There are many reasons why the Train to zone is bad design.
one has been alluded to, it allows other players to intentially grief others. And as stated the only way tolose the mob was to exploit the zone limitation. Another major one was that other players who had nothing to do with you, or your group and were signficantly removed from your group would suffer and very often die when your train hit them. We laugh about that now, but it was a real pain in the butt, and that happend all the time. I dont' think I played a single session where there weren't dozens of "train to zones, choo choo, coming through" an hour.
Yes sometimes there were amusing, it was still bad design.
edit - I don't necessarily fault EQ, or UO, or really any of those old games for bad designs. As you say they were the first, they really didn't know what bad design was yet. Now we know, people in games are jerks, not all, maybe not most, but enough. If there is a way to ruin someone else's game experience, people will do it, if there is a way to destroy something, they'll do it. If there is a way to hack, exploit something they'll do it. Again, perhaps not a lot, but enough.
I read someone around here someone saying that maybe 1 person of 100 in UO was a pk griefer. I won't argue it at alll, the problem is that that one person will gank 60/100 of those others. So whether there is one or a lot, the result is the same... a lot of griefing.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by ragz45 What bothers me is when my friends and I choose to grind mobs for XP in a group in your random WoW-Clone now days. And we are just blowing everyone out of the water who is leveling via quests. So the questers start bitching on the forums that they can't keep up with people group aoe grinding mobs, while them themselves are solo questing. Quickly after that, mob XP gets nerfed into the ground, so much so that grinding mobs is just useless.
Where did that happen?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There are many reasons why the Train to zone is bad design. OK, I'll take notes
one has been alluded to, it allows other players to intentially grief others. I played EQ from the start till LDoN and never once was I witness to intentional training.. In FACT I know that GM's were very active to police all inappropriate conduct by players.. And as stated the only way tolose the mob was to exploit the zone limitation. Another major one was that other players who had nothing to do with you, or your group and were signficantly removed from your group would suffer and very often die when your train hit them. We laugh about that now, but it was a real pain in the butt, and that happend all the time. I dont' think I played a single session where there weren't dozens of "train to zones, choo choo, coming through" an hour. I played on Rodcet for years and never witness the number of trains you said occurred.. The only time I ever saw train issues were limited zones, such as BB, CB, VL and KC to name a few.. There will be times that people might get caught by a train and sometimes "shit happens".. In my opinion playing an online MMO should take into consideration of other's mistakes effecting your game play.. If people want to play in a bubble, then maybe MMO's aren't for them and they should stick with carebear console games..
Yes sometimes there were amusing, it was still bad design. IN YOUR OPINION
edit - I don't necessarily fault EQ, or UO, or really any of those old games for bad designs. As you say they were the first, they really didn't know what bad design was yet. Now we know, people in games are jerks, not all, maybe not most, but enough. If there is a way to ruin someone else's game experience, people will do it, if there is a way to destroy something, they'll do it. If there is a way to hack, exploit something they'll do it. Again, perhaps not a lot, but enough. What you really have a problem is then is NOT the game design but how player actions are policed.. I will agree that if actions go unchecked, people will find ways to grieve and abuse a game design.. Whether it be causing trains, or using exploits (which still run rampant today) the game co. need to police their customers.. IMO, most game companies are too lazy and cheap to have GM's or similar babysit the players, but alter the game mechanics to restrict such actions..
I read someone around here someone saying that maybe 1 person of 100 in UO was a pk griefer. I won't argue it at alll, the problem is that that one person will gank 60/100 of those others. So whether there is one or a lot, the result is the same... a lot of griefing. I can promise you as a FACT.. If such a person was around in the early days of EQ with active GM's they did not stay as customers long.. I still have former GM's of EverQuest on my facebook page that I keep in touch with and talk to.. Even WoW has nerfed their GM dept.. BTW, most of the GM staff in WoW and EQ in the beginning were NOT paid, they were respected veteran players that volunteered..
So.. I fail to see bad design here.. BUT even if you want to use trains as your excuse to restrict camping.. GUESS what? Just make it so that trains will NOT effect players if not tagged.... PROBLEM solved Next..
Originally posted by Zeppelin4 Call me crazy but I miss those train to zones. We had some epic battles at the zone line clearing out some trains.
They definitely could provide some fun times. That doesn't change the fact that it was bad design.
I am mixed on this. I liked that you could not just run "out of range of aggro" and could even pick up more Mobs on your way, yet the exploit was there for anyone to use. Fansy the Bard comes to mind
I think it was a good idea, but like you said, poorly implemented.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random..
Did you not read correctly.. That list of rares are NOT random rare RAID bosses.. Those rares that you're listing are used in their achievement count and many times can be solo'd or treamed up to defeat.. Back in my day as a hunter, many of use used to go after and try to tame them due to their special skills that are now NERFED to high heaven.. PS.. none on that list are inside "instanced" dungeons.. I never did get my spirit leopard pet that was a rare spawn.. BUT it was never a group or raid spawn.. I"m talking rare spawns like Talendor or other 20, 30 and 40 man targets.. Lets stay on the same page here, and not try to spin what I say to mean something else.. Next
I do not enjoy camping and I am glad it is a thing of the past. I spent far too many useless hours spawn/item camoing in DAoC. Then to level a weapon to camp certain mob spawns and fight over them, not fun in any way, shape, or form.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Having a random rare spawn inside an instance is NOT random..
Did you not read correctly.. That list of rares are NOT random rare RAID bosses.. Those rares that you're listing are used in their achievement count and many times can be solo'd or treamed up to defeat.. Back in my day as a hunter, many of use used to go after and try to tame them due to their special skills that are now NERFED to high heaven.. PS.. none on that list are inside "instanced" dungeons.. I never did get my spirit leopard pet that was a rare spawn.. BUT it was never a group or raid spawn.. I"m talking rare spawns like Talendor or other 20, 30 and 40 man targets.. Lets stay on the same page here, and not try to spin what I say to mean something else.. Next
All I see is that like many other times in this thread, you deform or change the meaning of words to fit your agenda, of course with the little arrogant "next" at the end. It seems that you can't accept that the very vast majority doesn't want camping back, and that the thread didn't produce the result you were expecting.
I feel like part of the problem that happens in games today is that all content is a shortcut to the end result. Rush through quest hubs and blow through quest mobs so that you can reach max level. By the time you reach end level, there remains a limited amount of things to do.
In EQ camping was an opportunity to slow down, meet new people, chat and most importantly learn about the game. When you are sitting in one spot with a group you learn how cc works, what other class abilities are, when to taunt, when to attack, etc etc. Rather than rushing through content, you have a chance to learn how to become a better player and work as a team.
I understand that some people abhor camping and thats completely fine. Its not a mechanic that everyone appreciates. What I dont understand is why its inclusion as a potential gameplay option is so offensive to some people, particularly if camping was instigated not as a requirement to achieve loot but just as another way to play the game.
If camping is optional, why does it bother so many people?
No one I know was asking or demanding that camping be the only form of XP advancement, but give us campers an option.. I would love it if WoW would make a dedicated server in which the code was changed to allow camping.. Those that don't like camping do not need to create a toon on that server, and for those of us that wish it, we can.... I don't see why so many are combative to keep some of us in having enjoyment we like. As if one server on the WoW network is going to bankrupt them.. LOL
One of the things I miss the most with camping is the loss of enjoyment from dungeons like EQ's Permafrost Keep.. It was next to impossible to solo dungeons because of all the adds.. It was very rewarding for the group I was in to work our way into a certain area of the dungeon and set up.. Camping the croc in upper guk for my gator leggings was more rewarding then anything I ever did since.. I miss good old dungeon crawls like that.. I wonder why devs don't make zones like that anymore for open world play?
Originally posted by Rydeson One of the things I miss the most with camping is the loss of enjoyment from dungeons like EQ's Permafrost Keep.. It was next to impossible to solo dungeons because of all the adds.. It was very rewarding for the group I was in to work our way into a certain area of the dungeon and set up.. Camping the croc in upper guk for my gator leggings was more rewarding then anything I ever did since.. I miss good old dungeon crawls like that.. I wonder why devs don't make zones like that anymore for open world play?
This is another example of gameplay revolving around camping. It took a group to clear you through the dungeon to your desired camp location and there was no going back unless the entire group wanted to clear mobs back to the exit, you evacuated or you died. If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.
This was indeed a challenge. Modern mmos seem to have taken out most of the risk/reward component, which to me is unfortunate. Who cares if EQ is and old game and that alot of its best features where unintentional from the developers standpoint. Games today are so stringent and overly planned, that there is no room for players to forge their own adventures or experiences. If developers could bring some of these components that were enjoyable in 2000 back to the table with a fresh, modern perspective, we would all benefit.
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
How is a different design makes train good or bad?
Emergent gameplay does not equate fun. Ganking is pretty much emergent gameplay too (in fact, probably not expected by the original designers).
Well designed rides can be fun, particularly if you only go through it once. That is pretty much proven (for many) since it is a pretty standard video game design in many genre (including MMOs).
If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.
This was indeed a challenge.
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.
In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
You know as well.. Dealing with trains, or adds was an art if you had the right class in your group.. There were times when "shit" happens and our bard or chanter has to earn their keep... Dealing with adds rocked, Lord knows that I as a druid did plenty of parking and healing at the same time.. Thing is.. When classes like chanters, bards and druids, etc used their class defining abilities to take care of multiple adds, those skills were too OP for the PvP gang.. So.. IF WoW in it's current form had trains, things could get ugly because many of the classes no longer have any skills to deal with "OOOOPS"..
I miss having CC classes in WoW.. My Warlock loved a lot of the BC expansion.. I heard rumors that when Catclysm came out they tried to put CC back in, but many cried nerf and went back to the holy trinity model..
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
How is a different design makes train good or bad?
Emergent gameplay does not equate fun. Ganking is pretty much emergent gameplay too (in fact, probably not expected by the original designers).
Well designed rides can be fun, particularly if you only go through it once. That is pretty much proven (for many) since it is a pretty standard video game design in many genre (including MMOs).
Why don't you play Tic Tac Toe anymore? Because it's so predictable and boring, most children give it up by age 7.. Some of us feel that pre-designed themepark rides are the same thing, just prettier graphics.. It's why I don't play Pong anymore or Pac Man.. Sorry, I know the pattern too well and Pac-Man is no longer a challenge...... Next..
If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.
This was indeed a challenge.
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.
In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.
I can only agree.
Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".
Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam, to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious.
So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times.. Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses?
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by Vocadi If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.This was indeed a challenge.
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before. I can only agree.
Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".
Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam, to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious.
There is a very fine line between adding tedium and adding a time sink that pulls you into the game. I think it's the difference between having to hoof it through a new zone, and having to hoof it through a zone you've been through two or three times.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times.. Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses?
Not hard mode raids. Those are done by a few percentage of the players, and often takes weeks, if not months to crack.
Plus, it is not tedious if the dungeon is randomly generated.
And, whether an instanced dungeon is tedious or not, has nothing to do with backtracking *is* tedious. Devs should find ways to make games tedious, and go to some other design and not go back to backtracking and camping.
For example, STO leveling up missions .. are all instanced .. but you do it only once. Now that is not tedious.
Last time I had a camp fest was for rare pets in WoW for my main hunter for hourse, it was horrible, although felt great when the creature spawned and I tamed it. That said I don't want camping back in the sense you sit and wait for hours on end to play the game or experience rewarding/fun content
I do like rare creatures, and would like to see them implemented in a random spawn method that cant simply be camped by a single person, like near impossible to wait out and camp a creature or event. My favorite on the OP list is #5, like a tower defense or enemy waves event camp would be fun as long as it happens regularly enough (Under 2 hours) or
IMO from some of the comments, camping mobs for rewards is not some amazing gift or mastery. Its a time sink punishment that rewards people that have too much time on their hands, and multiple screens to ward off the boredom of camping with forum lurking, youtube, or other entertainment while they sit logged into a game and just afk camp.
If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.
This was indeed a challenge.
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.
In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.
I can only agree.
Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".
Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam, to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious. I'm also a veteran, possibly since a longer time than many, and I don't remember grinding mobs to level as a fun and interesting activity past the first 30 minutes. It becomes quickly repetitive and boring, and therefore tedious.
Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.
And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow. Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.
It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.
Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.
And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow. Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.
It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.
You don't need to go back to old and failed ideas like camping.
There are other ideas to get rid of tedium. For example, random generated dungeons & mob abilities (like that in D3) keeps combat fresh and fun. Now it obviously is not as good as a new hand design dungeon for every new play-through, but a step in the right direction.
Camping is horrible. Questing with repetition is better, but still not optimal. Questing with NO repetition is best but expansive to do. Some random dungeon/mobs is somewhere in between.
Throw in a difficulty slider to keep up the challenge will also help.
Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
Hey Nari, what EQ server did you play on, and when did you play the most? 2001? How great EQ was definitely depended on the server you chose, and when you were there. Some servers, I heard, just sucked.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.
I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting..
Comments
There are many reasons why the Train to zone is bad design.
one has been alluded to, it allows other players to intentially grief others. And as stated the only way tolose the mob was to exploit the zone limitation. Another major one was that other players who had nothing to do with you, or your group and were signficantly removed from your group would suffer and very often die when your train hit them. We laugh about that now, but it was a real pain in the butt, and that happend all the time. I dont' think I played a single session where there weren't dozens of "train to zones, choo choo, coming through" an hour.
Yes sometimes there were amusing, it was still bad design.
edit - I don't necessarily fault EQ, or UO, or really any of those old games for bad designs. As you say they were the first, they really didn't know what bad design was yet. Now we know, people in games are jerks, not all, maybe not most, but enough. If there is a way to ruin someone else's game experience, people will do it, if there is a way to destroy something, they'll do it. If there is a way to hack, exploit something they'll do it. Again, perhaps not a lot, but enough.
I read someone around here someone saying that maybe 1 person of 100 in UO was a pk griefer. I won't argue it at alll, the problem is that that one person will gank 60/100 of those others. So whether there is one or a lot, the result is the same... a lot of griefing.
Where did that happen?
So.. I fail to see bad design here.. BUT even if you want to use trains as your excuse to restrict camping.. GUESS what? Just make it so that trains will NOT effect players if not tagged.... PROBLEM solved
Next..
I think it was a good idea, but like you said, poorly implemented.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Did you not read correctly.. That list of rares are NOT random rare RAID bosses.. Those rares that you're listing are used in their achievement count and many times can be solo'd or treamed up to defeat.. Back in my day as a hunter, many of use used to go after and try to tame them due to their special skills that are now NERFED to high heaven.. PS.. none on that list are inside "instanced" dungeons.. I never did get my spirit leopard pet that was a rare spawn.. BUT it was never a group or raid spawn.. I"m talking rare spawns like Talendor or other 20, 30 and 40 man targets.. Lets stay on the same page here, and not try to spin what I say to mean something else.. Next
What? can you translate that for me.. thank you
I feel like part of the problem that happens in games today is that all content is a shortcut to the end result. Rush through quest hubs and blow through quest mobs so that you can reach max level. By the time you reach end level, there remains a limited amount of things to do.
In EQ camping was an opportunity to slow down, meet new people, chat and most importantly learn about the game. When you are sitting in one spot with a group you learn how cc works, what other class abilities are, when to taunt, when to attack, etc etc. Rather than rushing through content, you have a chance to learn how to become a better player and work as a team.
I understand that some people abhor camping and thats completely fine. Its not a mechanic that everyone appreciates. What I dont understand is why its inclusion as a potential gameplay option is so offensive to some people, particularly if camping was instigated not as a requirement to achieve loot but just as another way to play the game.
If camping is optional, why does it bother so many people?
Exactly Vocadi.. Beautifully said..
No one I know was asking or demanding that camping be the only form of XP advancement, but give us campers an option.. I would love it if WoW would make a dedicated server in which the code was changed to allow camping.. Those that don't like camping do not need to create a toon on that server, and for those of us that wish it, we can.... I don't see why so many are combative to keep some of us in having enjoyment we like. As if one server on the WoW network is going to bankrupt them.. LOL
Good old memories camping spots and pvping for them.
Neocron, MU, L2 lots of games.
Was fun.
+1
This is another example of gameplay revolving around camping. It took a group to clear you through the dungeon to your desired camp location and there was no going back unless the entire group wanted to clear mobs back to the exit, you evacuated or you died. If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.
This was indeed a challenge. Modern mmos seem to have taken out most of the risk/reward component, which to me is unfortunate. Who cares if EQ is and old game and that alot of its best features where unintentional from the developers standpoint. Games today are so stringent and overly planned, that there is no room for players to forge their own adventures or experiences. If developers could bring some of these components that were enjoyable in 2000 back to the table with a fresh, modern perspective, we would all benefit.
Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?
To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?
Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
How is a different design makes train good or bad?
Emergent gameplay does not equate fun. Ganking is pretty much emergent gameplay too (in fact, probably not expected by the original designers).
Well designed rides can be fun, particularly if you only go through it once. That is pretty much proven (for many) since it is a pretty standard video game design in many genre (including MMOs).
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.
In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.
You know as well.. Dealing with trains, or adds was an art if you had the right class in your group.. There were times when "shit" happens and our bard or chanter has to earn their keep... Dealing with adds rocked, Lord knows that I as a druid did plenty of parking and healing at the same time.. Thing is.. When classes like chanters, bards and druids, etc used their class defining abilities to take care of multiple adds, those skills were too OP for the PvP gang.. So.. IF WoW in it's current form had trains, things could get ugly because many of the classes no longer have any skills to deal with "OOOOPS"..
I miss having CC classes in WoW.. My Warlock loved a lot of the BC expansion.. I heard rumors that when Catclysm came out they tried to put CC back in, but many cried nerf and went back to the holy trinity model..
Why don't you play Tic Tac Toe anymore? Because it's so predictable and boring, most children give it up by age 7.. Some of us feel that pre-designed themepark rides are the same thing, just prettier graphics.. It's why I don't play Pong anymore or Pac Man.. Sorry, I know the pattern too well and Pac-Man is no longer a challenge...... Next..
So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times.. Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses?
I can only agree.
Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".
Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam, to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious.
There is a very fine line between adding tedium and adding a time sink that pulls you into the game. I think it's the difference between having to hoof it through a new zone, and having to hoof it through a zone you've been through two or three times.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Not hard mode raids. Those are done by a few percentage of the players, and often takes weeks, if not months to crack.
Plus, it is not tedious if the dungeon is randomly generated.
And, whether an instanced dungeon is tedious or not, has nothing to do with backtracking *is* tedious. Devs should find ways to make games tedious, and go to some other design and not go back to backtracking and camping.
For example, STO leveling up missions .. are all instanced .. but you do it only once. Now that is not tedious.
Last time I had a camp fest was for rare pets in WoW for my main hunter for hourse, it was horrible, although felt great when the creature spawned and I tamed it. That said I don't want camping back in the sense you sit and wait for hours on end to play the game or experience rewarding/fun content
I do like rare creatures, and would like to see them implemented in a random spawn method that cant simply be camped by a single person, like near impossible to wait out and camp a creature or event. My favorite on the OP list is #5, like a tower defense or enemy waves event camp would be fun as long as it happens regularly enough (Under 2 hours) or
IMO from some of the comments, camping mobs for rewards is not some amazing gift or mastery. Its a time sink punishment that rewards people that have too much time on their hands, and multiple screens to ward off the boredom of camping with forum lurking, youtube, or other entertainment while they sit logged into a game and just afk camp.
Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.
And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow. Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.
It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.
You don't need to go back to old and failed ideas like camping.
There are other ideas to get rid of tedium. For example, random generated dungeons & mob abilities (like that in D3) keeps combat fresh and fun. Now it obviously is not as good as a new hand design dungeon for every new play-through, but a step in the right direction.
Camping is horrible. Questing with repetition is better, but still not optimal. Questing with NO repetition is best but expansive to do. Some random dungeon/mobs is somewhere in between.
Throw in a difficulty slider to keep up the challenge will also help.
Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
Hey Nari, what EQ server did you play on, and when did you play the most? 2001? How great EQ was definitely depended on the server you chose, and when you were there. Some servers, I heard, just sucked.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting..