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AAA title developers, let me give you some advice.

Spector88Spector88 Ashtabula, OHMember Posts: 111 Uncommon

I consider myself an MMORPG purist. If there is such a thing.

I've written blogs in the past yadda yadda, basically I started playing MMO's in the mid 90s before I was old enough to have a license. I crushed through english, writing, vocabulary etc, because I was interacting online daily with adults who had no idea who I was other than who I portrayed myself to be. I played in unique, different games, with creative ideas, immersive communities, and fun content.

I understand years go into development of a AAA title, I just don't understand how entire companies can't figure the hell out, what is pretty easily seen.

tldr; AAA titles are being made for a quick buck, and by people trying to be cute, instead of trying to listen to what people want, fill avoid, and make difficult decisions to make a successful long standing game, where people spend their money because they're happy, not because they feel forced to.

First, quit being cute.

Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls?

There is so many innovative ideas out there from games you could use or re-invent. Have any of these idiots played MMORPG's?

Asheron's Call:

Comprehensive allegiance system. Guild housing, mentor/following system involving your mentor getting a % of bonus XP for your allegiance to him and the "guild". This gave benenfits to not only recruit and grow your guild, but to keep people sworn TO YOU, so you get rewards by being good and mentoring THEM.

The Realm Online:

The Realm was one of the first MMORPG's it got 'rare' items right. By creating ultra cool glowing effect, and super rare cosmetic find only items, most games today 15 years later can't even grasp the concept that people want to look and feel badass. Why can't I find a glowing sword, or flaming shield at level 4? We have games coming out in 2013, where you wear the same armor models for 20 levels that look like peasant rags from the 1500's.

These are just two examples, we all have them, there dozens of cool things we would have liked to see picked up.

Open Worlds:

EQ, Asherons Call, Darkfall Online. Why are we not making MMO's more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, why are we making them RPG with online elements? Why are we not fighting to control dungeons or resources, why are we not interacting with other people other than click on a PC to teleport to a place to teleport to another place? I'm all for speedy traveling, but you're not making worlds anymore, you're making fantasy call of duty maps.

Secondly, quit rushing games to sell boxes, and then hanging your hat

Every game wants to be the 'WoW' killer, every game wants to be known as a success yadda yadda. The fact is most of these games know they're going to make a majority of their profit within the first 3 months of release. They pump out some disappointing game way too soon, sell a bajillion boxes and then say hey look we're so awesome we sold this many boxes. When really they just pissed off thousands of people with some crap piss poor product. WE KNOW GOOD GAMES WITH STAYING POWER MAKE MONEY. League of Legends is free to play, you know how much of my money I've given them? You know why they're the most played PC game in the world? BECAUSE THEY GET IT. They make a game to be FUN. Then they know the cash will come.

Quit making F2P games Pay2Win, if I LOVED a game, it was balanced, fun, immersive, why wouldn't I spend money on cosmetic items, upgrades, etc. If you could just see past making a quick buck for the love of god.

One of the biggest examples of this comes to mind is Diablo III (not quite an MMO). The game was not ready, it got rushed out, a ton of promises broken, to this day has very little end game, had ANYONE on that mother *#!( staff actually played Inferno at max level, they would have realized you couldnt PAY ME to play it. Furthest thing from fun, immersive, or worth while. But what do I get, all these articles about how many boxes they've sold etc. They should be ashamed, theirproject leader should be fired... Oh wait...

Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers.

There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong.

Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come.

......

Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.

 

 

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«13

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember Posts: 26,668 Rare

    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.

     

  • Spector88Spector88 Ashtabula, OHMember Posts: 111 Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

    You can rush a game out, dumb it down for any idiot off the street, make 5 million off box sales in the first 48 hours, or you can take the right amount of time, make a better game, maybe only sell 2.5million in the first 6 months, but then get a crapload of mouth referals, good reviews, and eventually make 3 times as much and be respected.

     

    P.S. if people were that successful right now, please find any sector of the MMO industry that is booming or has a bunch of optimistic people?

     

    The genre is dying down. You try to make thar argument when the shelf life of almost every overhyped game on this list is about 4-6 months in the past 5 years. They build up hype, they sell a bunch of boxes, within 6 months the population is less than 20% of launch week. You're telling me thats the way it HAS to be? Please.

    image

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIMember Posts: 2,607 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Spector88
    I consider myself an MMORPG purist. If there is such a thing. I've written blogs in the past yadda yadda, basically I started playing MMO's in the mid 90s before I was old enough to have a license. I crushed through english, writing, vocabulary etc, because I was interacting online daily with adults who had no idea who I was other than who I portrayed myself to be. I played in unique, different games, with creative ideas, immersive communities, and fun content. I understand years go into development of a AAA title, I just don't understand how entire companies can't figure the hell out, what is pretty easily seen. tldr; AAA titles are being made for a quick buck, and by people trying to be cute, instead of trying to listen to what people want, fill avoid, and make difficult decisions to make a successful long standing game, where people spend their money because they're happy, not because they feel forced to. First, quit being cute. Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls? There is so many innovative ideas out there from games you could use or re-invent. Have any of these idiots played MMORPG's? Asheron's Call: Comprehensive allegiance system. Guild housing, mentor/following system involving your mentor getting a % of bonus XP for your allegiance to him and the "guild". This gave benenfits to not only recruit and grow your guild, but to keep people sworn TO YOU, so you get rewards by being good and mentoring THEM. The Realm Online: The Realm was one of the first MMORPG's it got 'rare' items right. By creating ultra cool glowing effect, and super rare cosmetic find only items, most games today 15 years later can't even grasp the concept that people want to look and feel badass. Why can't I find a glowing sword, or flaming shield at level 4? We have games coming out in 2013, where you wear the same armor models for 20 levels that look like peasant rags from the 1500's. Open Worlds: EQ, Asherons Call, Darkfall Online. Why are we not making MMO's more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, why are we making them RPG with online elements? Why are we not fighting to control dungeons or resources, why are we not interacting with other people other than click on a PC to teleport to a place to teleport to another place? I'm all for speedy traveling, but you're not making worlds anymore, you're making fantasy call of duty maps. Secondly, quit rushing games to sell boxes, and then hanging your hat Every game wants to be the 'WoW' killer, every game wants to be known as a success yadda yadda. The fact is most of these games know they're going to make a majority of their profit within the first 3 months of release. They pump out some disappointing game way too soon, sell a bajillion boxes and then say hey look we're so awesome we sold this many boxes. When really they just pissed off thousands of people with some crap piss poor product. WE KNOW GOOD GAMES WITH STAYING POWER MAKE MONEY. League of Legends is free to play, you know how much of my money I've given them? You know why they're the most played PC game in the world? BECAUSE THEY GET IT. They make a game to be FUN. Then they know the cash will come. Quit making F2P games Pay2Win, if I LOVED a game, it was balanced, fun, immersive, why wouldn't I spend money on cosmetic items, upgrades, etc. If you could just see past making a quick buck for the love of god. One of the biggest examples of this comes to mind is Diablo III. The game was not ready, it got rushed out, a ton of promises broken, to this day has very little end game, had ANYONE on that mother *#!( staff actually played Inferno at max level, they would have realized you couldnt PAY ME to play it. Furthest thing from fun, immersive, or worth while. But what do I get, all these articles about how many boxes they've sold etc. They should be ashamed, they're project leader should be fired... Oh wait... Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers. There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong. Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come. ...... Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.    

    Can I laugh here? An MMO purist? Snob yes. Your post is more of a rant and why would a company even listen to a rant.

     

    I will use GW2 as an example. I am still wanting Guild Halls and GvG in the game and they said, they were going to put it in. Well, they hit a deadline and if you can't do something right, leave it out, so they did. The same can be said for D3 - it was exactly what I expected it to be. I didn't play it long and felt I got my monies worth. I am hoping for GW2 guild halls soon.

     

    Companies will not put out games that don't make money - PERIOD. If you make games for the majority of people, on this site, there will not be enough money made to support the game. That is plain as plain as the nose on your face (I count myself as one also, so don't get your panties in a bunch). 

     

    The reason games have be come easier, is the computers are more powerful and you can make programs more complex, up to a point. There is nothing wrong with easy, if it is fun. Fun makes the game for me.

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYMember Posts: 899 Common

    Seems MMO's are no longer the cash cow - moba's are the thing now. So, hopefully, the developers who want to make quick money will go there, and the one or 2 that want to make a game for gamers can get down to it.  

     

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAMember Posts: 205
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers. There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong. Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come. ...... Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.    

    I always get a kick out of people who say this. I have a good buddy who dislikes the direction of SF4 and says that it's being made for casuals and not for gamers... as he still plays SF4.

    There really is a sort of superiority complex from people who claim that they are true gamers, and that games that aren't obliging to some of the original obsurdities are not being made for gamers anymore. Some people absolutely swear that Castlevania 1 was the hardest game ever and that games should be made like it, while being completely unwilling to admit that the majority of the difficulty was because of ass poor controls. Some people liked how in debth the first zelda was while completely forgetting that most of the public had to buy a guide because the game was incredibly cryptic. Some people think that MMO's should go back to the grind while not being willing to admit that spending 6-8 hours to kill one guy is pretty ridiculous.

    Gamers hold on to this idea that because they managed, that the horrible design should stay the same. They then go on to parade this attitude that their way is the true way all in spite of the fact that when games DID cater to them, companies flopped.

  • syntax42syntax42 USAMember Posts: 1,374 Uncommon
    If you don't have verifiable credentials, your advice will be ignored.  Since you're posting this on a forum and not a major news web site, it is obvious you are not someone your intended audience will pay attention to.  You might as well be giving a doctor advice on how to perform a surgery, or be telling the NASA people how to launch a shuttle.  It doesn't matter if you're right--you will be promptly ignored for using the wrong communication medium and for not being a person with a significant status.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember Posts: 26,668 Rare
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

    How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

     

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHMember Posts: 2,628 Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

    How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

     

    If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

  • Spector88Spector88 Ashtabula, OHMember Posts: 111 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xthos
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

    How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

     

    If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

    Elegantly put.

     

    P.S. i'm not trying to sound like a snob, if I do, I don't care. I'm so sick of the only people I see saying Diablo 3 was great, or SWTOR was great are people who have never played an online game before and never stepped within 100 yards of end game.

    They simply make games to sell boxes and make $ and flop out now,

    Please direct me to a game/company who's gotten it right in the past 5 years? Maybe a couple.

    TERA? NO

    D3? NO

    WAR? NO

    RIFT - just went f2p

    LOTRO - had to go f2p

    some games get it over time, but it takes them a long time

    image

  • Spector88Spector88 Ashtabula, OHMember Posts: 111 Uncommon

    "If you don't have verifiable credentials, your advice will be ignored.  "

     

    I'm not expecting anyone to actually take this post to heart. I don't need credentials, I know I've played more MMORPG's and ORP's than 95% of the game developers. Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.

    image

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONMember Posts: 3,099 Uncommon

    First rule of being an armchair developer: nobody owes you a game.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONMember Posts: 3,099 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Spector88

    Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.

    Over my long and winding life, I've come to the conclusion that when I think a professional is being stupid, it's usually because I don't fully understand the situation.

     

  • NagelRitterNagelRitter fewefw, CTMember Posts: 607
    I have to agree with the OP. I think the issue is that the gaming market got overtaken by people who are not involved in the process (ergo, not designers and not developers), so they have a very poor understanding of what makes a game. They also don't like taking risks since that is unstable. Well, it just means they'll never reach WoW. If you only play it safe you are bound to stay mediocre, so quick cash is what you are going to get.

    Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
    Currently playing: GW2, EVE
    Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILMember Posts: 1,528 Uncommon


    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Spector88 Doesn't mean i'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, Im just frustrated at the stupid tendencies they all seem to share.
    Over my long and winding life, I've come to the conclusion that when I think a professional is being stupid, it's usually because I don't fully understand the situation.

     



    Maple there is wisdom in your words. But, go ask how smart the team of SWTOR (who got laid off) feel. In many cases, stupid professionals are just that.

    OP, I like your post.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember Posts: 26,668 Rare
    Originally posted by Xthos
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    See that's the problem. They may be making money SELLING games, but they aren't building a legacy, or maximizing profit.

    How are they not maximizing profits? They should learn to fail to sell games instead?

     

    If you built a shallow mmo that cannot keep a healthy population, and people jump out of in 2-4 weeks,  then you are not maximizing profit.  The more people you can get to stay and play in a game, the more money you will make.  A lot of the recent mmos have not had a lot of staying power.

    Clearly not true.

    D3 sold 12M boxes, and made like $720M without requiring a sub, or even be a MMO. I doubt many MMOs can reach that kind of profit levels.

    There are plenty of examples of non-sub games making much more money than long terms games.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember Posts: 26,668 Rare
    Originally posted by maplestone
    First rule of being an armchair developer: nobody owes you a game.

    That is right. They talked as if they know anything. May be they should attend one or two GDC talk instead of just dreaming in their bedroom.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember Posts: 14,247 Rare
    Originally posted by ElderRat
    Seems MMO's are no longer the cash cow - moba's are the thing now. So, hopefully, the developers who want to make quick money will go there, and the one or 2 that want to make a game for gamers can get down to it.  

    Jumping on the MOBA train is so last year. Developing an online TCG is all the rage now.

    Keep up! 

     

    :)

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member Posts: 5,743 Rare
    So choices are either:

    A. Listen to op and get a game that takes 3-10 years togrow a base of players od 50-500k that will stay for years.

    Or

    B. Don't listen to op,sell 2 million boxes right away and end up with... a base of 50-500K that will stay around for years.

    Gotcha.

  • thegreatestagainthegreatestagain gump city, ALMember Posts: 35
    i want devs from MIT and harvard and yale to make these games
  • drazenidrazeni melbourneMember Posts: 8

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    My advice is to ignore this guy, and learn from those who actually are successful in selling games.  

    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by Spector88
    I consider myself an MMORPG purist. If there is such a thing. I've written blogs in the past yadda yadda, basically I started playing MMO's in the mid 90s before I was old enough to have a license. I crushed through english, writing, vocabulary etc, because I was interacting online daily with adults who had no idea who I was other than who I portrayed myself to be. I played in unique, different games, with creative ideas, immersive communities, and fun content. I understand years go into development of a AAA title, I just don't understand how entire companies can't figure the hell out, what is pretty easily seen. tldr; AAA titles are being made for a quick buck, and by people trying to be cute, instead of trying to listen to what people want, fill avoid, and make difficult decisions to make a successful long standing game, where people spend their money because they're happy, not because they feel forced to. First, quit being cute. Similar to GM's for sports teams, quit trying to pull something out of right field (drafted some nobody with your first pick) and then try to look smart. It's pretty plain to see what the majority of players like and wish for in a game, then make it happen. The most successful companies make it happen, they dont make excuses. What are some of the biggest things players want? They want things like PLAYER HOUSING, yet, only a few games ever have it. They want things like immersive wide open worlds, yet we get this streamlined follow A to B to C to D, kill a few rats, go to C then to B, A. What is this crap? Do you really think anyone is going to feel immersed in a cage and invisible walls? There is so many innovative ideas out there from games you could use or re-invent. Have any of these idiots played MMORPG's? Asheron's Call: Comprehensive allegiance system. Guild housing, mentor/following system involving your mentor getting a % of bonus XP for your allegiance to him and the "guild". This gave benenfits to not only recruit and grow your guild, but to keep people sworn TO YOU, so you get rewards by being good and mentoring THEM. The Realm Online: The Realm was one of the first MMORPG's it got 'rare' items right. By creating ultra cool glowing effect, and super rare cosmetic find only items, most games today 15 years later can't even grasp the concept that people want to look and feel badass. Why can't I find a glowing sword, or flaming shield at level 4? We have games coming out in 2013, where you wear the same armor models for 20 levels that look like peasant rags from the 1500's. Open Worlds: EQ, Asherons Call, Darkfall Online. Why are we not making MMO's more MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER, why are we making them RPG with online elements? Why are we not fighting to control dungeons or resources, why are we not interacting with other people other than click on a PC to teleport to a place to teleport to another place? I'm all for speedy traveling, but you're not making worlds anymore, you're making fantasy call of duty maps. Secondly, quit rushing games to sell boxes, and then hanging your hat Every game wants to be the 'WoW' killer, every game wants to be known as a success yadda yadda. The fact is most of these games know they're going to make a majority of their profit within the first 3 months of release. They pump out some disappointing game way too soon, sell a bajillion boxes and then say hey look we're so awesome we sold this many boxes. When really they just pissed off thousands of people with some crap piss poor product. WE KNOW GOOD GAMES WITH STAYING POWER MAKE MONEY. League of Legends is free to play, you know how much of my money I've given them? You know why they're the most played PC game in the world? BECAUSE THEY GET IT. They make a game to be FUN. Then they know the cash will come. Quit making F2P games Pay2Win, if I LOVED a game, it was balanced, fun, immersive, why wouldn't I spend money on cosmetic items, upgrades, etc. If you could just see past making a quick buck for the love of god. One of the biggest examples of this comes to mind is Diablo III. The game was not ready, it got rushed out, a ton of promises broken, to this day has very little end game, had ANYONE on that mother *#!( staff actually played Inferno at max level, they would have realized you couldnt PAY ME to play it. Furthest thing from fun, immersive, or worth while. But what do I get, all these articles about how many boxes they've sold etc. They should be ashamed, they're project leader should be fired... Oh wait... Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers. There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong. Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come. ...... Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.    

    Can I laugh here? An MMO purist? Snob yes. Your post is more of a rant and why would a company even listen to a rant.

     

    I will use GW2 as an example. I am still wanting Guild Halls and GvG in the game and they said, they were going to put it in. Well, they hit a deadline and if you can't do something right, leave it out, so they did. The same can be said for D3 - it was exactly what I expected it to be. I didn't play it long and felt I got my monies worth. I am hoping for GW2 guild halls soon.

     

    Companies will not put out games that don't make money - PERIOD. If you make games for the majority of people, on this site, there will not be enough money made to support the game. That is plain as plain as the nose on your face (I count myself as one also, so don't get your panties in a bunch). 

     

    The reason games have be come easier, is the computers are more powerful and you can make programs more complex, up to a point. There is nothing wrong with easy, if it is fun. Fun makes the game for me.

     


    [mod edit]

    the O.P Has the right idea I had hoped that The industry would Tern around and see that they are making Garbage games.

    but I guess they are making to much money making these Horrible Games  (Guild wars 1 &2, D3, Tabula rasa, SWOTOR)

    just to name a few. 

    I just don't understand how they went from making awesome Games like FFxi, SWG, EVE, WOW(I don't count panda land )

    if you haven't seen it yet check out star citizen It looks amazing and the guy seems to have the right idea guess that's why He has made Over 15million dollars in Crowd funding From 'Hard core' gamers before he has even Finished the game.

    just go's to show you there is a buck to be made doing things the right way.

    its true MMO's do need to be playable for the casual gamer but not at the cost of Gameplay or long term playability.

    an awesome Example of the extreme of this would be Dota / LOL and EVE online, Both dota and LOL have no real Benefit to playing Long term unless you are amazing and can Get paid to play. EVE online is a game only for the Hardcore gamer its the kind of game you play and 10 months later your like Holy fuck i am 10 months later for work.

    they are both amazing games and i like them both but neither has what i want.

    and that is why i am at uni studying 3d animation and game designe so i can try change the industry from with in.

     

    P.s Sorry for the Spelling

     

     

     

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAMember Posts: 293 Uncommon
    Originally posted by KBishop
    Originally posted by Spector88
    Lastly, and more importantly. Please start making games FOR gamers. There is way too much 'ACTIVISION' and 'TIME WARNER' in todays MMO world. Way too many people making big development decisions that know nothing about the staying power of a game. I read an article last year when I was sitting in my apocalyptic MMO state, 'games aren't being made for gamers anymore, they're being made for the casual fan'. It is true, games are streamlined, instanced, dumbed down, easier. Look, I'm all for including everyone, but who is going to spread the word? Who is going to wait in line, wear t-shirts, get their friends to buy the game, keep forums, internet reviews positive, and push your game... GAMERS. The dude who buys the game for 40$ and gets to level 5, yeah you made money off him, but making a game stupid enough that someone like that is the only one who enjoys it.. Is just wrong. Make good games. For gamers. Games you would want to play. WIth ideas you know we want. In ways, we couldn't see coming. Casuals will come, money will come, success will come. ...... Or buy the rights to more asian games and move them to P2W.    

    I always get a kick out of people who say this. I have a good buddy who dislikes the direction of SF4 and says that it's being made for casuals and not for gamers... as he still plays SF4.

    There really is a sort of superiority complex from people who claim that they are true gamers, and that games that aren't obliging to some of the original obsurdities are not being made for gamers anymore. Some people absolutely swear that Castlevania 1 was the hardest game ever and that games should be made like it, while being completely unwilling to admit that the majority of the difficulty was because of ass poor controls. Some people liked how in debth the first zelda was while completely forgetting that most of the public had to buy a guide because the game was incredibly cryptic. Some people think that MMO's should go back to the grind while not being willing to admit that spending 6-8 hours to kill one guy is pretty ridiculous.

    Gamers hold on to this idea that because they managed, that the horrible design should stay the same. They then go on to parade this attitude that their way is the true way all in spite of the fact that when games DID cater to them, companies flopped.

    Are you talking about Street Fight 4?  The Fighting game with some of the most strict input timings of a fighter made?  Some of the input time lengths being 1 frame which is 1/60th of a second, which is said to be the fastest a human can react?  Your friend isn't a purest but a snob that probably dosn't know much about Street Fight in the slightest.

    Which is your point but, aside from the snobbish tone at the start of the Post, with some of his not so great examples the end of his post has some merit.  Games are made for a quick profit.  They are not being made for the long term profit, something that is no longer a standard business practice.  He did make a good point about building a "legacy" as he called it, which refers customer retention not always finding new customers.

    OP's post could have had a better tone with more subjective examples but did bring up good points, even if these points have been brought up many times.

  • KBishopKBishop tracy, CAMember Posts: 205
    Originally posted by onlinenow25
    Originally posted by KBishop

    I always get a kick out of people who say this. I have a good buddy who dislikes the direction of SF4 and says that it's being made for casuals and not for gamers... as he still plays SF4. There really is a sort of superiority complex from people who claim that they are true gamers, and that games that aren't obliging to some of the original obsurdities are not being made for gamers anymore. Some people absolutely swear that Castlevania 1 was the hardest game ever and that games should be made like it, while being completely unwilling to admit that the majority of the difficulty was because of ass poor controls. Some people liked how in debth the first zelda was while completely forgetting that most of the public had to buy a guide because the game was incredibly cryptic. Some people think that MMO's should go back to the grind while not being willing to admit that spending 6-8 hours to kill one guy is pretty ridiculous. Gamers hold on to this idea that because they managed, that the horrible design should stay the same. They then go on to parade this attitude that their way is the true way all in spite of the fact that when games DID cater to them, companies flopped.

    Are you talking about Street Fight 4?  The Fighting game with some of the most strict input timings of a fighter made?  Some of the input time lengths being 1 frame which is 1/60th of a second, which is said to be the fastest a human can react?  Your friend isn't a purest but a snob that probably dosn't know much about Street Fight in the slightest.

    Which is your point but, aside from the snobbish tone at the start of the Post, with some of his not so great examples the end of his post has some merit.  Games are made for a quick profit.  They are not being made for the long term profit, something that is no longer a standard business practice.  He did make a good point about building a "legacy" as he called it, which refers customer retention not always finding new customers.

    OP's post could have had a better tone with more subjective examples but did bring up good points, even if these points have been brought up many times.

    I am talking about Street Fighter 4, and yea he can be a bit of a snob lol.

    I specifically skipped his first two points for 2 reasons. Being cute is an artistic choice. Some games take different artistic routes to distinguish themselves. If a "gamer" is too put off by how a game looks rather than how it plays, then they are looking at things incredibly superficially, and I think on any and every ground that a person like that has no business critiquing games, both on a game design level and on an artistic level. Meanwhile, I agree games shouldn't be rushed. No product should.

    The problem is this guy, among many others, don't know how businesses works. A game company wont survive on a legacy or on the OP and other gamers good and warm feelings they got from playing. They survive on money. If a company has a model to get more people to buy the game NOW, then  it is as vital to company as it is for you to drink water. This is only amplified when you have indie companies, which more and more games are being developed under.

    The cold hard truth is that the companies don't care about the die hard fans because they can't afford to. They are spending 100-200million dollars per MMO. The companies need to bleed as much blood out of a turnip as they can, and focusing on the smallest minority is a decision that will KILL a company.

     

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONMember Posts: 3,099 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan
      But, go ask how smart the team of SWTOR (who got laid off) feel. In many cases, stupid professionals are just that.

    I try not to kick people when they are down.  Having once been a unicorn (aka: the last cubical with the lights on in an entire office building), I got to witness a lot of coworkers who were brighter and better than me by any measure I could think of being let go.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABMember Posts: 437

    its this kind of attitude that makes me cringe.

     

     i too have played mmorpgs over 20 years,  i too have plumbed the depths of  paper and pen D&D, I too have dabbled in 3D animation,  beta tested games forever, have some of my work published in certain games over the years, and have friends that are indie game devs, and the only thing i ever say to them is follow your heart, don't cave into to what others want you to make, do it for yourself and be proud, and hey if you make out like a bandit good for you.

    no game will give everything to everyone, so if you like a game, play it, if not move on.

     

    cheers

     

     

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCMember Posts: 4,818
    The OPs post is the same ....pile of stuff... people throw into every post about where mmos are and everyone agrees....but apparently when you put it all together and make it a single rant suddenly it's cringe worthy.
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