They said Trinity isn't needed. They never said there would be a situation you wouldn't need a certain ability or ability type to be more accurate.
They are talking about the drawback of traditional roles and only one person being able to fill them. The real question is how their AI is going to keep this type of system from being a spam fest.
No if this article is right its not taking the focus off the trinity, its not even a option short term in a team. I get adding more way to control the battle and have many ways to make a team work but the trinity should be an option short term in a team. If you try and use it long term in a fight a mobs AI should change tactics so you need to use other team members skills and brains. Stuns, knock backs, pets, etc. But this is not the case, you can not tank and heal at all. There is zero aggro management.
Not wanting to go totally against you Nanfoodle as I agree with your concerns BUT...
You dont need "aggro management" to need the trinity (or any variation of specialist classing)
games like Warhammer came up with a way to TANK without the need for a meaningless taunt (their taunt had actual effects)
I agree a bit on the no trinity debate. I think no trinity can work, but there isn't a huge benefit of making a game without a trinity because the trinity does work well. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. It takes a lot more effort to make a no trinity system work than a going with the tired and true holy trinity system.
GW2 has no trinity per say (you can still build tank, healer, or DPS in the game, a Thief coupled with a Ranger or Elementalist can serve as a group healer by comboing off water fields for example and my Ranger basically played the tank role in groups) replaced with what they claimed was a new kind of trinity in Control/Support/DPS. Well, as many here will tell you it didn't work well, and it was mostly the fault of bad PvE and to an extent bad class design. To make a no Trinity system work the AI is going to have to work a lot harder and be more compelling and honestly I don't believe we are there yet despite what SoE devs may be saying. Despite tanking on Ranger working well enough it really wasn't necessary and I always felt like I was gimping my group by playing that way even though we did succeed at reaching top levels on Fractals if I played any other class and just went pure DPS we would have done it much faster.
My biggest worry is that they said there will be no need for healers or tanks. If anyone has played GW2 there really isn't any reason to bring anything other than Mesmers and Warriors to explorable mode dungeons and only at high level Fractals do other professions really become useful due to reflect shields (so it just shifts to Mesmer/Elementalist/Guardian). Just because you "remove" the trinity doesn't mean you should remove skills that let you effectively tank and heal others. GW2 was missing heavy group dynamics and generally just devolved into stack DPS and zerg the boss as a result. Support was minimal and something any class with a Warhorn could do without wasting much time at all. Control was non-existant with Defiance stacks and nothing that required using it ever (I mean they touted Control as being a big part of GW2 then they designed no encounters that require using it at all?). Some people really enjoy having roles in group and will only play a CC, DPS, Healer, or Tank. Why can't we get rid of the Trinity by having every class have the ability to heal or tank to a lesser degree than dedicated roles so it becomes more about using the abilities that let you do so at the appropriate time and effectively swapping roles in combat optimally?
I know some people don't want to accept that this is GW2 style
That's extremely relative. As far as it was explained, if you want to be a healer you can just pick a class with 4 utility slots and fill them up with a direct heal, an aoe heal, a heal over time and an absorb shield. You'll have 4 viable DPS/CC/knockback/whatever skills on top of that but i don't see why one would suddenly brand this "GW2-style" for any other reason than trying to create drama.
You mean like the way a Guardian in GW2 can equip the following:
MH Mace - #2 Symbol of Faith, gives regeneration and retaliation to nearby allies, #3 Protector's strike, surround yourself and allies with a shield that blocks attacks and grants protection.
OH Shield - #4 Shield of Faith, decreases damage for allies by 33%, #5 Shield of Absorption, create a dome around yourself and allies that blocks projectiles and can activate again for AoE Heal.
Heal Slot - Healing Breeze, AoE for you and allies
Utility Slot 1 - Merciful Intervention, teleport to nearest ally with lowest health and heal them + grant regen (single target heal!)
Utility Slot 2 - Sanctuary, Create a dome that projectiles and foes cannot enter, grant regeneration to allies in the dome.
Utility Slot 3 - Retreat!, grant switness and Aegis to allies (aegis blocks the next attack = zero damage) good to use before a big hit from a boss.
Elite Skill - Tome of Courage, gives you 20 seconds of 5 new abilities that buff, heal and support allies.
Each class in GW2 can be built in such a way as to provide alternate roles for the group. But you don't NEED any of them, so when you don't NEED something, no one bothers.
Ah, my bad then, when everyone was saying everyone is DPS in GW2 I litterally thought it was because you couldn't spec for healing at all. Thanks for the explanation.
Still sounds as though the game suffered alot more from a massive balancing issue there. I want healing to be equally viable and for there to be strategy in making a good group setup in EQN.
I know some people don't want to accept that this is GW2 style
That's extremely relative. As far as it was explained, if you want to be a healer you can just pick a class with 4 utility slots and fill them up with a direct heal, an aoe heal, a heal over time and an absorb shield. You'll have 4 viable DPS/CC/knockback/whatever skills on top of that but i don't see why one would suddenly brand this "GW2-style" for any other reason than trying to create drama.
You mean like the way a Guardian in GW2 can equip the following:
MH Mace - #2 Symbol of Faith, gives regeneration and retaliation to nearby allies, #3 Protector's strike, surround yourself and allies with a shield that blocks attacks and grants protection.
OH Shield - #4 Shield of Faith, decreases damage for allies by 33%, #5 Shield of Absorption, create a dome around yourself and allies that blocks projectiles and can activate again for AoE Heal.
Heal Slot - Healing Breeze, AoE for you and allies
Utility Slot 1 - Merciful Intervention, teleport to nearest ally with lowest health and heal them + grant regen (single target heal!)
Utility Slot 2 - Sanctuary, Create a dome that projectiles and foes cannot enter, grant regeneration to allies in the dome.
Utility Slot 3 - Retreat!, grant switness and Aegis to allies (aegis blocks the next attack = zero damage) good to use before a big hit from a boss.
Elite Skill - Tome of Courage, gives you 20 seconds of 5 new abilities that buff, heal and support allies.
Each class in GW2 can be built in such a way as to provide alternate roles for the group. But you don't NEED any of them, so when you don't NEED something, no one bothers.
Ah, my bad then, when everyone was saying everyone is DPS in GW2 I litterally thought it was because you couldn't spec for healing at all. Thanks for the explanation.
Still sounds as though the game suffered alot more from a massive balancing issue there. I want healing to be equally viable and for there to be strategy in making a good group setup in EQN.
Even though I enjoy GW2, yes there is a balance issue between gear types (berserker gear is far too potent and is the reason behind people's preference for it). I too, would like to see a more measured approach that encourages various roles.
Why can't we get rid of the Trinity by having every class have the ability to heal or tank to a lesser degree than dedicated roles so it becomes more about using the abilities that let you do so at the appropriate time and effectively swapping roles in combat optimally?
You can
and what you have done is remove classes defenitions altogether
Everyone is now the same.
as I said before... i can heal and dps and tank and CC..... a bit
but I do it with a fire animation....o... I can do all that but i do it with a bow....
O really ?
I do all that but with a big stick animation.
On top of the bland we are all the same smushiness of that
There is the lack of replayablity
WHY BOTHER ever playing a 2nd toon if they are all the same.
If EQN does not blow peoples socks off with its OTHER features it will be a lower middle runner within its first year, because this approach to strategy and combat is very bad.
P.S. people who think a smarter AI is going to make this work are dreaming.
A better AI (at its very best) will make it like PvP with no classes, just DPS.. that heal a bit and dodge a bit and CC a bit
2nd P.S. I want this game to be good, unlike many posters I LOVE the graphical style, I love their world and sandbox ideas and allot of the other great stuff in this interview.
I think a big problem is that a lot of people think GW2 Combat failed because of No-Trinity, instead of just bad combat design, you should realize that EQN actually can't have trinity because of the AI, and if the AI is so advanced that trinity doesn't work, I wouldn't be surprised if zerging a fight isn't actually possible, I think it means you will require an actual group strategy and tactics beyond "Mobs attack Tank, Healer heals Tank, DPS kills mobs".
i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
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i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
Thats the problem, the delivery. If you have something different why would you not lead with that then saying, nope, no trinity and no aggro management? They have to see from what they have told us it is sounding more and more like GW2.
1. AI does not break the trinity, if you think it will you are thinking of a WoW style trinity (taunt mob, DPS mob, heal tank)
allot of games have come up with much better ways of tanking than that old WoW style taunt (CC blocking etc)
2. MANY games have had no tab targeting and some did it a while back (AoC for one) it works fine and does not require the removal of class distinction.
the issue is NOT about changing the trinity.
Its about the stated goal that NO CLASS WILL BE NEEDED.
Now the only way that can be true is if ANY class combination can be effective.
At which point you may as well all load up the classes that will finish the content fastest.
True you may choose to play the hard way, play builds that CC and Tank and heal but you are now numbered with the people hwo play on RP servers...you are doing it DESPITE the game
I know some people don't want to accept that this is GW2 style
That's extremely relative. As far as it was explained, if you want to be a healer you can just pick a class with 4 utility slots and fill them up with a direct heal, an aoe heal, a heal over time and an absorb shield. You'll have 4 viable DPS/CC/knockback/whatever skills on top of that but i don't see why one would suddenly brand this "GW2-style" for any other reason than trying to create drama.
First.. as I recall since this is twitch combat and NOT tab targeting, (which they did say is NOT in the game).. How do I direct heal another player if I can not target them? AOE heals, sure.. but others, not.. Plus I seriously down you'll find a class in the game that will give you that options of having those healing skills and options.. I doubt slots will allow it , NOR the energy to cast them..
i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
Thats the problem, the delivery. If you have something different why would you not lead with that then saying, nope, no trinity and no aggro management? They have to see from what they have told us it is sounding more and more like GW2.
I think there was simply not enough time over the weekend to tell the whole story. Added to that was the shock of the playerbase and the consequent focus on lack of trinity that seemed to put the EQN Dev team more on the defensive. As we saw just a couple of days ago, Dave is preparing a statement to address these concerns about EQN being like GW2. Let's wait until we hear more before speculation and assumption get too out of control.
Originally posted by RydesonFirst.. as I recall since this is twitch combat and NOT tab targeting, (which they did say is NOT in the game).. How do I direct heal another player if I can not target them? AOE heals, sure.. but others, not.. Plus I seriously down you'll find a class in the game that will give you that options of having those healing skills and options.. I doubt slots will allow it , NOR the energy to cast them..
GO play TERA for a bit (its F2P)
You will see how to do action based combat with no tab targeting but still have healers (very important healers)
Not to mention tanks that are all about dodging and avoidance (warrior) and blocking and CC (lancer)
They will nurf healing and defensive skills to the point they are not more valuable than putting DPS on your bar...so people will go DPS = zerg
> Telondariel
Come on why should we wait for that, then we will have nothing to speculate about.
I know some people don't want to accept that this is GW2 style
That's extremely relative. As far as it was explained, if you want to be a healer you can just pick a class with 4 utility slots and fill them up with a direct heal, an aoe heal, a heal over time and an absorb shield. You'll have 4 viable DPS/CC/knockback/whatever skills on top of that but i don't see why one would suddenly brand this "GW2-style" for any other reason than trying to create drama.
The Devs have also stated that they are aware of the problems with GW2 combat and don't intend to repeat them. It has also been said that the similarities are only "surface".
Originally posted by matixzun I think a big problem is that a lot of people think GW2 Combat failed because of No-Trinity, instead of just bad combat design, you should realize that EQN actually can't have trinity because of the AI, and if the AI is so advanced that trinity doesn't work, I wouldn't be surprised if zerging a fight isn't actually possible, I think it means you will require an actual group strategy and tactics beyond "Mobs attack Tank, Healer heals Tank, DPS kills mobs".
I don't know if AI is the culprit, GW2 AI behaves quite well and does various things that people have said EQN might have.
The problem stems from the optimal method of playing. It's a careful balancing act without the trinity, each type of play style needs to be balanced. Right now, like I mentioned to someone else, zerker gear is just too good to pass up. A tank geared char will do less damage by a ton, same for heals/buffs/debuffs/support. It's that gap that skews it. If ANET nerfed zerker gear, the entire game dynamic would change.
Who's going to choose some little bit of extra toughness vs 75% crit and 3200 power? Either bring other set's up in damage or tune zerker down. If you shorten the gap, then you incentivize more varied roles.
i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
Thats the problem, the delivery. If you have something different why would you not lead with that then saying, nope, no trinity and no aggro management? They have to see from what they have told us it is sounding more and more like GW2.
I think there was simply not enough time over the weekend to tell the whole story. Added to that was the shock of the playerbase and the consequent focus on lack of trinity that seemed to put the EQN Dev team more on the defensive. As we saw just a couple of days ago, Dave is preparing a statement to address these concerns about EQN being like GW2. Let's wait until we hear more before speculation and assumption get too out of control.
I get that but I dont think they get the impact saying no trinity without a single drop of info on how their class/combat system will work. They should have said no comment tell they could have given us a full idea of how this wont end up like GW2 zerg.
I know some people don't want to accept that this is GW2 style
That's extremely relative. As far as it was explained, if you want to be a healer you can just pick a class with 4 utility slots and fill them up with a direct heal, an aoe heal, a heal over time and an absorb shield. You'll have 4 viable DPS/CC/knockback/whatever skills on top of that but i don't see why one would suddenly brand this "GW2-style" for any other reason than trying to create drama.
First.. as I recall since this is twitch combat and NOT tab targeting, (which they did say is NOT in the game).. How do I direct heal another player if I can not target them? AOE heals, sure.. but others, not.. Plus I seriously down you'll find a class in the game that will give you that options of having those healing skills and options.. I doubt slots will allow it , NOR the energy to cast them..
There is "tab targeting". You made the same mistake I just did by assuming that since everyone is saying "action-combat" that suddenly means you can't select a target...
The devs also mentioned that armor doesn't give attributes, they only have ability modifiers on them , attributes exist but are really hard to get and they're all useful for classes. Wizards will want strength. They are also limiting vertical progression.
Basically, just watch the class panel, alot of the design choices seem geared towards allowing just that.
i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
Thats the problem, the delivery. If you have something different why would you not lead with that then saying, nope, no trinity and no aggro management? They have to see from what they have told us it is sounding more and more like GW2.
I think there was simply not enough time over the weekend to tell the whole story. Added to that was the shock of the playerbase and the consequent focus on lack of trinity that seemed to put the EQN Dev team more on the defensive. As we saw just a couple of days ago, Dave is preparing a statement to address these concerns about EQN being like GW2. Let's wait until we hear more before speculation and assumption get too out of control.
I get that but I dont think they get the impact saying no trinity without a single drop of info on how their class/combat system will work. They should have said no comment tell they could have given us a full idea of how this wont end up like GW2 zerg.
I think they get it now in spades. There is going to be a lot of repair work to be done in the next bit.
No if this article is right its not taking the focus off the trinity, its not even a option short term in a team. I get adding more way to control the battle and have many ways to make a team work but the trinity should be an option short term in a team. If you try and use it long term in a fight a mobs AI should change tactics so you need to use other team members skills and brains. Stuns, knock backs, pets, etc. But this is not the case, you can not tank and heal at all. There is zero aggro management.
Don't just look at the article. What they are saying and have been saying throughout the panels is that the mob AI is more advanced than the scripted encounters we are used to. The traditional play style of triggering an ability and having the opponent respond in a very predictable pattern does not apply with this game.
That's what they are saying. Your concern is that it will be a zerg rush like GW2? I'm guessing that's the concern when you are referring to GW2. We have not seen how responsive the enemy AI is. That will be the lynchpin in all of this.
You can tank and you most certainly can heal BASED ON THE ABILITIES YOU USE. You just won't be able to tank every encounter that your group runs into. Some creatures will be too smart.
Every opponent will do a threat assessment during the fight. The smarter opponents will be better at that threat assessment. My understanding is that this is a more advanced version of aggro and gaining threat.
Here's an example I thought of while watching the Class Panel again.
Lets say your group runs into a giant spider. That spider has animal intelligence and your fighter is able to get its attention and the fight goes off pretty much like a tank and spank. The spider being too stupid to realize that the guy in back is a greater threat.
Now lets say your group runs into a Lich. The Lich CCs your fighter that's charging him, Silences your healer and goes after the mage that's about to debuff the heck out of him. Or maybe the Fighter throws out a heal instead of charging and the Lich silences him instead. Whatever the situation is, the Lich will be more reactive and challenging than the spider when it comes to strategy. So considering that they have smarter mobs, the traditional Holy Trinity won't work. Because that style of gameplay requires mobs to be dumb and follow a scripted pattern.
No if this article is right its not taking the focus off the trinity, its not even a option short term in a team. I get adding more way to control the battle and have many ways to make a team work but the trinity should be an option short term in a team. If you try and use it long term in a fight a mobs AI should change tactics so you need to use other team members skills and brains. Stuns, knock backs, pets, etc. But this is not the case, you can not tank and heal at all. There is zero aggro management.
Don't just look at the article. What they are saying and have been saying throughout the panels is that the mob AI is more advanced than the scripted encounters we are used to. The traditional play style of triggering an ability and having the opponent respond in a very predictable pattern does not apply with this game.
That's what they are saying. Your concern is that it will be a zerg rush like GW2? I'm guessing that's the concern when you are referring to GW2. We have not seen how responsive the enemy AI is. That will be the lynchpin in all of this.
You can tank and you most certainly can heal BASED ON THE ABILITIES YOU USE. You just won't be able to tank every encounter that your group runs into. Some creatures will be too smart.
Every opponent will do a threat assessment during the fight. The smarter opponents will be better at that threat assessment. My understanding is that this is a more advanced version of aggro and gaining threat.
Here's an example I thought of while watching the Class Panel again.
Lets say your group runs into a giant spider. That spider has animal intelligence and your fighter is able to get its attention and the fight goes off pretty much like a tank and spank. The spider being too stupid to realize that the guy in back is a greater threat.
Now lets say your group runs into a Lich. The Lich CCs your fighter that's charging him, Silences your healer and goes after the mage that's about to debuff the heck out of him. Or maybe the Fighter throws out a heal instead of charging and the Lich silences him instead. Whatever the situation is, the Lich will be more reactive and challenging than the spider when it comes to strategy. So considering that they have smarter mobs, the traditional Holy Trinity won't work. Because that style of gameplay requires mobs to be dumb and follow a scripted pattern.
From that article, "It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - " It wont even be an option short term.
No tanks no healers, you can play a warrior with shield and sword but he will be the same as in GW2, better of going full dps with full dps gear or your gimping yourself, your group, your raid.
So disapointed
This intervieuw showed me what i feared the most. Twitch combat - zerg style pve - no social backbone required.
I hoped i was wrong, but it seems EQN is another flavor of GW2 with many extra's, but a GW2 version in regards to PvE / PvP / classes.
hate me bash me hang me on the bridge if you want for saying this. i just hoped after playing GW2 Developers saw the flaws in GW2 and wont build on those flaws for a new mmo.
Hope i can still play this game, but i think it goes the same route, play for 1 hour and logout to play something else.
Maybe its time to realize that not everything you personally do not like is a flaw, the sooner you come to that fact in life the better you will feel about things and it wont get on other peoples nerves, also stop comparing it so much to GW2, they might be doing things their own way and maybe even better than GW2.
I dont hate you, nor hang you, nor bash you, its just some people need their reality checks and yes on this forum I had some of my own, not lately though happened few months ago.
On another note people need to understand that a massive game, trinity, or no trinity will have zergs but you just have to be in touch with reality and true to yourself to understand that. Makes gaming in life much more easier if you understand that least when I came to the fact years ago zergs I no longer worry about. The use of the word Zerg these days is just a weak excuse to something you dont understand or like personally that must be a certain way only for the zergfest to be using what you prefer or understand. Yes its true certain things can make zergs less reliable, but fact is trinity or no trinity is not the key to that solution same with combat mechanics being whack a mole or actual control in what you can do. Argue all you want stay jaded in that belief it sad to know people cant let upp their pride for things but on this site its expected.
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Now lets say your group runs into a Lich. The Lich CCs your fighter that's charging him, Silences your healer and goes after the mage that's about to debuff the heck out of him. Or maybe the Fighter throws out a heal instead of charging and the Lich silences him instead. Whatever the situation is, the Lich will be more reactive and challenging than the spider when it comes to strategy. So considering that they have smarter mobs, the traditional Holy Trinity won't work. Because that style of gameplay requires mobs to be dumb and follow a scripted pattern.
NO it does not.
I suspect many of you have not played a wide range of MMOs
for the best example of how to handle this example... play Warhammer online
Where you will see how to make tanking classes, support classes healing classes and DPS classes that all have to work as a cohesive team to fight the SMARTEST AI EVER INVENTED... other players.
From that article, "It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - " It wont even be an option short term.
They are talking about roles. Not the action itself. There will be defensive minded classes.
You just won't be able to watch TV while spamming a three or four macros, staring at your UI when to hit each macro next. You won't be able to ignore what the mob is doing at the moment because you watched the Youtube video for the predictable pattern and know its phases, moves and counters for it before the battle even begins.
From that article, "It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - " It wont even be an option short term.
They are talking about roles. Not the action itself. There will be defensive minded classes.
You just won't be able to watch TV while spamming a three or four macros, staring at your UI when to hit each macro next. You won't be able to ignore what the mob is doing at the moment because you watched the Youtube video for the predictable pattern and know its phases, moves and counters for it before the battle even begins.
I like how people downplay hardcore raids so much that its obvious they know nothing about them.
If there is no tank role, then making your character overly defensive is just dumb.
Originally posted by matixzun I think a big problem is that a lot of people think GW2 Combat failed because of No-Trinity, instead of just bad combat design, you should realize that EQN actually can't have trinity because of the AI, and if the AI is so advanced that trinity doesn't work, I wouldn't be surprised if zerging a fight isn't actually possible, I think it means you will require an actual group strategy and tactics beyond "Mobs attack Tank, Healer heals Tank, DPS kills mobs".
GW2 didnt fail because of lack of trinity, It failed because they removed the need for roles all together, just like EQN is doing based on that interview.
I should realise EQN can't have trinity because of the ai? really? have you seen the AI in action? you are making awfully big assumptions.
Even so, I don't have a issue with the role of tank being redefined, however removing the need for roles altogether such as healer, while neglecting old EQ roles such as crowd controller, buffer or puller is incredibly foolish.
Without roles zerg fights is all it will be, the combat system itself is not advanced enough to get rid of roles, if the combat was something along the lines of M&B's combat it might be a diffrent story, actually even then roles should get replaced with formations and other roles.
When everyone can go dps and beat the content then it does indeed become a zerg not only that but it becomes a minmax race to have the most possible dps while still surviving, just like gw2, and anyone who actually tries to fill a role will get ridiculed just like gw2.
I suspect many of you have not played a wide range of MMOs
for the best example of how to handle this example... play Warhammer online
Where you will see how to make tanking classes, support classes healing classes and DPS classes that all have to work as a cohesive team to fight the SMARTEST AI EVER INVENTED... other players.
I played Warhammer Online at launch for almost four months. The PVP was awful and unbalanced.
But to further blow apart your 'argument.' PVP works when both opponents have the same abilities or groups have the same abilities to use against each other. Which is the case with Warhammer Online and virtually every other MMO.
Fighting against mobs doesn't have the same luxury. Monsters will have different abilities than players and therefore will require more forethought on how to handle game mechanics.
I suspect you too haven't really played a wide range of games. I mean Warhammer Online? really? DaoC with its rock/paper/scissor counters would be a far better example, than that trash of a game.
Comments
Not wanting to go totally against you Nanfoodle as I agree with your concerns BUT...
You dont need "aggro management" to need the trinity (or any variation of specialist classing)
games like Warhammer came up with a way to TANK without the need for a meaningless taunt (their taunt had actual effects)
I agree a bit on the no trinity debate. I think no trinity can work, but there isn't a huge benefit of making a game without a trinity because the trinity does work well. Don't try to fix what isn't broken. It takes a lot more effort to make a no trinity system work than a going with the tired and true holy trinity system.
GW2 has no trinity per say (you can still build tank, healer, or DPS in the game, a Thief coupled with a Ranger or Elementalist can serve as a group healer by comboing off water fields for example and my Ranger basically played the tank role in groups) replaced with what they claimed was a new kind of trinity in Control/Support/DPS. Well, as many here will tell you it didn't work well, and it was mostly the fault of bad PvE and to an extent bad class design. To make a no Trinity system work the AI is going to have to work a lot harder and be more compelling and honestly I don't believe we are there yet despite what SoE devs may be saying. Despite tanking on Ranger working well enough it really wasn't necessary and I always felt like I was gimping my group by playing that way even though we did succeed at reaching top levels on Fractals if I played any other class and just went pure DPS we would have done it much faster.
My biggest worry is that they said there will be no need for healers or tanks. If anyone has played GW2 there really isn't any reason to bring anything other than Mesmers and Warriors to explorable mode dungeons and only at high level Fractals do other professions really become useful due to reflect shields (so it just shifts to Mesmer/Elementalist/Guardian). Just because you "remove" the trinity doesn't mean you should remove skills that let you effectively tank and heal others. GW2 was missing heavy group dynamics and generally just devolved into stack DPS and zerg the boss as a result. Support was minimal and something any class with a Warhorn could do without wasting much time at all. Control was non-existant with Defiance stacks and nothing that required using it ever (I mean they touted Control as being a big part of GW2 then they designed no encounters that require using it at all?). Some people really enjoy having roles in group and will only play a CC, DPS, Healer, or Tank. Why can't we get rid of the Trinity by having every class have the ability to heal or tank to a lesser degree than dedicated roles so it becomes more about using the abilities that let you do so at the appropriate time and effectively swapping roles in combat optimally?
Ah, my bad then, when everyone was saying everyone is DPS in GW2 I litterally thought it was because you couldn't spec for healing at all. Thanks for the explanation.
Still sounds as though the game suffered alot more from a massive balancing issue there. I want healing to be equally viable and for there to be strategy in making a good group setup in EQN.
Even though I enjoy GW2, yes there is a balance issue between gear types (berserker gear is far too potent and is the reason behind people's preference for it). I too, would like to see a more measured approach that encourages various roles.
You can
and what you have done is remove classes defenitions altogether
Everyone is now the same.
as I said before... i can heal and dps and tank and CC..... a bit
but I do it with a fire animation....o... I can do all that but i do it with a bow....
O really ?
I do all that but with a big stick animation.
On top of the bland we are all the same smushiness of that
There is the lack of replayablity
WHY BOTHER ever playing a 2nd toon if they are all the same.
If EQN does not blow peoples socks off with its OTHER features it will be a lower middle runner within its first year, because this approach to strategy and combat is very bad.
P.S. people who think a smarter AI is going to make this work are dreaming.
A better AI (at its very best) will make it like PvP with no classes, just DPS.. that heal a bit and dodge a bit and CC a bit
2nd P.S. I want this game to be good, unlike many posters I LOVE the graphical style, I love their world and sandbox ideas and allot of the other great stuff in this interview.
i think we're still in the infancy of the action combat MMO. Maybe people are jumping to compare to GW2 because there arent many games to compare to EQN (tera?). I don't think we've seen what's possible yet with action RPG mechanics. think of how there are tab-targeting MMO whose game play are substantially different than one another. for example the Warden in LOTRO is a pretty unique class that i think really stands out in the realm of tab targeting games as a way to play that constantly requires a good player to think.
the same innovations will begin to crop up in action mmo, probably starting with EQN. in other words, lets see what they are going to do before blasting it. i'm not saying i'm 100% certain the game is going to be a great success just saying lets watch it instead of writing it off even before the closed beta.
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Thats the problem, the delivery. If you have something different why would you not lead with that then saying, nope, no trinity and no aggro management? They have to see from what they have told us it is sounding more and more like GW2.
2 posts above ^
so very wrong.
1. AI does not break the trinity, if you think it will you are thinking of a WoW style trinity (taunt mob, DPS mob, heal tank)
allot of games have come up with much better ways of tanking than that old WoW style taunt (CC blocking etc)
2. MANY games have had no tab targeting and some did it a while back (AoC for one) it works fine and does not require the removal of class distinction.
the issue is NOT about changing the trinity.
Its about the stated goal that NO CLASS WILL BE NEEDED.
Now the only way that can be true is if ANY class combination can be effective.
At which point you may as well all load up the classes that will finish the content fastest.
True you may choose to play the hard way, play builds that CC and Tank and heal but you are now numbered with the people hwo play on RP servers...you are doing it DESPITE the game
First.. as I recall since this is twitch combat and NOT tab targeting, (which they did say is NOT in the game).. How do I direct heal another player if I can not target them? AOE heals, sure.. but others, not.. Plus I seriously down you'll find a class in the game that will give you that options of having those healing skills and options.. I doubt slots will allow it , NOR the energy to cast them..
I think there was simply not enough time over the weekend to tell the whole story. Added to that was the shock of the playerbase and the consequent focus on lack of trinity that seemed to put the EQN Dev team more on the defensive. As we saw just a couple of days ago, Dave is preparing a statement to address these concerns about EQN being like GW2. Let's wait until we hear more before speculation and assumption get too out of control.
GO play TERA for a bit (its F2P)
You will see how to do action based combat with no tab targeting but still have healers (very important healers)
Not to mention tanks that are all about dodging and avoidance (warrior) and blocking and CC (lancer)
They will nurf healing and defensive skills to the point they are not more valuable than putting DPS on your bar...so people will go DPS = zerg
> Telondariel
Come on
why should we wait for that, then we will have nothing to speculate about.
The Devs have also stated that they are aware of the problems with GW2 combat and don't intend to repeat them. It has also been said that the similarities are only "surface".
I guess we will see if they are lying.
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I don't know if AI is the culprit, GW2 AI behaves quite well and does various things that people have said EQN might have.
The problem stems from the optimal method of playing. It's a careful balancing act without the trinity, each type of play style needs to be balanced. Right now, like I mentioned to someone else, zerker gear is just too good to pass up. A tank geared char will do less damage by a ton, same for heals/buffs/debuffs/support. It's that gap that skews it. If ANET nerfed zerker gear, the entire game dynamic would change.
Who's going to choose some little bit of extra toughness vs 75% crit and 3200 power? Either bring other set's up in damage or tune zerker down. If you shorten the gap, then you incentivize more varied roles.
I get that but I dont think they get the impact saying no trinity without a single drop of info on how their class/combat system will work. They should have said no comment tell they could have given us a full idea of how this wont end up like GW2 zerg.
There is "tab targeting". You made the same mistake I just did by assuming that since everyone is saying "action-combat" that suddenly means you can't select a target...
The devs also mentioned that armor doesn't give attributes, they only have ability modifiers on them , attributes exist but are really hard to get and they're all useful for classes. Wizards will want strength. They are also limiting vertical progression.
Basically, just watch the class panel, alot of the design choices seem geared towards allowing just that.
I think they get it now in spades. There is going to be a lot of repair work to be done in the next bit.
Don't just look at the article. What they are saying and have been saying throughout the panels is that the mob AI is more advanced than the scripted encounters we are used to. The traditional play style of triggering an ability and having the opponent respond in a very predictable pattern does not apply with this game.
That's what they are saying. Your concern is that it will be a zerg rush like GW2? I'm guessing that's the concern when you are referring to GW2. We have not seen how responsive the enemy AI is. That will be the lynchpin in all of this.
You can tank and you most certainly can heal BASED ON THE ABILITIES YOU USE. You just won't be able to tank every encounter that your group runs into. Some creatures will be too smart.
Every opponent will do a threat assessment during the fight. The smarter opponents will be better at that threat assessment. My understanding is that this is a more advanced version of aggro and gaining threat.
Here's an example I thought of while watching the Class Panel again.
Lets say your group runs into a giant spider. That spider has animal intelligence and your fighter is able to get its attention and the fight goes off pretty much like a tank and spank. The spider being too stupid to realize that the guy in back is a greater threat.
Now lets say your group runs into a Lich. The Lich CCs your fighter that's charging him, Silences your healer and goes after the mage that's about to debuff the heck out of him. Or maybe the Fighter throws out a heal instead of charging and the Lich silences him instead. Whatever the situation is, the Lich will be more reactive and challenging than the spider when it comes to strategy. So considering that they have smarter mobs, the traditional Holy Trinity won't work. Because that style of gameplay requires mobs to be dumb and follow a scripted pattern.
From that article, "It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - " It wont even be an option short term.
Maybe its time to realize that not everything you personally do not like is a flaw, the sooner you come to that fact in life the better you will feel about things and it wont get on other peoples nerves, also stop comparing it so much to GW2, they might be doing things their own way and maybe even better than GW2.
I dont hate you, nor hang you, nor bash you, its just some people need their reality checks and yes on this forum I had some of my own, not lately though happened few months ago.
On another note people need to understand that a massive game, trinity, or no trinity will have zergs but you just have to be in touch with reality and true to yourself to understand that. Makes gaming in life much more easier if you understand that least when I came to the fact years ago zergs I no longer worry about. The use of the word Zerg these days is just a weak excuse to something you dont understand or like personally that must be a certain way only for the zergfest to be using what you prefer or understand. Yes its true certain things can make zergs less reliable, but fact is trinity or no trinity is not the key to that solution same with combat mechanics being whack a mole or actual control in what you can do. Argue all you want stay jaded in that belief it sad to know people cant let upp their pride for things but on this site its expected.
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NO it does not.
I suspect many of you have not played a wide range of MMOs
for the best example of how to handle this example... play Warhammer online
Where you will see how to make tanking classes, support classes healing classes and DPS classes that all have to work as a cohesive team to fight the SMARTEST AI EVER INVENTED... other players.
They are talking about roles. Not the action itself. There will be defensive minded classes.
You just won't be able to watch TV while spamming a three or four macros, staring at your UI when to hit each macro next. You won't be able to ignore what the mob is doing at the moment because you watched the Youtube video for the predictable pattern and know its phases, moves and counters for it before the battle even begins.
I like how people downplay hardcore raids so much that its obvious they know nothing about them.
If there is no tank role, then making your character overly defensive is just dumb.
GW2 didnt fail because of lack of trinity, It failed because they removed the need for roles all together, just like EQN is doing based on that interview.
I should realise EQN can't have trinity because of the ai? really? have you seen the AI in action? you are making awfully big assumptions.
Even so, I don't have a issue with the role of tank being redefined, however removing the need for roles altogether such as healer, while neglecting old EQ roles such as crowd controller, buffer or puller is incredibly foolish.
Without roles zerg fights is all it will be, the combat system itself is not advanced enough to get rid of roles, if the combat was something along the lines of M&B's combat it might be a diffrent story, actually even then roles should get replaced with formations and other roles.
When everyone can go dps and beat the content then it does indeed become a zerg not only that but it becomes a minmax race to have the most possible dps while still surviving, just like gw2, and anyone who actually tries to fill a role will get ridiculed just like gw2.
I played Warhammer Online at launch for almost four months. The PVP was awful and unbalanced.
But to further blow apart your 'argument.' PVP works when both opponents have the same abilities or groups have the same abilities to use against each other. Which is the case with Warhammer Online and virtually every other MMO.
Fighting against mobs doesn't have the same luxury. Monsters will have different abilities than players and therefore will require more forethought on how to handle game mechanics.
I suspect you too haven't really played a wide range of games. I mean Warhammer Online? really? DaoC with its rock/paper/scissor counters would be a far better example, than that trash of a game.