if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
Every mmo game supports grouping and being social.
given your list.....
EQ2 if you didn't group from early on you couldn't take out any mobs or do dungeons that dropped items of any importance. Soloing even con mobs was actually tedious and boring.
WoW once again a game built around dungeons and raids. sure you could solo all the way to the top, and they made soloing actually doable and functional enough that it didn't feel bad. But once again the good gear was mostly in dungeons and you would need to outlevel them by huge margin to solo the content in them.
Guildwars 2. No other game I have played has made me feel alone while with so many people. The pug outdoor raids without groups. The zerg pulls without groups. Everything was geared towards being more solo friendly than grouping. Dungeon loots were the same as other loots in the game and the whole thing just didn't work well. Alot of interesting ideas that were thrown together with very little symmetry.
Rift was a fun game no matter what you did since the class functions were vast. You could save templates and have it your way. Nothing bad to say about Rift except that most sweet gear was in dungeons or through raid tokens.
All these games were level based grinds and only a few had content that had dynamic elements to it.
EQ Next is more like Ultima Online which was more of a sandbox. Sandboxes push players to play the way they want to more than any other style game. Working together on PvP or PvE or saving towards a castle or any number of things was great fun in UO. Also soloing was amazing as well. Just getting together with a single friend worked out excellent. It catered to every style through it's game mechanics. It didn't overly reward people for one thing or another. It respected time invested in the game by allowing a person to actually have a boat and a house and all sorts of things within the house and a sales npc that could be stocked with goods so people passing by could buy from you at prices you set. There really was a huge assortment of non-grind activities you could do that were more "adventure" related than the current crop of games.
I would very much like to see the "adventure" part of the game come back with EQ Next and give players a deep and functional toolset that promotes individuality, working together, socialization, symmetry, solo and group style content with fun rewards for both.
Originally posted by CalmOceans EQ had both forced grouping and soloing, I think that's how it should be. You pick a tank, then don't expect to solo, you pick a healer, don't expect to solo, now everyone turns a switch and they're suddenly a solo class.
yeah god forbid people have options. EQs mechanics worked 15 years ago when people didn't know any better. no matter what your class you should always have the option to solo or group.
You've always had the option to solo in every single MMO that I'm aware of, so not sure what you mean.
Of course in those earlier titles it was much more efficient to group than solo, and that still is how they should be designed today IMO. Also, the game mechanics need to be taken back a step, with more built in down time mechanics allowing players the time to socialize more.
At the end of the day, perhaps you are the odd one if you socialize with no real reason or incentive to do so?
This. Grouping was a way more effective way too level specially when you got to higher levels. Also people back then where very like minded we all sought company and the downtime presented it to us. The situation we have today is fast paced combat to keep you bussy.
Thing is people will hardly socialize when there is no need for it. All i see in grouping nowadays is you group up you clear whatever the objective they had in mind and they leave all with minimal conversation apart from we need to go over yonder.
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
Really? do you even play the MMORPGs right now? go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game, do the same in Rift or EQ2.
Best loot in many games comes exclusively from Raids which is ...group based.
Very nicely avoided the real issue of making a solo-centric mmo. the real issue is that people don't feel obligated to communicate with others, they can solo as much as they want until it is necessary to find group. because a person doesn't communicate with others s/he feels actions s/he takes; whether they create inconvenience to others : "is none of my concern, i don't give a fuck". queue as tank for dungeon and do dps, when asked : "i will dps, i don't give a fuck what you want". go in dungeon and roll need on every single item that drops, if told to stop doing that cause others need those item for their class/roll "fuck you, i need whichever i feel like needing". playing GW2? let's do dungeon, all most all of the players in dungeon are "solo players", never done serious mob handling until now, someone in the group decides to formulate a strategy to face the 1st mob and someone says "i can handle things on my own, who made you the group leader?" and goes to attack all sort of mob. shall i keep going? that is the problem with solo-centric mmo. please don't say "there is a block feature" it is not a solution, it is actually a part of the problem.
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Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
Really? do you even play the MMORPGs right now? go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game, do the same in Rift or EQ2.
Best loot in many games comes exclusively from Raids which is ...group based.
My earlier reply in this thread:
"Think some might misunderstand what people mean when they say "forced" grouping.
Even in eq1 you could lvl to max lvl solo with most classes, the problem with Wow and Mmo's ever since wow is that you are basicly penalized for grouping for anything but pvp, dungeons or raids.
The beauty of eq1 was not that it forced grouping, it was that it strongly encouraged it, less chance of dieing less chance of death penalty, If you died there was less chance of having trouble retriving your corpse, and the xp gain per hour with a group was actually better then when soloing.
These days we have mmos where your overall xp gain in a grp is generally far lower, dieing dosnt mather one way or another so grouping for that purpose is out the window, and mobs dies so fast when in a group that it feels like you are constantly being rushed.
A Mmo should most definatly be possible to play solo for the most part, but grouping should be beneficial compared to soloing, which it currently isnt."
I realise that you still group in dungeons and raids, there is more to mmorpgs then endgame though.
And lets not pretend there is anytime to get to know someone while in a dungeon or a raid.
That said you bring up another intresting point though I doubt it was intentional, I miss being able to find truely awesome items outside of dungeons and raids, such as eq1 flowing black silk sash or J boots.
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
Really? do you even play the MMORPGs right now? go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game, do the same in Rift or EQ2.
Best loot in many games comes exclusively from Raids which is ...group based.
why bring raids into this discussion? we are talking about outdoor content about leveling up and the adventure it should be. Raids are forced grouping and even that is not forced much.. Hello LFD running around with 24 people wich roll their face on their keyboard and hey we win loot. 0 communication needed apart from and your gonna love this Tank and healer comminucation between themselves if they actually care because that issnt really needed. Honestly 25 people with an IQ of <50 would be able to do it.
Originally posted by CalmOceans EQ had both forced grouping and soloing, I think that's how it should be. You pick a tank, then don't expect to solo, you pick a healer, don't expect to solo, now everyone turns a switch and they're suddenly a solo class.
yeah god forbid people have options. EQs mechanics worked 15 years ago when people didn't know any better. no matter what your class you should always have the option to solo or group.
You've always had the option to solo in every single MMO that I'm aware of, so not sure what you mean.
Of course in those earlier titles it was much more efficient to group than solo, and that still is how they should be designed today IMO. Also, the game mechanics need to be taken back a step, with more built in down time mechanics allowing players the time to socialize more.
At the end of the day, perhaps you are the odd one if you socialize with no real reason or incentive to do so?
Thing is people will hardly socialize when there is no need for it. All i see in grouping nowadays is you group up you clear whatever the objective they had in mind and they leave all with minimal conversation apart from we need to go over yonder.
While I see what you're saying I don't really agree. I'll use SWG as an example again. IF you wanted you could run up to a buff bot or heal bot do your business then move along on your merry way, you could grab a way-point off a terminal and go pick up your weapon. There was no need to ever talk to anyone else. Yet most did, as the players were just different back then. They didn't need a mechanic to be social, they were social people.
People are either social or they're not, there's little in between, what it sounds like to me is many today just have a problem with breaking the ice, IE being the one to open up dialogue with others. You need to be forced into such a situation to do so.
Want to see what a truly social MMO group looks like? look up the many Bloodfin sites out there. I can find just about anyone I'd want to from 2003-04 on an active Facebook page. There's many communities like this from older MMO's, they keep in touch, they let everyone know what game is looking good to move to etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My biggest reason for not getting groups together in the last 7 years is because no one wants to go adventure and many times there is no place to go adventure because the world is designed for those that want to gain levels and loot.
Se the problem is me then because I always loved to adventure in out of the way areas of a game world if and when I could find those areas. Example being many of the low level off the beaten path areas in EQ2. Some of those places you probably never even knew existed because the loot is junk and the areas don't maximize your play time with level advancement.
actually yeah you are the problem, your choices are the problem you found the wrong group of people to play with that didnt have the same interests as you.
I had the opposite interaction in game i remember a guildy saying "hey guys i found something cool! you should check it out" a few of us when to the guildmate grouped and found this (at the time) hidden semi dungeon/jumping puzzle.
Yes it like I said you're on a level treadmill and loot thing with these MMOs and my entire guild left the game to go to another level treadmill popular game which I won't mention. I joined a new guild and do the end game runs just like you and when a good piece I don't have goes to auction channel I usually try to buy it out. BUT read that again. It is not what I want to do and I don't put the groups together anymore.
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game
played my troll druid resto in raid finder. watched tv and pressed aoe heal button every 4-6 sec. never got kick.
as long u are healer or dps u can just press 1 button when u feel like it.
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game
played my troll druid resto in raid finder. watched tv and pressed aoe heal button every 4-6 sec. never got kick.
as long u are healer or dps u can just press 1 button when u feel like it.
LFR isn't really a raid. It's just a glorified dungeon with more people. Try those antics on normal or Hardcore difficulty and you will get kicked and /ignored by everyone in the raid.
if you need a game to promote mechanics that FORCE people to group with you ... you are the problem. I have run with groups constantly in EQ2, WoW, Guild Wars 2, Rift and countless other "solo MMORPGs".
see thats the beauty of MMORPGs right now, people have options, they can either solo or they can group IF THEY WANT. recently in guild wars 2 my guild took 2 groups and started over, just running from event to event leveling up some new players from another guild game. it was amazing and fun but if someone wanted to go and do their own thing they could by themselves.
forced grouping to do anything in a game is bad game design, sorry but someone has to say it. sure there should be some content that can only be done as a group however designing the whole game NOW around the concept of "you must group or get left behind" is destined to fail.
so to all those out there saying they can't find groups or the community feeling and games need to force grouping. its most likely YOUR attitude that's keeping people from interacting and grouping with you.
I love that people make up these buzzwords like "Forced Grouping".
It wasnt "Forced grouping" when EQ1 came out because MMO's were designed to be played with multiple people at a time.
The enemies were more difficult so you needed a strong group dynamic to continue, in the sense of a true Roleplaying experiance, it was neccesary to have friends that assumed the role of other Party Members, similar to what you would find in a single player RPG where NPC's acted as your party members.
All MMO's did was say, "Hey you know those other party members you have in that single player game, WHAT IF THEY WERE PEOPLE!?!" And upon the advent of Modern Technology we all said "HELL YEAH! People are so much fun!"
And then some people were dicks, which forced people to rethink how they wanted to play their MMO's and at a time a Majority agreed that Solo-Friendly was the way to go.
So its not forced grouping your against, your against what can easily be described as a "Conservative View" on MMORPG's, which me and many others still hold is a more intelligent and rewarding experiance. It doesnt mean either way is right or wrong, and to claim that people are a "Problem" because they want a game with mechanics that allow for increased roleplaying is just dickish.
Truth be told I don't mind if grouping isnt forced, however in a mmo there should be significant advantages to grouping over soloing, which hasnt really been the case since eq1, which is a problem.
go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game
This video is exactly my problem with todays mmos, thanks for posting it, at the very least it reassured me that I have been correct all this time about todays mmos.
I love that people make up these buzzwords like "Forced Grouping".
It wasnt "Forced grouping" when EQ1 came out because MMO's were designed to be played with multiple people at a time.
The enemies were more difficult so you needed a strong group dynamic to continue, in the sense of a true Roleplaying experiance, it was neccesary to have friends that assumed the role of other Party Members, similar to what you would find in a single player RPG where NPC's acted as your party members.
Needed = Forced
Strong Group = Grouping
'Needed a strong group' = Forced grouping.
It's not a made up term. it's the reality of what it is. Just because you used a synonym doesn't make the term inapplicable.
Forced grouping makes people that don't want to group, group. That makes them unfun to be with as they ignore your conversation and rush through the content to get to their goal as fast as possible and dump the extra people that they wanted nothing to do with and were forced to interact with so they could get full value out of the money they spent on the game.
Let those people solo, even raid content tuned down to solo instances, and let the people who like meeting people and adventuring together group up. Don't mix the two or you will just have a group of unhappy players.
If you can't group up on your own, and you need to force others to play the game YOUR WAY, then not only are you selfish and intolerant, but you must have some innate inability to attract companions.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 Halp! I want to leave the city, but I can't go solo! I've been here for three weeks! Please group with me!!!!!!!!!
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
I love that people make up these buzzwords like "Forced Grouping".
It wasnt "Forced grouping" when EQ1 came out because MMO's were designed to be played with multiple people at a time.
The enemies were more difficult so you needed a strong group dynamic to continue, in the sense of a true Roleplaying experiance, it was neccesary to have friends that assumed the role of other Party Members, similar to what you would find in a single player RPG where NPC's acted as your party members.
Needed = Forced
Strong Group = Grouping
'Needed a strong group' = Forced grouping.
It's not a made up term. it's the reality of what it is. Just because you used a synonym doesn't make the term inapplicable.
Forced grouping makes people that don't want to group, group. That makes them unfun to be with as they ignore your conversation and rush through the content to get to their goal as fast as possible and dump the extra people that they wanted nothing to do with and were forced to interact with so they could get full value out of the money they spent on the game.
Let those people solo, even raid content tuned down to solo instances, and let the people who like meeting people and adventuring together group up. Don't mix the two or you will just have a group of unhappy players.
If you can't group up on your own, and you need to force others to play the game YOUR WAY, then not only are you selfish and intolerant, but you must have some innate inability to attract companions.
And just because you gave a single example of a bad group doesnt mean thats how it always is. And it is not applicable as I said because MMO's were built on the idea of Multiplayer. Im sorry that the sudden switch is now in favor of the solo player but that doesnt mean grouping was forced to begin with.
Forced grouping means literally "An Involuntary set of people with a common purpose". That doesnt make any logical sense, how can you involuntarily force people to come to a common purpose in an MMO wen your purchasing the game, fully understanding its content to begin with? If solo is the new focus then why keep calling them MMO's, why not online multiplayer?
Think of it this way, if someone put you and a random person on an island where your only way of survival was to work with them daily to mine a giant rock wall to get the food buried behind it. That would be Forced grouping.
But this is a video game not real life, in a video game you can cheat the system and live off 1 health point a day chipping away for years until you finally solo'd the giant rock wall and got the food all for yourself (BTW you killed the other guy in this scneario because there's FFA PVP). Thus in an MMO or any video game its impossible to have FORCED GROUPING, because you can still do the content it will just take years and years to complete.
Originally posted by CalmOceans EQ had both forced grouping and soloing, I think that's how it should be. You pick a tank, then don't expect to solo, you pick a healer, don't expect to solo, now everyone turns a switch and they're suddenly a solo class.
no matter what your class you should always have the option to solo or group.
Why. Do you drive your own train in RL? Sometimes you need to talk to other people. Would be a pretty boring world if no one was ever forced to talk to other people.
You can choose not to take the train and drive your private car, but if you want to play certain classes, you hop onto the train.
It worked for EQ and still does.
I ride trains all the time and I dont talk to anyone in them or require to talk to ride the train.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by xeniarOriginally posted by KyleranOriginally posted by EcocesOriginally posted by CalmOceansEQ had both forced grouping and soloing, I think that's how it should be. You pick a tank, then don't expect to solo, you pick a healer, don't expect to solo, now everyone turns a switch and they're suddenly a solo class.
yeah god forbid people have options. EQs mechanics worked 15 years ago when people didn't know any better. no matter what your class you should always have the option to solo or group.You've always had the option to solo in every single MMO that I'm aware of, so not sure what you mean.Of course in those earlier titles it was much more efficient to group than solo, and that still is how they should be designed today IMO. Also, the game mechanics need to be taken back a step, with more built in down time mechanics allowing players the time to socialize more.At the end of the day, perhaps you are the odd one if you socialize with no real reason or incentive to do so?Thing is people will hardly socialize when there is no need for it. All i see in grouping nowadays is you group up you clear whatever the objective they had in mind and they leave all with minimal conversation apart from we need to go over yonder.While I see what you're saying I don't really agree. I'll use SWG as an example again. IF you wanted you could run up to a buff bot or heal bot do your business then move along on your merry way, you could grab a way-point off a terminal and go pick up your weapon. There was no need to ever talk to anyone else. Yet most did, as the players were just different back then. They didn't need a mechanic to be social, they were social people.
People are either social or they're not, there's little in between, what it sounds like to me is many today just have a problem with breaking the ice, IE being the one to open up dialogue with others. You need to be forced into such a situation to do so.
Want to see what a truly social MMO group looks like? look up the many Bloodfin sites out there. I can find just about anyone I'd want to from 2003-04 on an active Facebook page. There's many communities like this from older MMO's, they keep in touch, they let everyone know what game is looking good to move to etc...
It was easier to break the ice in games like SWG because there were simply more things to talk about and ask of other players. Current mmos do not require much communication because the game mechanics are so basic, you barely need to say a couple words to accomplish most of your goals.
When you add in the diversity of classes, interdependencies, and customization like in SWG, it opened up a lot dialog relevant to the game. Players provided other players with a ton of choices through their classes and it all necessitated exstensive communication. Stats on weapons, slices, food, color schemes, stat caps, buff types. So much of that game was customized for players by players.
Instant "community" to socialize with, group with, trade with, etc.
EQ was like a small town. You might of known a lot of people either personally or by reputation, but the population was fairly small. People helped each other and grouping while maybe "forced", seemed natural as that was what people did.
GW2/WoW are like huge cities. No, you won't know the majority of people and they will walk right past you if you are bleeding on the street, but there are still chunks of like minded people that live within a certain area or even building that share your mindset and will talk to you.
Do people think that those in GW2/WoW and that are in guilds, do not talk? They have empty voice/chat servers and mindlessly do raids without communicating? Really?
PUGs are what they are. Some are awesome, some are horrible. It's like going to the park and playing basketball with random people. Some might be jerks and elbow you in the face or just be horrible. While you might find a great group of players that you keep coming back for every week.
I've joined random groups and had great conversations (made friends) and I've joined others and not said a word. Both allowed me to accomplish some goal that was easier then solo. Even grouped with people when it wasn't advantageous because I was bored and wanted to talk to someone in the area.
No game system will hand you friends, community, or even a nice conversation. You have to do it on your own.
Using my example above. If I wanted to play serious basketball, I would join a team/league and play with people I know are hopefully there to be serious and not just to pass the time. Same goes for raiding or hard content.
The video posted of how sad WoW has become is just that. An example of how horrible the game itself has become, that is not because of a bad community, that is on Blizzard making content so mindless that you don't need to talk or even play properly to win. I'm sure there is plenty of content for well organized guilds to do, or even to do the same mindless content, but have a good time doing so.
EQN seems to be offering many ways for what EQ had to happen more naturally and hopefully brings back what many are missing. I see it being a little slower paced and with a huge world, people might not leave an area for a while, giving more time for communicating with the same pool of people.
If there isn't a huge rush to lvl 10000 by going zone to zone as quickly as possible or to kill the biggest dragon in the world within 24 hours of release, maybe people will take time to build a house, craft, and get to know their neighbor (do you have any lumber I can borrow?).
But again, I feel it is on each of us individually. If you are having a bad social experience, change your approach. Don't blame the game for being too solo friendly. Just because you can play alone, doesn't mean you have to.
While I see what you're saying I don't really agree. I'll use SWG as an example again. IF you wanted you could run up to a buff bot or heal bot do your business then move along on your merry way, you could grab a way-point off a terminal and go pick up your weapon. There was no need to ever talk to anyone else. Yet most did, as the players were just different back then. They didn't need a mechanic to be social, they were social people.
People are either social or they're not, there's little in between, what it sounds like to me is many today just have a problem with breaking the ice, IE being the one to open up dialogue with others. You need to be forced into such a situation to do so.
Want to see what a truly social MMO group looks like? look up the many Bloodfin sites out there. I can find just about anyone I'd want to from 2003-04 on an active Facebook page. There's many communities like this from older MMO's, they keep in touch, they let everyone know what game is looking good to move to etc...
It was easier to break the ice in games like SWG because there were simply more things to talk about and ask of other players. Current mmos do not require much communication because the game mechanics are so basic, you barely need to say a couple words to accomplish most of your goals.
When you add in the diversity of classes, interdependencies, and customization like in SWG, it opened up a lot dialog relevant to the game. Players provided other players with a ton of choices through their classes and it all necessitated exstensive communication. Stats on weapons, slices, food, color schemes, stat caps, buff types. So much of that game was customized for players by players.
I still can't really agree, most of that is stuff min-maxers worry/talk about.
Most of my ice-breakers in SWG came from the SW material, same with AOC and the Conan material. Most build discussion I had any part in were on the forums. I met my guild because I did decent in PVP. None of my long term social relationships in SWG came from asking questions about game mechanics.
If the topic here was about talking in passing I'd agree, but building community and friendships goes far beyond that. You have to want that to form that, without the want it doesn't happen. There are many games I didn't care enough about to care to make friends there. I think that's the issue many others have as well. But hey that's just my view.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most of my ice-breakers in SWG came from the SW material, same with AOC and the Conan material. Most build discussion I had any part in were on the forums. I met my guild because I did decent in PVP. None of my long term social relationships in SWG came from asking questions about game mechanics.
If the topic here was about talking in passing I'd agree, but building community and friendships goes far beyond that. You have to want that to form that, without the want it doesn't happen. There are many games I didn't care enough about to care to make friends there. I think that's the issue many others have as well. But hey that's just my view.
Of course. Im not saying the game mechanics made people have lasting friendships. Im saying that SWG offered so many ways to initiate a conversation. Once you talked to someone a few times about game stuff, it makes it that much easier to segue into real life. Ice breaking is all it is. But thats an important step to discovering new friendships. Games like SWG by their design allowed for a TON more ice breaking opportunities than mainstream MMOs today.
I ride trains all the time and I dont talk to anyone in them or require to talk to ride the train.
Maybe you should ask yourself if MMO are for you then. A lot of people would be better off playing single player games.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to play solo at times or during certain types of situations like leveling. When you're with a group, you're playing how they are, at their pace and on their time, being forced into that at all times would get old fast. People talk about mechanics removing freedom, nothing would remove it more than having to play that way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I ride trains all the time and I dont talk to anyone in them or require to talk to ride the train.
Maybe you should ask yourself if MMO are for you then. A lot of people would be better off playing single player games.
That's like telling someone they shouldn't go to a party because they are shy and like to stand in the back and be around people rather than out dancing with them. Some just like to be with other people even if they aren't talking to them.
Comments
Every mmo game supports grouping and being social.
given your list.....
EQ2 if you didn't group from early on you couldn't take out any mobs or do dungeons that dropped items of any importance. Soloing even con mobs was actually tedious and boring.
WoW once again a game built around dungeons and raids. sure you could solo all the way to the top, and they made soloing actually doable and functional enough that it didn't feel bad. But once again the good gear was mostly in dungeons and you would need to outlevel them by huge margin to solo the content in them.
Guildwars 2. No other game I have played has made me feel alone while with so many people. The pug outdoor raids without groups. The zerg pulls without groups. Everything was geared towards being more solo friendly than grouping. Dungeon loots were the same as other loots in the game and the whole thing just didn't work well. Alot of interesting ideas that were thrown together with very little symmetry.
Rift was a fun game no matter what you did since the class functions were vast. You could save templates and have it your way. Nothing bad to say about Rift except that most sweet gear was in dungeons or through raid tokens.
All these games were level based grinds and only a few had content that had dynamic elements to it.
EQ Next is more like Ultima Online which was more of a sandbox. Sandboxes push players to play the way they want to more than any other style game. Working together on PvP or PvE or saving towards a castle or any number of things was great fun in UO. Also soloing was amazing as well. Just getting together with a single friend worked out excellent. It catered to every style through it's game mechanics. It didn't overly reward people for one thing or another. It respected time invested in the game by allowing a person to actually have a boat and a house and all sorts of things within the house and a sales npc that could be stocked with goods so people passing by could buy from you at prices you set. There really was a huge assortment of non-grind activities you could do that were more "adventure" related than the current crop of games.
I would very much like to see the "adventure" part of the game come back with EQ Next and give players a deep and functional toolset that promotes individuality, working together, socialization, symmetry, solo and group style content with fun rewards for both.
This. Grouping was a way more effective way too level specially when you got to higher levels. Also people back then where very like minded we all sought company and the downtime presented it to us. The situation we have today is fast paced combat to keep you bussy.
Thing is people will hardly socialize when there is no need for it. All i see in grouping nowadays is you group up you clear whatever the objective they had in mind and they leave all with minimal conversation apart from we need to go over yonder.
Really? do you even play the MMORPGs right now? go solo in WoW and try to get the best loot in the game, do the same in Rift or EQ2.
Best loot in many games comes exclusively from Raids which is ...group based.
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My earlier reply in this thread:
"Think some might misunderstand what people mean when they say "forced" grouping.
Even in eq1 you could lvl to max lvl solo with most classes, the problem with Wow and Mmo's ever since wow is that you are basicly penalized for grouping for anything but pvp, dungeons or raids.
The beauty of eq1 was not that it forced grouping, it was that it strongly encouraged it, less chance of dieing less chance of death penalty, If you died there was less chance of having trouble retriving your corpse, and the xp gain per hour with a group was actually better then when soloing.
These days we have mmos where your overall xp gain in a grp is generally far lower, dieing dosnt mather one way or another so grouping for that purpose is out the window, and mobs dies so fast when in a group that it feels like you are constantly being rushed.
A Mmo should most definatly be possible to play solo for the most part, but grouping should be beneficial compared to soloing, which it currently isnt."
I realise that you still group in dungeons and raids, there is more to mmorpgs then endgame though.
And lets not pretend there is anytime to get to know someone while in a dungeon or a raid.
That said you bring up another intresting point though I doubt it was intentional, I miss being able to find truely awesome items outside of dungeons and raids, such as eq1 flowing black silk sash or J boots.
why bring raids into this discussion? we are talking about outdoor content about leveling up and the adventure it should be. Raids are forced grouping and even that is not forced much.. Hello LFD running around with 24 people wich roll their face on their keyboard and hey we win loot. 0 communication needed apart from and your gonna love this Tank and healer comminucation between themselves if they actually care because that issnt really needed. Honestly 25 people with an IQ of <50 would be able to do it.
While I see what you're saying I don't really agree. I'll use SWG as an example again. IF you wanted you could run up to a buff bot or heal bot do your business then move along on your merry way, you could grab a way-point off a terminal and go pick up your weapon. There was no need to ever talk to anyone else. Yet most did, as the players were just different back then. They didn't need a mechanic to be social, they were social people.
People are either social or they're not, there's little in between, what it sounds like to me is many today just have a problem with breaking the ice, IE being the one to open up dialogue with others. You need to be forced into such a situation to do so.
Want to see what a truly social MMO group looks like? look up the many Bloodfin sites out there. I can find just about anyone I'd want to from 2003-04 on an active Facebook page. There's many communities like this from older MMO's, they keep in touch, they let everyone know what game is looking good to move to etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yes it like I said you're on a level treadmill and loot thing with these MMOs and my entire guild left the game to go to another level treadmill popular game which I won't mention. I joined a new guild and do the end game runs just like you and when a good piece I don't have goes to auction channel I usually try to buy it out. BUT read that again. It is not what I want to do and I don't put the groups together anymore.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
played my troll druid resto in raid finder. watched tv and pressed aoe heal button every 4-6 sec. never got kick.
as long u are healer or dps u can just press 1 button when u feel like it.
LFR isn't really a raid. It's just a glorified dungeon with more people. Try those antics on normal or Hardcore difficulty and you will get kicked and /ignored by everyone in the raid.
I love that people make up these buzzwords like "Forced Grouping".
It wasnt "Forced grouping" when EQ1 came out because MMO's were designed to be played with multiple people at a time.
The enemies were more difficult so you needed a strong group dynamic to continue, in the sense of a true Roleplaying experiance, it was neccesary to have friends that assumed the role of other Party Members, similar to what you would find in a single player RPG where NPC's acted as your party members.
All MMO's did was say, "Hey you know those other party members you have in that single player game, WHAT IF THEY WERE PEOPLE!?!" And upon the advent of Modern Technology we all said "HELL YEAH! People are so much fun!"
And then some people were dicks, which forced people to rethink how they wanted to play their MMO's and at a time a Majority agreed that Solo-Friendly was the way to go.
So its not forced grouping your against, your against what can easily be described as a "Conservative View" on MMORPG's, which me and many others still hold is a more intelligent and rewarding experiance. It doesnt mean either way is right or wrong, and to claim that people are a "Problem" because they want a game with mechanics that allow for increased roleplaying is just dickish.
J-Hun Lookin to Creep Yall!
This video is exactly my problem with todays mmos, thanks for posting it, at the very least it reassured me that I have been correct all this time about todays mmos.
Needed = Forced
Strong Group = Grouping
'Needed a strong group' = Forced grouping.
It's not a made up term. it's the reality of what it is. Just because you used a synonym doesn't make the term inapplicable.
Forced grouping makes people that don't want to group, group. That makes them unfun to be with as they ignore your conversation and rush through the content to get to their goal as fast as possible and dump the extra people that they wanted nothing to do with and were forced to interact with so they could get full value out of the money they spent on the game.
Let those people solo, even raid content tuned down to solo instances, and let the people who like meeting people and adventuring together group up. Don't mix the two or you will just have a group of unhappy players.
If you can't group up on your own, and you need to force others to play the game YOUR WAY, then not only are you selfish and intolerant, but you must have some innate inability to attract companions.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Has there ever been a game other than FXI where everything your level would kill you and it was impossible to solo? That is honestly the only one I can think of where it wasn't possible to solo. Well at least back in the day it wasn't, I know it has changed over the last few years.
And just because you gave a single example of a bad group doesnt mean thats how it always is. And it is not applicable as I said because MMO's were built on the idea of Multiplayer. Im sorry that the sudden switch is now in favor of the solo player but that doesnt mean grouping was forced to begin with.
Forced grouping means literally "An Involuntary set of people with a common purpose". That doesnt make any logical sense, how can you involuntarily force people to come to a common purpose in an MMO wen your purchasing the game, fully understanding its content to begin with? If solo is the new focus then why keep calling them MMO's, why not online multiplayer?
Think of it this way, if someone put you and a random person on an island where your only way of survival was to work with them daily to mine a giant rock wall to get the food buried behind it. That would be Forced grouping.But this is a video game not real life, in a video game you can cheat the system and live off 1 health point a day chipping away for years until you finally solo'd the giant rock wall and got the food all for yourself (BTW you killed the other guy in this scneario because there's FFA PVP). Thus in an MMO or any video game its impossible to have FORCED GROUPING, because you can still do the content it will just take years and years to complete.
J-Hun Lookin to Creep Yall!
I ride trains all the time and I dont talk to anyone in them or require to talk to ride the train.
You've always had the option to solo in every single MMO that I'm aware of, so not sure what you mean. Of course in those earlier titles it was much more efficient to group than solo, and that still is how they should be designed today IMO. Also, the game mechanics need to be taken back a step, with more built in down time mechanics allowing players the time to socialize more. At the end of the day, perhaps you are the odd one if you socialize with no real reason or incentive to do so?
Thing is people will hardly socialize when there is no need for it. All i see in grouping nowadays is you group up you clear whatever the objective they had in mind and they leave all with minimal conversation apart from we need to go over yonder.
While I see what you're saying I don't really agree. I'll use SWG as an example again. IF you wanted you could run up to a buff bot or heal bot do your business then move along on your merry way, you could grab a way-point off a terminal and go pick up your weapon. There was no need to ever talk to anyone else. Yet most did, as the players were just different back then. They didn't need a mechanic to be social, they were social people.
People are either social or they're not, there's little in between, what it sounds like to me is many today just have a problem with breaking the ice, IE being the one to open up dialogue with others. You need to be forced into such a situation to do so.
Want to see what a truly social MMO group looks like? look up the many Bloodfin sites out there. I can find just about anyone I'd want to from 2003-04 on an active Facebook page. There's many communities like this from older MMO's, they keep in touch, they let everyone know what game is looking good to move to etc...
It was easier to break the ice in games like SWG because there were simply more things to talk about and ask of other players. Current mmos do not require much communication because the game mechanics are so basic, you barely need to say a couple words to accomplish most of your goals.
When you add in the diversity of classes, interdependencies, and customization like in SWG, it opened up a lot dialog relevant to the game. Players provided other players with a ton of choices through their classes and it all necessitated exstensive communication. Stats on weapons, slices, food, color schemes, stat caps, buff types. So much of that game was customized for players by players.
For those having issues, join a guild...simple
Instant "community" to socialize with, group with, trade with, etc.
EQ was like a small town. You might of known a lot of people either personally or by reputation, but the population was fairly small. People helped each other and grouping while maybe "forced", seemed natural as that was what people did.
GW2/WoW are like huge cities. No, you won't know the majority of people and they will walk right past you if you are bleeding on the street, but there are still chunks of like minded people that live within a certain area or even building that share your mindset and will talk to you.
Do people think that those in GW2/WoW and that are in guilds, do not talk? They have empty voice/chat servers and mindlessly do raids without communicating? Really?
PUGs are what they are. Some are awesome, some are horrible. It's like going to the park and playing basketball with random people. Some might be jerks and elbow you in the face or just be horrible. While you might find a great group of players that you keep coming back for every week.
I've joined random groups and had great conversations (made friends) and I've joined others and not said a word. Both allowed me to accomplish some goal that was easier then solo. Even grouped with people when it wasn't advantageous because I was bored and wanted to talk to someone in the area.
No game system will hand you friends, community, or even a nice conversation. You have to do it on your own.
Using my example above. If I wanted to play serious basketball, I would join a team/league and play with people I know are hopefully there to be serious and not just to pass the time. Same goes for raiding or hard content.
The video posted of how sad WoW has become is just that. An example of how horrible the game itself has become, that is not because of a bad community, that is on Blizzard making content so mindless that you don't need to talk or even play properly to win. I'm sure there is plenty of content for well organized guilds to do, or even to do the same mindless content, but have a good time doing so.
EQN seems to be offering many ways for what EQ had to happen more naturally and hopefully brings back what many are missing. I see it being a little slower paced and with a huge world, people might not leave an area for a while, giving more time for communicating with the same pool of people.
If there isn't a huge rush to lvl 10000 by going zone to zone as quickly as possible or to kill the biggest dragon in the world within 24 hours of release, maybe people will take time to build a house, craft, and get to know their neighbor (do you have any lumber I can borrow?).
But again, I feel it is on each of us individually. If you are having a bad social experience, change your approach. Don't blame the game for being too solo friendly. Just because you can play alone, doesn't mean you have to.
I still can't really agree, most of that is stuff min-maxers worry/talk about.
Most of my ice-breakers in SWG came from the SW material, same with AOC and the Conan material. Most build discussion I had any part in were on the forums. I met my guild because I did decent in PVP. None of my long term social relationships in SWG came from asking questions about game mechanics.
If the topic here was about talking in passing I'd agree, but building community and friendships goes far beyond that. You have to want that to form that, without the want it doesn't happen. There are many games I didn't care enough about to care to make friends there. I think that's the issue many others have as well. But hey that's just my view.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maybe you should ask yourself if MMO are for you then. A lot of people would be better off playing single player games.
Of course. Im not saying the game mechanics made people have lasting friendships. Im saying that SWG offered so many ways to initiate a conversation. Once you talked to someone a few times about game stuff, it makes it that much easier to segue into real life. Ice breaking is all it is. But thats an important step to discovering new friendships. Games like SWG by their design allowed for a TON more ice breaking opportunities than mainstream MMOs today.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to play solo at times or during certain types of situations like leveling. When you're with a group, you're playing how they are, at their pace and on their time, being forced into that at all times would get old fast. People talk about mechanics removing freedom, nothing would remove it more than having to play that way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's like telling someone they shouldn't go to a party because they are shy and like to stand in the back and be around people rather than out dancing with them. Some just like to be with other people even if they aren't talking to them.