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Payment model - Box Sales & Subs more or less confirmed

jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member

We have OFFICIALLY heard from the devs that the game is going to be a hybrid model now.

http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/05/29/wildstar-to-have-hybrid-payment-model/

Also, recent comments by the devs suggest they plan on selling the box.

They have also announced the game won't be Pay to Win!

 

There are 3 possibilities,
Sub + Buy box
Buy Box + F2P + (Maybe item store)
F2P + item store

3 possible hybrid combinations
Sub + Buy box or Buy Box +F2P + item store
Sub + Buy Box or F2P + item store
F2P + item store or Buy Box + F2P


The third option is nonsensical.

#1 The game has been in development for nearly 8 years

#2 Its a triple A MMO, and they have suggested 100 millions price tag.  "There is no better way to set fire to 100 million dollars than to develop an MMO and not have end game".

It is estimated that SWTOR cost over 300-400 million dollars.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/08/01/five-lessons-learned-as-swtor-surrenders/

#3 They are planning content for a full year after release, and continual end game updates. 

#4 This is a game designed to endure years!  They need a semi consistent revenue coming in to pay for that development.

Even if you want to consider the GW2 model, Buy box + itemstore, as a hybrid, do you honestly think it could pay for all that?  No way in hell.  They have far higher costs than GW2 ever did.  If the game does incredibly well then they could MAYBE get their initial investment back from box sales, but the item store isn't going to be able to fund all that new content.  Even, if we took another step towards crazy town and said the item store could pay for continual future content, then where is the profit?

 

On reddit, Carbine said that they acknowledge that the payment models of SWTOR/Tera/Rift weren't working, and that they plan on doing something different, because they believe that if they do what other failing MMOs did, then they'd fail as well.  He compared being unique to gambling Wildstar, acknowledging it'll either be a hit or a miss.

Obviously there will be box sales, it won't be free to play for sure.  They've defended the idea of box sales to a point where they made it obvious the game won't be free.

 

 

That last quote is very very telling... He practically comes and tells us what to expect.

 

TLDR:

More than likely this is the model,

Buy Box

Cash shop with only cosmetic items

F2P or Subscription (Subs get CS currency and some other perks)

 

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Comments

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    I'm absolutely 100% sure that whatever the payment plan will be, there will be a Cash Shop included.

     

    All I want to know is how badly that CS will affect my playstyle...

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    I'm absolutely 100% sure that whatever the payment plan will be, there will be a Cash Shop included.

     

    All I want to know is how badly that CS will affect my playstyle...

    I wouldn't say 100%, but I am about 99% certain you are right about the CS.

     

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

     

    Some, maybe all, furniture gives you a rested XP boost.  So it is possible that you could get a small leveling advantage by buying some furniture early on in the game.  I imagine that there is a limit to the amount of xp boost you can get from your home though, so I doubt it has any impact beyond the first few weeks.

  • VenomaniaVenomania MarsPosts: 40Member

    Sounds to me like it will be like GW2 with tierd subs is all

     

    B2P + CS + Tiered Sub Options

     

    FF14 has tiered Sub Options btw, I'm sure there is another MMO with it. Higher Sub costs unlock more features. It would make sense. 

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Venomania

    Sounds to me like it will be like GW2 with tierd subs is all

     

    B2P + CS + Tiered Sub Options

     

    FF14 has tiered Sub Options btw, I'm sure there is another MMO with it. Higher Sub costs unlock more features. It would make sense. 

    On reddit, Carbine said that they acknowledge that the payment models of SWTOR/Tera/Rift weren't working, and that they plan on doing something different, because they believe that if they do what other failing MMOs did, then they'd fail as well.  He compared being unique to gambling Wildstar, acknowledging it'll either be a hit or a miss.

    Obviously there will be box sales, it won't be free to play for sure.  They've defended the idea of box sales to a point where they made it obvious the game won't be free.

  • HanthosHanthos Antelope, CAPosts: 226Member Uncommon

    I have no problem with paying for a box or a sub, but I'm completely done with the discriminatory cash shops requiring me to pay more for anything. Subs work just fine, they create balance for all players, do not disrupt the in game economy or crafters and encourage invested players.

     

    Cash Shop = Next game please...

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Hanthos

    I have no problem with paying for a box or a sub, but I'm completely done with the discriminatory cash shops requiring me to pay more for anything. Subs work just fine, they create balance for all players, do not disrupt the in game economy or crafters and encourage invested players.

     

    Cash Shop = Next game please...

    I have no issues with them as long as they only sell cosmetic junk like WoW.  If someone wants to blow $10 on a pet, then more power to him.  That is another $10 that the game company can use to continue development!  Hell, I have even bought pets when the proceeds go to a relief fund.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon

    The Payment model is most likely straighforward:

     

    F2P + Box (Optional Exclusive Item Sales + CS Currency) + Cash Shop (Optional Item Sales) + Sub (Optional Sub for bonus + CS Currency)

     

    This makes the game fully F2P, but with incentives to buy the box, sub for bonus, and then use the Cash Shop. No restrictions on content, but bonus items to make it easier/faster/better looking. Why should any game being launched today forgoe any of the monitization options that customers want.

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Superman0X

    The Payment model is most likely straighforward:

     

    F2P + Box (Optional Exclusive Item Sales + CS Currency) + Cash Shop (Optional Item Sales) + Sub (Optional Sub for bonus + CS Currency)

     

    This makes the game fully F2P, but with incentives to buy the box, sub for bonus, and then use the Cash Shop. No restrictions on content, but bonus items to make it easier/faster/better looking. Why should any game being launched today forgoe any of the monitization options that customers want.

    There is not a chance in hell the game is straight up F2P!

    The last quote on reddit practically tells you straight up that you will have to buy the box.

     

    More than likely this is the model,

    Buy Box

    Cash shop with only cosmetic items

    F2P or Subscription (Subs get CS currency and some other perks)

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by Hanthos

    I have no problem with paying for a box or a sub, but I'm completely done with the discriminatory cash shops requiring me to pay more for anything. Subs work just fine, they create balance for all players, do not disrupt the in game economy or crafters and encourage invested players.

     

    Cash Shop = Next game please...

    I have no issues with them as long as they only sell cosmetic junk like WoW.  If someone wants to blow $10 on a pet, then more power to him.  That is another $10 that the game company can use to continue development!  Hell  I have even bought pets when they proceeds go to a relief fund.

    Aye, there are Cash Shops and cash shops...

     

    But any game that is relying 100% on CS sales to pay the bills is not going to have a CS filled with a few "optional" items, unless it was developed by 2 guys in their spare time.

    WoW has a very inoffensive CS, because that's purely "money-on-the-side" for them. Their huge monthly sub revenues are what keeps them going.

  • WarruzWarruz Maple Shade, NJPosts: 5Member
    My Guess is GW2 Style with perhaps a Sub Option. 

    image
    Check out Pause your Game - Gaming Podcast (Under construction)

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    I will play FFXIV when I'm feeling serious and EPIC, and I'll be playing a "rabid rabbit" in Wildstar when I'm in need of some comic relief 

    And I'll sub to both games with a smile image

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

     

    This game won't be P2W.

     

    If you were 2/10, after hearing all the amazing stuff this game has to offer, then you weren't interested to start with.  Why are you even here?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

    Remember WAR?

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

     

    This game won't be P2W.

     

    If you were 2/10, after hearing all the amazing stuff this game has to offer, then you weren't interested to start with.  Why are you even here?

     He's here and commenting because he has a valid point.  What developer on the planet earth would ever claim to be making a P2W game?  The answer is none.  Therefore, using their statement that they are not going to make a P2W game as evidence that they won't is a mistake.  It's like saying "Wildstar 100% won't be P2W because the devs said so...."  Rather shoddy reasoning on your part.  Now if you have some other evidence besides they said so you might have a point.  Otherwise, the only take away is "no one knows if it will be P2W or not but the devs are claiming it won't be."

    OT: I think the game will be B2P with a CS.  If it's B2P + Sub Options + CS I won't be interested. 

    Steam: Neph

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

    Remember WAR?

    I never had much interest in that game, so I didn't follow it.

    I heard it flopped pretty hardcore though.

     

    Originally posted by Nephaerius

     He's here and commenting because he has a valid point.  What developer on the planet earth would ever claim to be making a P2W game?  The answer is none.  Therefore, using their statement that they are not going to make a P2W game as evidence that they won't is a mistake.  It's like saying "Wildstar 100% won't be P2W because the devs said so...."  Rather shoddy reasoning on your part.  Now if you have some other evidence besides they said so you might have a point.  Otherwise, the only take away is "no one knows if it will be P2W or not but the devs are claiming it won't be."

    OT: I think the game will be B2P with a CS.  If it's B2P + Sub Options + CS I won't be interested. 

    That is indeed a valid point.  Except the developers said the game won't be P2W.  That is completely different from not mentioning the game is P2W.

     

    This is the sort of PR spin you would expect from someone not mentioning their game is P2W.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/19/planetside-2s-higby-talks-member-benefits-pay-to-win/

     

    "Planetside 2creative director Matt Higby took to the official forums recently to address concerns about potential pay-to-win aspects of the title's monetization scheme. "As much as I want to give you the definitive answer that PlanetSide 2 is not pay-to-win, it turns out it's actually a fairly personal question and people define what exactly pay-to-win is in their own way," Higby wrote."

  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon

    Yep, most likely B2P + cash shop + optional sub. Which brings us to question, what would sub get you?

    Anyway, business model is the least of my concerns. If the game is good, I will gladly pay a sub. So far, they have ticked all the boxes I need in a MMO. My only doubt is replayability of same faction content. Only time will tell. 

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

    Remember WAR?

    I never had much interest in that game, so I didn't follow it.

    I heard it flopped pretty hardcore though.

     

    Originally posted by Nephaerius

     He's here and commenting because he has a valid point.  What developer on the planet earth would ever claim to be making a P2W game?  The answer is none.  Therefore, using their statement that they are not going to make a P2W game as evidence that they won't is a mistake.  It's like saying "Wildstar 100% won't be P2W because the devs said so...."  Rather shoddy reasoning on your part.  Now if you have some other evidence besides they said so you might have a point.  Otherwise, the only take away is "no one knows if it will be P2W or not but the devs are claiming it won't be."

    OT: I think the game will be B2P with a CS.  If it's B2P + Sub Options + CS I won't be interested. 

    That is indeed a valid point.  Except the developers said the game won't be P2W.  That is completely different from not mentioning the game is P2W.

     

    This is the sort of PR spin you would expect from someone not mentioning their game is P2W.

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/19/planetside-2s-higby-talks-member-benefits-pay-to-win/

     

    "Planetside 2creative director Matt Higby took to the official forums recently to address concerns about potential pay-to-win aspects of the title's monetization scheme. "As much as I want to give you the definitive answer that PlanetSide 2 is not pay-to-win, it turns out it's actually a fairly personal question and people define what exactly pay-to-win is in their own way," Higby wrote."

     I don't think you understood.  I don't think that actually stating your game is not P2W is any different than avoiding the subject altogether.  No developer is ever going  to state their game is P2W.  Even if it is glaringly obvious.  Therefore, there's no reason to put stock in Carbine's statement.  If they have some other evidence, like the cash shop for example, then we could look at that and say oh it's not P2W or it is.  But their statement that it's not holds no weight whatsoever.  Seriously who would say their game is P2W before it's even out?  That would just destroy any hope of sales.

    Steam: Neph

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Nephaerius  I don't think that actually stating your game is not P2W is any different than avoiding the subject altogether.


    This doesn't seem logical to me.  It is completely contradictory!

    If you say you are not P2W, then you aren't P2W.  (Assuming the devs didn't lie, which is a decent assumption unless you have justification they are untrustworthy)

    If you don't mention it, then there is a chance that the game might be or might not be P2W.

     

     

    The game won't be P2W.  There is simply no reason for it to use that model

    #1 Huge negative stereotype of P2W model.

    #2 Huge amount of bad PR when people call the devs liars.

    #3 The game will have box sales

    #4 The game will have subs

    #5 There are tons of cosmetic things they can sell in game!

     

    P2W would only hurt them!

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by jimprouner

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

    Has any dev actually said they ARE Pay to Win and they like that model?

    I'm pretty sure every F2P or B2P game says that it isn't Pay to Win - but that's only a judgement the players can make and only after investing considerable time into the game.

    Funny how that works...

    When I saw the rabid bunny race, and now this "hybrid" model nonsense, my interest went from an already low 1 or 2/10 to 0.

    Carbine devs seem legit.   They actually care about making a quality game they want to play.  You can tell by the way they talk about the game.  You can feel the excitement in their voice.   On the other hand, you listen to interviews from the ESO devs and to them talking about the game sounds like a chore.

     

    This game won't be P2W.

     

    If you were 2/10, after hearing all the amazing stuff this game has to offer, then you weren't interested to start with.  Why are you even here?

     Have no idea what you are talking about with the ESO devs making it sound like a chore lol. Really not tied to any sort of reality.

    Well hopefully this game will be as good as the ridiculous hype because I don't get your digs into ESO which is a game that seems to be on the surface appealing to the RPG crowd with meaningful PVE and PVP and not some leading someone by a leash with combat circles and arrows saying...go explore.....but make sure you follow the arrow and look for those special exclamation points so you can do a kill x quest that nobody will read or care about.  I'm about to find out to some degree the reason for the hype around Wildstar..though there is an NDA I believe...so I'll have to respect that...who knows...maybe I'll be special and be capable of liking and supporting two games...or maybe it will fit the vibe they give off thats its targeted for the under 18 crowd..hope not.

    As far as the payment model, I think I like BTP with a sub option as long as the Cash shop isn't PTW. Unlike a lot of cheapoos in these forums I'll pay a monthly fee for any game that I enjoy..though I really think this $15 a month is ridiculous and they should make it the same price as a Netflix Subscription. Maybe they will.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar.

    "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal.

    As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales.

    I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by jimprouner
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    I'm absolutely 100% sure that whatever the payment plan will be, there will be a Cash Shop included.

     

    All I want to know is how badly that CS will affect my playstyle...

    I wouldn't say 100%, but I am about 99% certain you are right about the CS.

     

    They have already announced the game won't be Pay to win. 

    The devs clearly said that they hate that model.

     

    Some, maybe all, furniture gives you a rested XP boost.  So it is possible that you could get a small leveling advantage by buying some furniture early on in the game.  I imagine that there is a limit to the amount of xp boost you can get from your home though, so I doubt it has any impact beyond the first few weeks.

    [mod edit]  P2W is subjective at times it seems and really when push comes to shove they will go down the route for profit 9 times out of 10.

  • MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member
    "

    We have OFFICIALLY heard from the devs that the game is going to be a hybrid model now.http://wildstar.junkiesnation.com/2013/05/29/wildstar-to-have-hybrid-payment-model/ Also, recent comments by the devs suggest they plan on selling the box. They have also announced the game won't be Pay to Win!"

     

    Every pay to win cash shop I've seen, which is most to a certain degree, the developers have said it's not pay to win.  So we'll see....

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by fiontar

    From what I understand, GW2 has produced superb earnings using the B2P+cash shop model. NCSoft owns Carbine and is publishing the game. If B2P/Cash Shop is working for GW2 and all indications are that it is, then there is a pretty good chance Wildstar will offer something very similar.

    "Hybrid". Well, B2P+Cash Shop is a hybrid. It's almost F2P+CS, but you also have to buy the box. So, there is a possibility that WS will use the same model as GW2. "What if it's a hybrid between the GW2 model and the P2P  model"? I see that as a possibility as well. It could offer the GW2 model, plus an optional subscription that would include an exclusive benefit and maybe some cash shop currency included in the deal.

    As to GW2, NCSoft doesn't break down their revenue numbers in much detail. GW2 box sales dropped by 50% vs. the previous quarter, but most MMOs today would be overjoyed to still be selling as many new boxes half a year+ after release. Even with the decline in Box sales, NCSoft Revenue was up over 300% vs. the same quarter a year ago and a good portion of that likely came from GW2 cash shop sales.

    I love the GW2 business model and have spent a fair amount in the cash shop since release. However, I'd have no problem at all if Wildstar added an optional sub fee, with reasonable benefits, as long as the game is still playable and fun without the sub.

    NCsoft is just the publisher.  That doesn't mean diddly shit.  They are two completely different games made by two completely different game developers.

    GW2 only did good, because they intentionally didn't create any end game, or devote any resources to continually pumping out end game updates.  That is extremely expensive.  WS has 50-70% of its team devoted to doing just that!

  • jimprounerjimprouner Hooters, VTPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by furbans

    [mod edit]  P2W is subjective at times it seems and really when push comes to shove they will go down the route for profit 9 times out of 10.

    P2W isn't that subjective.  To say otherwise is just PR spin after the fact.

     

    Just because some shit MMOs didn't mention the fact they were P2W, and then turned out to be, then all new games are automatically assumed to be P2W!  Even if they say they aren't...  Damn, that is a sad cynical pessimistic way to look at things.

    I don't get you guys.  If you say your game isn't P2W, then it isn't.  If you had some reason to doubt carbine, then I could understand.  A coupe dishonest people doesn't make everyone dishonest.   Seriously though, how else do you prove the game isn't P2W if plainly stating it isn't sufficient?  What level of proof do you need?

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