Originally posted by mCalvert My theory is that WOW is only popular because most of its players have never tried anything else.
A lot of WoW players never actually did play MMO's before. You know why they started? because they found out that WoW didn't have a huge time investment requirement. AKA WoW developed a better model that appealed to a larger audience, not just a handful of people
For a new MMO player, WoW was a HUGE time investment. Even more once you started raiding...
A lot of WoW players never actually did play MMO's before. You know why they started? because they found out that WoW didn't have a huge time investment requirement. AKA WoW developed a better model that appealed to a larger audience, not just a handful of people
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior.
Or, a MMO can finish far "out of the running" and still be a superior product, for any given individual player.
Subs-based argument...why do people still insist upon fielding them, 15 years into the genre?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
For a new MMO player, WoW was a HUGE time investment. Even more once you started raiding...
in comparison to other mmos with waiting for rare spawns to finish a quest -- WOW didnt have that timesink
New players didn't even know what a timesink was. Imagine never playing an MMO, and the most time you ever put into a game was a single player RPG, like Final Fantasy. Spending hundreds or thousands of hours playing one game was unimaginable.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior.
Or, a MMO can finish far "out of the running" and still be a superior product, for any given individual player.
Subs-based argument...why do people still insist upon fielding them, 15 years into the genre?
Because its pretty relevant. If you're willing to pay $15 a month to use 1 product and you AREN'T willing to play a product of a similar genre FOR FREE, then one can infer that the p2p product is simply better.
Because its pretty relevant. If you're willing to pay $15 a month to use 1 product and you AREN'T willing to play a product of a similar genre FOR FREE, then one can infer that the p2p product is simply better.
Which is completely irrelevant to sub-counts arguments. Sub-counts consist solely of ad numerum.
Do you like the national leading peanut butter, or the #2? Is the popularity ratio for an overall national audience what made your decision on the products, or was it the taste? Or perhaps you're a slave to advertising. Maybe you prefer almond butter, or even (gasp) the #3 brand.
My goodness, this is more complicated than On/Off binary decisions, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
New players didn't even know what a timesink was. Imagine never playing an MMO, and the most time you ever put into a game was a single player RPG, like Final Fantasy. Spending hundreds or thousands of hours playing one game was unimaginable.
WOW was the first mmo to be casual friendly
- there were zero timesinks in questing to level (unless you count earning cash for lvl40 mount)
- there was zero experience penalty if you died (unheard of)
WOW offered deeper gameplay for those that wanted it too
but no mmo compared to WOW for offering casual play of logging in for 15 minutes and feeling like you accomplished something
Played wow for 7 years. It certainly is a great game and it was the best imo for many years. But it's showing its age and I feel like GW2 is just as good today. While different games gw2 has managed to take hold of me just like wow did.
Because its pretty relevant. If you're willing to pay $15 a month to use 1 product and you AREN'T willing to play a product of a similar genre FOR FREE, then one can infer that the p2p product is simply better.
Which is completely irrelevant to sub-counts arguments. Sub-counts consist solely of ad numerum.
Do you like the national leading peanut butter, or the #2? Is the popularity ratio for an overall national audience what made your decision on the products, or was it the taste? Or perhaps you're a slave to advertising. Maybe you prefer almond butter, or even (gasp) the #3 brand.
My goodness, this is more complicated than On/Off binary decisions, isn't it?
I grab what peanut butter I like, I'm not influenced by numbers (mostly because I don't know them nor do I care). If the peanut butter I like happens to be the #1 peanut butter then there's probably good reason. If I like an MMO and it happens to be #1, then there's, again, probably good reason.
This is still missing the point that you can play and be subscribed to other MMORPG's at once. I can play WoW and play Rift and GW2 all I want, there's nothing stopping me, or anyone else. The fact that more people play WoW and not other games should signify that more people enjoy WoW
I get it, its hip to still hate on WoW because it's the big dog and it defied what YOU think an MMO should be, and it was successful in doing so.
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Not suprised wow has keept that "title" for such a long time, mmorpgs ever since wow released have been nothing but a poor attempt at recreating wow's sucsess by using theyr own formula mixed with a slightly diffrent flavour.
As long as devs insist on trying to ride blizzards coattails, no one will surpass them..
That said, I am still hopeful that we will see something truely innovative by the end of next year, its way overdue.
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Yes, based on my opinion and those players who quit are quitting a bit too late, cuz I already quit 7½ months ago. Blizzard has been doing extremely poor job this year and its been losing subs more severely than ever cuz of it. The fact they have continuesly done nothing for bleeding servers with low population and the fact they have ignored taking actions toward players who continued to abuse the PvP ratings or fix it swiftly is one of the reasons they losing those subs.
But 5.4 shows that they starting to be aware that its their fault for losing subs and not blaming things on anything else, which is why there are all those changes and improvements beside all the new PvE content coming with patch 5.4.
Once 5.4 gets released which is supposed to be soon, WOW will remain the best overall choice for the MMORPG player. Like I said I would love to be wrong, but none yet including you has failred to deliver alternative choice that's as good or better with valid reasons.
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Yes, based on my opinion and those players who quit are quitting a bit too late, cuz I already quit 7½ months ago. Blizzard has been doing extremely poor job this year and its been losing subs more severely than ever cuz of it. The fact they have continuesly done nothing for bleeding servers with low population and the fact they have ignored taking actions toward players who continued to abuse the PvP ratings or fix it swiftly is one of the reasons they losing those subs.
But 5.4 shows that they starting to be aware that its their fault for losing subs and not blaming things on anything else, which is why there are all those changes and improvements beside all the new PvE content coming with patch 5.4.
Once 5.4 gets released which is supposed to be soon, WOW will remain the best overall choice for the MMORPG player. Like I said I would love to be wrong, but none yet including you has failred to deliver alternative choice that's as good or better with valid reasons.
I take it WoW was your first MMO because if you would've played MMOs prior, you would have a totally different opinion. At least that's my opinion, but if you enjoyed it then so be it. We are all different and that's a good thing.
Just like there is no "best" choice of FPS .. i play many, there is no "best" choice of MMO.
and on the 8th day God created Counterstrike. After resting.
Haha - good point. However, the Quake and COD fans would disagree with you.
Also I believe COD is the most popular FPS in the world now. But Counter-strike definitely held that title for years and years (sort of like how WoW has held the title of most popular MMORPG for years and years).
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Thats a lot of players to lose for a game with 1M subs. With 10m, its not nearly as bad. WoW is losing players, this is true, but its 10 years old. The fact that it's retained a higher base than most MMORPG's have even HAD for 10 years speaks extroardinary volume
The leap of faith is that you (or any specific individual) will enjoy everything that "more people" do.
Does that work out with your music? Big fan of the Biebs?
America sure needs a Stats 110 course.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The leap of faith is that you (or any specific individual) will enjoy everything that "more people" do.
Does that work out with your music? Big fan of the Biebs?
America sure needs a Stats 110 course.
You're making a lot of erroneous conclusions here.
Justin Beiber sells a lot of albums, therefore he is in fact good. The bigger question that you aren't addressing is WHY and WHO he is selling too. He's selling to teenagers who aren't exactly fickle with music and money, so it's easy for him to sell a lot. You could make the argument that he's actually terrible, but then the question is why aren't "good" bands or singers selling out like him?
You don't have to enjoy WoW (or Beiber), especially since it's popular. Thats not the question, nor would I say you are wrong for saying that you don't like WoW. The incorrect assessment is saying that it is actually bad when any measurable metric grossly proves otherwise. That just makes you a hater
Just like there is no "best" choice of FPS .. i play many, there is no "best" choice of MMO.
and on the 8th day God created Counterstrike. After resting.
Haha - good point. However, the Quake and COD fans would disagree with you.
Also I believe COD is the most popular FPS in the world now. But Counter-strike definitely held that title for years and years (sort of like how WoW has held the title of most popular MMORPG for years and years).
Although soon it might be #1 or #2 choice cuz of FFXIV:ARR, but still that has to be determined and of course this is just my opinion, but I would love to be wrong...
The irony is how 9 years has passed, which is 10% of our lives...and some things we can learn.
Great MMORPG ran by a great company can last for almost a decade and be still superior. So if anyone has to blame anything else, but themself for not managing to achieve HALF of WOW's success will continue to deliver what we've mostly seen delivered over the years and I would really prefer if I played more than 5-6 great MMORPG's in my lifetime...
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Yes, based on my opinion and those players who quit are quitting a bit too late, cuz I already quit 7½ months ago. Blizzard has been doing extremely poor job this year and its been losing subs more severely than ever cuz of it. The fact they have continuesly done nothing for bleeding servers with low population and the fact they have ignored taking actions toward players who continued to abuse the PvP ratings or fix it swiftly is one of the reasons they losing those subs.
But 5.4 shows that they starting to be aware that its their fault for losing subs and not blaming things on anything else, which is why there are all those changes and improvements beside all the new PvE content coming with patch 5.4.
Once 5.4 gets released which is supposed to be soon, WOW will remain the best overall choice for the MMORPG player. Like I said I would love to be wrong, but none yet including you has failred to deliver alternative choice that's as good or better with valid reasons.
Valid reasons? It's opinion, what people like, people cannot give you an opinion. Think of the mmo you hate the most, someone loves that game, and it is probably their favorite mmo ever. Just like me never liking WoW, doesn't make your WoW love not real.
I see Everquest Next being developed since 2009. How can I be attracted to a MMORPG knowing the company behind will be pushing the resources generated from the MMORPG I choose to commit to a different product? This is on top of all the other expenses they have to cover from paying fat checks to the CEO's to paying enormous $ for advertising.
OF COURSE the MMORPG I will be playing will be doomed year from launch. I don't see why this community is so hyped toward Everquest Next, based on the history SOE has with running their MMORPG's. My guess it's cuz most are desperate for a great MMORPG, which we have not seen for like forever.
When the hype on this site was 9+ as well for Guild Wars 2 I still choose to not buy it and I so do not regret my decision. My choices are quite simple these days...
Come back to WOW and buy 3 month of sub once patch 5.4 comes or not play any MMORPG for a very very very long time. I have not spent $ on a new MMORPG in the last 2 years and 7 months, so at least I can afford playing the best for the time being.
To one of the posters above, no WOW was not my 1st MMORPG. In fact I come from the sandbox era, played Ultima Online and SWG Pre-CU hardcore and I really hope the best for Everquest Next, but that will be a year + for me before I'm 100% certain it will be the next greatest MMORPG. On the other hand I'll continue to support the company that truly knows how to maintain and support my MMORPG of choice for almost a decade.
If WOW goes downhill like what happened so far this year, I always got the choice to stop my sub for the time being. Im glad I'm not alone and the result is patch 5.4 and not turning it into F2P or giving up on the game entirely.
Blizzard did indeed invest a lot of their revenue to other projects like Titan, D3, SC2 and thats hurting WOW as well, but WOW is still too big of a cash cow for Blizzard to give up on it. They wouldn't be that ignorant. Everything eventually ends, and WOW is surely showing signs of that and it should end. Like I said I really want to play more than 5-6 great, AAA MMORPG"s in my lifetime, but I'll continue to support the best MMORPG until something else epic comes along the way, otherwise I'll be left with 0 great MMORPG's to play and dozen of mediocre ones.
Tomorrow we will find out more about Everquest Next and as a longtime sandbox player and supporter, Everquest Next remains my #1 hyped MMORPG for the time being.
Comments
I only played the beta, never grabbed me, so definitely not my best choice.
For a new MMO player, WoW was a HUGE time investment. Even more once you started raiding...
fully agree
EQ2 fan sites
in comparison to other mmos with waiting for rare spawns to finish a quest -- WOW didnt have that timesink
EQ2 fan sites
Was not interested in WoW in Nov 2004, and im still not interested (Aug 2014).
To me the success of an MMO is not determined in sub numbers, but in game quality.
Resist the mainstream movement!
Or, a MMO can finish far "out of the running" and still be a superior product, for any given individual player.
Subs-based argument...why do people still insist upon fielding them, 15 years into the genre?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
gameplay > graphics
New players didn't even know what a timesink was. Imagine never playing an MMO, and the most time you ever put into a game was a single player RPG, like Final Fantasy. Spending hundreds or thousands of hours playing one game was unimaginable.
Because its pretty relevant. If you're willing to pay $15 a month to use 1 product and you AREN'T willing to play a product of a similar genre FOR FREE, then one can infer that the p2p product is simply better.
Which is completely irrelevant to sub-counts arguments. Sub-counts consist solely of ad numerum.
Do you like the national leading peanut butter, or the #2? Is the popularity ratio for an overall national audience what made your decision on the products, or was it the taste? Or perhaps you're a slave to advertising. Maybe you prefer almond butter, or even (gasp) the #3 brand.
My goodness, this is more complicated than On/Off binary decisions, isn't it?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WOW was the first mmo to be casual friendly
- there were zero timesinks in questing to level (unless you count earning cash for lvl40 mount)
- there was zero experience penalty if you died (unheard of)
WOW offered deeper gameplay for those that wanted it too
but no mmo compared to WOW for offering casual play of logging in for 15 minutes and feeling like you accomplished something
EQ2 fan sites
I grab what peanut butter I like, I'm not influenced by numbers (mostly because I don't know them nor do I care). If the peanut butter I like happens to be the #1 peanut butter then there's probably good reason. If I like an MMO and it happens to be #1, then there's, again, probably good reason.
This is still missing the point that you can play and be subscribed to other MMORPG's at once. I can play WoW and play Rift and GW2 all I want, there's nothing stopping me, or anyone else. The fact that more people play WoW and not other games should signify that more people enjoy WoW
I get it, its hip to still hate on WoW because it's the big dog and it defied what YOU think an MMO should be, and it was successful in doing so.
Not suprised wow has keept that "title" for such a long time, mmorpgs ever since wow released have been nothing but a poor attempt at recreating wow's sucsess by using theyr own formula mixed with a slightly diffrent flavour.
As long as devs insist on trying to ride blizzards coattails, no one will surpass them..
That said, I am still hopeful that we will see something truely innovative by the end of next year, its way overdue.
Your comment is based highly on opinion. I personally think WoW is a piece of MMO drivel that needs to go away. Also, WoW's population is slowly vanishing. Just on July 26th they reported they lost another 600k subscribers. That's a lot of players to lose. Not only that but most of their playerbase is from outside of the West.
Smile
Yes, based on my opinion and those players who quit are quitting a bit too late, cuz I already quit 7½ months ago. Blizzard has been doing extremely poor job this year and its been losing subs more severely than ever cuz of it. The fact they have continuesly done nothing for bleeding servers with low population and the fact they have ignored taking actions toward players who continued to abuse the PvP ratings or fix it swiftly is one of the reasons they losing those subs.
But 5.4 shows that they starting to be aware that its their fault for losing subs and not blaming things on anything else, which is why there are all those changes and improvements beside all the new PvE content coming with patch 5.4.
Once 5.4 gets released which is supposed to be soon, WOW will remain the best overall choice for the MMORPG player. Like I said I would love to be wrong, but none yet including you has failred to deliver alternative choice that's as good or better with valid reasons.
WoW = 1st and best MMO>
I take it WoW was your first MMO because if you would've played MMOs prior, you would have a totally different opinion. At least that's my opinion, but if you enjoyed it then so be it. We are all different and that's a good thing.
Haha - good point. However, the Quake and COD fans would disagree with you.
Also I believe COD is the most popular FPS in the world now. But Counter-strike definitely held that title for years and years (sort of like how WoW has held the title of most popular MMORPG for years and years).
Thats a lot of players to lose for a game with 1M subs. With 10m, its not nearly as bad. WoW is losing players, this is true, but its 10 years old. The fact that it's retained a higher base than most MMORPG's have even HAD for 10 years speaks extroardinary volume
Indeed it does.
The leap of faith is that you (or any specific individual) will enjoy everything that "more people" do.
Does that work out with your music? Big fan of the Biebs?
America sure needs a Stats 110 course.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You're making a lot of erroneous conclusions here.
Justin Beiber sells a lot of albums, therefore he is in fact good. The bigger question that you aren't addressing is WHY and WHO he is selling too. He's selling to teenagers who aren't exactly fickle with music and money, so it's easy for him to sell a lot. You could make the argument that he's actually terrible, but then the question is why aren't "good" bands or singers selling out like him?
You don't have to enjoy WoW (or Beiber), especially since it's popular. Thats not the question, nor would I say you are wrong for saying that you don't like WoW. The incorrect assessment is saying that it is actually bad when any measurable metric grossly proves otherwise. That just makes you a hater
But we all know Battlefield is the best now.
Valid reasons? It's opinion, what people like, people cannot give you an opinion. Think of the mmo you hate the most, someone loves that game, and it is probably their favorite mmo ever. Just like me never liking WoW, doesn't make your WoW love not real.
I see Everquest Next being developed since 2009. How can I be attracted to a MMORPG knowing the company behind will be pushing the resources generated from the MMORPG I choose to commit to a different product? This is on top of all the other expenses they have to cover from paying fat checks to the CEO's to paying enormous $ for advertising.
OF COURSE the MMORPG I will be playing will be doomed year from launch. I don't see why this community is so hyped toward Everquest Next, based on the history SOE has with running their MMORPG's. My guess it's cuz most are desperate for a great MMORPG, which we have not seen for like forever.
When the hype on this site was 9+ as well for Guild Wars 2 I still choose to not buy it and I so do not regret my decision. My choices are quite simple these days...
Come back to WOW and buy 3 month of sub once patch 5.4 comes or not play any MMORPG for a very very very long time. I have not spent $ on a new MMORPG in the last 2 years and 7 months, so at least I can afford playing the best for the time being.
To one of the posters above, no WOW was not my 1st MMORPG. In fact I come from the sandbox era, played Ultima Online and SWG Pre-CU hardcore and I really hope the best for Everquest Next, but that will be a year + for me before I'm 100% certain it will be the next greatest MMORPG. On the other hand I'll continue to support the company that truly knows how to maintain and support my MMORPG of choice for almost a decade.
If WOW goes downhill like what happened so far this year, I always got the choice to stop my sub for the time being. Im glad I'm not alone and the result is patch 5.4 and not turning it into F2P or giving up on the game entirely.
Blizzard did indeed invest a lot of their revenue to other projects like Titan, D3, SC2 and thats hurting WOW as well, but WOW is still too big of a cash cow for Blizzard to give up on it. They wouldn't be that ignorant. Everything eventually ends, and WOW is surely showing signs of that and it should end. Like I said I really want to play more than 5-6 great, AAA MMORPG"s in my lifetime, but I'll continue to support the best MMORPG until something else epic comes along the way, otherwise I'll be left with 0 great MMORPG's to play and dozen of mediocre ones.
Tomorrow we will find out more about Everquest Next and as a longtime sandbox player and supporter, Everquest Next remains my #1 hyped MMORPG for the time being.