Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
Have you actually played the game? Dungeons are trivial most of the time. You can beat it easy wearing greens. And most people have heirlooms ... and they will be killing the bosses so fast that they will hardly be noticing your DPS (and after the boss is down ... you get your blue).
I leveled up a few alts that way. Piece of cake. In fact, the DPS is usually so high in the group that you don't even get to see all the mechanics of the boss.
Tisk Tisk.. some of you are being disingenous at best.. I dare you to go into any dungeon wearing ONLY what you loot, and NOTHING from the AH or quest rewards.. As I said, Blizz must of changed their programming in the last few years.. No way you walk into dungeons wearing outdated green gear and take down bosses.. Especially as easy as Nari is saying.. LOL
I've done camping when I felt like it in every game I've ever played, including WoW.
This is true. Any game with OW mobs has an option to camp and farm. No game has come out in 5 years or more that will allow you to level through OW mob farming though. It's all quest trains now.
Actually Aion at launch(09') did expect players to repeatedly kill mobs in designated areas. Then everyone cried "Grind!" and the, quests were rolled in.
In hindsight, neither method was better, was just not a very fun game. Camping mobs didn't make it any more social but the time to rest up was somewhat short. After having a lot of quests added the community was still the same (and now leaving en mass).
Aion had the same problem than Tera, the quests seemed to be an afterthought, and actually indeed were. This resulted in boring, grindy, repetitive questing. It's definitely not those games I'd use if I had to defend a traditional quest based progression system (I would actually use vanilla WoW and vanilla LOTRO, before they became so linear and just as bad as Rift).
I'm not flagged for Forum PvP like you are. I'm not in defense of one or the other. Observations can simply be observations, you know?
I feel like part of the problem that happens in games today is that all content is a shortcut to the end result. Rush through quest hubs and blow through quest mobs so that you can reach max level. By the time you reach end level, there remains a limited amount of things to do.
In EQ camping was an opportunity to slow down, meet new people, chat and most importantly learn about the game. When you are sitting in one spot with a group you learn how cc works, what other class abilities are, when to taunt, when to attack, etc etc. Rather than rushing through content, you have a chance to learn how to become a better player and work as a team.
I understand that some people abhor camping and thats completely fine. Its not a mechanic that everyone appreciates. What I dont understand is why its inclusion as a potential gameplay option is so offensive to some people, particularly if camping was instigated not as a requirement to achieve loot but just as another way to play the game.
If camping is optional, why does it bother so many people?
+1
I think...and I am guessing here...the reason it offends so many is that they are afraid of even the slightest chance it is done in a way that catches on and becomes a standard...because they don't enjoy it. So they'd rather not see it incorporated at all to give that chance, no matter how slight it may be.
Or...just selfishness to have only game play options they enjoy in MMORPG's, despite if the don't effect them and how they like to play the game.
Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well you can still have bad pulls that require you to run without a train that affects others. Trains were badgame design. Games have kept the possibility of bad pulls and lost the trains by implementing mob tagging.
Trains are bad game design? This has to be good.. Please do explain to us why trains were bad game design.. Trains only happen because mobs don't reset when you run away and social agro.. But I'm sure you have a better explanation.. I'm all ears.. lol
It was obvious before you were bringing a skewed view to the discussion, but this smug post was the icing on the cake. There is no aspect of EQ that is a better example of bad design than train to zone.
Let's forget that the only way to lose the train of mobs was to exploit the limitations of the zone boundary. Let's just start with, your nostalgia aside, it was commonly used to run players out of "your" zone for control or simply to harass them.
Seriously, Rydeson, if you weren't wearing the rose-colored glasses, and someone described the mechanics of such a "feature" to you in any MMO other than your beloved EQ, you would rip it to shreds as terrible design and an example of poor or "lazy" development.
That didn't happen nearly as often as you make it seem. Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes....but I rarely saw it. Most of the time it was as simple as a bad pull and the person panicking, not taking other players into account in their flight.
I don't get how it's bad design myself either. It is the player causing the train.
Personally it made me be much more careful of my pulls, etc knowing mobs would chase me until they killed me or I killed them...or if I beat them to the zone. It made it much more fun too.
Plus...sometimes trains were beneficial. Some jackass ran through your camp and pulled all the mobs but a few...allowing you to pull them. or you could peel mobs off their train.
"Yes...exploiting as you said did happen sometimes"
"I don't get how it's bad design myself either."
That's nostalgia, not logic, speaking. We're talking about players using a server/zone boundary to avoid or abuse the effects of regular game mechanics. Either you don't understand what Train to Zone is (extensive EQ CV inc) or your biased view allows EQ a pass where it would be unacceptable in any other title.
Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like.
Once in a blue moon some idiot purposely trained a camp. It was not often at all. And when they did, they were broadcasted to the entire zone, and soon after, the server and blacklisted...mainly for repeat offenses. In almost all cases...except this rare one....it was just bad pulls followed with bad decisions on escape routes by said player.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
At least it was amongst the first and had reasons of inexperience of dev's and trial and error. What excuse do today's devs have for the countless blunders seen.
Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
You are not. You said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". That is obviously about leveling. Xp is pointless at end game.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
Training is obviously a bad game design. It allows players to grief by intention, or even accidentally. Don't tell me it is taken away just because.
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
Well yea that is true. At some point towards the tail end of the game (read last 2 levels) greens seriously don't cut it. You DO have to do a combination of instances and questing in order to be ready for heroic dungeons.
Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
You are not. You said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". That is obviously about leveling. Xp is pointless at end game.
So your stance is that there are NO BLUE rewards before max level.. ? As I said, I left before Cata and MUCH of the rewards from chain quest were BLUES, not greens.. and I do call the last 10 levels end game.. NOT Deadmines stuff.. and at the time I left if you went into a max level dungeon wearing heirlooms you were quickly kicked.. NO freeloaders.. TY And don't even begin to tell you you got all your XP from 1st level to max doing dungeons.. Have you ever thought about running for office in politics.. ?? Just curious
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
Well yea that is true. At some point towards the tail end of the game (read last 2 levels) greens seriously don't cut it. You DO have to do a combination of instances and questing in order to be ready for heroic dungeons.
TRUE.. plus at the time I left Icecrown and Storm Peaks locked out unless you did the phasing quest, that allowed you to do more on top of that..
Not really.. If you refuse to do the quest hub game, then you are gimping yourself from BLUE rewards that you'll need to safely be a productive member of a dungeon group.. Mob XP is better in dungeons, but are you planning on riding the coat tails of others?
Not really. Dungeons have much better blues than quest rewards. Just run it with under gear once or twice and you will be carrying the others.
In fact, good blue gear is so abundant in dungeons that often they are not even picked up.
Good luck with that.. You missed the point.. I bet if you go into a dungeon with 5 people ALL wearing GREENS you'll waste more time dying then killing.. So unless Blizz changed their carebear programming.. If you went into dungeons with greens.. the other 4 guys were wearing BLUES from quest hubs that YOU avoided.. lol
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
You are not. You said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". That is obviously about leveling. Xp is pointless at end game.
So your stance and Jeans is that there are NO BLUE rewards before max level.. ? As I said, I left before Cata and MUCH of the rewards from chain quest were BLUES, not greens.. and I do call the last 10 levels end game.. NOT Deadmines stuff.. and at the time I left if you went into a max level dungeon wearing heirlooms you were quickly kicked.. NO freeloaders.. TY And don't even begin to tell you you got all your XP from 1st level to max doing dungeons.. Have you ever thought about running for office in politics.. ?? Just curious
No. My stance is that you can easily just do dungeons, and you don't need blues (if any) from quests.
Don't believe me? Just queue a dungeon and see. I level several alts (before i quit wow) without doing one single quest.
BTW, don't bring up max level dungeons. YOu are just trying confuse others about your mistake. You clearly said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". WE are talking about leveling, not end-game dungeon item hunt.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
Training is obviously a bad game design. It allows players to grief by intention, or even accidentally. Don't tell me it is taken away just because.
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
???!!!? ..... sigh.
Of course no one could grief you in an instance..unless in you're group. You are reaching for valid points where there are none.
In open world areas.....in WoW...it is completely possible for someone to repeatedly grief everyone in an area. It's called a high level ganking in low level areas, and happens all the time....where as what described in EQ happen rarely.
A big difference with that being the case is EQ having community that communicated info about jerks and blackballed them, and WoW really not having a server wide community due to cross server stuff, server xfer options, etc didn't often communicate such things. Sadly...if someone said something about such things or complained...they were then trolled in chat.
People are more likely to act a fool in a game where they have ways to reset their rep or restart and be at cap again in a month than in a game where they don't have those options and getting to cap takes much longer.
Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
I don't mean to interject, but dude griefing in dungeons in WoW is tragicly easy. People can/do randomly pull large groups while mid fight, afk follow, not do their job, etc. The kick feature is so broken that griefing is actually quite doable.
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
No here one argued that was good design. Stay on topic, please.
[mod edit]
Speaking of adding something useful to the discussion......
I asked earlier and would really like to know how you would handle the following in a 'modern' camping game:
1. Would mobs at camps drop loot....and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (people farming bosses)
2. Would mobs drop quest items.... and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (guilds locking down a camp so all their members get the quest item effectively preventing all others from obtaining it)
3. Would you have enough camps for every group? Meaning, if you had 300 groups on average a night in a level range, would you have at least 300 camps of equal 'benefits' (xp, loot, skill-ups) available? How?
4. How would you ensure that everyone who wanted a 'camp' got one?
5. Would some paying customers just be s.o.l.? How would you explain that to a customer and still take their money? "Sorry we don't have enough camps for all groups...suck it up....and thanks for the 15 bucks each month"?
I'm not talking about cry babies and loot whores, I'm talking structural. How do you structure the game so that everyone paying for it has access to the gameplay you are touting. I mean, that is what we are paying for right? To play the game?
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
They aren't forgetting, they are giving up.
Think about this from a lore perspective. Think about any fantasy story/movie you know of. I bet there is at least one 'adventure' where the 'heros' have to 'escape' - and their attackers chase them, but finally 'give up'.
Rubber banding mobs is a perfectly plausible design for a fantasy adventure.
Sometimes a group of orcs just wants you to get off their lawn - they aren't necessarily interested in pursuing you to the ends of the earth because you walked too close to their camp.
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
I don't mean to interject, but dude griefing in dungeons in WoW is tragicly easy. People can/do randomly pull large groups while mid fight, afk follow, not do their job, etc. The kick feature is so broken that griefing is actually quite doable.
I agree with KBishop - anyone who doesn't think you cannot grief in WoW obviously hasn't played with a huntard in a pug from lvl 15 - 89.
Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
I partly agree with you - you have to do quests to be ready for lvl 15 and dungeons.
But I disagree, if you are a healer or a tank, it is quicker to use the dungeon finder to lvl up. Tanks are almost insta-pop and healers generally don't have to wait more than 5 min. However, if you are dps, you need to quest in the down time waiting for the df to pop.
If a tank or healer uses the dungeon finder almost exclusively - they will have huge gaping holes in their gear. Which amount to a hill of beans compared to how easy the content is. I have a lvl 40 sham who has no head piece still - yet the dungeons are absolutely no problem despite my mish-mash of gear.
At lvl 85 though, it would be folly not to do the questlines to be ready for the dungeons. At that point, you need to fill in the gaps in your armor or you will start failing dungeons.
Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
I partly agree with you - you have to do quests to be ready for lvl 15 and dungeons.
But I disagree, if you are a healer or a tank, it is quicker to use the dungeon finder to lvl up. Tanks are almost insta-pop and healers generally don't have to wait more than 5 min. However, if you are dps, you need to quest in the down time waiting for the df to pop.
If a tank or healer uses the dungeon finder almost exclusively - they will have huge gaping holes in their gear. Which amount to a hill of beans compared to how easy the content is. I have a lvl 40 sham who has no head piece still - yet the dungeons are absolutely no problem despite my mish-mash of gear.
At lvl 85 though, it would be folly not to do the questlines to be ready for the dungeons. At that point, you need to fill in the gaps in your armor or you will start failing dungeons.
Most of the 'gear' issues pre WoTLK dungeons are circumvented by the heirlooms. There is nearly an entire heirloom set available, including trinkets. If you have access too them, there is almost entirely no reason not to use them and every reason to use them (they are substantially better than anything available). And even then, most of the dungeons have been revamped to offer better gear to carry you for most of the levels. You can stay fully geared and well geared by JUST lfg all the way up to like level 90. It will be monotonous as all hell but its quite easily doable
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
No here one argued that was good design. Stay on topic, please.
[mod edit]
Speaking of adding something useful to the discussion......
I asked earlier and would really like to know how you would handle the following in a 'modern' camping game:
1. Would mobs at camps drop loot....and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (people farming bosses) I personally like how GW2 does it myself with boss events.. General trash mobs, I'd use the random generator but make it even LESS chance tho.. I think games today toss our greens like Monty Hall anymore.. But with boss mobs I like a currency type reward where you can cash in for gear.. This way we promote a social raiding enviroment and not some kill stealing theme..
2. Would mobs drop quest items.... and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (guilds locking down a camp so all their members get the quest item effectively preventing all others from obtaining it) Epic quest items should be part of the random generator from multiple types of mobs like "black pearls".. If a mob is needed or an Epic Quest then it should be triggered, not spawned..
3. Would you have enough camps for every group? Meaning, if you had 300 groups on average a night in a level range, would you have at least 300 camps of equal 'benefits' (xp, loot, skill-ups) available? How? In my dream zone, 90% of the mobs would be soloable and roaming.. There would be more then enough camp locations for everyone in the zone.. Back in EQ there were two types of camps.. 1) static ones like Orc Camp 1, Live Tower ,, or you get general area camps in where the group gather in the ledge of a wall or similar and only pull general roaming trash mobs like in OT..
4. How would you ensure that everyone who wanted a 'camp' got one? As states above.. There should be more then enough for everyone, and if for some reason at prime time there isn't.. Devs can just generate some more.. This really shouldn't be an issue with a correctly designed zone.. As with EQ, camping was not intended, it just happened on it's own.. Most zones there wasn't a problem, but other zones there were.. And too many times over camping was because of poor loot drop tables..
5. Would some paying customers just be s.o.l.? How would you explain that to a customer and still take their money? "Sorry we don't have enough camps for all groups...suck it up....and thanks for the 15 bucks each month"? As states above, there would not be a lack of locations..
I'm not talking about cry babies and loot whores, I'm talking structural. How do you structure the game so that everyone paying for it has access to the gameplay you are touting. I mean, that is what we are paying for right? To play the game?
TY Z, as I said in previous post I would love to see a mixture of GW2 and EQ zones.. some camping along with roaming task NPC..Some of the GW2 dynamic events almost trigger often enough to be considered a camp and everyone in the zone loves them.. Every time I log on and in that zone, groups are farming the DE's like a camp..
I enjoyed camping in Everquest. It was a nice change to not have to camp in WoW, but I've been pretty nostalgic lately, and have gone back to EQ. There really isn't much camping going on except in a few zones, and generally only at the max level (on my server). It's fine, I understand the market has changed. Still, I would be happy to see a return of mechanics that have more to do with community than progression. It seems like lately a lot of movies and games have gone back to their retro roots. I could see something like that happing with some descent MMOs (or patches) in the near future. I bet if they brought back SWG pre-NGE, they would make pretty good money.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I sure do miss my SWG pre-cu days.. I had 2 toons, one was an Artisan owning a cantina, the other was a master musician owning a theater.. I spent loads of time running my harvesters, crafting food/drink and med supplies, and doing musician buffs as well as farming missions as novice CH.. All inside our player city that was 20 homes strong.. Tis a shame there were too many bugged issues that didn't get addressed and corrected before NGE.. Oh well
Comments
Have you actually played the game? Dungeons are trivial most of the time. You can beat it easy wearing greens. And most people have heirlooms ... and they will be killing the bosses so fast that they will hardly be noticing your DPS (and after the boss is down ... you get your blue).
I leveled up a few alts that way. Piece of cake. In fact, the DPS is usually so high in the group that you don't even get to see all the mechanics of the boss.
Sorry.. Jean.. POT meet Kettle..
You have no idea how I play MMo's too such as camping yet you are invoking your will upon me.... Right?
I'm not flagged for Forum PvP like you are. I'm not in defense of one or the other. Observations can simply be observations, you know?
+1
I think...and I am guessing here...the reason it offends so many is that they are afraid of even the slightest chance it is done in a way that catches on and becomes a standard...because they don't enjoy it. So they'd rather not see it incorporated at all to give that chance, no matter how slight it may be.
Or...just selfishness to have only game play options they enjoy in MMORPG's, despite if the don't effect them and how they like to play the game.
The dungeons were specifically designed for you to mop the floor with them in greens. Lets not bring in blue's and heirlooms.
And just an FYI, it was exceptionally rare for you to get a Blue from a quest hub. 95% of the quests offer only greens and nothing else.
True.. but maybe I should of rephrased it.. since 90% of the game is end game.. I"m talking about end game dungeon grinds, and those you aren't going to steamroll anything wearing heirloom and outdated greens from 20 levels ago as Nari likes to believe..
Sure...I have no idea what a train is...I only played EQ for 5 years. Do tell me all knowing of all things game-like.
Once in a blue moon some idiot purposely trained a camp. It was not often at all. And when they did, they were broadcasted to the entire zone, and soon after, the server and blacklisted...mainly for repeat offenses. In almost all cases...except this rare one....it was just bad pulls followed with bad decisions on escape routes by said player.
Every game these days have exploits, and every one of them have people who discover and abuse them, so let's not try and make it sound as if that is what makes EQ a bad game and that particular feature bad game design because you obviously disliked it (EQ).
At least it was amongst the first and had reasons of inexperience of dev's and trial and error. What excuse do today's devs have for the countless blunders seen.
You are not. You said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". That is obviously about leveling. Xp is pointless at end game.
Training is obviously a bad game design. It allows players to grief by intention, or even accidentally. Don't tell me it is taken away just because.
And while every game may have exploits, tell me one that allows me to grief everyone in an area repeatedly. Heck, in a game like WOW where people do instanced dungeon instead of open world dungeons, i bet you cannot even find one way to grief me, if i decide to ignore you.
Well yea that is true. At some point towards the tail end of the game (read last 2 levels) greens seriously don't cut it. You DO have to do a combination of instances and questing in order to be ready for heroic dungeons.
So your stance is that there are NO BLUE rewards before max level.. ? As I said, I left before Cata and MUCH of the rewards from chain quest were BLUES, not greens.. and I do call the last 10 levels end game.. NOT Deadmines stuff.. and at the time I left if you went into a max level dungeon wearing heirlooms you were quickly kicked.. NO freeloaders.. TY And don't even begin to tell you you got all your XP from 1st level to max doing dungeons.. Have you ever thought about running for office in politics.. ?? Just curious
TRUE.. plus at the time I left Icecrown and Storm Peaks locked out unless you did the phasing quest, that allowed you to do more on top of that..
No. My stance is that you can easily just do dungeons, and you don't need blues (if any) from quests.
Don't believe me? Just queue a dungeon and see. I level several alts (before i quit wow) without doing one single quest.
BTW, don't bring up max level dungeons. YOu are just trying confuse others about your mistake. You clearly said "Mob XP is better in dungeons". WE are talking about leveling, not end-game dungeon item hunt.
???!!!? ..... sigh.
Of course no one could grief you in an instance..unless in you're group. You are reaching for valid points where there are none.
In open world areas.....in WoW...it is completely possible for someone to repeatedly grief everyone in an area. It's called a high level ganking in low level areas, and happens all the time....where as what described in EQ happen rarely.
A big difference with that being the case is EQ having community that communicated info about jerks and blackballed them, and WoW really not having a server wide community due to cross server stuff, server xfer options, etc didn't often communicate such things. Sadly...if someone said something about such things or complained...they were then trolled in chat.
People are more likely to act a fool in a game where they have ways to reset their rep or restart and be at cap again in a month than in a game where they don't have those options and getting to cap takes much longer.
Try again Nari.. NO way you did any dungeon before 15th? The dungeons have LEVEL requirements.. So you telling me you did no quest for 15 levels? and was gear ready for Deadmines with no one carrying your? Plus NO way you earned more XP doing dungeons from 1-70 anyways.. the wait time for queueing up wouldn't make it feasable.. You would be better off questing.. I tried queuing in those early levels.. many times after 30 minutes of waiting I would just log off or give up..
I don't mean to interject, but dude griefing in dungeons in WoW is tragicly easy. People can/do randomly pull large groups while mid fight, afk follow, not do their job, etc. The kick feature is so broken that griefing is actually quite doable.
Speaking of adding something useful to the discussion......
I asked earlier and would really like to know how you would handle the following in a 'modern' camping game:
1. Would mobs at camps drop loot....and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (people farming bosses)
2. Would mobs drop quest items.... and if so, how would you prevent overcamping? (guilds locking down a camp so all their members get the quest item effectively preventing all others from obtaining it)
3. Would you have enough camps for every group? Meaning, if you had 300 groups on average a night in a level range, would you have at least 300 camps of equal 'benefits' (xp, loot, skill-ups) available? How?
4. How would you ensure that everyone who wanted a 'camp' got one?
5. Would some paying customers just be s.o.l.? How would you explain that to a customer and still take their money? "Sorry we don't have enough camps for all groups...suck it up....and thanks for the 15 bucks each month"?
I'm not talking about cry babies and loot whores, I'm talking structural. How do you structure the game so that everyone paying for it has access to the gameplay you are touting. I mean, that is what we are paying for right? To play the game?
They aren't forgetting, they are giving up.
Think about this from a lore perspective. Think about any fantasy story/movie you know of. I bet there is at least one 'adventure' where the 'heros' have to 'escape' - and their attackers chase them, but finally 'give up'.
Rubber banding mobs is a perfectly plausible design for a fantasy adventure.
Sometimes a group of orcs just wants you to get off their lawn - they aren't necessarily interested in pursuing you to the ends of the earth because you walked too close to their camp.
I agree with KBishop - anyone who doesn't think you cannot grief in WoW obviously hasn't played with a huntard in a pug from lvl 15 - 89.
I partly agree with you - you have to do quests to be ready for lvl 15 and dungeons.
But I disagree, if you are a healer or a tank, it is quicker to use the dungeon finder to lvl up. Tanks are almost insta-pop and healers generally don't have to wait more than 5 min. However, if you are dps, you need to quest in the down time waiting for the df to pop.
If a tank or healer uses the dungeon finder almost exclusively - they will have huge gaping holes in their gear. Which amount to a hill of beans compared to how easy the content is. I have a lvl 40 sham who has no head piece still - yet the dungeons are absolutely no problem despite my mish-mash of gear.
At lvl 85 though, it would be folly not to do the questlines to be ready for the dungeons. At that point, you need to fill in the gaps in your armor or you will start failing dungeons.
Most of the 'gear' issues pre WoTLK dungeons are circumvented by the heirlooms. There is nearly an entire heirloom set available, including trinkets. If you have access too them, there is almost entirely no reason not to use them and every reason to use them (they are substantially better than anything available). And even then, most of the dungeons have been revamped to offer better gear to carry you for most of the levels. You can stay fully geared and well geared by JUST lfg all the way up to like level 90. It will be monotonous as all hell but its quite easily doable
TY Z, as I said in previous post I would love to see a mixture of GW2 and EQ zones.. some camping along with roaming task NPC..Some of the GW2 dynamic events almost trigger often enough to be considered a camp and everyone in the zone loves them.. Every time I log on and in that zone, groups are farming the DE's like a camp..
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