If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.
I don't see the industry adopting your concept. Try again.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.
I don't see the industry adopting your concept. Try again.
It makes about as much sense as an MMO with no PVE content... wait, never mind.
The minute you have classes with set abilities you've moved toward the themepark end of the spectrum. A full sandbox is a canvas upon which the player entirely creates content. A full themepark is a completed piece of art you are guided across. Most games fall between those points. Ideally, in a game trying to be more sandbox than not, you'd have skills that you blend into whatever style of gameplay you favor. So a person could be a crafter and combatant (with limited variety between) or a full crafter (with wide array of crafting options but no combat skill) or full combatant (with more diverse combat options but no crafting).
However those systems tend to be complicated and hold a larger learning curve when trying to really define what you want to be. Which is why many games (like SWG) choose to make set classes to simplify the process. This move, naturally, takes part of the canvas away from the player to create on, but leaves very much still open for them to create. A simple way to view it is that a full sandbox is nothing but tools. SWG was like a canvas with some trees painted on the border. You still decided what was in the middle of those trees, but could not change the setting so much that no trees existed. This model is important if setting and world matters, as it did for SWG. A theme had to be maintained, else it couldn't be called Star Wars. EQN will be the same way, because so much of the setting has already been established.
That said, if they are clever, there are ways to handle both issues without tearing away too much canvas control from the player. A few improvements over systems already proven could go a long way. I would prefer classless builds, but I understand why that is unlikely and won't hate them for it. In fact, given the world and setting, I can see how pure crafters would not exist. Its not that kind of world, and has never been established as such. But I'd like to see their core concepts design doc over it, for sure.
Originally posted by drh3010 You don't want to be a Hairdresser, but you want the choice. Got it.
Sorta. I want to gank a hairdresser in game, take their bag full of cosmetics and sell it back to them at a ridiculous price. Any real sandbox would have this option.
Originally posted by drh3010 You don't want to be a Hairdresser, but you want the choice. Got it.
Sorta. I want to gank a hairdresser in game, take their bag full of cosmetics and sell it back to them at a ridiculous price. Any real sandbox would have this option.
This has nothing to do with being a sandbox.
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A game doesn't have to mimic SWG to be a sandbox, you know. I hate the idea of non-combat classes because it means I can't be a combat character and craft/do other stuff at the same time.
Actually, yea it does. If the game doesn't let you start as a vocation then it's token. It's the same in EVE Online. You can make and skill a character that never leaves a station. They are as integral as any PvP pilot even if the PvP pilot lives in denial of that.
Originally posted by keenber If there is crafting classes that all they can do is crafting then that makes it a non sandbox game due to removing the option to choose what you char can do.
They have alluded to the possbility of a character changing classes.
So it could allow you to do what you want to do in a sense by changing from blacksmith to wizard.
I don't know how that would be better than a classless system though.
I would really like it actually if you had traditional classes, but they were independent of each other and all had to be leveled up individually.
Like if you hit max level as a warrior, then want to be a wizard, you start as a lev 1 wizard and have your max level warrior "banked". You aren't a wizard that gets to use some warrior skills or anything like that, but it's there for you to go back to. If you get to level 5 as a wizard, you're just an ordinary level 5 wizard even though you're a level 50 warrior too. You don't get to use any of the warrior stuff while in wizard mode. But you can go talk to an npc or something and switch to whatever you've been already.
One thing I never liked about making alts is the loss of all the fluff on your main character. Your main has the fancy titles, the fancy appearance gear, some cool mount or whatever...but you don't have access to that because you're playing a different class now. It has deterred people (definitely has deterred me) from doing more in a game.
Just my opinion but I don't like any character can do anything approach. It makes sense if you want a game just for combat/quests but it takes away the role from role-playing. If you start as a warrior, his attributes will most likely by higher in physical area, with limited intelligence. Then tomorrow he is a wizard? You get to respec his attributes? So now he is a different character, so why not just make a new one?
If you want more freedom of character building then a classless system would be better. maybe sacrifice some str/con/dex for higher int and make a hybrid to be melee/magic. But those hybrids usually end up not being as good at either as needed, so outside of PnP RP, don't work well in vid games. I tried all types of multi-classes in DDO and not many worked well at higher levs-had to sacrifice too much from either class.
Anyway, as for sandbox i just want as many options as thy can give us without it taking away from some other aspect of game.
Because they have 8 combat classes, 9 combat jobs, 8 crafting classes, and 3 gathering classes?
I see this is a difficult concept for some to comprehend. Let me make it simple so even you can understand.
A sandbox has to have crafting, correct? My point is that if a game is going to have crafting, but it doesn't have fully fleshed out crafting classes in the same way it has for combat classes, then it's very likely it's going to be a weak sandbox experience. I'm not saying EQN won't be a sandbox without non-combat classes. I'm saying it will probably be a lame sandbox.
Why are people so dense on these forums?
Why are people so insulting? Hmmm
Because life is sandbox =-)
Yep, some people like to build sandcastles and others like to kick them down.
If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.
I don't see the industry adopting your concept. Try again.
It makes about as much sense as an MMO with no PVE content... wait, never mind.
The guy is coming in here swinging his epeen trying to tell everyone what the real definition of sandbox is. All I was doing was putting him back in his place. You don't need to kiss his ...
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.
The fact that they consider the original EQ a sandbox guarantees EQnext will not be a sandbox. If SOE did manage to create a sandbox game, then their microtransaction model would kill it anyways. I don't think I have seen so much forum PR, since the release of GW2, and we all know how great that game turned out.
Originally posted by drh3010 You don't want to be a Hairdresser, but you want the choice. Got it.
Sorta. I want to gank a hairdresser in game, take their bag full of cosmetics and sell it back to them at a ridiculous price. Any real sandbox would have this option.
How will you get past their +10 hairdryer and curling iron of fabulousness.
Originally posted by drh3010 You don't want to be a Hairdresser, but you want the choice. Got it.
Sorta. I want to gank a hairdresser in game, take their bag full of cosmetics and sell it back to them at a ridiculous price. Any real sandbox would have this option.
The problem is it is best used to describe features rather than games.
Any feature design that allows the player greater freedom to alter their play experience and that of other people is a sandbox feature.
However there are many different kinds of features with this quality, and some games will have one subset while another will have a different subset.
A game is best referred to as a sandbox if it chooses the sandbox option for most of it's features, as compared with industry standards. But the boundaries are necessarily vague.
All sandbox means is player driven content. Sandbox features are simply player generated content. A sandbox game is a game that is actually altered by player actions.
That really is the meat of it.
I hate to quote myself, but.....
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My guess is that there will be a lot of areas to progress outside of combat classes, I believe I've seen Dave say this specifically. Vanguard actually has a fully fleshed out crafting classes and EQ2 has questing and content similar to combat class options. I'm hoping for a lot of various progessions in EQN and would indeed see them as a "sandbox" feature, especially if I could switch betwwen them.
I would like to add that the OP was pretty vague and as it started a thread, opening up a subject for discussion, the OP who started it should not be attacking those offering to give thier input.
Because they have 8 combat classes, 9 combat jobs, 8 crafting classes, and 3 gathering classes?
No sir, those are "sub-classes. Meaning a Combat class can have a crafting sub-class. Sort of like a specialization that isn't combat oriented.
It is no different than a Troll Warrior being a Blacksmith in DAOC. That's not what the OP is talking about.
What the OP was referring to was an SWG reference to ACTUAL primary classes that are not combat oriented such as Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Tailor, Biologist (forgot name, but the dudes who augmented pet DNA), etc etc.
However, I believe the OP is being too hardcore about the term sandbox on his own personal terms. It can be a Sandbox without non-combat professions.
My guess is that there will be a lot of areas to progress outside of combat classes, I believe I've seen Dave say this specifically. Vanguard actually has a fully fleshed out crafting classes and EQ2 has questing and content similar to combat class options. I'm hoping for a lot of various progessions in EQN and would indeed see them as a "sandbox" feature, especially if I could switch betwwen them.
I would like to add that the OP was pretty vague and as it started a thread, opening up a subject for discussion, the OP who started it should not be attacking those offering to give thier input.
See my reply to BadSpock, those are not true definitions of the word "class" as per OP's...OP . We're not talking about sub-professions here that anyone can have. OP was talking about TRUE primary classes that are non-combat.
Because they have 8 combat classes, 9 combat jobs, 8 crafting classes, and 3 gathering classes?
No sir, those are "sub-classes. Meaning a Combat class can have a crafting sub-class. Sort of like a specialization that isn't combat oriented.
It is no different than a Troll Warrior being a Blacksmith in DAOC. That's not what the OP is talking about.
What the OP was referring to was an SWG reference to ACTUAL primary classes that are not combat oriented such as Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Tailor, Biologist (forgot name, but the dudes who augmented pet DNA), etc etc.
However, I believe the OP is being too hardcore about the term sandbox on his own personal terms. It can be a Sandbox without non-combat professions.
I'd prefer them myself to exist though !
Badspock is smarter then that, he was poking fun at the OP definition of what it means to be a good sandbox.
If there aren't any completely non-combat classes announced, then you can be sure this is just going to be some sort of dumbed down sandpark game and not a real sandbox. Even though I wouldn't play a non-combat class, I think this is the most important reveal they can do tomorrow because it will be very telling about the type of game EQN will end up becoming.
I don't see the industry adopting your concept. Try again.
It makes about as much sense as an MMO with no PVE content... wait, never mind.
The guy is coming in here swinging his epeen trying to tell everyone what the real definition of sandbox is. All I was doing was putting him back in his place. You don't need to kiss his ...
(Hey, psst, yeah, you, over there. I was making fun of the game in your sig).
My issue with non-combat classes is that it doesn't make any sense. If anything, it strikes me as anti-sandbox.
If I am a professional woodcutter, what exactly prevents me from whacking someone with that axe, if I want to?
A hybridized/mixed system where you can do a mix of what you want makes a lot more sense than a specialized weaver class that is unable to wield a dagger.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
My issue with non-combat classes is that it doesn't make any sense. If anything, it strikes me as anti-sandbox.
If I am a professional woodcutter, what exactly prevents me from whacking someone with that axe, if I want to?
A hybridized/mixed system where you can do a mix of what you want makes a lot more sense than a specialized weaver class that is unable to wield a dagger.
I always saw it like this:
Blacksmiths get hammer combat moves.
Carpenters get Axe and bow combat moves.
Weavers get needle, hooks and threads as combat moves
This way crafters could also recive combat moves.
I also think this should work the other way, so if someone is really good with swords and blacksmith hammer, they can make bettern swords than a blacksmith who only maxxed blacksmith hammer.
My issue with non-combat classes is that it doesn't make any sense. If anything, it strikes me as anti-sandbox.
If I am a professional woodcutter, what exactly prevents me from whacking someone with that axe, if I want to?
Well, a professional woodcutter beating a professional soldier doesn't make any sense either. Hacking at a tree and combat moves are two very different things - as said in a movie, trees don't fight back.
Tell that to Saruman in Lord of the Rings
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Comments
Because life is sandbox =-)
I don't see the industry adopting your concept. Try again.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It makes about as much sense as an MMO with no PVE content... wait, never mind.
The minute you have classes with set abilities you've moved toward the themepark end of the spectrum. A full sandbox is a canvas upon which the player entirely creates content. A full themepark is a completed piece of art you are guided across. Most games fall between those points. Ideally, in a game trying to be more sandbox than not, you'd have skills that you blend into whatever style of gameplay you favor. So a person could be a crafter and combatant (with limited variety between) or a full crafter (with wide array of crafting options but no combat skill) or full combatant (with more diverse combat options but no crafting).
However those systems tend to be complicated and hold a larger learning curve when trying to really define what you want to be. Which is why many games (like SWG) choose to make set classes to simplify the process. This move, naturally, takes part of the canvas away from the player to create on, but leaves very much still open for them to create. A simple way to view it is that a full sandbox is nothing but tools. SWG was like a canvas with some trees painted on the border. You still decided what was in the middle of those trees, but could not change the setting so much that no trees existed. This model is important if setting and world matters, as it did for SWG. A theme had to be maintained, else it couldn't be called Star Wars. EQN will be the same way, because so much of the setting has already been established.
That said, if they are clever, there are ways to handle both issues without tearing away too much canvas control from the player. A few improvements over systems already proven could go a long way. I would prefer classless builds, but I understand why that is unlikely and won't hate them for it. In fact, given the world and setting, I can see how pure crafters would not exist. Its not that kind of world, and has never been established as such. But I'd like to see their core concepts design doc over it, for sure.
Sorta. I want to gank a hairdresser in game, take their bag full of cosmetics and sell it back to them at a ridiculous price. Any real sandbox would have this option.
This has nothing to do with being a sandbox.
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Actually, yea it does. If the game doesn't let you start as a vocation then it's token. It's the same in EVE Online. You can make and skill a character that never leaves a station. They are as integral as any PvP pilot even if the PvP pilot lives in denial of that.
It is a benchmark of a sandbox.
Just my opinion but I don't like any character can do anything approach. It makes sense if you want a game just for combat/quests but it takes away the role from role-playing. If you start as a warrior, his attributes will most likely by higher in physical area, with limited intelligence. Then tomorrow he is a wizard? You get to respec his attributes? So now he is a different character, so why not just make a new one?
If you want more freedom of character building then a classless system would be better. maybe sacrifice some str/con/dex for higher int and make a hybrid to be melee/magic. But those hybrids usually end up not being as good at either as needed, so outside of PnP RP, don't work well in vid games. I tried all types of multi-classes in DDO and not many worked well at higher levs-had to sacrifice too much from either class.
Anyway, as for sandbox i just want as many options as thy can give us without it taking away from some other aspect of game.
Yep, some people like to build sandcastles and others like to kick them down.
The guy is coming in here swinging his epeen trying to tell everyone what the real definition of sandbox is. All I was doing was putting him back in his place. You don't need to kiss his ...
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The fact that they consider the original EQ a sandbox guarantees EQnext will not be a sandbox. If SOE did manage to create a sandbox game, then their microtransaction model would kill it anyways. I don't think I have seen so much forum PR, since the release of GW2, and we all know how great that game turned out.
How will you get past their +10 hairdryer and curling iron of fabulousness.
This
"Sandbox" is definitely not a meaningless term.
The problem is it is best used to describe features rather than games.
Any feature design that allows the player greater freedom to alter their play experience and that of other people is a sandbox feature.
However there are many different kinds of features with this quality, and some games will have one subset while another will have a different subset.
A game is best referred to as a sandbox if it chooses the sandbox option for most of it's features, as compared with industry standards. But the boundaries are necessarily vague.
I hate to quote myself, but.....
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Returning players get 1 free server transfer
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My guess is that there will be a lot of areas to progress outside of combat classes, I believe I've seen Dave say this specifically. Vanguard actually has a fully fleshed out crafting classes and EQ2 has questing and content similar to combat class options. I'm hoping for a lot of various progessions in EQN and would indeed see them as a "sandbox" feature, especially if I could switch betwwen them.
I would like to add that the OP was pretty vague and as it started a thread, opening up a subject for discussion, the OP who started it should not be attacking those offering to give thier input.
No sir, those are "sub-classes. Meaning a Combat class can have a crafting sub-class. Sort of like a specialization that isn't combat oriented.
It is no different than a Troll Warrior being a Blacksmith in DAOC. That's not what the OP is talking about.
What the OP was referring to was an SWG reference to ACTUAL primary classes that are not combat oriented such as Weaponsmith, Armorsmith, Tailor, Biologist (forgot name, but the dudes who augmented pet DNA), etc etc.
However, I believe the OP is being too hardcore about the term sandbox on his own personal terms. It can be a Sandbox without non-combat professions.
I'd prefer them myself to exist though
!
See my reply to BadSpock, those are not true definitions of the word "class" as per OP's...OP
. We're not talking about sub-professions here that anyone can have. OP was talking about TRUE primary classes that are non-combat.
Badspock is smarter then that, he was poking fun at the OP definition of what it means to be a good sandbox.
(Hey, psst, yeah, you, over there. I was making fun of the game in your sig).
My issue with non-combat classes is that it doesn't make any sense. If anything, it strikes me as anti-sandbox.
If I am a professional woodcutter, what exactly prevents me from whacking someone with that axe, if I want to?
A hybridized/mixed system where you can do a mix of what you want makes a lot more sense than a specialized weaver class that is unable to wield a dagger.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I always saw it like this:
Blacksmiths get hammer combat moves.
Carpenters get Axe and bow combat moves.
Weavers get needle, hooks and threads as combat moves
This way crafters could also recive combat moves.
I also think this should work the other way, so if someone is really good with swords and blacksmith hammer, they can make bettern swords than a blacksmith who only maxxed blacksmith hammer.
CRAFTING COMBAT SYNERGY!
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
Tell that to Saruman in Lord of the Rings
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