Originally posted by CactusJack Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by CactusJackOriginally posted by VentlusOriginally posted by killahhafter watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?/face in handsWell i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game. And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player. Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out. You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me. The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose". I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage. Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player? As I have stated before, the two OW PvP games I've spent the most time in are EvE and DF1. Superior gear and higher levels are easy to overcome with friends. It's why solo play isn't a great choice in those games, more so in DF. Here's the thing..skill progression in EvE in any skill is up to V. Tha'ts five. The killboards are littered with many higher sp players losing to groups of lesser skilled players bc they caught that guy napping or they planned a counter attack. It's all BS. If a newb is walking along and I was out hunting in DF...I would attack them sometimes...just to see what they do. Some of them ran, some started typing frantically, some just stopped...you know whom I was looking for...the person that fought back. If you are willing to fight me with less skill points and lesser gear...but gave it their all...I would reimburse you or even rez them.
People don't have to win the fight to become better players. I remember the first time I got warp scrambled in an asteroid belt and destroyed..I was pissed. I was angry, but I thought...how did he do that? What skill governs warp disruptors? How do you fit it? What are the power requirements? It made me learn the pvp side because I wanted a counter to it. I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand. Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
In the light socket lesson, the player would learn to not play the game. Which is fine, everyone should exercise their ability to learn and to choose.
But again, what changes in a player when they are killed by a more powerful player, or group of players? The only thing that can change is that they conform to the rules of the game. In other words, they attain a higher power level, they do not attack players that might beat them, and most of all, they do not run around alone. No other set of tactics make sense when the goal is to win. Using this set of tactics they don't have to improve their personal skills very much. Is that what makes them better players?
You've noted how you play, but not how the fairly common scenario of a new player being beaten by an older player or by groups of players makes them better players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
While I do enjoy PVP and think EQN should have it, I also think it cannot simply be "open world full loot."
The OP is a classic of why this is. The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank. New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity. And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up." This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.
No company that wants to build a customer base is going to go for a game design where one body of customers - the "hard core PVPers" is dedicated to making the rest of the customers miserable and perhaps even to drive them from the game.
Who's demanding anything? I'm just dispelling myths about what myself and others like me want in a future MMO. The text in yellow is myth #1 in action:
1. You just want to grief me.
This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
Originally posted by SirBalin
Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.
Originally posted by DocBrody
Originally posted by SirBalin
Originally posted by Bidwood
Dispelling the myths about full PVP
Okay, so that’s what I was able to come up with so far. I’ll probably refine this and come up with a “v 2.0” after all of the arguments are made.
Hope it is full pvp...but carebears love to ruin games with their loud qq in the forums.
so true. PvPvE players might kill players AND NPC, but PvE-only players kill games. Their victim list is long and gruesome.
I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.
I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So... keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.
Edit: SOME of the responses, including ones I don't agree with, have been polite and well reasoned. Others have been really hostile and perhaps trolling. For the legit ones, sorry I haven't responded but this thread really took off and I am having a hard time keeping up.
The OP is a classic of why this is. The demand is couched in terms that drip with hostile anticipation of noobs to gank. New players will be treated like applicants to a sadistic college fraternity. And concerns are dismissed since that means people just need to "toughen up." This makes MMOs sound like one of those "scared straight" boot camps, except here it is the adolescents terrorizing the adults.
So eloquently put...
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by killahhafter watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?/face in handsWell i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game. And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player. Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out. You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me. The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose". I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage. Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?
As I have stated before, the two OW PvP games I've spent the most time in are EvE and DF1. Superior gear and higher levels are easy to overcome with friends. It's why solo play isn't a great choice in those games, more so in DF. Here's the thing..skill progression in EvE in any skill is up to V. Tha'ts five. The killboards are littered with many higher sp players losing to groups of lesser skilled players bc they caught that guy napping or they planned a counter attack. It's all BS. If a newb is walking along and I was out hunting in DF...I would attack them sometimes...just to see what they do. Some of them ran, some started typing frantically, some just stopped...you know whom I was looking for...the person that fought back. If you are willing to fight me with less skill points and lesser gear...but gave it their all...I would reimburse you or even rez them.
People don't have to win the fight to become better players. I remember the first time I got warp scrambled in an asteroid belt and destroyed..I was pissed. I was angry, but I thought...how did he do that? What skill governs warp disruptors? How do you fit it? What are the power requirements? It made me learn the pvp side because I wanted a counter to it.
I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand.
Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
In the light socket lesson, the player would learn to not play the game. Which is fine, everyone should exercise their ability to learn and to choose.
But again, what changes in a player when they are killed by a more powerful player, or group of players? The only thing that can change is that they conform to the rules of the game. In other words, they attain a higher power level, they do not attack players that might beat them, and most of all, they do not run around alone. No other set of tactics make sense when the goal is to win. Using this set of tactics they don't have to improve their personal skills very much. Is that what makes them better players?
You've noted how you play, but not how the fairly common scenario of a new player being beaten by an older player or by groups of players makes them better players.
I don't know if I can make it anymore clear. I play FFA PvP games because the game GIVES ME the MECHANIC to seek my own justice. Would you like another example? I was flying through Minmatar space when a buddy of mine says there's a guy that jumped him low sec a few days ago in local.
I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.
My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.
The point being...PvP is a tool. It's a mindset. If a player looks at it like it's only for ganking/horrible/mean activity..they shouldn't play that game.
As I've grown as a player...helping noobs becomes an intergral part of the long term growth of any game. I will say that DF1 was a bug ridden, macro using, bloodwall enhanced lunatics. I personally left DF not because of any of that stuff. I left bc of the combat. The meta game of creating alts to empty out other clanbanks...logging into their vent/TS channels to spy on them before a war....same stuff goes on in EvE is what makes it great.
My play I feel is reflective of people that have been playing PvP games for a long time. If I was a 16 y/o that would teabag your corpse in BF3 after killing you...I would imagine that I would shit talk in local or dance around after I killed you in DF. I wouldn't help you, I would ridicule you and tell you how much you suck.
That type of behavior isn't what makes the game. Pick yourself and learn from it. I have been beaten many times by those type of players. Did I rage quit and type in caps that they should burn in hell? Nope, I said..."hey thanks for the ass beating...good fight." Or.."next time I'll bring something that doesn't have a mining laser mounted on it."
Then again..maybe that's just me. I was killed many times as a newb EvE player by much more experienced PvP'ers and they either were indifferent or helpful. A lot of the elder players either didn't give a shit enough about killing you..or they would help you.
I guess to directly respond to your question is...learning how to lose takes practice. I didn't learn what the difference between falloff and optimal range in one pvp encounter. It took me getting my ass kicked a bit, plus asking questions and actively seeking out ways to improve my skill as a PLAYER not what my in game skills or whatever.
Once I wrapped my head around that, I never undocked the same way again.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.
I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So... keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.
Not sure who is a minority in terms of numbers. I think it is more complex than that. Many people enjoy PVP - or would enjoy it if it was properly implemented - but don't want to see it overwhelming the rest of the game. The "hard core" have a very specific definition of "real" PVP and that is open-world, full loot, preferably with the ability to send taunts and tells to the opponents/victims.
This "hard core PVP" playstyle really works best in the FPS style games like Counterstrike. Those games are 100 percent about shooting someone in the face. But an MMORPG has people playing for all sorts of reasons. And whether the "hard core" consider those to be "carebear" reasons or not, they are legitimate for those players - it is what they enjoy (e.g. crafting, roleplay events, questing). Many roleplayers in fact welcome appropriate PVP since real roleplay is tough without it. What is "appropriate" is where the sides start to divide. Those are the decisions the game designers need to make.
But here is the crux of it. Unlike all the other playstyles, e.g. crafting, open world PVP is unique in that it IS "imposed." And for a significant part of the "hard core" PVP community that is what is most important. They get to exert power and control over others. It has to be handled differently for that reason.
Note: I have experienced a lot of PVP in MMO, all the way back to pre-Trammel UO and through two years of Shadowbane. I once thought like the "hard core" did. But over time I came to see how placing priority on one type of activity - PVP - tended to make game worlds less interesting and game populations less diverse. So yes to PVP, but it needs to be placed in a context where it does not overwhelm the rest of the game.
An EVE-style hybrid sounds good to me. If they make the world as vast as they say, there should be plenty of room for everyone, including those who want the zero sec experience.
I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.
My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.
So basically you fight violence with violence. That's great, and that's what EVE was made for. That's the point. A lot of people have deep loathing for the entire freaking mentality you just described, from the "how dare" attitudes to this tough guy PvPer you're so cool adapting the "right attitude" for a video game. But even you, what did you use, you used a ship you could replace, you do things that are easy, you do not do what is hard. But there are those of us who are the opposite. We don't want easy. We want a fair fight, a challenge, and we're not afraid to take risks for giggles. We don't play these games because they are all about cowardly tactics by rare exception. Risk-reward, kid me not, no "remove all risk, then I'll go after the reward, maybe" is the attitude of most EVE players.
Like that other poster said, bootcamp with kids in charge. Problem is, the tool you describe only works for the likes of the guy who went after, and the likes of yourself (you're basically the same). For the rest, it doesn't work at all. It's easy to shoot at people when you have a big ship and lots of friends, but what's far more difficult to do in EVE is change mentalities.
How many nullsec alliances are NRDS?
How often can people group with other people they don't know without danger of getting screwed over somehow?
How many scams are there in EVE?
How many people will shoot at you in lowsec for giggles?
That is the result of open, uncontrolled PvP. For a lot of people, these other things matter, obviously for you they don't, but people really don't get anywhere far if they are just busy shooting at each other and never do anything else. And that's what PvEers are - they do other things. Like, you know, building shit, trying to preserve something. Those who can, do, those who can't, bully.
You can argue "it's just a video game" but then you should have stopped your whole tirade before you started patting yourself on the back about how tough you are and how you learned something.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise. So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.
I have to agree. I commend the OP for the effort and well written post, but I can only agree with Azzamasin.
This thread is another good example of how "FFA PvP" proponents do not want any compromise, but want to force their play style on everyone else.
And my answer, coming from someone who's been playing those games for like forever, is this:
"Talk to the Hand!"
As usual you're wrong... and arrogant at the same time. Well done!
Nobody is talking about forcing anything onto anybody. OW PvP is simply something we want built into a game. It's not a game you HAVE to play. Are we not allowed to even WANT a certain kind of game? If you advocate for a non-pvp game, are you forcing me to only pve and never pvp?
Why on earth would anybody compromise in what they want out of a game? Is there a maximum amount of games that can be made? How about this: you can have whatever game you want, and I can have whatever game I want. You're trying to make it to be an insult that we don't want to compromise, but I take it as a compliment. We're principled and we know what we want. If anything, it makes me even more convinced that ours is the better, deeper type of game.... because we're willing to fight for it.
To me I do not see why open world and full loot must go together. Open world, always on pvp, fine... but who says people have to lose everything/most of what they have on them? Or have flagged PvP with full loot. Why must it be all or nothing? Personally, the game I played that had the most popular/used pvp system (excepting EvE, of course) was original SWG. There were 200 vs 200 almost every night on the server I was on, and that game had open world flagged PvP with no loot. So, full loot, always on pvp is not necessary for "good" pvp. The many thousands that pvp'd every night in original SWG proved that.
Originally posted by Burntvet To me I do not see why open world and full loot must go together. Open world, always on pvp, fine... but who says people have to lose everything/most of what they have on them? Or have flagged PvP with full loot. Why must it be all or nothing? Personally, the game I played that had the most popular/used pvp system (excepting EvE, of course) was original SWG. There were 200 vs 200 almost every night on the server I was on, and that game had open world flagged PvP with no loot. So, full loot, always on pvp is not necessary for "good" pvp. The many thousands that pvp'd every night in original SWG proved that.
Except our (the pvp crowd) primary desire is to have a game with consequences and risk/reward... not just that we want a good fight. If it was just about the fighting, we'd play a non-mmorpg pvp game like sc2 or q3 or something.
I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.
My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.
So basically you fight violence with violence. That's great, and that's what EVE was made for. That's the point. A lot of people have deep loathing for the entire freaking mentality you just described, from the "how dare" attitudes to this tough guy PvPer you're so cool adapting the "right attitude" for a video game. But even you, what did you use, you used a ship you could replace, you do things that are easy, you do not do what is hard. But there are those of us who are the opposite. We don't want easy. We want a fair fight, a challenge, and we're not afraid to take risks for giggles. We don't play these games because they are all about cowardly tactics by rare exception. Risk-reward, kid me not, no "remove all risk, then I'll go after the reward, maybe" is the attitude of most EVE players.
Like that other poster said, bootcamp with kids in charge. Problem is, the tool you describe only works for the likes of the guy who went after, and the likes of yourself (you're basically the same). For the rest, it doesn't work at all. It's easy to shoot at people when you have a big ship and lots of friends, but what's far more difficult to do in EVE is change mentalities.
How many nullsec alliances are NRDS?
How often can people group with other people they don't know without danger of getting screwed over somehow?
How many scams are there in EVE?
How many people will shoot at you in lowsec for giggles?
That is the result of open, uncontrolled PvP. For a lot of people, these other things matter, obviously for you they don't, but people really don't get anywhere far if they are just busy shooting at each other and never do anything else. And that's what PvEers are - they do other things. Like, you know, building shit, trying to preserve something. Those who can, do, those who can't, bully.
You can argue "it's just a video game" but then you should have stopped your whole tirade before you started patting yourself on the back about how tough you are and how you learned something.
Really? I patted myself on the back at how i'm a tough guy in a video game? I thought I was providing an explanation as to how to use the provided tools the game designer gave me? I had a big ship and lots of friends? Yes I had a t1 battleship. It was a disposable ship. It was destroyed in the process. I lost my ship too.
The tone of your response tells me you seem to be personally offended by what I'm writing. Maybe you just didn't read all of the responses in this same thread from me. Is it wrong for me to be happy that I learned something, instead of letting it ruin my time in the game? You say you want a "fair fight, a challenge and not afraid to take risks for giggles"? I applaud you for seeking out a fair fight. I have found that is never the case. The closet to a fair fight would be RvB or Red v Blue or the Alliance tournament. Fair fights don't really happen to often. I think I have covered that before.
On to more fun stuff...how many alliances are NRDS? All the good ones. There was only one that I can remember that wasn't..and they are long gone...CVA. They were a RP alliance. NRDS is how you keep out the rift raff. You want to hang out in my corp/alliances space? Either join or pay a fee. All those stations, POS's, jump bridges, etc aren't free. You want in, you pay rent like everyone else.
How many times can you group with random people and possibly get screwed over? I would say the chances are high. I would never group with someone I don't know. Again, fostering relationships with people is one of the reasons I play MMORPGs to begin with. If I wanted to group with people I didn't know and fight, I would play BF3.
as one of the main reasons they came to the game. I personally was more of a fan of the GHSC and the patience it took to pull it off. Scams are a part of it. Have you ever got an email from someone you don't know with an attachement? Did you open it? Scams are happening all over. I personally think it's hilarious. Scamming people is a science for some. I remind myself, it's a game after all.
How many people will shoot you in low sec for giggles? Um probably most of them. I firmly believe that lo sec is where the real pvp school lessons should be learned. If I FC'd, I didn't bring my guys into other 0.0, I brought them to lo sec. Lo sec is the true wild areas to me. I loved it. There were more care bears in 0.0 than in hi sec even. Again, does that sound arrogant? Does that sound like I'm trying to wave my awesome e-peen around? I can assure you I'm not.
To be honest, you're last statement was the worst. You are assuming that bc I like OWPvP, I don't like to build things? I don't like to maintain peaceful relations with others? And because of this, I'm a bully?
Wow. Just wow. I actually really enjoyed the dynamics of EvE's industrial side. Hell, when I first started to play EvE, I thought that was the route I would take. I never lost my desire to build, to gather RP's and turn them in for mats, to queue up stuff and research BPO's/make BPC's. I still to this day have a ton of that info saved into tidy files like simple/complex reactions, etc.
You are assuming that bc someone likes a game that allows you to CONTROL the space the live in, that makes them a bully? It does? I think my definition and yours for a bully are much different.
I guess at the end of the day, we have to agree to disagree. If I sound arrogant, I apologize. I could say the same about you, but it would seem that you are just passionate about your stance.
I also remember that this is a video game we are talking about, nothing more.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Originally posted by Burntvet To me I do not see why open world and full loot must go together. Open world, always on pvp, fine... but who says people have to lose everything/most of what they have on them? Or have flagged PvP with full loot. Why must it be all or nothing? Personally, the game I played that had the most popular/used pvp system (excepting EvE, of course) was original SWG. There were 200 vs 200 almost every night on the server I was on, and that game had open world flagged PvP with no loot. So, full loot, always on pvp is not necessary for "good" pvp. The many thousands that pvp'd every night in original SWG proved that.
open world pvp games don't necessarily have to go with full loot.
I personally prefer it though because I like to do a lot of crafting, gathering, and market stuff on top of pvp/pve play. The more diverse the game is the more I enjoy it quite often. There are great ways to build a game without a full loot mechanic though, but I enjoy the way the mechanic can blend well with a healthy economy and crafting system.
Mostly, I don't like any sort of end game gear or gear treadmill and a full loot pvp game with the type of design I enjoy ensures I am not expected to grind or save up for any particular best in slot gear. For some reason once I have a character with great gear that I know they'll never lose I lose all desire to play because I feel like my wealth has been amassed and I have nothing left to gain.
If someone can take that gear away from me then I know I am never truly done amassing wealth because it can all be lost eventually. There is always a goal to work towards.
Its certainly not the only way to build a game though, especially with the current player climate what it is with so many players being gear-centric these days and enjoying having gear that will last forever. its just not me.
And of course, as Holophoner says, the added thrill of having something on the line!
So they don't have to go together, but as with so many things.. some of us just wont play a game that is without it just like some of you guys won't play a game that has this sort of thing.
I brought up all the points that are the kind of things I'd want to achieve.
You basically told me they're impossible.
There's why I do not like FFA PvP. It makes people scared, selfish, paranoid, and violent. I know if I were to get a piece of nullsec space, I'd be hard to keep it NRDS. But that's a goal I could look forward to. Make a block of space with safety levels of high sec where people can do their non-PvP activities. It's technically possible. But in actuality, because of the attitudes of the EVE community, it'd require me to probably kill the rest of the entire EVE universe to make it possible. And that's why that game is so limiting. It's not real world, it's a small subset of real world people who like PvP dominated games. You can't work with them. All they want is pew-pew and destroy.
For the people who liked that scam millions stayed the fuck away from the game. That's the thing about EVE, it's fun to read about, but generally, it's really not that exciting to play.
And, yes, you sounded extremely arrogant with your Domi story. It's one thing to tell of something fun, it's another to act like it was some life achievement and that a person has to learn or adapt to the PvP world. You have to realize that you adapt because you like it, just like raiders theorycraft for raids because they like it, and RPers learn roleplaying because they liked it. So it's worthless. Your "this is how you regard the game correctly" is worthless. It's like telling you you should go RP and then calling you unimaginative if you are having trouble with it and don't really want it. And that's the boat many PvEers are in. That's it. It has nothing to do with peoples' lack of toughness or inability to adapt to a game or something. Cut it with that crap already, Jesus.
It's like every time someone complains about a feature in EVE some tough guy has to show up and talk about he "learned" something and "mastered" himself to get better at the game. No, sometimes we just don't like a feature and we think it's shitty, and we don't want to stomach it, adapt to it, or toughen up towards it.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I brought up all the points that are the kind of things I'd want to achieve.
You basically told me they're impossible.
There's why I do not like FFA PvP. It makes people scared, selfish, paranoid, and violent. I know if I were to get a piece of nullsec space, I'd be hard to keep it NRDS. But that's a goal I could look forward to. Make a block of space with safety levels of high sec where people can do their non-PvP activities. It's technically possible. But in actuality, because of the attitudes of the EVE community, it'd require me to probably kill the rest of the entire EVE universe to make it possible. And that's why that game is so limiting. It's not real world, it's a small subset of real world people who like PvP dominated games. You can't work with them. All they want is pew-pew and destroy.
For the people who liked that scam millions stayed the fuck away from the game. That's the thing about EVE, it's fun to read about, but generally, it's really not that exciting to play.
And, yes, you sounded extremely arrogant with your Domi story. It's one thing to tell of something fun, it's another to act like it was some life achievement and that a person has to learn or adapt to the PvP world. You have to realize that you adapt because you like it, just like raiders theorycraft for raids because they like it, and RPers learn roleplaying because they liked it. So it's worthless. Your "this is how you regard the game correctly" is worthless. It's like telling you you should go RP and then calling you unimaginative if you are having trouble with it and don't really want it. And that's the boat many PvEers are in. That's it. It has nothing to do with peoples' lack of toughness or inability to adapt to a game or something. Cut it with that crap already, Jesus.
It's like every time someone complains about a feature in EVE some tough guy has to show up and talk about he "learned" something and "mastered" himself to get better at the game. No, sometimes we just don't like a feature and we think it's shitty, and we don't want to stomach it, adapt to it, or toughen up towards it.
Ok then. You still sound really angry. I'm not on these forums to make enemies. I'm just expressing my views like you. Good luck in whatever it is you seek.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I will just make a quick reply to the OP´s myth #1
This is not a myth... It is a fact proven over and over again. On average in FFA PvP people will go for the "secure" win, this most of the time equals taking out a weaker opponent. Now most of the time the difference between player a and b is small enough to let skill still be a factor. But this does not negate the fact that grinding and "stomping" is a problem. Especially when the game have some time on the tooth and you have a "upper crust" that see them self as entiteld to stomp on less skilled players in order "to help them get better"
So while i can agree that the PvP community as a whole get a very bad rep due to a smaller subset of people.. It does not make said subset go away just because you close your eyes and say "i do not see you". Said subset also tend to cause a disproportional amount of stress on the less active part of the community (the usually LARGER part of the community) leading to them either quitting or retaliating. This in turn steps the conflict up and more people suffer.
But as for dispelling myths OP i give you a weak 2 at best...
Originally posted by CactusJack I don't know if I can make it anymore clear. I play FFA PvP games because the game GIVES ME the MECHANIC to seek my own justice. Would you like another example? I was flying through Minmatar space when a buddy of mine says there's a guy that jumped him low sec a few days ago in local.I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.The point being...PvP is a tool. It's a mindset. If a player looks at it like it's only for ganking/horrible/mean activity..they shouldn't play that game. As I've grown as a player...helping noobs becomes an intergral part of the long term growth of any game. I will say that DF1 was a bug ridden, macro using, bloodwall enhanced lunatics. I personally left DF not because of any of that stuff. I left bc of the combat. The meta game of creating alts to empty out other clanbanks...logging into their vent/TS channels to spy on them before a war....same stuff goes on in EvE is what makes it great.My play I feel is reflective of people that have been playing PvP games for a long time. If I was a 16 y/o that would teabag your corpse in BF3 after killing you...I would imagine that I would shit talk in local or dance around after I killed you in DF. I wouldn't help you, I would ridicule you and tell you how much you suck. That type of behavior isn't what makes the game. Pick yourself and learn from it. I have been beaten many times by those type of players. Did I rage quit and type in caps that they should burn in hell? Nope, I said..."hey thanks for the ass beating...good fight." Or.."next time I'll bring something that doesn't have a mining laser mounted on it."Then again..maybe that's just me. I was killed many times as a newb EvE player by much more experienced PvP'ers and they either were indifferent or helpful. A lot of the elder players either didn't give a shit enough about killing you..or they would help you. I guess to directly respond to your question is...learning how to lose takes practice. I didn't learn what the difference between falloff and optimal range in one pvp encounter. It took me getting my ass kicked a bit, plus asking questions and actively seeking out ways to improve my skill as a PLAYER not what my in game skills or whatever.Once I wrapped my head around that, I never undocked the same way again.
That's great. But what you've basically described is how much you enjoy pvp in Eve.
Here's what I think. It doesn't make people better players. It weeds out the people who want to participate in OW PvP from the people who don't. The people who want to participate learn the rules of the game, and then follow them. This isn't any different from a PvE game. The game's mechanics weeds out the people who want to participate in e.g. End Game Raiding, from the people who don't. The player then learns the rules and then follows them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.
I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So... keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.
Not sure who is a minority in terms of numbers. I think it is more complex than that. Many people enjoy PVP - or would enjoy it if it was properly implemented - but don't want to see it overwhelming the rest of the game. The "hard core" have a very specific definition of "real" PVP and that is open-world, full loot, preferably with the ability to send taunts and tells to the opponents/victims.
This "hard core PVP" playstyle really works best in the FPS style games like Counterstrike. Those games are 100 percent about shooting someone in the face. But an MMORPG has people playing for all sorts of reasons. And whether the "hard core" consider those to be "carebear" reasons or not, they are legitimate for those players - it is what they enjoy (e.g. crafting, roleplay events, questing). Many roleplayers in fact welcome appropriate PVP since real roleplay is tough without it. What is "appropriate" is where the sides start to divide. Those are the decisions the game designers need to make.
But here is the crux of it. Unlike all the other playstyles, e.g. crafting, open world PVP is unique in that it IS "imposed." And for a significant part of the "hard core" PVP community that is what is most important. They get to exert power and control over others. It has to be handled differently for that reason.
Note: I have experienced a lot of PVP in MMO, all the way back to pre-Trammel UO and through two years of Shadowbane. I once thought like the "hard core" did. But over time I came to see how placing priority on one type of activity - PVP - tended to make game worlds less interesting and game populations less diverse. So yes to PVP, but it needs to be placed in a context where it does not overwhelm the rest of the game.
An EVE-style hybrid sounds good to me. If they make the world as vast as they say, there should be plenty of room for everyone, including those who want the zero sec experience.
I have to go with this post and add the below, most people know i'm pretty much a PvE player, I don't do PVP too much and I usually steer clear of it or if you didn't, you do now. Now while ganking is a major issue with PvP games and i feel it's what keeps most of us "not hard core PvPers" out it's more because like the poster above stated its the rules were not properly implemented to curb repetitive ganking.
When I start a game I naturally want to learn the game mechanics first before ending up in said PVP environment. Because frankly to PvP you need to understand how the game works if you are going to go up against anyone other then another newbie who equally doesn't understand the game, what does and does not work and what is the correct build for your playstyle, you are just going to get killed because you don't know what you are doing, Every now and then is fine, but If you are getting killed contineously (yes it usually takes 1 or 2 players to kill you constantly when you first start) it makes it rather hard to understand how to play the game. For most people i believe they end up dying before they can even get the foundation up similar to a wrecking balls come over to destroy what they are setting up.
My experience in MO (yes i did play that game) was as such, I logged in, created a char, popped into the world. I walked around a tiny bit, then I saw another player, as i thought oh i'm a low level so i'm not worth much i'll ask him a question. That was a mistake because then I was killed instantly by him. (okay lesson learned, watch who you talk to.) I walked around to a few merchants and then tried to find something to kill, what ended up being killed was me again. As i went back to go hunting again I will killed again by another player. None of these required any skill just a matter of the luck of the draw that a higher level didn't see me. Luck based things like this aren't fun, they are annoying when i'm trying to learn the game.
The three games I feel did open world PvP (okay Allods isn't open world pvp but it states my point) the best were in order of best to worst: Age of Wushu, EvE, Allods online, and i'll explain why for each.
Age of Wushu, this had open world PvP you can be attacked in towns, out in the wilderness and even in clan schools, even by your own clan. What stopped this from being a kill everyone all the time was the rage system, it basically meant that after a while you could be attacked at no risk to anyone else. You basically become a bullseye for another player, so there was a system in place that discourage going nuts and kept it in check.
EvE: While you can attack in higher sect areas, you are taking a huge risk for very little reward so you aren't going to see this happen too often, if you wanted to PvP you could but usually that meant staying in lower level sects or risking being killed by the "law enforcement" of that game
Allods Online: This started out as a PvE game but then turned into a PvP game as you progressed so it allowed you to get a foothold and understand your class so you're actually able to fight and stand a chance of killing the other side.
I have no problems, repeat no problems playing a open world PvP game, I just like to stand a chance of beating the other guy in a fight and i also want a chance to understand the game before being thrusted head first into the meat of it.
The other biggest problem is that PvP games such as FFA open world PVP games play different then games with PvP but also tend to PvE, allow me to provide an example:
In a PvE game with PvP you can opt into a PvP game and get your PvP thing going on, you can hang out there (in some cases even progress, you can eve get equipment) but it never directly interferes with said PvE progress and sometimes even compliments it by giving buffs to PvE people thus encouraging them to partake in your PvP goodness along with you (Aika for example)
In a PvP game however the PvEer IS forced to partake in the PvP even if they don't want to, because sometimes while they are doing their PvE thing the PvP will pop up at random. In FFA system this actually works against the PvEers feeling of progression, they actually lose progress (Most PvEers i know hate losing progress)
So what i'm saying is in one type the PvP watches on the side lines and waits for a PvP type to come play with them or plays along with the PvE.
Where as in the other the PvP stands in front of the PvEer and blocks them from getting to the PvE guy behind him.
One attempts to block a particular type of playstyle while the other does not, unless like stated above there are rules to keep this from happening all the time. You can imagine how annoying it is when you can't get to the play style you want because something else is blocking it, hear it all the time by the way a good example is: why do i have to do all these quests and kill this stuff when all i want to do is fight other players, they should allow you to PvP from level 1. Fortuantly though you can eventually by pass it, whereas in the PvEers situation they are usually stuck with having to deal with said PvP person even if they dont' want to right now, and by deal i mean get killed by them (not actually fight them)
The myths are just arguments this IMO is the main reason most don't do well,it's the rule applied to the game, and not the periodical ganking or whatever else might be a thought up reason for why we PvEers don't like PvP, we just don't like PvP all the time where we can't stop it even prior to learning the game. Apply rules so that there can be Open PvP even FFA if you wish but also some order as well and you'll see more of us in your game. Noone likes getting killed by a KOS level 110 dragon as they walk out of the starter town trying to kill a level 1 rat, no matter how impressive it is.
I'm sure there is more I can say but i've gone on far too long as it is.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The "Myths" aren't myths. This game doesn't exist as there is little demand for it. Those who long for such are game are typically douches, that run with groups of douches, that flee at the shadow of a passing man, they live to grief. You can NOT have a game that is centered around empowering douches to behave like douches. I always play on "PVP" servers and I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence to disprove your thesis. The type of people drawn by "full PvP" tend to be jerks, and they do jerky things that makes the game UN-FUN for "normal people" (those with jobs, sans parents basements), because there is typically something "wrong" with them. The last thing "those people" need is an empowerment fantasy where they can torment "normal people". They are the type of people who exploit, hack and cheat. They are a bad customer base as they drive off "normal people", with their doucheness.
You have dispelled nothing, your arguments are weak, there is very little evidence to support any of your arguments.
Remember Cedric's awful wife in The Wire ? "You cannot lose if you do not play" Most choose not to pick the game up and you cannot convince people to enjoy something they inherently avoid.
Losing to a real player is much more worse than to an AI and especially when that person killing you is stacking the deck in their favor by attacking you while you are hurt or mining or some such thing or bring three people to kill you while you are by your lone self.
Power to those who enjoy these games but do not expect us to buy or play these games as a favor because there is not enough interest in it for an AAA game developer to help you achieve your goals. The FFA PvP crowd eat their young they need to learn to nurture the games and developers they have to get more interest.
The games these days are being developed for a fast buck and the decline in this genre has to do with greed rather than just PvE games although more games should be developed to cater to PvP just for variety. Lineage was good I thought ,why don't most of you support that game.
The issue isn't that people can't learn to deal with gankers, or that newbies don't have a chance, or whatever, the issue is that a lot of people jsut really have 0 care for that entire paradigm, and they do not want to play games that are as heavily PvP dominated. Especially since most of these games seem to be a Game of Thrones simulator. Why can't you make a game where PvP is rare and gravely punished, like in the civilized world? Or why not make a game that simulates a society that doesn't even exist? What the hell is up with all this "grit", you don't have enough with the news?
Many people play a game to get away from grittiness not get into it, and your dog-eat-dog worlds are bland and boring to them.
Then why is LoL the most played Video Game in the world right now?
LoL is fun I play it but it is not the same as an MMORPG . Same with Unreal Tournament and Doom and stuff those are different games and while people may play them it does not mean they will play a FFA PvP game. Goals in MMORPG are different. Character building in MMORPG is very different and socializing too . I play LoL with random people and each time I play I build my gear up.They also match you up with like people in LoL which does not happen in open PvP.
The "Myths" aren't myths. This game doesn't exist as there is little demand for it. Those who long for such are game are typically douches, that run with groups of douches, that flee at the shadow of a passing man, they live to grief. You can NOT have a game that is centered around empowering douches to behave like douches. I always play on "PVP" servers and I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence to disprove your thesis. The type of people drawn by "full PvP" tend to be jerks, and they do jerky things that makes the game UN-FUN for "normal people" (those with jobs, sans parents basements), because there is typically something "wrong" with them. The last thing "those people" need is an empowerment fantasy where they can torment "normal people". They are the type of people who exploit, hack and cheat. They are a bad customer base as they drive off "normal people", with their doucheness.
You have dispelled nothing, your arguments are weak, there is very little evidence to support any of your arguments.
His arguments are fine. However, all you've done is call other people "douches" and some other funny things. I'm so glad people like you aren't playing the same game I play.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
Good post. I laughed at the "League of Legends is a PvP only game" part though, did you forget what people do the first 20 minutes of every single game? Or the 6 main objectives on the map?
Well bias thread is bias without any real dispelling of Myths or making actual facts or points... not to mention many of them can be turned the opposite way just as easily "Why not PvP if a game is being built for PvP" point can be twisted just as easily the other way, and in fact IS DONE a lot of times.
In short: Pointless post with no real "Myth dispelling" or anything of real value. Heck, literally look at your first point, really read it, and tell me it doesn't sound pointless and does anything worth wild towards your argument.
1. You just want to grief me.
This is the self-centered argument of someone who was scarred for life in Ultima Online a decade ago and can’t move on. We actually don’t care if you play the game. In fact, if you dislike full PVP then we hope you don’t play
Seriously, read what you wrote there. Or if it still doesn't register in your mind, let me use it for something that I'm sure you wouldn't argue with but your logic is stating here.
1. The world isn't Flat, it is round.
* This is a ridiculous notion for those who feel the need to use sheer imagination thinking that reading a book makes something a fact. You are simply scared that traveling around the world won't cause you to fall of the edge and if you don't think the world is round it will somehow stop that. We don't really have any care if you think this. Go ahead and think so, we dare you to travel despite not knowing better and thinking the earth is round.
Comments
I would say that was a positive. Would you not? Look at it like this. You know not to stick your finger in a light socket because of two reasons. One, you did it as a child and it shocked the crap out of you...or Two...you tried to do it and someone smacked your hand.
Both lessons were imprinted with pain. I don't stick my fingers in light sockets even now. It was a life lesson that has stood the test of time.
In the light socket lesson, the player would learn to not play the game. Which is fine, everyone should exercise their ability to learn and to choose.
But again, what changes in a player when they are killed by a more powerful player, or group of players? The only thing that can change is that they conform to the rules of the game. In other words, they attain a higher power level, they do not attack players that might beat them, and most of all, they do not run around alone. No other set of tactics make sense when the goal is to win. Using this set of tactics they don't have to improve their personal skills very much. Is that what makes them better players?
You've noted how you play, but not how the fairly common scenario of a new player being beaten by an older player or by groups of players makes them better players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Who's demanding anything? I'm just dispelling myths about what myself and others like me want in a future MMO. The text in yellow is myth #1 in action:
1. You just want to grief me.
I love you guys. I think it's really a vocal minority of gamers who read this thread and are unwilling to see it for what it is: What a group of gamers want from a future game - not what they want to impose on the rest of the world.
I don't care if 90 per cent of triple-A MMOs are designed for someone else. I want some that are designed for me and people like me. And the list of myths are here to stop people from constantly regurgitating the same reasons why no one should give us the time of day: "You're just a griefer", "you're just a minority market", "the solution is simple: just let people flag when they want PVP or make a PVP server". These responses totally misunderstand what kind of game we're hoping for. So... keep quoting "dispelling the myths" whenever people try to use them at you.
Edit: SOME of the responses, including ones I don't agree with, have been polite and well reasoned. Others have been really hostile and perhaps trolling. For the legit ones, sorry I haven't responded but this thread really took off and I am having a hard time keeping up.
So eloquently put...
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I don't know if I can make it anymore clear. I play FFA PvP games because the game GIVES ME the MECHANIC to seek my own justice. Would you like another example? I was flying through Minmatar space when a buddy of mine says there's a guy that jumped him low sec a few days ago in local.
I stop what I'm doing, load a domi with 6 LG Smartbombs and go off to meet him. We follow this dude out of the station to the gate...he jumps/we jump. As soon as he shows up, my buddy starts warp scram'ing him..but he's in a t1 frig and the guy is in a HAC (t2 cruiser). The guy starts talking smack in local, when I warp to them and start jacking him up with smartbombs...needless to say he wasn't happy.
My buddy scoops up all the goods, the guy is crying a river and i'm laughing bc I have a domi BPO and can print domi's out like bunny rabbits.
The point being...PvP is a tool. It's a mindset. If a player looks at it like it's only for ganking/horrible/mean activity..they shouldn't play that game.
As I've grown as a player...helping noobs becomes an intergral part of the long term growth of any game. I will say that DF1 was a bug ridden, macro using, bloodwall enhanced lunatics. I personally left DF not because of any of that stuff. I left bc of the combat. The meta game of creating alts to empty out other clanbanks...logging into their vent/TS channels to spy on them before a war....same stuff goes on in EvE is what makes it great.
My play I feel is reflective of people that have been playing PvP games for a long time. If I was a 16 y/o that would teabag your corpse in BF3 after killing you...I would imagine that I would shit talk in local or dance around after I killed you in DF. I wouldn't help you, I would ridicule you and tell you how much you suck.
That type of behavior isn't what makes the game. Pick yourself and learn from it. I have been beaten many times by those type of players. Did I rage quit and type in caps that they should burn in hell? Nope, I said..."hey thanks for the ass beating...good fight." Or.."next time I'll bring something that doesn't have a mining laser mounted on it."
Then again..maybe that's just me. I was killed many times as a newb EvE player by much more experienced PvP'ers and they either were indifferent or helpful. A lot of the elder players either didn't give a shit enough about killing you..or they would help you.
I guess to directly respond to your question is...learning how to lose takes practice. I didn't learn what the difference between falloff and optimal range in one pvp encounter. It took me getting my ass kicked a bit, plus asking questions and actively seeking out ways to improve my skill as a PLAYER not what my in game skills or whatever.
Once I wrapped my head around that, I never undocked the same way again.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Not sure who is a minority in terms of numbers. I think it is more complex than that. Many people enjoy PVP - or would enjoy it if it was properly implemented - but don't want to see it overwhelming the rest of the game. The "hard core" have a very specific definition of "real" PVP and that is open-world, full loot, preferably with the ability to send taunts and tells to the opponents/victims.
This "hard core PVP" playstyle really works best in the FPS style games like Counterstrike. Those games are 100 percent about shooting someone in the face. But an MMORPG has people playing for all sorts of reasons. And whether the "hard core" consider those to be "carebear" reasons or not, they are legitimate for those players - it is what they enjoy (e.g. crafting, roleplay events, questing). Many roleplayers in fact welcome appropriate PVP since real roleplay is tough without it. What is "appropriate" is where the sides start to divide. Those are the decisions the game designers need to make.
But here is the crux of it. Unlike all the other playstyles, e.g. crafting, open world PVP is unique in that it IS "imposed." And for a significant part of the "hard core" PVP community that is what is most important. They get to exert power and control over others. It has to be handled differently for that reason.
Note: I have experienced a lot of PVP in MMO, all the way back to pre-Trammel UO and through two years of Shadowbane. I once thought like the "hard core" did. But over time I came to see how placing priority on one type of activity - PVP - tended to make game worlds less interesting and game populations less diverse. So yes to PVP, but it needs to be placed in a context where it does not overwhelm the rest of the game.
An EVE-style hybrid sounds good to me. If they make the world as vast as they say, there should be plenty of room for everyone, including those who want the zero sec experience.
So basically you fight violence with violence. That's great, and that's what EVE was made for. That's the point. A lot of people have deep loathing for the entire freaking mentality you just described, from the "how dare" attitudes to this tough guy PvPer you're so cool adapting the "right attitude" for a video game. But even you, what did you use, you used a ship you could replace, you do things that are easy, you do not do what is hard. But there are those of us who are the opposite. We don't want easy. We want a fair fight, a challenge, and we're not afraid to take risks for giggles. We don't play these games because they are all about cowardly tactics by rare exception. Risk-reward, kid me not, no "remove all risk, then I'll go after the reward, maybe" is the attitude of most EVE players.
Like that other poster said, bootcamp with kids in charge. Problem is, the tool you describe only works for the likes of the guy who went after, and the likes of yourself (you're basically the same). For the rest, it doesn't work at all. It's easy to shoot at people when you have a big ship and lots of friends, but what's far more difficult to do in EVE is change mentalities.
How many nullsec alliances are NRDS?
How often can people group with other people they don't know without danger of getting screwed over somehow?
How many scams are there in EVE?
How many people will shoot at you in lowsec for giggles?
That is the result of open, uncontrolled PvP. For a lot of people, these other things matter, obviously for you they don't, but people really don't get anywhere far if they are just busy shooting at each other and never do anything else. And that's what PvEers are - they do other things. Like, you know, building shit, trying to preserve something. Those who can, do, those who can't, bully.
You can argue "it's just a video game" but then you should have stopped your whole tirade before you started patting yourself on the back about how tough you are and how you learned something.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
As usual you're wrong... and arrogant at the same time. Well done!
Nobody is talking about forcing anything onto anybody. OW PvP is simply something we want built into a game. It's not a game you HAVE to play. Are we not allowed to even WANT a certain kind of game? If you advocate for a non-pvp game, are you forcing me to only pve and never pvp?
Why on earth would anybody compromise in what they want out of a game? Is there a maximum amount of games that can be made? How about this: you can have whatever game you want, and I can have whatever game I want. You're trying to make it to be an insult that we don't want to compromise, but I take it as a compliment. We're principled and we know what we want. If anything, it makes me even more convinced that ours is the better, deeper type of game.... because we're willing to fight for it.
Except our (the pvp crowd) primary desire is to have a game with consequences and risk/reward... not just that we want a good fight. If it was just about the fighting, we'd play a non-mmorpg pvp game like sc2 or q3 or something.
Really? I patted myself on the back at how i'm a tough guy in a video game? I thought I was providing an explanation as to how to use the provided tools the game designer gave me? I had a big ship and lots of friends? Yes I had a t1 battleship. It was a disposable ship. It was destroyed in the process. I lost my ship too.
The tone of your response tells me you seem to be personally offended by what I'm writing. Maybe you just didn't read all of the responses in this same thread from me. Is it wrong for me to be happy that I learned something, instead of letting it ruin my time in the game? You say you want a "fair fight, a challenge and not afraid to take risks for giggles"? I applaud you for seeking out a fair fight. I have found that is never the case. The closet to a fair fight would be RvB or Red v Blue or the Alliance tournament. Fair fights don't really happen to often. I think I have covered that before.
On to more fun stuff...how many alliances are NRDS? All the good ones. There was only one that I can remember that wasn't..and they are long gone...CVA. They were a RP alliance. NRDS is how you keep out the rift raff. You want to hang out in my corp/alliances space? Either join or pay a fee. All those stations, POS's, jump bridges, etc aren't free. You want in, you pay rent like everyone else.
How many times can you group with random people and possibly get screwed over? I would say the chances are high. I would never group with someone I don't know. Again, fostering relationships with people is one of the reasons I play MMORPGs to begin with. If I wanted to group with people I didn't know and fight, I would play BF3.
How many scams are in EvE? Well, tbh, I have met many, many players that cite this http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/12/biggest-eve-online-scam-ever-recorded-nets-over-a-trillion-isk/
as one of the main reasons they came to the game. I personally was more of a fan of the GHSC and the patience it took to pull it off. Scams are a part of it. Have you ever got an email from someone you don't know with an attachement? Did you open it? Scams are happening all over. I personally think it's hilarious. Scamming people is a science for some. I remind myself, it's a game after all.
How many people will shoot you in low sec for giggles? Um probably most of them. I firmly believe that lo sec is where the real pvp school lessons should be learned. If I FC'd, I didn't bring my guys into other 0.0, I brought them to lo sec. Lo sec is the true wild areas to me. I loved it. There were more care bears in 0.0 than in hi sec even. Again, does that sound arrogant? Does that sound like I'm trying to wave my awesome e-peen around? I can assure you I'm not.
To be honest, you're last statement was the worst. You are assuming that bc I like OWPvP, I don't like to build things? I don't like to maintain peaceful relations with others? And because of this, I'm a bully?
Wow. Just wow. I actually really enjoyed the dynamics of EvE's industrial side. Hell, when I first started to play EvE, I thought that was the route I would take. I never lost my desire to build, to gather RP's and turn them in for mats, to queue up stuff and research BPO's/make BPC's. I still to this day have a ton of that info saved into tidy files like simple/complex reactions, etc.
You are assuming that bc someone likes a game that allows you to CONTROL the space the live in, that makes them a bully? It does? I think my definition and yours for a bully are much different.
I guess at the end of the day, we have to agree to disagree. If I sound arrogant, I apologize. I could say the same about you, but it would seem that you are just passionate about your stance.
I also remember that this is a video game we are talking about, nothing more.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
open world pvp games don't necessarily have to go with full loot.
I personally prefer it though because I like to do a lot of crafting, gathering, and market stuff on top of pvp/pve play. The more diverse the game is the more I enjoy it quite often. There are great ways to build a game without a full loot mechanic though, but I enjoy the way the mechanic can blend well with a healthy economy and crafting system.
Mostly, I don't like any sort of end game gear or gear treadmill and a full loot pvp game with the type of design I enjoy ensures I am not expected to grind or save up for any particular best in slot gear. For some reason once I have a character with great gear that I know they'll never lose I lose all desire to play because I feel like my wealth has been amassed and I have nothing left to gain.
If someone can take that gear away from me then I know I am never truly done amassing wealth because it can all be lost eventually. There is always a goal to work towards.
Its certainly not the only way to build a game though, especially with the current player climate what it is with so many players being gear-centric these days and enjoying having gear that will last forever. its just not me.
And of course, as Holophoner says, the added thrill of having something on the line!
So they don't have to go together, but as with so many things.. some of us just wont play a game that is without it just like some of you guys won't play a game that has this sort of thing.
@CactusJack
I brought up all the points that are the kind of things I'd want to achieve.
You basically told me they're impossible.
There's why I do not like FFA PvP. It makes people scared, selfish, paranoid, and violent. I know if I were to get a piece of nullsec space, I'd be hard to keep it NRDS. But that's a goal I could look forward to. Make a block of space with safety levels of high sec where people can do their non-PvP activities. It's technically possible. But in actuality, because of the attitudes of the EVE community, it'd require me to probably kill the rest of the entire EVE universe to make it possible. And that's why that game is so limiting. It's not real world, it's a small subset of real world people who like PvP dominated games. You can't work with them. All they want is pew-pew and destroy.
For the people who liked that scam millions stayed the fuck away from the game. That's the thing about EVE, it's fun to read about, but generally, it's really not that exciting to play.
And, yes, you sounded extremely arrogant with your Domi story. It's one thing to tell of something fun, it's another to act like it was some life achievement and that a person has to learn or adapt to the PvP world. You have to realize that you adapt because you like it, just like raiders theorycraft for raids because they like it, and RPers learn roleplaying because they liked it. So it's worthless. Your "this is how you regard the game correctly" is worthless. It's like telling you you should go RP and then calling you unimaginative if you are having trouble with it and don't really want it. And that's the boat many PvEers are in. That's it. It has nothing to do with peoples' lack of toughness or inability to adapt to a game or something. Cut it with that crap already, Jesus.
It's like every time someone complains about a feature in EVE some tough guy has to show up and talk about he "learned" something and "mastered" himself to get better at the game. No, sometimes we just don't like a feature and we think it's shitty, and we don't want to stomach it, adapt to it, or toughen up towards it.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Ok then. You still sound really angry. I'm not on these forums to make enemies. I'm just expressing my views like you. Good luck in whatever it is you seek.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I will just make a quick reply to the OP´s myth #1
This is not a myth... It is a fact proven over and over again. On average in FFA PvP people will go for the "secure" win, this most of the time equals taking out a weaker opponent. Now most of the time the difference between player a and b is small enough to let skill still be a factor. But this does not negate the fact that grinding and "stomping" is a problem. Especially when the game have some time on the tooth and you have a "upper crust" that see them self as entiteld to stomp on less skilled players in order "to help them get better"
So while i can agree that the PvP community as a whole get a very bad rep due to a smaller subset of people.. It does not make said subset go away just because you close your eyes and say "i do not see you". Said subset also tend to cause a disproportional amount of stress on the less active part of the community (the usually LARGER part of the community) leading to them either quitting or retaliating. This in turn steps the conflict up and more people suffer.
But as for dispelling myths OP i give you a weak 2 at best...
This have been a good conversation
That's great. But what you've basically described is how much you enjoy pvp in Eve.
Here's what I think. It doesn't make people better players. It weeds out the people who want to participate in OW PvP from the people who don't. The people who want to participate learn the rules of the game, and then follow them. This isn't any different from a PvE game. The game's mechanics weeds out the people who want to participate in e.g. End Game Raiding, from the people who don't. The player then learns the rules and then follows them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have to go with this post and add the below, most people know i'm pretty much a PvE player, I don't do PVP too much and I usually steer clear of it or if you didn't, you do now. Now while ganking is a major issue with PvP games and i feel it's what keeps most of us "not hard core PvPers" out it's more because like the poster above stated its the rules were not properly implemented to curb repetitive ganking.
When I start a game I naturally want to learn the game mechanics first before ending up in said PVP environment. Because frankly to PvP you need to understand how the game works if you are going to go up against anyone other then another newbie who equally doesn't understand the game, what does and does not work and what is the correct build for your playstyle, you are just going to get killed because you don't know what you are doing, Every now and then is fine, but If you are getting killed contineously (yes it usually takes 1 or 2 players to kill you constantly when you first start) it makes it rather hard to understand how to play the game. For most people i believe they end up dying before they can even get the foundation up similar to a wrecking balls come over to destroy what they are setting up.
My experience in MO (yes i did play that game) was as such, I logged in, created a char, popped into the world. I walked around a tiny bit, then I saw another player, as i thought oh i'm a low level so i'm not worth much i'll ask him a question. That was a mistake because then I was killed instantly by him. (okay lesson learned, watch who you talk to.) I walked around to a few merchants and then tried to find something to kill, what ended up being killed was me again. As i went back to go hunting again I will killed again by another player. None of these required any skill just a matter of the luck of the draw that a higher level didn't see me. Luck based things like this aren't fun, they are annoying when i'm trying to learn the game.
The three games I feel did open world PvP (okay Allods isn't open world pvp but it states my point) the best were in order of best to worst: Age of Wushu, EvE, Allods online, and i'll explain why for each.
Age of Wushu, this had open world PvP you can be attacked in towns, out in the wilderness and even in clan schools, even by your own clan. What stopped this from being a kill everyone all the time was the rage system, it basically meant that after a while you could be attacked at no risk to anyone else. You basically become a bullseye for another player, so there was a system in place that discourage going nuts and kept it in check.
EvE: While you can attack in higher sect areas, you are taking a huge risk for very little reward so you aren't going to see this happen too often, if you wanted to PvP you could but usually that meant staying in lower level sects or risking being killed by the "law enforcement" of that game
Allods Online: This started out as a PvE game but then turned into a PvP game as you progressed so it allowed you to get a foothold and understand your class so you're actually able to fight and stand a chance of killing the other side.
I have no problems, repeat no problems playing a open world PvP game, I just like to stand a chance of beating the other guy in a fight and i also want a chance to understand the game before being thrusted head first into the meat of it.
The other biggest problem is that PvP games such as FFA open world PVP games play different then games with PvP but also tend to PvE, allow me to provide an example:
In a PvE game with PvP you can opt into a PvP game and get your PvP thing going on, you can hang out there (in some cases even progress, you can eve get equipment) but it never directly interferes with said PvE progress and sometimes even compliments it by giving buffs to PvE people thus encouraging them to partake in your PvP goodness along with you (Aika for example)
In a PvP game however the PvEer IS forced to partake in the PvP even if they don't want to, because sometimes while they are doing their PvE thing the PvP will pop up at random. In FFA system this actually works against the PvEers feeling of progression, they actually lose progress (Most PvEers i know hate losing progress)
So what i'm saying is in one type the PvP watches on the side lines and waits for a PvP type to come play with them or plays along with the PvE.
Where as in the other the PvP stands in front of the PvEer and blocks them from getting to the PvE guy behind him.
One attempts to block a particular type of playstyle while the other does not, unless like stated above there are rules to keep this from happening all the time. You can imagine how annoying it is when you can't get to the play style you want because something else is blocking it, hear it all the time by the way a good example is: why do i have to do all these quests and kill this stuff when all i want to do is fight other players, they should allow you to PvP from level 1. Fortuantly though you can eventually by pass it, whereas in the PvEers situation they are usually stuck with having to deal with said PvP person even if they dont' want to right now, and by deal i mean get killed by them (not actually fight them)
The myths are just arguments this IMO is the main reason most don't do well,it's the rule applied to the game, and not the periodical ganking or whatever else might be a thought up reason for why we PvEers don't like PvP, we just don't like PvP all the time where we can't stop it even prior to learning the game. Apply rules so that there can be Open PvP even FFA if you wish but also some order as well and you'll see more of us in your game. Noone likes getting killed by a KOS level 110 dragon as they walk out of the starter town trying to kill a level 1 rat, no matter how impressive it is.
I'm sure there is more I can say but i've gone on far too long as it is.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The "Myths" aren't myths. This game doesn't exist as there is little demand for it. Those who long for such are game are typically douches, that run with groups of douches, that flee at the shadow of a passing man, they live to grief. You can NOT have a game that is centered around empowering douches to behave like douches. I always play on "PVP" servers and I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence to disprove your thesis. The type of people drawn by "full PvP" tend to be jerks, and they do jerky things that makes the game UN-FUN for "normal people" (those with jobs, sans parents basements), because there is typically something "wrong" with them. The last thing "those people" need is an empowerment fantasy where they can torment "normal people". They are the type of people who exploit, hack and cheat. They are a bad customer base as they drive off "normal people", with their doucheness.
You have dispelled nothing, your arguments are weak, there is very little evidence to support any of your arguments.
" 356 developers liked your comment"
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional".
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
next title:
There´s little demand for smart PvP embracing concepts, let´s cater to the PvE-exclusive crowd and keep everything "optional"
Look at WOW awesome success!!!
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clap clap clap got yourself your dying MMO market and F2P left and right - shoo shmart
Remember Cedric's awful wife in The Wire ? "You cannot lose if you do not play" Most choose not to pick the game up and you cannot convince people to enjoy something they inherently avoid.
Losing to a real player is much more worse than to an AI and especially when that person killing you is stacking the deck in their favor by attacking you while you are hurt or mining or some such thing or bring three people to kill you while you are by your lone self.
Power to those who enjoy these games but do not expect us to buy or play these games as a favor because there is not enough interest in it for an AAA game developer to help you achieve your goals. The FFA PvP crowd eat their young they need to learn to nurture the games and developers they have to get more interest.
The games these days are being developed for a fast buck and the decline in this genre has to do with greed rather than just PvE games although more games should be developed to cater to PvP just for variety. Lineage was good I thought ,why don't most of you support that game.
Then why is LoL the most played Video Game in the world right now?
His arguments are fine. However, all you've done is call other people "douches" and some other funny things. I'm so glad people like you aren't playing the same game I play.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
Good post. I laughed at the "League of Legends is a PvP only game" part though, did you forget what people do the first 20 minutes of every single game? Or the 6 main objectives on the map?
But again, great post in general.
Well bias thread is bias without any real dispelling of Myths or making actual facts or points... not to mention many of them can be turned the opposite way just as easily "Why not PvP if a game is being built for PvP" point can be twisted just as easily the other way, and in fact IS DONE a lot of times.
In short: Pointless post with no real "Myth dispelling" or anything of real value. Heck, literally look at your first point, really read it, and tell me it doesn't sound pointless and does anything worth wild towards your argument.
1. You just want to grief me.
The most valueable thing I learned some folks are most scared about:
"OMG there might be a triple-A MMO coming which is NOT catering to my carebear needs.. and....... what if it´s succesful?"
Years and years of vocal minority pretending to be majority might be lost!