I thought about the mechanics of spawn camping vs dungeoning on my feet for the past oh, about 10 years now, I'm kinda ready to just chill at a camp again.
Think about it: you go to an area, group up, pick a campsite and just chill there pulling mobs to your spot.
Maybe change things up a little from the early days of EQ such as:
1) Kill X mobs in X amount of time quests or "scalp" style turn-in quests
2)Random boss/named spawns
3)Random multi-mob spawns...think you've got the spawn broken? Put in a random chance for 4 mobs to spawn where 1 normally does.
4)Remember the cool places you used to camp in EQ? It could be a kitchen, a throne room, a campfire, etc. Developers could really liven it up with some visually interesting camp spots.
5)"Hold the line" camps where you rain fire on a sea of orcs trying to cross the moat
Honestly none of this would require a massive re-coding of any current MMO. Pump up the spawns in a given area and let people have at it. Unlike the days of EQ you could still have the normal quest-quest-quest for exp path of current MMOs; this would just give players another alternate way of gaining levels.
Two reasons why it shouldn't come back. First its an older mechanic that was a result of the limitation of programming rather than a feature they planned to implement. Two in today's age not many want to wait around.
I think a good balance would be to allow the option. I never understood why programmers spend millions of developing a game they want to last years and then restrict themselves by not adding options. The more flexibility you give a gamer the more they are apt to stay.
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
I don't mean to interject, but dude griefing in dungeons in WoW is tragicly easy. People can/do randomly pull large groups while mid fight, afk follow, not do their job, etc. The kick feature is so broken that griefing is actually quite doable.
nah .. i bad pull, and i hit "quit". How is anyone going to grief me?
I played WOW till 86 and have done plenty of LFD. No one ever grief me. The "quit" button is your friend.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well you can still have bad pulls that require you to run without a train that affects others. Trains were badgame design. Games have kept the possibility of bad pulls and lost the trains by implementing mob tagging.
Trains are bad game design? This has to be good.. Please do explain to us why trains were bad game design.. Trains only happen because mobs don't reset when you run away and social agro.. But I'm sure you have a better explanation.. I'm all ears.. lol
It was obvious before you were bringing a skewed view to the discussion, but this smug post was the icing on the cake. There is no aspect of EQ that is a better example of bad design than train to zone.
Let's forget that the only way to lose the train of mobs was to exploit the limitations of the zone boundary. Let's just start with, your nostalgia aside, it was commonly used to run players out of "your" zone for control or simply to harass them.
Seriously, Rydeson, if you weren't wearing the rose-colored glasses, and someone described the mechanics of such a "feature" to you in any MMO other than your beloved EQ, you would rip it to shreds as terrible design and an example of poor or "lazy" development.
That didn't happen nearly as often as you make it seem. Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes....but I rarely saw it. Most of the time it was as simple as a bad pull and the person panicking, not taking other players into account in their flight.
I don't get how it's bad design myself either. It is the player causing the train.
Personally it made me be much more careful of my pulls, etc knowing mobs would chase me until they killed me or I killed them...or if I beat them to the zone. It made it much more fun too.
Plus...sometimes trains were beneficial. Some jackass ran through your camp and pulled all the mobs but a few...allowing you to pull them. or you could peel mobs off their train.
"Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes"
"I don't get how it's bad design myself either."
That's nostalgia, not logic, speaking. We're talking about players using a server/zone boundary to avoid or abuse the effects of regular game mechanics. Either you don't understand what Train to Zone is (extensive EQ CV inc) or your biased view allows EQ a pass where it would be unacceptable in any other title.
Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like.
Once in a blue moon some idiot purposely trained a camp. It was not often at all. And when they did, they were broadcasted to the entire zone, and soon after, the server and blacklisted...mainly for repeat offenses. In almost all cases...except this rare one....it was just bad pulls followed with bad decisions on escape routes by said player.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
At least it was amongst the first and had reasons of inexperience of dev's and trial and error. What excuse do today's devs have for the countless blunders seen.
"Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like."
I presented two possible scenarios (willing to bet money it was the latter) and, as predicted, I got your EQ resume as a response.
"Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ)."
Where did I say EQ was a bad game? Where did I say I don't like EQ? I even stated earlier I thought trains made for some good fun. Let's put the defensiveness and emotional investment on the shelf and try to have a meaningful discussion here.
Look, I don't doubt you found train to zone a fun part of the game. I, at no point, said or implied you shouldn't have found it fun. That doesn't change the fact (yes, FACT) that it was bad design. From a developer perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is an exploit of a server/zone boundary to escape the primitive but intended mechanics of the mob behavior. From a gameplay perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest proved to have a negative impact on enough players' experiences to be considered something to avoid in future approaches to mob AI and world building.
You've got this black and white view that if someone feels Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is bad design it is because they do not like it and don't want others to have it as a result. Where on Earth did that come from?
Dial it back and try to look at it objectively. There are plenty of ways to have mobs that aren't on a leash that don't rely on exploiting a zone boundary to accomplish the goal. A great example is UO, where mobs do not have an X to return to and can be trained a quarter of the way across the map if such a scenario presented itself. It wasn't uncommon for someone to lead the lizardmen out of the swamp onto the main road or for players to visit rat/orc valley to find an angry hoard of almost everything imaginable right around the corner.
I never said trains were bad, wrong or impossible to do properly. I never said it wasn't fun in EQ or that trains should never be allowed again. I simply said train to zone as it existed in Everquest was bad design and presented my reasons for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Really Lok? you have a strange way of looking at things or explaining it.. You call it a bad design is simply just YOUR opinion, nothing more , nothing less.. Saying that because a mechanic feature is not used to the degree it was, is proof it's a bad design is quite comical.. Fishing isn't part of many games.. So that means fishing is a bad game design.. Same can be said about weight allowance, and food/drink requirements.. BTW.. TRAINS do exist in modern day games.... EVERY single instance has the ability to train.. Trains happens when mobs don't reset when you run away.. Therefore when you want and wish, if I"m in your group I can train you in any instance I want, anytime I did this plenty of times when powerleveling alts.. LOL So it is a mechanic that is still used and available, just not in open zones.. And personally I don't think it was because of the negative effect as YOU and others want to believe it was, but it was more carebear and easier on the wide customer base..
So with your own words.. Why not be more objective, and allow for a variety of play.. As I explained in the thread, it would be possible to have a special server that allows trains by removing the "mob reset" code.. As long as you don't start a character on that server, it doesn't effect you one bit.. So why are you so combative in denying others their FUN?
Really Lok? you have a strange way of looking at things or explaining it.. You call it a bad design is simply just YOUR opinion, nothing more , nothing less.. Saying that because a mechanic feature is not used to the degree it was, is proof it's a bad design is quite comical.. Fishing isn't part of many games.. So that means fishing is a bad game design.. Same can be said about weight allowance, and food/drink requirements.. BTW.. TRAINS do exist in modern day games.... EVERY single instance has the ability to train.. Trains happens when mobs don't reset when you run away.. Therefore when you want and wish, if I"m in your group I can train you in any instance I want, anytime I did this plenty of times when powerleveling alts.. LOL So it is a mechanic that is still used and available, just not in open zones.. And personally I don't think it was because of the negative effect as YOU and others want to believe it was, but it was more carebear and easier on the wide customer base..
So with your own words.. Why not be more objective, and allow for a variety of play.. As I explained in the thread, it would be possible to have a special server that allows trains by removing the "mob reset" code.. As long as you don't start a character on that server, it doesn't effect you one bit.. So why are you so combative in denying others their FUN?
Quoting this post because this is a perfect example of how you really aren't reading the replies or even trying to understand them. Do you really not understand how train to zone in Everquest worked, why it is an unintended use of server/zone boundaries, and how it impacted gameplay for others in the game?
Your post above speaks volumes about how you genuinely do not want to read anything that conflicts with your view. Your closing line was especially notable, as it indicates you are both trying to be passive aggressive right now and you truly did not read my reply.
Sorry to see that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Rydeson Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Zorgo
I agree with KBishop - anyone who doesn't think you cannot grief in WoW obviously hasn't played with a huntard in a pug from lvl 15 - 89.I played WOW to 86 before i quit. It is not possible to grief me.I hit LFD .. if i don't like the group, i quit. How is anyone going to even find me, not to mention grief me?In case you have been living under a rock and unable to know how people can grief you in an instance.. >>>>>>
It's not like anyone would have time to grief as the tanks run through the dungeons to begin with, but if someone did grief the group in that manner, they would just be kicked. There's no particular reason to keep anyone in the group, especially dps.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Must be a different rock than the one you have been living under.. or something... Because that was clearly staged.. and not that dangerous at all.
Aside from that the most I have been griefed by players in WoW was by useless scrubs wasting my time and then by the Looting mechanics.. I dont know if they have changed it since I played. But having a Ranger roll Need on an epic piece of plate armor and win it ahead of your paladin really sucks. And with LFD and cross server grouping... what recourse do I have.
Originally posted by Rydeson Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
You can get into that little Horde dungeon at level 10. Especially if you're in a guild. It's not that big a deal.
I would think you could get in before level 10, but I'm not sure there's be much reason to since getting to level 10 or 15 happens so quickly.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well you can still have bad pulls that require you to run without a train that affects others. Trains were badgame design. Games have kept the possibility of bad pulls and lost the trains by implementing mob tagging.
Trains are bad game design? This has to be good.. Please do explain to us why trains were bad game design.. Trains only happen because mobs don't reset when you run away and social agro.. But I'm sure you have a better explanation.. I'm all ears.. lol
It was obvious before you were bringing a skewed view to the discussion, but this smug post was the icing on the cake. There is no aspect of EQ that is a better example of bad design than train to zone.
Let's forget that the only way to lose the train of mobs was to exploit the limitations of the zone boundary. Let's just start with, your nostalgia aside, it was commonly used to run players out of "your" zone for control or simply to harass them.
Seriously, Rydeson, if you weren't wearing the rose-colored glasses, and someone described the mechanics of such a "feature" to you in any MMO other than your beloved EQ, you would rip it to shreds as terrible design and an example of poor or "lazy" development.
That didn't happen nearly as often as you make it seem. Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes....but I rarely saw it. Most of the time it was as simple as a bad pull and the person panicking, not taking other players into account in their flight.
I don't get how it's bad design myself either. It is the player causing the train.
Personally it made me be much more careful of my pulls, etc knowing mobs would chase me until they killed me or I killed them...or if I beat them to the zone. It made it much more fun too.
Plus...sometimes trains were beneficial. Some jackass ran through your camp and pulled all the mobs but a few...allowing you to pull them. or you could peel mobs off their train.
"Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes"
"I don't get how it's bad design myself either."
That's nostalgia, not logic, speaking. We're talking about players using a server/zone boundary to avoid or abuse the effects of regular game mechanics. Either you don't understand what Train to Zone is (extensive EQ CV inc) or your biased view allows EQ a pass where it would be unacceptable in any other title.
Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like.
Once in a blue moon some idiot purposely trained a camp. It was not often at all. And when they did, they were broadcasted to the entire zone, and soon after, the server and blacklisted...mainly for repeat offenses. In almost all cases...except this rare one....it was just bad pulls followed with bad decisions on escape routes by said player.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
At least it was amongst the first and had reasons of inexperience of dev's and trial and error. What excuse do today's devs have for the countless blunders seen.
"Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like."
I presented two possible scenarios (willing to bet money it was the latter) and, as predicted, I got your EQ resume as a response.
"Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ)."
Where did I say EQ was a bad game? Where did I say I don't like EQ? I even stated earlier I thought trains made for some good fun. Let's put the defensiveness and emotional investment on the shelf and try to have a meaningful discussion here.
Look, I don't doubt you found train to zone a fun part of the game. I, at no point, said or implied you shouldn't have found it fun. That doesn't change the fact (yes, FACT) that it was bad design. From a developer perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is an exploit of a server/zone boundary to escape the primitive but intended mechanics of the mob behavior. From a gameplay perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest proved to have a negative impact on enough players' experiences to be considered something to avoid in future approaches to mob AI and world building.
You've got this black and white view that if someone feels Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is bad design it is because they do not like it and don't want others to have it as a result. Where on Earth did that come from?
Dial it back and try to look at it objectively. There are plenty of ways to have mobs that aren't on a leash that don't rely on exploiting a zone boundary to accomplish the goal. A great example is UO, where mobs do not have an X to return to and can be trained a quarter of the way across the map if such a scenario presented itself. It wasn't uncommon for someone to lead the lizardmen out of the swamp onto the main road or for players to visit rat/orc valley to find an angry hoard of almost everything imaginable right around the corner.
I never said trains were bad, wrong or impossible to do properly. I never said it wasn't fun in EQ or that trains should never be allowed again. I simply said train to zone as it existed in Everquest was bad design and presented my reasons for it.
Well I apologize for my defensiveness...but you came off snooty and insulting.
I can't speak of UO, as I never played it. But, the only reason it was possible to exploit (as you say) a boundary in EQ is because there were some. The zone lines. Had there been none...which I don't think they could of done with the technology then, hence why they did zones...that would not of been possible. But I see what you guys are saying. Seems to me it just depends on the persons take on it more than anything.
But I also take into account it was the first 3D MMORPG there was. With it came trial and error. Sure..if it was a more modern MMORPG with that...bad design for sure. And maybe it was then too...but still....it was a new genre. But whatever...not really worth arguing about anymore anyways.
Must be a different rock than the one you have been living under.. or something... Because that was clearly staged.. and not that dangerous at all.
Aside from that the most I have been griefed by players in WoW was by useless scrubs wasting my time and then by the Looting mechanics.. I dont know if they have changed it since I played. But having a Ranger roll Need on an epic piece of plate armor and win it ahead of your paladin really sucks. And with LFD and cross server grouping... what recourse do I have.
Of course it was staged.. but was a funny example none the less.. As for other forms of grieving.. YEP, the loot mechanics were BS.. You had people rolling need on everything.. Then you also ran into the repeating flaw of entering the dungeon and your tank or healer is ONLY there for a certain loot drop from boss 1 or boss 2.... and when they don't get it, they quit the group and leave.... This leaves the rest of the group TAGGED for that dungeon, which can't be completed, and no new player is going to finish that said dungeon after the boss they want is dead.... I do find it amazing how so many will pout and cry about one mechanic, but give a more serious flaw a "free pass" because it suits them.. IMO
Really Lok? you have a strange way of looking at things or explaining it.. You call it a bad design is simply just YOUR opinion, nothing more , nothing less.. Saying that because a mechanic feature is not used to the degree it was, is proof it's a bad design is quite comical.. Fishing isn't part of many games.. So that means fishing is a bad game design.. Same can be said about weight allowance, and food/drink requirements.. BTW.. TRAINS do exist in modern day games.... EVERY single instance has the ability to train.. Trains happens when mobs don't reset when you run away.. Therefore when you want and wish, if I"m in your group I can train you in any instance I want, anytime I did this plenty of times when powerleveling alts.. LOL So it is a mechanic that is still used and available, just not in open zones.. And personally I don't think it was because of the negative effect as YOU and others want to believe it was, but it was more carebear and easier on the wide customer base..
So with your own words.. Why not be more objective, and allow for a variety of play.. As I explained in the thread, it would be possible to have a special server that allows trains by removing the "mob reset" code.. As long as you don't start a character on that server, it doesn't effect you one bit.. So why are you so combative in denying others their FUN?
Quoting this post because this is a perfect example of how you really aren't reading the replies or even trying to understand them. Do you really not understand how train to zone in Everquest worked, why it is an unintended use of server/zone boundaries, and how it impacted gameplay for others in the game?
Your post above speaks volumes about how you genuinely do not want to read anything that conflicts with your view. Your closing line was especially notable, as it indicates you are both trying to be passive aggressive right now and you truly did not read my reply.
Sorry to see that.
You still haven't proved anything about training being a bad design.. All you did was try to explain why YOU personally don't like it and how it doesn't conform to YOUR style of play.. Trains have nothing to do with boundaries.. or zone lines.. Trains as they were in EQ only happen because of ONE reason, and ONE reason only.. The mob doesn't RESET after you simply run away 50 feet.. Today's game uses the carebear approach of "DO OVER" when things go wrong.. That is neither a good or bad design it is just personal preference.. Just like ketschup or mustard..
Now can you take your own advice and be open minded that some of us do not enjoy "DO OVER" mob tagging.. and that doesn't mean it's a bad design, it just isn't one you like.. As I said before and will say it again.. Games like WoW could easily accommodate me and others by allowing a special server that REMOVES or greatly extends the reset button on the mobs.. It would have no effect on your comfort level of play as you don't have to roll a character on that server.. Correct?
Camping was a by-product of this as well.. People discovered it was easier (since casters has to sit and med) to pull mobs to THEM, then to chase them around.. If WoW changed the coding on mob reset, that in itself would bring back some of the camping options.. The ability to camp was directly tied into the ability to bring the mobs to the group without them resetting.. Are you catching on now to what I and others are saying? A menu should not have to be a Ketschup or Mustard option.. GIVE us both and you pick what you what, and I'll pick what I want..
I like EQ old style of camping . I also like having to progress through a dungeon to end boss .
But what I think would make camping more fun would be to not have monsters just magically spawn in thin air but to some how make it a bit more realistic .
For example there could be doors in a room that players cant open but when monsters "respawn" they open the doors and walk out into the room .
Or in a crypt they could come out of the graves etc .. basically don't make mobs appear out of thin air . that's lame and lazy .
Also I forgot to mention the joy of pulling mobs , I played a monk and had the ability to feign death which basically allowed me to survive a bad pull , of course it was nerfed eventually and it sometimes failed , which made pulling risky because you lose xp if you die .. that is unless cleric rezed .
Now can you take your own advice and be open minded that some of us do not enjoy "DO OVER" mob tagging.. and that doesn't mean it's a bad design, it just isn't one you like.. As I said before and will say it again.. Games like WoW could easily accommodate me and others by allowing a special server that REMOVES or greatly extends the reset button on the mobs.. It would have no effect on your comfort level of play as you don't have to roll a character on that server.. Correct?
I did not contest anything you say there. Actually, I even suggested exactly what you just presented as a solution, giving an example of a game where that was done. Seems like you would have probably liked the reply I made to Kal had you read it instead of simply reacted to key words in it. vOv
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
LOL .. i can hit the quit button before i die. You haven't done that? Did you actually play WOW? If you pay attention, and someone did something stupid, you can be out of there before anything bad happens.
And even if you die once, so what? No one can do it a second time, unlike the horrible days of EQ.
Originally posted by Rydeson Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
You can get into that little Horde dungeon at level 10. Especially if you're in a guild. It's not that big a deal.
I would think you could get in before level 10, but I'm not sure there's be much reason to since getting to level 10 or 15 happens so quickly.
Plus L15 is only one or two hours of leveling. Just start doing dungeons after the right level and keep on doing it.
Comments
Two reasons why it shouldn't come back. First its an older mechanic that was a result of the limitation of programming rather than a feature they planned to implement. Two in today's age not many want to wait around.
I think a good balance would be to allow the option. I never understood why programmers spend millions of developing a game they want to last years and then restrict themselves by not adding options. The more flexibility you give a gamer the more they are apt to stay.
I played WOW to 86 before i quit. It is not possible to grief me.
I hit LFD .. if i don't like the group, i quit. How is anyone going to even find me, not to mention grief me?
nah .. i bad pull, and i hit "quit". How is anyone going to grief me?
I played WOW till 86 and have done plenty of LFD. No one ever grief me. The "quit" button is your friend.
if a healer simply refuses to do their job, then he has just griefed you. I don't know how you think it's impossible to grief someone
"Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like."
I presented two possible scenarios (willing to bet money it was the latter) and, as predicted, I got your EQ resume as a response.
"Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ)."
Where did I say EQ was a bad game? Where did I say I don't like EQ? I even stated earlier I thought trains made for some good fun. Let's put the defensiveness and emotional investment on the shelf and try to have a meaningful discussion here.
Look, I don't doubt you found train to zone a fun part of the game. I, at no point, said or implied you shouldn't have found it fun. That doesn't change the fact (yes, FACT) that it was bad design. From a developer perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is an exploit of a server/zone boundary to escape the primitive but intended mechanics of the mob behavior. From a gameplay perspective, Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest proved to have a negative impact on enough players' experiences to be considered something to avoid in future approaches to mob AI and world building.
You've got this black and white view that if someone feels Train to Zone as it existed in Everquest is bad design it is because they do not like it and don't want others to have it as a result. Where on Earth did that come from?
Dial it back and try to look at it objectively. There are plenty of ways to have mobs that aren't on a leash that don't rely on exploiting a zone boundary to accomplish the goal. A great example is UO, where mobs do not have an X to return to and can be trained a quarter of the way across the map if such a scenario presented itself. It wasn't uncommon for someone to lead the lizardmen out of the swamp onto the main road or for players to visit rat/orc valley to find an angry hoard of almost everything imaginable right around the corner.
I never said trains were bad, wrong or impossible to do properly. I never said it wasn't fun in EQ or that trains should never be allowed again. I simply said train to zone as it existed in Everquest was bad design and presented my reasons for it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Really Lok? you have a strange way of looking at things or explaining it.. You call it a bad design is simply just YOUR opinion, nothing more , nothing less.. Saying that because a mechanic feature is not used to the degree it was, is proof it's a bad design is quite comical.. Fishing isn't part of many games.. So that means fishing is a bad game design.. Same can be said about weight allowance, and food/drink requirements.. BTW.. TRAINS do exist in modern day games.... EVERY single instance has the ability to train.. Trains happens when mobs don't reset when you run away.. Therefore when you want and wish, if I"m in your group I can train you in any instance I want, anytime I did this plenty of times when powerleveling alts.. LOL So it is a mechanic that is still used and available, just not in open zones.. And personally I don't think it was because of the negative effect as YOU and others want to believe it was, but it was more carebear and easier on the wide customer base..
So with your own words.. Why not be more objective, and allow for a variety of play.. As I explained in the thread, it would be possible to have a special server that allows trains by removing the "mob reset" code.. As long as you don't start a character on that server, it doesn't effect you one bit.. So why are you so combative in denying others their FUN?
In case you have been living under a rock and unable to know how people can grief you in an instance.. >>>>>>
LEEERRRRROYYYYYYYYYY JEENNKINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Do I need to say more?
Quoting this post because this is a perfect example of how you really aren't reading the replies or even trying to understand them. Do you really not understand how train to zone in Everquest worked, why it is an unintended use of server/zone boundaries, and how it impacted gameplay for others in the game?
Your post above speaks volumes about how you genuinely do not want to read anything that conflicts with your view. Your closing line was especially notable, as it indicates you are both trying to be passive aggressive right now and you truly did not read my reply.
Sorry to see that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I played WOW to 86 before i quit. It is not possible to grief me. I hit LFD .. if i don't like the group, i quit. How is anyone going to even find me, not to mention grief me?
In case you have been living under a rock and unable to know how people can grief you in an instance.. >>>>>>
LEEERRRRROYYYYYYYYYY JEENNKINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Do I need to say more?
It's not like anyone would have time to grief as the tanks run through the dungeons to begin with, but if someone did grief the group in that manner, they would just be kicked. There's no particular reason to keep anyone in the group, especially dps.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Must be a different rock than the one you have been living under.. or something... Because that was clearly staged.. and not that dangerous at all.
Aside from that the most I have been griefed by players in WoW was by useless scrubs wasting my time and then by the Looting mechanics.. I dont know if they have changed it since I played. But having a Ranger roll Need on an epic piece of plate armor and win it ahead of your paladin really sucks. And with LFD and cross server grouping... what recourse do I have.
You can get into that little Horde dungeon at level 10. Especially if you're in a guild. It's not that big a deal.
I would think you could get in before level 10, but I'm not sure there's be much reason to since getting to level 10 or 15 happens so quickly.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well I apologize for my defensiveness...but you came off snooty and insulting.
I can't speak of UO, as I never played it. But, the only reason it was possible to exploit (as you say) a boundary in EQ is because there were some. The zone lines. Had there been none...which I don't think they could of done with the technology then, hence why they did zones...that would not of been possible. But I see what you guys are saying. Seems to me it just depends on the persons take on it more than anything.
But I also take into account it was the first 3D MMORPG there was. With it came trial and error. Sure..if it was a more modern MMORPG with that...bad design for sure. And maybe it was then too...but still....it was a new genre. But whatever...not really worth arguing about anymore anyways.
Of course it was staged.. but was a funny example none the less.. As for other forms of grieving.. YEP, the loot mechanics were BS.. You had people rolling need on everything.. Then you also ran into the repeating flaw of entering the dungeon and your tank or healer is ONLY there for a certain loot drop from boss 1 or boss 2.... and when they don't get it, they quit the group and leave.... This leaves the rest of the group TAGGED for that dungeon, which can't be completed, and no new player is going to finish that said dungeon after the boss they want is dead.... I do find it amazing how so many will pout and cry about one mechanic, but give a more serious flaw a "free pass" because it suits them.. IMO
You still haven't proved anything about training being a bad design.. All you did was try to explain why YOU personally don't like it and how it doesn't conform to YOUR style of play.. Trains have nothing to do with boundaries.. or zone lines.. Trains as they were in EQ only happen because of ONE reason, and ONE reason only.. The mob doesn't RESET after you simply run away 50 feet.. Today's game uses the carebear approach of "DO OVER" when things go wrong.. That is neither a good or bad design it is just personal preference.. Just like ketschup or mustard..
Now can you take your own advice and be open minded that some of us do not enjoy "DO OVER" mob tagging.. and that doesn't mean it's a bad design, it just isn't one you like.. As I said before and will say it again.. Games like WoW could easily accommodate me and others by allowing a special server that REMOVES or greatly extends the reset button on the mobs.. It would have no effect on your comfort level of play as you don't have to roll a character on that server.. Correct?
Camping was a by-product of this as well.. People discovered it was easier (since casters has to sit and med) to pull mobs to THEM, then to chase them around.. If WoW changed the coding on mob reset, that in itself would bring back some of the camping options.. The ability to camp was directly tied into the ability to bring the mobs to the group without them resetting.. Are you catching on now to what I and others are saying? A menu should not have to be a Ketschup or Mustard option.. GIVE us both and you pick what you what, and I'll pick what I want..
I like EQ old style of camping . I also like having to progress through a dungeon to end boss .
But what I think would make camping more fun would be to not have monsters just magically spawn in thin air but to some how make it a bit more realistic .
For example there could be doors in a room that players cant open but when monsters "respawn" they open the doors and walk out into the room .
Or in a crypt they could come out of the graves etc .. basically don't make mobs appear out of thin air . that's lame and lazy .
Also I forgot to mention the joy of pulling mobs , I played a monk and had the ability to feign death which basically allowed me to survive a bad pull , of course it was nerfed eventually and it sometimes failed , which made pulling risky because you lose xp if you die .. that is unless cleric rezed .
I did not contest anything you say there. Actually, I even suggested exactly what you just presented as a solution, giving an example of a game where that was done. Seems like you would have probably liked the reply I made to Kal had you read it instead of simply reacted to key words in it. vOv
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
LOL .. i can hit the quit button before i die. You haven't done that? Did you actually play WOW? If you pay attention, and someone did something stupid, you can be out of there before anything bad happens.
And even if you die once, so what? No one can do it a second time, unlike the horrible days of EQ.
Plus L15 is only one or two hours of leveling. Just start doing dungeons after the right level and keep on doing it.