getting his jollies by kill stealing.
Let me be clear I'm not trying to be rude to you personally when I say this.
But why do you feel entitled to killing that boss? Why do you think that you should have got the kill and not him? You both had a equal shot and he won, so whats the problem?
Like the point I made before....if we can ALL kill the bosses and we ALL have epic loot and we are ALL heroes then none of us are.
Then we log out are max level char with nameless epic items until the next game comes along.
you sound like you think dungeon bosses are end game bosses... pretty sure most of us do NOT think this way. Dungeons are small and do not offer the best gear, they offer gear to get you to the best gear in most cases. You seem to ignore the point I made in my first page post regarding completing quests.. why is Shadowguy64 not special enough to complete his quest but the other guy is? Many classes in many games are able to tag mobs faster than other classes... so what are those classes just shit out of luck to you? What about those with a lil more lag? They should be punished because the game servers arent in their area?
Remember when "Ninja Looter" and "blacklist" list meant something? We worked hard to ensure our reputation stayed intact because that could be a huge blow to your ablity to get groups or being invited to guilds. Your rep got you into dungeon groups, it got you into raids, it got you into guilds it meant something.
Now a days who cares, ninja all you want....jump in a new instance and rinse and repeat no worries. Nobody will ever remember your name.
this is not an issue because of instanced dungeons.. this is usually a case of too many ppl coming and going on a server to keep track of. A good example is wow.. in vanilla I ran UBRS grps (15 man dungeon if you arent aware), I knew who I could bring and not bring and if I did get a ninja they were easily blacklisted and werent brought, but now there are MANY more players and who plays fluxuates so much that it seems like double the ppl playing.
I kinda think a game should have both. They are a very different experience to play and each have it´s advantages and disadvantages.
For one thing does the small dungeons many games have today some huge problems if you don't isntance them, there is really not enough room in them for more than 2 or at best 3 groups of players in them. None instanced dungeon needs to be huge.
And huge dungeons do take several hours to play through, it is nice to have something small when me and my guildies just have 45 minutes over and want to run something short, even if I enjoy a large dungeon more.
And at some times there just are too many people in the none instanced dungeons, this was common in EQ2 when a new expansion just was out. When the dungeon was too full we ran an instanced one to have something to do while we waited for the worst too clear.
So instance the smaller dungeons but have some large ones that are none instanced. It should really work for everyone, and as OP said: a huge uninstanced dungeon is really fun.
I kinda think a game should have both. They are a very different experience to play and each have it´s advantages and disadvantages.
For one thing does the small dungeons many games have today some huge problems if you don't isntance them, there is really not enough room in them for more than 2 or at best 3 groups of players in them. None instanced dungeon needs to be huge.
And huge dungeons do take several hours to play through, it is nice to have something small when me and my guildies just have 45 minutes over and want to run something short, even if I enjoy a large dungeon more.
And at some times there just are too many people in the none instanced dungeons, this was common in EQ2 when a new expansion just was out. When the dungeon was too full we ran an instanced one to have something to do while we waited for the worst too clear.
So instance the smaller dungeons but have some large ones that are none instanced. It should really work for everyone, and as OP said: a huge uninstanced dungeon is really fun.
Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.
...whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
What's wrong with it is that the mob is called "The Skeleton King" instead of "a skeleton king".
In an instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton King is dead, you go outside, reset the zone and kill him again in a new zone - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on lockout.
In a non-instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton king is dead, you stand by his spot and kill him again when he respawns - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on respawn.
Rate of entry of gear into the game needs to be managed regardless whether a dungeon is shared or instanced. In instances, it's managed by lockout, in shared world by number and frequency of spawn.
As far as your question, I completely unopposed to open world non-instanced dungeons. I am also completely unopposed to instanced dungeons. I would prefer that my game have both in good quantity and quality. I have fun doing both. The more dungeons, the better and the two provide different experiences - more types of different experiences, also better.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.
Open dungeons tend to be long, perilous journies - any movement from one part of the dungeon to another tends to be a guantlet of grinding through respawns. The upside of this is that it becomes noticably safer and more comfortable with a few extra people around - so it can sometimes actually be a more comfortable environment to meet people than forced grouping.
( the key is that you have to avoid competing over a specific spawn site or boss - those are where the friction comes ... its just that this may sound strange if you are coming from instanced dungeons where the bosses are the main content and everything else is just trash )
Dynamic non instanced dungeons also offer the possibility of you not knowing what is down the next bend because it is new, it is entirely possible you bit off more than you could chew, where as a instance dungeon always has that level requirement and party make up requirements (or upper end limit) so it always kind of holds your hand, you can't start it till you can do it and you know exactly how many people you need to do it.
Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.
Open dungeons tend to be long, perilous journies - any movement from one part of the dungeon to another tends to be a guantlet of grinding through respawns. The upside of this is that it becomes noticably safer and more comfortable with a few extra people around - so it can sometimes actually be a more comfortable environment to meet people than forced grouping.
( the key is that you have to avoid competing over a specific spawn site or boss - those are where the friction comes ... its just that this may sound strange if you are coming from instanced dungeons where the bosses are the main content and everything else is just trash )
why do dungeons have to be non instanced to be long, perilous journeys? When Maradon came out in WoW I spent over 6 hours in the place in one day.
Originally posted by GrayKodiak Dynamic non instanced dungeons also offer the possibility of you not knowing what is down the next bend because it is new, it is entirely possible you bit off more than you could chew, where as a instance dungeon always has that level requirement and party make up requirements (or upper end limit) so it always kind of holds your hand, you can't start it till you can do it and you know exactly how many people you need to do it.
Dynamic can be instanced or non and having a set lvl on a dungeon happens in all or nearly all dungeons so that isnt really a valid point either.
why do dungeons have to be non instanced to be long, perilous journeys? When Maradon came out in WoW I spent over 6 hours in the place in one day.
WoW dungeons (at least in the incarnations I've seen) can be very large and take a long time to grind through, but it's not the same kind of peril ... you don't get the same sense of claustraphobia as the dungeon closes in around you by everything behind you respawning, that same excitement of stumbling across someone else also down in the deapths. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that they're very different experiences.
Even though you disargee with me I agree with you lol, strange.
I cant think of a single moment in my MMORPG history where something I acomplished Solo that was more memorable than something I accomplished in a group. NONE.
Can any of you?
I solo 1vs1 boss and win when nearly dead , some more hit and i would dead , but i manage to win his rare legend helmet. I don't have time to call my friends to help and if i wait , someone will kill it first because that boss is rare and a lots people hunt it.
It my first rare drop in this game , that helmet not my class but i never sell it and keep it until the game closed.
I don't think non-instances are better , by use instances you can created more in game active , what i don't like about instance are way developers design them.
Something like the limit of number player , and gears grind shouldn't exit in instances.
i want to join a instance with 10 of my friend , but it only limit to 5
so i have to chose 4 people and throw away 6 people ? i want to have fun with 11 people not only 5
and we have to reset it again and again for party member get all gear , it like a joke
After 10 time reset and i feel sick of it , sick of it.
Can't they just give gears through quests ?
we have quest for this dungeon ask to kill all mobs and all boss ? what we have after complete it ?
Comments
Wrong and wrong. Depends on the game. Poor design kills games, for sure.
For one, why should crafting yield the best gear when crafting is a completely easy solo activity? That's just stupid.
The best loot should be a reward for challenge, not for mindless easy mode. The ONLY challenge in MMORPGs comes from group/raid content, surely not from anything solo since solo is always, ALWAYS stupidly easy - it has to be for all the least common denominators to get thru it.
In a good system, you can get some bits from crafting, and those bits require rare mats (that ideally drop from dungeons, so that SOMEONE has to exert themselves as part of creating that phat crafted loot) and you get some bits from dungeons.
No well designed MMORPG has ever let people ever get completely geared in a weekend. You must be thinking of Neverwinter or some other F2P piece of crap game that isn't worth playing.
Most well designed games put limitations on how often people can do instances when the loot gets serious at endgame. Before that, since most MMORPGs are solo ez mode with optional instances pre-endgame, why would anybody care what people are doing for loot?
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with open world instances. Open world instances are even more readily available with eternal repops and zero limitations on how much time you spend in them.
I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of instanced dungeons (where the best loot should be, since it's where true challenge lies and can be better regulated with lockouts or other limitations) and world dungeons since I miss the old days and zones like Crushbone and EQLive dungeon zones where total carnage can occur at any moment.
What I don't miss at all from those types of zones is fighting over spawns, fighting over tagging spawns, high level d-bags camping stuff way below themselves (hate this in any game, nutless wonders are never fun to deal with), having a group camping every spawn point in a zone (highest level dungeon zones in vanilla EQ were this way) and waiting 15+ minutes for YOUR spawn to pop so you had something to do for 30 seconds.
Ultimately, this thread is ridiculous and pointless. There is good game design and there is bad game design. Smart designers of good games limit your gains to pace things out, like it or not, so yeah, you can't just get fully geared at end game in one weekend. That would be a great way to go F2P after losing all your players almost immediately due to them being done with your game (aka, bad design).
What really kills crafting is people just not getting it and thinking it's easy mode anything. Being successful with crafting takes some marginal thought and effort.
What kills the life of games is contemporary MMORPG design that says, let's poop on multiplayer and design easy games for soloists, spend years and millions doing it, then wonder why everybody is gone within 6 months of release (derp, it's because you created a single player game, not an MMORPG).
What kills the life of games even more is not infusing them with life at all, ala GW2, soon to be TESO, and probably also EQN - dumbing MMORPGs down so much that they're not even MMORPGs anymore, catering exclusively to soloists to the point of there being no structured grouping, designing for consoles first or console mentality (very few skills to deal with, less complexity). Simon says level solo. Simon says 5 of you soloists share a chat channel and an instance and we'll call this a group even though it really isn't. Simon says you don't need to interact, or cooperate, or have a strategy, or trust anyone other than yourself. Simon says ez-mode is boring but have some more anyways. Who needs trinity? Everybody can do a little of everything half assedly and it's like the soloing never ends. Whoopee. Who needs community, friends, why even bother with guilds...your guildies are probably paying 5 different steaming piles of F2P and who knows which game they're in at the moment and you don't need them anyways since you're soloing.
Solo heavy design is killing MMORPGs - nothing else. Whether dungeons are open world or instances doesn't matter. Whether crafting lets you poop out epics just for logging in, doesn't matter. When there's zero need of interacting with the other players in these online worlds, when grouping is entirely optional and avoidable, when you can do everything yourself and don't need anybody else, when there's zero chance of community developing because of this, then the life has been sucked out of the genre.
IMO, screw solo, screw people who want to solo exclusively or even most of the time. Let them play single player games or the many crappy failed MMORPGs that are F2P, not worth playing, and were never worth a sub due to being designed for soloists. Bring the MM back to MMORPGs. Bring back the grouping (grouping should be 95% of your gameplay, not 5% with 95% solo as it is in most newer MMORPGs). Ditch all the ez-mode. Players who can't handle it have no lack of ez-mode out there - they can play with their phones or tablets and try not to drool on themselves.
Bring grouping and challenge back to MMORPGs and community and life will follow.
The memories from MMORPGs come from doing stuff that's hard - WITH OTHER PEOPLE. From rising up and taking on challenges. From the amazing time you or someone else bailed a group out of a sure wipe. From that time your group beat a barely beat a boss after failing 10x. From that time so and so hit the wrong key and pulled 10 groups of mobs and wiped everybody. Etc.
Soloing doesn't yield this. Ez-mode doesn't yield this. Getting a free epic in the mail because the server was down for a day and the company doesn't want you to be butt hurt doesn't accomplish this.
It's more and more obvious that catering to the least common denominator, dumbing down, and making MMORPGs for soloists does nothing but yield failed MMORPGs. The answer isn't to go full retard like GW2 and TESO and ditch MMORPG in favor of massively single player online with no pretense of being an MMORPG at all (although I do favor these games existing to get soloists away from real MMORPGs). The answer is to stop trying to hit the lotto and be the next WoW, which isn't going to happen, WoW was a fluke, and to just return the roots of MMORPGs and make some true MMORPGs for core players, and if people don't want to be core players, that's just too bad. We didn't need them before, and those games were successful (some still run today), and if they'd rather solo and play something else, that's better for everyone.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Great responses guys I read every single one of them and some of you have pointed out some flaws in my reasonings good stuff.
But there has to be a better way....back in EQ1 I could literally name every single peice of my gear by exact name and where I got it down to rings and earrings.....ask me what my Warlock is wearing in WoW? Bits and peices of Tier 14, WTF is tier 14 gear? ....
And yes I agree you can still use instances to tell a story nothing wrong with that, have something like a Story line dungeons that groups can LFG for. But then have harder "Side quest" dungeons that are non-instanced in the open world.
I'm really curious on how EQN will handle instances....if I can dig anywhere in the game what If I want to dig through a dungeon? What happens?
questions questions !
Even though you disargee with me I agree with you lol, strange.
I cant think of a single moment in my MMORPG history where something I acomplished Solo that was more memorable than something I accomplished in a group. NONE.
Can any of you?
You don't get to declare your own pet definition of MMORPGs to be true, just because you want it to be. Instancing has nothing to do with any of the key words: Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. Tell me which one of those specifically is violated by instances?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I prefer instanced dungeons to non-instanced dungeons and I have experienced plenty of non-instanced dungeons. That's why I prefer instanced ones! If I either solo or take a group into a dungeon, if I'm going to do all the work, I deserve all the reward. I don't want anyone ninja-looting, I don't want anyone kill-stealing, I don't want anyone training mobs into me to drive me off, I don't want anyone camping bosses, I want all of that gone so I can play the game in peace. Plus, I don't have to sit around and wait for the bosses to respawn, they're there when I reach them.
Instanced in infinitely better than non-instanced.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Let me be clear I'm not trying to be rude to you personally when I say this.
But why do you feel entitled to killing that boss? Why do you think that you should have got the kill and not him? You both had a equal shot and he won, so whats the problem?
Like the point I made before....if we can ALL kill the bosses and we ALL have epic loot and we are ALL heroes then none of us are.
Then we log out are max level char with nameless epic items until the next game comes along.
Remember when "Ninja Looter" and "blacklist" list meant something? We worked hard to ensure our reputation stayed intact because that could be a huge blow to your ablity to get groups or being invited to guilds. Your rep got you into dungeon groups, it got you into raids, it got you into guilds it meant something.
Now a days who cares, ninja all you want....jump in a new instance and rinse and repeat no worries. Nobody will ever remember your name.
Because I wouldn't kill steal, yet others are willing to do it to me. Therefore I am at a disadvantage because I play fair. People don't usually enjoy doing things when they are taken advantage of by others.
Plus waiting for mobs to spawn is as fun as watching paint dry.
you sound like you think dungeon bosses are end game bosses... pretty sure most of us do NOT think this way. Dungeons are small and do not offer the best gear, they offer gear to get you to the best gear in most cases. You seem to ignore the point I made in my first page post regarding completing quests.. why is Shadowguy64 not special enough to complete his quest but the other guy is? Many classes in many games are able to tag mobs faster than other classes... so what are those classes just shit out of luck to you? What about those with a lil more lag? They should be punished because the game servers arent in their area?
this is not an issue because of instanced dungeons.. this is usually a case of too many ppl coming and going on a server to keep track of. A good example is wow.. in vanilla I ran UBRS grps (15 man dungeon if you arent aware), I knew who I could bring and not bring and if I did get a ninja they were easily blacklisted and werent brought, but now there are MANY more players and who plays fluxuates so much that it seems like double the ppl playing.
I kinda think a game should have both. They are a very different experience to play and each have it´s advantages and disadvantages.
For one thing does the small dungeons many games have today some huge problems if you don't isntance them, there is really not enough room in them for more than 2 or at best 3 groups of players in them. None instanced dungeon needs to be huge.
And huge dungeons do take several hours to play through, it is nice to have something small when me and my guildies just have 45 minutes over and want to run something short, even if I enjoy a large dungeon more.
And at some times there just are too many people in the none instanced dungeons, this was common in EQ2 when a new expansion just was out. When the dungeon was too full we ran an instanced one to have something to do while we waited for the worst too clear.
So instance the smaller dungeons but have some large ones that are none instanced. It should really work for everyone, and as OP said: a huge uninstanced dungeon is really fun.
Im just curious what makes a non instanced dungeon fun because I cannot think of a single thing.. fighting over spawns and being trained is just not fun in my book.
What's wrong with it is that the mob is called "The Skeleton King" instead of "a skeleton king".
In an instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton King is dead, you go outside, reset the zone and kill him again in a new zone - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on lockout.
In a non-instanced dungeon, when The Skeleton king is dead, you stand by his spot and kill him again when he respawns - 15 minutes later or 2 hours later or 3 days later, depending on respawn.
Rate of entry of gear into the game needs to be managed regardless whether a dungeon is shared or instanced. In instances, it's managed by lockout, in shared world by number and frequency of spawn.
As far as your question, I completely unopposed to open world non-instanced dungeons. I am also completely unopposed to instanced dungeons. I would prefer that my game have both in good quantity and quality. I have fun doing both. The more dungeons, the better and the two provide different experiences - more types of different experiences, also better.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Open dungeons tend to be long, perilous journies - any movement from one part of the dungeon to another tends to be a guantlet of grinding through respawns. The upside of this is that it becomes noticably safer and more comfortable with a few extra people around - so it can sometimes actually be a more comfortable environment to meet people than forced grouping.
( the key is that you have to avoid competing over a specific spawn site or boss - those are where the friction comes ... its just that this may sound strange if you are coming from instanced dungeons where the bosses are the main content and everything else is just trash )
I hate instancing, so ...
why do dungeons have to be non instanced to be long, perilous journeys? When Maradon came out in WoW I spent over 6 hours in the place in one day.
Dynamic can be instanced or non and having a set lvl on a dungeon happens in all or nearly all dungeons so that isnt really a valid point either.
WoW dungeons (at least in the incarnations I've seen) can be very large and take a long time to grind through, but it's not the same kind of peril ... you don't get the same sense of claustraphobia as the dungeon closes in around you by everything behind you respawning, that same excitement of stumbling across someone else also down in the deapths. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that they're very different experiences.
I solo 1vs1 boss and win when nearly dead , some more hit and i would dead , but i manage to win his rare legend helmet. I don't have time to call my friends to help and if i wait , someone will kill it first because that boss is rare and a lots people hunt it.
It my first rare drop in this game , that helmet not my class but i never sell it and keep it until the game closed.
I don't think non-instances are better , by use instances you can created more in game active , what i don't like about instance are way developers design them.
Something like the limit of number player , and gears grind shouldn't exit in instances.
i want to join a instance with 10 of my friend , but it only limit to 5
so i have to chose 4 people and throw away 6 people ? i want to have fun with 11 people not only 5
and we have to reset it again and again for party member get all gear , it like a joke
After 10 time reset and i feel sick of it , sick of it.
Can't they just give gears through quests ?
we have quest for this dungeon ask to kill all mobs and all boss ? what we have after complete it ?
trash item to throw in npc shop