Most replies sound like frustrated gibberish so far, no offense.
WHy do people actually argue about this? It's like saying you hate football and then go out in the field and complain someone hit you with the ball in the face. Debating about this why this style of gaming (full pvp) is bad because people shouldn't force you to play this way is exactly forcing others to play a game your way (with no pvp) - ironic isn't it?. Exactly what gives you entitlement to tell people they can't have PVP everywhere? If I dislike racing and FPS games (and I do) why would I care about other people playing them? I honestly don't.
Can someone please explain me why do people insist on playing something repeatedly and say they hate it? That I know, FFA PVP games aren't breaking any legal laws, are they? Rest assured, even if a few FFA PVP games are released here and there, the carebear population will still have 99.5% of the gaming industry to choose from.
You are totally wrong,there is not a one single game that pve'ers can play wothout the constantly whining pvp'ers mostly about why other classes are not nerfed so they can play in god-mode and whay they cant kill that poor guy who was gathering herbs in the Woods.
Most replies sound like frustrated gibberish so far, no offense.
WHy do people actually argue about this? It's like saying you hate football and then go out in the field and complain someone hit you with the ball. Debating about this why this style of gaming (full pvp) is bad because people shouldn't force you to play this way is exactly forcing others to play a game your way (with no pvp). Exactly what gives you entitlement to tell people they can't have PVP everywhere? If I dislike racing games why would I care about other people playing them?
Can someone please explain me why do people insist on playing something repeatedly and say they hate it? That I know, FFA PVP games aren't breaking any legal laws, are they?
Its not that.
Basically what it is is 2 camps saying it has to be either A or Z and cannot be anything in between.
Example;
Some PvEers want A:) No PvP What so ever.
Some PvPers want B:) FFA/OW PvP with no choice to avoid it.
And you have pretty much everyone else who would rather have both but with choice/options (PvP On/Off Switch, Server Rules, etc). These people are being told it has to be B or nothing at all. Others are saying 'A or no way"... And all this is not based on a game this has already stated it will be a specific type of game (PvP or PvE) but rather off the fact that the game does not have any set direction that is known to ANYONE on these forums. Its a lot of people throwing their weight around with so called facts/myths to prove their points. Others are here playing the part of the UN and suggesting compromises and getting shot at for doing so.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I would like to add that "flagging" for PvP was an abject failure in Pirates of the Burning Sea. Hi Sec in EvE is no more safe than anywhere else. I have lost more in hi sec than i ever did in 0.0. It seems we can never actually decide what a good PvP mechanic is. I also don't subscribe to the "1v1" or "consenting parties" argument.
I can count on one hand how many times i had a non consential, completely random 1v1 encounter in EvE. EvE as with any other open PvP game doesn't work like that. In DF1, it was the same. I think people that don't want PvP in their game have to ask themselves this question..."If some jack hole ganks me, what can I do about it?"
If your response is.."I'm outta here, this isn't fair", then my next question to them would be.."how can you within the game mechanics, either prevent this from happening again or what can you do about it?" If the person is so butthurt over it, you don't have the stomach for open world PvP to start with.
I used to teach PvP in EvE and this was the case with some new people. Gratefully, most of them could see why this wasn't the game for them. PvP for me was never about fairness. It was a means to an ends. If we were at war with you, then you knew NO MATTER where you were...you were a target.
I didn't need your loot, I didn't need your killboard stats, I didn't need to make my e-peen bigger. I was destroying war targets. If i gate camped my entry into 0.0 and you flew in without a scout or friends...you learned not to do that anymore. It had nothing to do with feelings or personal reasons.
I will admit to enjoying killing some peeps more than others...but I'm sure others felt the same about me.
In closing, if i choose to play a FFA PvP game...I know what to expect. I don't feel like I'm a superior gamer to someone that enjoys PvE only, nor do I feel bad for them when they die. If you don't like a game, quit. It isn't a popularity contest. It's a game for goodness sake.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
I could make the same argument about WoW, or any other sucessful game. As long as there are people complaining in this forum, it's clearly because those games suck, otherwise they should never need to play another game in their life. ??
And why would having another mmorpg with ffa pvp affect you? Do people playing EvE make a difference in your games? I don't think so. Nobody is forcing the ideas of superiority in either kind of game, and people have the right to talk about a game they would like to have, do they not?
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
I could make the same argument about WoW, or any other sucessful game. As long as there are people complaining in this forum, it's clearly because those games suck, otherwise they should never need to play another game in their life. ??
And why would having another mmorpg with ffa pvp affect you? Do people playing EvE make a difference in your games? I don't think so. Nobody is forcing the ideas of superiority in either kind of game, and people have the right to talk about a game they would like to have, do they not?
I'm speaking more to the character of the person who wants to do open FFA pvp in an MMORPG. I'd be willing to bet 90%+ of engagements in open PvP someone has a huge advantage and someone has an equally crushing disadvantage, whether it be stealth , just CC off the bat before the other person can react, or sheer number advantage(see eve). This isn't PvP. This isn't meaningful in any way. Hence why they want an MMORPG to pvp in and not the other mentioned genres, because they don't want to fight people where the odds are not stacked in their favor. I know because I was one of those people when I was 15. Now if I want to actually play against other people I do, but not in an RPG.
You realize all of those elements you described are present in any kind of arts game (especially the ones of the likes of dota, lol, WOTetc). PvP is non consensual there (you start the game up agreeing you will undertake PVP, same way as EvE for example). After that, you don't complain wether you were ganked by surprise, lost gold, or undertook an underfed fight with less numbers than the opponent team, or were caught in an unfavoured position that lead to your death along with the rest of your team. Mainly because that was your fault.
And somehow, games like that (especially LoL, WOT) are a massive sucess and considered part of e-sports, despite all the 'unfairness' you assume in them. I wonder, is being able to survive in a world where everyone can attack eachother at all costs something players can enjoy doing? The horror.
The situation is exactly the same in a FFA PVP game. Nobody expects a fight to be 'fair' all the time, learning how to survive, quick reactiong and relying on others becomes a part of the game (that ffa pvp games don't have) and the thrill of having something in the stakes fuels people to play those.
Your judgement is very innacurate, and that's what I was refering to (which applies to most of this thread replies by now). Contrary to popular belief, people that want a PVP enforced game aren't psychopaths - they simply want things that can't realistically be offered in a game that does not have free PVP.
I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise. So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I am not going to go into some long diatribe about why you are wrong because you're probably not interested in reading my rebuttal anyway so all I am going to say is I disagree with every point in your post because I have 14+ years of experience that prove otherwise. So quit trying to pass your preferred and biased playstyle off on someone like me who doesn't want it.
We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.
We don't like it.
It sucks.
The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.
EVE Online
Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.
FFA does not work. It allows RMT to control the game world and yes, it will be the full time MMO community, the RMT community that will run the game.
Sorry. That's the facts.
No, those aren't facts. That is only the oppinion of someone that doesen't even know how the game he/she uses in his/her own example works, and what the term "ffa pvp" game actually means, despite saying he does. It also offers nothing substantial to the debate. You are right, though, no myths were dispelled because your head is apparently full of them still
All the people that can only quote a one liner with no real evidence and expect to be taken seriously are close to cringe worthy as well
We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.
We don't like it.
It sucks.
The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.
EVE Online
Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.
You kind of back up one of his central points, do you realize you did that?
Wipe out high security in Eve, make it all null and Eve will no longer work right?
I assume you are correct, and I think there is a good chance this is a fair assessment.
But what would also happen if we got rid of NULL and all pvp in high sec?
I feel the same thing would happen, the game wouldn't really work any longer.
Whether this is all true about Eve though or not is irrelevant for the most part.
If you can understand this, or more broadly, the concept of systems integration, you will be a lot closer to understanding why he doesn't want to play the same type of game you want to play. And perhaps from there you can understand, many of us aren't asking you to agree our favored game type is better than yours.
I always thought that if a game offered me what I enjoyed more than I didn't enjoy...it was worth my time. If I sub to a game, I do some research prior. I work for my money, and I like to spend it on things I want. All of this fighting back and forth about how PvP games are for psychopaths, there's no room on the market...blah, blah.
If you don't like a game, stop giving them money and leave. It's as if we are arguing about whether eggrolls or pizza rolls are better. Who cares, eat what you want. I don't hold to the tenet that I'm better or worse of a player or I have some delusional, psychotic mindset because I enjoy a certain type of game.
Why do we attribute real mental illness issues to gamers that like there to be risk vs actions in a virtual world? Don't play games you don't like. Why is this not clear to people?
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Eve wouldn't close down if there was no highsec. Whoever thinks Hisec is the carebear EvE is sadly mistaken. The only thing it means is that there's more consequence for engaging (as there are in any other system). It also does not affect alliance/corp wars or faction warfare meaning any of those can stil engage at any time with nothing to fear.
There are thousands of daily kills in highsec around trade hubs and peripheric zones. Most suicide gank corps have close to 99% ISK efficiency (ship value destroyed or looted / value of their ship). Hisec means is that there is a consequence for engaging, it does not disallow PVP of any means, and in fact only encourages it because less people expect it and bring more shiny ships and cargo with them.
And that falls very nicely into the "FFA PVP" system. For some reason people awe in despair thinking a game with free pvp is nothing but a gank fest. Another myth.
For some reason lots of people like to complain about games other people want. you don't like it... how about not playing?
I always thought that if a game offered me what I enjoyed more than I didn't enjoy...it was worth my time. If I sub to a game, I do some research prior. I work for my money, and I like to spend it on things I want. All of this fighting back and forth about how PvP games are for psychopaths, there's no room on the market...blah, blah.
If you don't like a game, stop giving them money and leave. It's as if we are arguing about whether eggrolls or pizza rolls are better. Who cares, eat what you want. I don't hold to the tenet that I'm better or worse of a player or I have some delusional, psychotic mindset because I enjoy a certain type of game.
Why do we attribute real mental illness issues to gamers that like there to be risk vs actions in a virtual world? Don't play games you don't like. Why is this not clear to people?
Pffft! Pizza is obviously better are you some kind of crazy!? :-)
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
/face in hands
Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game.
And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
/face in hands
I think its more the fact that people don't like having thier gameplay disrupted by people who's idea of a fun is to make sure other players don't have any.
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
/face in hands
I think its more the fact that people don't like having thier gameplay disrupted by people who's idea of a fun is to make sure other players don't have any.
This is the crux of it all.. Which I think goes back to the comment made about FFA PVP by one of the devs. "We don't support bad design" or something along those lines.
I highly doubt we'll see PVP where those who don't want to have to (after making a choice to play the game).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm guessing most of the people who are bemoan the idea of OWPVP have no friends in game who could help them in a tight spot. The Solo Crowd who have taken a genre meant to played with alot of people and turned it into a multiplayer lobby game with solo play inbetween queues.
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski I'm guessing most of the people who are bemoan the idea of OWPVP have no friends in game who could help them in a tight spot. The Solo Crowd who have taken a genre meant to played with alot of people and turned it into a multiplayer lobby game with solo play inbetween queues.
Haven't seen anyone bemoaning open world PVP, people just want the option to not PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
/face in hands
Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game.
And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all
I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.
You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.
The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".
I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.
Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski I'm guessing most of the people who are bemoan the idea of OWPVP have no friends in game who could help them in a tight spot. The Solo Crowd who have taken a genre meant to played with alot of people and turned it into a multiplayer lobby game with solo play inbetween queues.
Haven't seen anyone bemoaning open world PVP, people just want the option to not PVP.
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
Originally posted by CactusJack Originally posted by VentlusOriginally posted by killahhafter watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?/face in hands
Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game. And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.
You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.
The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".
I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.
Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.
How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
You are totally wrong,there is not a one single game that pve'ers can play wothout the constantly whining pvp'ers mostly about why other classes are not nerfed so they can play in god-mode and whay they cant kill that poor guy who was gathering herbs in the Woods.
Its not that.
Basically what it is is 2 camps saying it has to be either A or Z and cannot be anything in between.
Example;
Some PvEers want A:) No PvP What so ever.
Some PvPers want B:) FFA/OW PvP with no choice to avoid it.
And you have pretty much everyone else who would rather have both but with choice/options (PvP On/Off Switch, Server Rules, etc). These people are being told it has to be B or nothing at all. Others are saying 'A or no way"... And all this is not based on a game this has already stated it will be a specific type of game (PvP or PvE) but rather off the fact that the game does not have any set direction that is known to ANYONE on these forums. Its a lot of people throwing their weight around with so called facts/myths to prove their points. Others are here playing the part of the UN and suggesting compromises and getting shot at for doing so.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I would like to add that "flagging" for PvP was an abject failure in Pirates of the Burning Sea. Hi Sec in EvE is no more safe than anywhere else. I have lost more in hi sec than i ever did in 0.0. It seems we can never actually decide what a good PvP mechanic is. I also don't subscribe to the "1v1" or "consenting parties" argument.
I can count on one hand how many times i had a non consential, completely random 1v1 encounter in EvE. EvE as with any other open PvP game doesn't work like that. In DF1, it was the same. I think people that don't want PvP in their game have to ask themselves this question..."If some jack hole ganks me, what can I do about it?"
If your response is.."I'm outta here, this isn't fair", then my next question to them would be.."how can you within the game mechanics, either prevent this from happening again or what can you do about it?" If the person is so butthurt over it, you don't have the stomach for open world PvP to start with.
I used to teach PvP in EvE and this was the case with some new people. Gratefully, most of them could see why this wasn't the game for them. PvP for me was never about fairness. It was a means to an ends. If we were at war with you, then you knew NO MATTER where you were...you were a target.
I didn't need your loot, I didn't need your killboard stats, I didn't need to make my e-peen bigger. I was destroying war targets. If i gate camped my entry into 0.0 and you flew in without a scout or friends...you learned not to do that anymore. It had nothing to do with feelings or personal reasons.
I will admit to enjoying killing some peeps more than others...but I'm sure others felt the same about me.
In closing, if i choose to play a FFA PvP game...I know what to expect. I don't feel like I'm a superior gamer to someone that enjoys PvE only, nor do I feel bad for them when they die. If you don't like a game, quit. It isn't a popularity contest. It's a game for goodness sake.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Why do people keep posting about having an MMORPG with FFA pvp? Most of these games are based off DnD which if I can recall noone in any campaign ive ever done was pk'd. Virtually every other genre of game now is focused on you killing other people, why insist that RPG's be the same?
Go play mobas, fps, rts, fighting game... oh wait those are all much more difficult than mmorpg pvp... coincidence? think not.
If eve is so damn good at this why do people want another game to play, or why arent they just playing that?
I could make the same argument about WoW, or any other sucessful game. As long as there are people complaining in this forum, it's clearly because those games suck, otherwise they should never need to play another game in their life. ??
And why would having another mmorpg with ffa pvp affect you? Do people playing EvE make a difference in your games? I don't think so. Nobody is forcing the ideas of superiority in either kind of game, and people have the right to talk about a game they would like to have, do they not?
I'm speaking more to the character of the person who wants to do open FFA pvp in an MMORPG. I'd be willing to bet 90%+ of engagements in open PvP someone has a huge advantage and someone has an equally crushing disadvantage, whether it be stealth , just CC off the bat before the other person can react, or sheer number advantage(see eve). This isn't PvP. This isn't meaningful in any way. Hence why they want an MMORPG to pvp in and not the other mentioned genres, because they don't want to fight people where the odds are not stacked in their favor. I know because I was one of those people when I was 15. Now if I want to actually play against other people I do, but not in an RPG.
You realize all of those elements you described are present in any kind of arts game (especially the ones of the likes of dota, lol, WOTetc). PvP is non consensual there (you start the game up agreeing you will undertake PVP, same way as EvE for example). After that, you don't complain wether you were ganked by surprise, lost gold, or undertook an underfed fight with less numbers than the opponent team, or were caught in an unfavoured position that lead to your death along with the rest of your team. Mainly because that was your fault.
And somehow, games like that (especially LoL, WOT) are a massive sucess and considered part of e-sports, despite all the 'unfairness' you assume in them. I wonder, is being able to survive in a world where everyone can attack eachother at all costs something players can enjoy doing? The horror.
The situation is exactly the same in a FFA PVP game. Nobody expects a fight to be 'fair' all the time, learning how to survive, quick reactiong and relying on others becomes a part of the game (that ffa pvp games don't have) and the thrill of having something in the stakes fuels people to play those.
Your judgement is very innacurate, and that's what I was refering to (which applies to most of this thread replies by now). Contrary to popular belief, people that want a PVP enforced game aren't psychopaths - they simply want things that can't realistically be offered in a game that does not have free PVP.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
So, precisely what Myths did you dispel, OP?
We all know what FFA PvP entails. We all understand what the design is about.
We don't like it.
It sucks.
The glorious beacon of FFA PvP.
EVE Online
Wipe out Sec, make it all null. Watch CCP bankrupt in a year. You know it, I know it, they know it.
FFA does not work. It allows RMT to control the game world and yes, it will be the full time MMO community, the RMT community that will run the game.
Sorry. That's the facts.
My thoughts exactly.
No, those aren't facts. That is only the oppinion of someone that doesen't even know how the game he/she uses in his/her own example works, and what the term "ffa pvp" game actually means, despite saying he does. It also offers nothing substantial to the debate. You are right, though, no myths were dispelled because your head is apparently full of them still
All the people that can only quote a one liner with no real evidence and expect to be taken seriously are close to cringe worthy as well
You kind of back up one of his central points, do you realize you did that?
Wipe out high security in Eve, make it all null and Eve will no longer work right?
I assume you are correct, and I think there is a good chance this is a fair assessment.
But what would also happen if we got rid of NULL and all pvp in high sec?
I feel the same thing would happen, the game wouldn't really work any longer.
Whether this is all true about Eve though or not is irrelevant for the most part.
If you can understand this, or more broadly, the concept of systems integration, you will be a lot closer to understanding why he doesn't want to play the same type of game you want to play. And perhaps from there you can understand, many of us aren't asking you to agree our favored game type is better than yours.
I always thought that if a game offered me what I enjoyed more than I didn't enjoy...it was worth my time. If I sub to a game, I do some research prior. I work for my money, and I like to spend it on things I want. All of this fighting back and forth about how PvP games are for psychopaths, there's no room on the market...blah, blah.
If you don't like a game, stop giving them money and leave. It's as if we are arguing about whether eggrolls or pizza rolls are better. Who cares, eat what you want. I don't hold to the tenet that I'm better or worse of a player or I have some delusional, psychotic mindset because I enjoy a certain type of game.
Why do we attribute real mental illness issues to gamers that like there to be risk vs actions in a virtual world? Don't play games you don't like. Why is this not clear to people?
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Eve wouldn't close down if there was no highsec. Whoever thinks Hisec is the carebear EvE is sadly mistaken. The only thing it means is that there's more consequence for engaging (as there are in any other system). It also does not affect alliance/corp wars or faction warfare meaning any of those can stil engage at any time with nothing to fear.
There are thousands of daily kills in highsec around trade hubs and peripheric zones. Most suicide gank corps have close to 99% ISK efficiency (ship value destroyed or looted / value of their ship). Hisec means is that there is a consequence for engaging, it does not disallow PVP of any means, and in fact only encourages it because less people expect it and bring more shiny ships and cargo with them.
And that falls very nicely into the "FFA PVP" system. For some reason people awe in despair thinking a game with free pvp is nothing but a gank fest. Another myth.
For some reason lots of people like to complain about games other people want. you don't like it... how about not playing?
Pffft! Pizza is obviously better are you some kind of crazy!? :-)
after watching the WOW vid on this topic where the guy with 1.9 days managed to do every boss in the game without doing anything, it has occured to me that alot of the people that play mmorpg's have no clue.
no clue how to play, no clue about tactics, teamwork, community, and blind to anything that will affect them, is it their fault? nope not one bit, but that guy proved a point, the so called gamers nowdays in wow, are nothing like gamers were even 5 years ago.
no wonder most people dont like pvp, can it be that most people nowdays cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag without reading a guide on ho to do it?
/face in hands
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
Well i don't pvp to much i do when i want to. Have i played open world pvp games? yes and I found them tedious only reason. I'm all for facing someone 1v1 but getting ganked by someone far superior in gear/level isn't exactly the funniest thing in the world. Does that mean because many games now of day have taking certain aspects of communication away, people don't like pvp cause of this? no thats a pretty stupid statement to make, it could be perhaps some people like to get massive amount of people to clear content that is fun to them (myself). I am actually pretty good at pvp, I just don't like open world pvp where im forced into it. And i don't like unbalanced pvp games such as WoW's current state. In an MMO guildwars 1 was my favorite pvp game.
And for last part for WoW currently right now it is impossible to do every boss in the game without tactics/teamwork. They have released bosses only available to hardcore modes, so your required to do tactics. And also that reasoning on teamwork/tactics corelates to pvp is also bad. You can get some of the best raiders in the world and they could suck at pvp, and you can get some of the best pvp'ers in the world and they would have a hard time clearing the content consiestent raiders do. Just some people, like hardcore pvp others like a simpler approach to pvp. For my self make a pvp game where its balanced, im not forced to do it unless i want to and i will play it that is all
I think its more the fact that people don't like having thier gameplay disrupted by people who's idea of a fun is to make sure other players don't have any.
This is the crux of it all.. Which I think goes back to the comment made about FFA PVP by one of the devs. "We don't support bad design" or something along those lines.
I highly doubt we'll see PVP where those who don't want to have to (after making a choice to play the game).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Haven't seen anyone bemoaning open world PVP, people just want the option to not PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.
You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.
The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".
I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.
Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
You do have an option. Draw your weapon and defend yourself or get your corpse looted. If that sounds harsh, then get more friends. OW PvP means, if you are logged in and out in the games open world, you are consenting to PvP. It's as simple as that.
Solo play in OWPvP games is possible, but I haven't met too many long term solo players in EvE and even less in DF. It's possible to PLAY solo, but bc those companies designed the game to actually be played with other humans...sometimes people want to play with you, whether you like it or not.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I think I have heard this close to a thousand times in game. That's probably a conservative estimate. Your first statement, in red, I would like to say..what can you do to stop this from happening or what can you do different next time? If you can put aside your anger/rage from the loss...then you are becoming a better player.
Next, the green text. Are you a good PvP'er? But you don't like open world PvP when you are FORCED into it? Um, that's just full of contridictions. 1st lesson in PvP is to know when to run. If you're good at PvP in a game, then you know that. Open world PvP means anyone can attack at anytime...if you are playing a game that has that....then it wasn't forced...it means you weren't ready. Does that make sense? If I undock in a hauler in EvE or only have an axe and pickaxe in Darkfall....that means when I go out into the world....i'm saying to myself...Be ready to find a way out.
You know what happens sometimes? I lose. It wasn't bc it was 3vs1 or whatever. I just lost. I fought back..I tried to run..I ducked and dodged...I bobbed and weaved and they still got me.
The difference is I can then get some friends and we can hunt your ass down. No one is at a disadvantage when the rule of the land is..."don't undock in anything that you aren't willing to lose".
I'm not bringing friends to help me beat you, I'm bringing them for your friends. If you don't have any, then you are going to be at a numerical disadvantage.
Every FFA PvP game i've played it has always been about the PLAYER and not his toon/ship/gear/shinys. A players attitude is what allows the PvP seed take hold, not his hand to eye coordination, class choice, nothing else.
How does being killed by a player with a higher level or superior gear make someone a better player? There's no skill that can be learned to overcome the power disparity, so what exactly is happening to make the losing player a better player?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.