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Are EQN gonna be sandbox or not?, I'm confused
Torgrim
Member CommonPosts: 2,088
What we all thought was that EQN was the only game that was releated to SOE reveal and they sead it would be the greatest sandbox ever made.
I think It's more complex than that, now with the landmark project which is a sandbox minecraft game a stand alone game or a sidegame if you could call it that to EQN.
Was the landmark project the sandbox part and EQN the sandpark or freepark part?
I'm not sure really, I'm confused.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Comments
We don't know for sure until more information is released about EQN.
People can play in Landmark for free but if the Devs are in search of a castle and you happen to have one, and the community as a whole likes it, it can make it's way into EQN; and you can gain royalties off that.
EQN itself is also a "sandbox" game in that there are no traditional "quest parks". NPCs will not have "!" or "?" above their heads and one dosen't -have- to talk to NPCs to receive a quest. One -can- talk to them and find out "what's up" in the area but just by entering the area people will be informed of what is happening in that area (i.e. if a rally call is going on).
A traditional Themepark game a player runs up to a quest hub of NPCs, grabs all the quests, completes them, then moves onto the next hub. EQN will not be like that.
This has to be the most foolish excuse to claim EQN as a sandbox mmo, seriously lol.
Oh and i will be playing the game but seriously, do some research on sandbox mmo's.
In case you didn't notice, gear grinds rot the mind due to long hours required. So, at least in mmorpg.com be more considerate to a possible victim of long hours of exhaustion and possibly permanent damage because of it. And we really never know, if someone just binged on a gear grind .
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
That is only the very first step in calling a game a sandbox, and with all you mentioned, it still does not qualify as one. All you are really talking about is how quests are handled. 1 issue in a sea of a million things that need to happen for a game to satisfy this hunger for a real sandbox mmo. After this long, those measly points are simply not even close to enough and only serve to perpetuate the incorrect use of the word.
Watch the following vid and you will know it. It is a sandbox. Especially the part about harvesting and crafting.
Creating Worlds Panel 2/2
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I certainly dont see anything released to believe its a themepark.
For instance, the emergant AI where the orcs inhabit the world based on their likes and dislikes...this is actually more of a dynamic world thing than a sandbox thing, but its a clear departure from themepark play (the type of themepark play thats actually in most sandboxes in the first place)
It is a sandbox game in the sense that the AI will react to player actions, and that's probably it.
how is that a sandbox? its a great concept and a welcome innovation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with whether a game is a sand box or not.
We seem to have several PHD experts on the subject here on these boards. I welcome them to create a bullet list of every game feature that they feel falls under "themepark", then another listing the mechanics of a "sandbox" game.
One of the defining differences is that indeed "Themepark" games are centered around questing hubs. Ohh you're level 15, you quest out of this hub, now you're 18, quest out of this hub. "Sandbox" on the other hand dose not follow such a liner, hand-holding, take on gameplay. A game can have elements of both, of course... in addition to dozens of other elements.
It boils down to, if Sony wants to call it a Sandbox game, and all evidence points that way, then it is indeed one. There has been extremely little evidence showing that it is a Themepark game.
Though some games have sandbox elements, at their core they are still fundumentally a themepark game. Very few mmos are true sandbox games, count them on only a few fingers; out of the hundreds of standard park games.
Some people on these boards just need to calm down a bit. A lot of information is unknown and to debate unknown information is just silly.
Well with landmark it is at least a sandbox... the game part.. who knows.
I think it will be something in between. Not a full-blown do what ever you like without any guidance or semblance of story sandbox.. But i think it will be less linear then say WoW. Maybe something closer to SWG.
This have been a good conversation
Nothing about EQN reminds of SWG:pre NGE sadly. if anything it reminds of me of SWG:NGE.
No bullet List is required.
What it boils down to is gameplay, overall goal, and Scope.
A Themepark game is a virtual world where players engage alone or together in various AI challenges put in place for them by the design of the game. It can be associated to a story or Lore and there is a progression of their character. The overall goal is the evolution the character (and the player) go through while playing the game during that journey. While the player can set individual goals on how to go through the journey the game defines what the overall goal is. the Scope of the game is limited.
A sandbox game has a similar journey but it happens differently. It is also a virtual world but open for the players to discover and claim. The challenges it contains (AI, NPC's Environment) are there to mainly teach the player its mechanics and act on a supportive role to the goal the player sets for themselves. And since the game does not define an overall goal for the player, it merely provides the tools for the players to set and accomplish any goals they may set for themselves, ex, building a tavern and spend 2 years running it logging in the game simply to manage that tavern and server the customers (other players of it), to creating a band of marauding pillagers, to establishing a trading village that produces wine to other player cities, to building a castle and training recruiting harboring knights and combat oriented players that protect the area from marauding forces, maybe for some kind of terms that players negotiate together, resources or tithes or taxes etc. The scope of the game is unlimited.
I do not think EQN is sandbox based on current Information...even if they thrown that term around many times up to now. I consider it as playing around with words and meanings. Until something changes, maybe some more Grails are presented and the Games Scope becomes more clear to confirm if EQN is actually a game with a Sandbox Scope or a New Type of Themepark.
But by the way the Devs express themselves already, "We do not want you this we do not want you that"...I doubt it is a Sandbox. The Idea of a Sandbox game is "Do what you want".
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Fantastic replies both of you. I'd quote both but it would take up a lot of room. I have to say that I agree with what you're saying in definitions. See, no reason to attack or belittle.
For me, personally, if there were a scale of 1 to 20. 1 being 100% sandbox (which no game is) and 20 being 100% themepark. I'd tip the needle of the current information to the sandbox side of the scale. Perhaps not a 1, 2, or 3, but a 7, 8, or 9 maybe. Compiling all the information we currently have knowledge of, in my opinion, the game can indeed be called a sandbox game. Dose one single element tip the scale? No, of course not. But for me at least, there is a large enough combination of elements to tip the scales.
I brought up Quest Hubs becasue this alone swings the needle quite a bit (for me personaly). All knowledge we current have, points to there being no quest hubs; at least not in the traditional sense we have seen in countless games. From what I am hearing we could visit an area, not becasue our level deems it, demands it, it but becasue we are curious; perhaps do a quest if one presents itself. If we revisit that area at a later date, it maynot be the same at all, or may, indeed, be permently different. We can have impact on an area of a game. Not because of our level but becaue we "felt like it". That to me, at least, screams sandbox and not themepark.
Over time things will unfold more and more. Cautiously and hopefully, for the best. I think we can all agree on, the last thing the world needs in another game with the needle solidly in the themepark side of things.
Cragfire, I beg to differ. The scale is on the Themepark side.
There is no Confirmed open World PvP even, it sounds like a PVE experience.
One of the elements that make a Sandbox is the opportunity of players to choose to be Good or Evil, towards other players.
This is how the dynamic gets established. If you want to be the Knight in the Shinning Armor that protects the Weak and the Innocent (the Hero), well there has to be Evil guys to protect them from.
This dynamic does not exist in the game. The Evil role is played by the NPC's, very typical of a Themepark game.
The Thieves the marauders, the murderers the scoundrels role is played by the NPC's.
I just watched the Building worlds Panel. about Landmark, it really seems like they have taken several elements and made two games with it.
The harvesting and Crafting and Designing and Building Part is in Landmark, there people will look for ressources spent time gathering them and building their Houses.
And in EQN it will be a PVE adventure playing with the emergent AI, exploring the world for the goal of Progressing the character through the Tiers and unlocking more classes.
As a bonus we will be able (not entirely clear or confirmed yet), to port some of the designs from landmark in to EQN. It is not confirmed however if players will be able to own Houses in EQN. The people asking questions in the Panels were as confused as we are. They spoke of Houses refering to the world of EQN but the Devs answered questions refering to the world of Landmark.
All because those aspects have been separated in to two games.
Well, a Sandbox game would incorporate ALL these in to one world. And just the fact that there is Landmark and EQN just the fact that the Adventure is not directly connected to the Building Part Coupled with the fact that there seems to be no Open world PvP...makes this a game something else than a Sandbox.
It is really simple.
You ladder of 1 to 20 would better apply with a game such as ArchAge, it has some Themepark elements it has levels and PVE gameplay in the beginning but it is all about players being able to establish their own nations and Holding on to them, the harvesting, Crafting Building of Houses and castles, resource Transportation as well as the Combat (PVE and PvP) all happen in the same virtual world. And yes people can Attack one another and steal some things from one another or work to prevent one another from accomplishing goals they set for themselves. Now that is a Sandbox MMO.
EQN thus far is not.
And while I am sure it will have PvP it looks like it will be in another Zone and or Battlegrounds at this point. Unless they come up and say that they have Landmass where people can colonize and claim for their own, and will have to protect to keep from other players wanting to destroy or take over since in those areas it is all FFA PvP.
Not unlike ArchAge or even EVE online.
Until then you may call it a Duck, but it does not walk like one nor quacks like one at this time.
In the end I do not mind personally what it turns out to be, I was expecting it to be a Themepark, then realized it is a next generation themepark, PVE based gameplay...like its predecessors.
The creators of Everquest are not credited with Sandbox games anyways...all these 14 years since 1999 they made Themepark games, so I was not expecting a miracle, their philosophy is just different.
But do not play with words to try to intice people in to your game by giving them false hopes, and as a marketing ploy.
All i wish is for them to be at the point to release enough information as to be in a position to confirm what type of game they are making really, so I can make my choice of which game I will be playing for the next 5 years.
If it is a next generation themepark, all the fun to you. but personally am not interested it is not what I am looking as a game to have fun.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Exactly...Until we see some actual gameplay footage i'm not buying any of this stuff....Anyone that listens to Smedley and thinks he actually knows anything is just fooling themselves........Right now this game is just theory and smoke and mirrors......We don't know if what they are saying is true, if it will even work at all, what format is the game being made for (probably PS4), etc.......Now the hype is going to be over the top on this and you know there is no way SOE can deliver....
I definetly understand and respect your stance and opinion. Little to nothing was said about PvP or Crafting in any of the panels, which will certainty move the needle one way or another once we learn more. After watching all the panels myself it became pretty clear we are, minimally, a year away from the main title launch. A lot of time for anything to change, from mechanics, elements, reasoning, perception, understanding and opinions. People were tossed a lot of information over the past few days and are trying to digest it, though it's difficult since large, and critical, pieces of information are missing like a void in space. Perhaps it will be as bad as people are speculating, who knows, it's anyones guess at this point. God knows the number of mmos that launched after 2005, the promises made, and the flops that have happened. heh.
You have shown nothing but the upmost respect for my opinion so I will return the favor. I hope you find the game you're looking for one day. Myself, I'll stick around till least Landmark launches before making a final choice.
The building tools found in Landmark will be in EQN as well. Player housing and guild cities have both been confirmed to be in EQN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZz6P_IloKXgVhksCpsbC6igAIshXOlqu&v=az45_Uvl4Yo&feature=player_detailpage&t=89
https://twitter.com/Rosierap/status/363676918907813888
EQNext is not a sandbox as far as we are told.
Rallying calls are public quests the only difference being that they just take longer to complete.
Any and all changes to the world are temporary as far as we know.
You can dig a tunnel but the terrain will default to its original state after a while.
The information we will get in the future might qaulify it as a sandbox, but I highly doubt it.
Did you seriously just not read my post that is right above yours?
Playerhousing or guild cities does not make a game sandbox.
What does, specifically? I don't want examples of sandbox games, I am asking you what (in your opinion) elements make a game a sandbox game as opposed to a themepark. Because everyone's idea of what "sandbox" and "themepark" mean seems to be different. Suraknar, for example, implies above that if there is no open world PvP that it cannot be a sandbox. I say that's nonsense (Minecraft.)
For me, the difference lies in whether the minute-to-minute gameplay is linear. If I'm just going through scripted content, even if there are branches and side quests and timewasting to be done, that's themepark. When I go off the rails and do stuff the devs didn't intend, or where there is emergent content, that's sandbox. Many games are mixtures of both, and almost all MMORPGs have some level of sandbox to them... but that's been decreasing in recent years even in extant games. EQNext, it seems to me, is trying to reverse that trend, but of course we don't know how successful it will be at that, and we lack a lot of information in general.
However, we do know that there will be some scripted content - quests, dungeons, etc - in EQNext. So if that flatly disqualifies it as a sandbox in your book, then okay. But at the same time Storybricks AI, assuming it works, is going to add a huge emergent sandbox element. The Permanent Change thing (again if it works) will have a similar effect.
So I see it as an unanswerable question right now, but for the moment I am wiling to take SOE at their word and assume EQN will be sort of sandboxy. The info we have at the moment seems to me to be compatible with that.
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Apart form the fact that rallying calls WILL change the world permanently.... And since this is the first game that let us destroy the world, that in it self is a major step forward for sandbox games.
In fact it sounds like the tasks you find will also change the world in some way since the AI of monsters are not tetherd like it usually is. Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.
You come to a farm, the farmers ask you to help him with the orcs trying to raze his farm. 1:help the farmer 2: help the orcs
if 1 either the orcs are driven off or they come back in bigger numbers. if 2 they take over the farm and a new "quest" is created in the nearby town to drive them out of the farm before they get a foothold in the area... That is about as dynamic and realistic as it can get in my mind. If people let the orcs mill about they will fortify the farm and given enough time they will start trying to attack the town. That is how the quest system was described. And IF (we only have a lot if IF to work with right now) they can pull that off it will fit right in with the whole concept of "sandbox" as you can in essence create what type of content that can be found in a area.
This have been a good conversation