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PVP only games are guaranteed to fail

RomanjisanRomanjisan Washington, DCPosts: 53Member

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

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Comments

  • zonjimasenzonjimasen AomoriPosts: 30Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

     

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

    I was taking you seriously right until this part. I smell trollbait.

  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    League of legends, the most played game of all time, is PvP, 99% of the gaming population would say it is PvP. You are a player fighting other players. Your argument of it being PvE because of it being co-op means nothing what so ever as every MMO that ever had PvP did not make it a solo affair only.  The most played MMO of all time, WoW, had a very heavy PvP element with it's open world pvp faction system.  People like PvP, people hate games that suck like  the previous Warhammer online.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon

    I agree....

    I hate losing, why would they even try to make a game that challenges you? Its not a smart business model... PvE is the best way to go because people like winning (its a little known fact guys).

    For example, my church is really popular because everybody gets to go to Heaven no matter how much we lie, cheat and steal. Now I understand that there are some churches that would say it wrong to do these things but I would never attend these churches and certainly not put anything in the offering plate. Who would start a church like that when you could just start a church where nobody has to change and everybody gets their blessings??? Wouldnt that be that be the most profitable and obtain the most members???

    LoL is the most popular game in the world and the reason why is the Player vs A.I mode. Who would want to fight another player thats going to pick an over-powered champ and harass and cheat you out of experience and CS? The A.I in League of leagends are SO FUN and they let you obtain all the CS you want. They shouldnt even have e-sports, they should put these so-called best players in the world against A.I opponents... that would be a great thing to watch.

    /sarcasm

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  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,697Member Uncommon

    I agree with the OP.

    I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

    I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

    Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

    I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

  • PsychoticHamsterPsychoticHamster Brooklyn, NYPosts: 97Member Common
    What about Darkfall? The original came out in 2009 I think with subs, it kept going and the devs even revamped it and released DFUW earlier this year. No perfect game by far, but its a PvP only(excluding crafting) that has stayed with their original model, and if I had to guess will continue to do so. There's also Mortal Online, which has been around a while and has kept its sub price. What people consider failure in the MMO genre is warped. They look at WoW and assume that subs in the millions is success, when in reality an MMO is doing really well if it can retain 100,000+ recurring subs. And I say recurring because SWTOR had a few million subs at launch, but they very quickly lost a majority of their playerbase. For MMO devs, it better to create a game for a niche market that you know will stay and play your game, than trying to do it all and go after multiple playerbases that spreads resources to create a good game thin.

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  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member

    LOL sad man.

    Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

  • ZulmalukaZulmaluka BelgradePosts: 18Member
    actually i dunno what ur talking about, war was immense fun for me and my friends, pvp was awesome, both open world and indoors, cant complain about that game execpt for buggy graphics ( people used to invest a lot of money for pc and still had lag spikes caused by really bad optimizations). Used to play it for a long time , and then after for few months in seperate bits, was fun times and memories in my opinion.
  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    To my knowledge, Dark Age of Camelot is mainly PVP (or as they prefer to call it; RvR) and that's still immensely popular. Also, define for me what you mean as 'popular'.

     

    A game does not need to attract WoW numbers to be 'popular' or even 'profitable'. All it needs is a steady playerbase and enough cash income to exceed their expenses to be 'profitable.' It certainly doesn't hurt that this is Warhammer 40k, which has been a lot more popular for Games Workshop than fantasy for a long time.

    And this game isn't PvP only anyway, there is dungeon type content planned. It's focus is on PvP true, but what else would you expect from the 40k license?

  • Sive0nSive0n Hell 3º dungeon on the rightPosts: 28Member
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

    Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

    When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

    Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

     I honestly don't know how to say this without being too harsh, but you're making huge assumptions based on your lack of experience(because you clearly dislike PvP), faulty reasoning or both.

     First you are assuming that people only buy things if they are winners. Players buy things for several reasons and most of them have nothing to do with winner or losing(with the exception being the p2win games):

    • they make them look better. (aesthetics)
    • gives them access to content. (subscriptions and downloadable content)
    • gives them an edge versus their opponent. (P2W games)
    • saves them time. (boosters)
     Second you assume that just because its PvE you are going to win. If the content is that easy then that will put off most of players because there is no challenge, who will not only not waste money they'll just quit the game entirely.
     
     Third you assume that there are more losers than winners. There cant be winner without losers, ergo its a theoretical 50-50 split. For every new player that starts playing a loser becomes a winner and for every loser that quits the game a winner becomes a loser.
     
     Fourth you assume people don't like to PvP because its "unrelaxing entertainment". Humans are competitive by nature, that's what we did when we need to scavenge/hunt for food in the old days and that is what happens now a days in every part of your life from being graded at school to watching/playing sports. Competition is what PvP is all about and while in general most PvE players like to PvP the reverse isn't always true. Even in PvE content in MMOs there is a good amount of competition, like who's the best [insert your role here].

     To sum it up it just seems like YOU don't like to PvP because you keep loosing. That doesn't necessarily mean that you are bad at playing, but rather that you are not playing at your own level. You cant expect to play versus better players and not lose most of the times.

     

     PS: Why you give LoL as an example when you were clearly talking about MMOs in beyond me. LoL is a multiplayer game with a game/room lobby not a MMO, and to say it is PvE oriented is ridiculous because people who play versus bots are a minority and you still end up being ranked by the system making it a little competitive.

  • gekidogekido n/a, MAPosts: 64Member Uncommon

    Have to love those open ended statements like "PVP is not popular"

    I knew I shouldn't have read this stupid thread.

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 817Member Uncommon

    whine much?

     

    -edited for font size

  • craftseekercraftseeker kynetonPosts: 844Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    whine much?

     

    -edited for font size

    Yep, bit much for me too.  This IP (Warhammer 40k) is an obvious match for a PvP game it would stun me if someone tried to make a PvE game using this IP.  PvP does have a following and games made for a PvP audience are not guaranteed to fail.

    I say this as a dedicated care bear who would never play a PvP game.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I can't even come up with a decent response. Nearly nothing in the OP is true. Either the OP is misinformed, or they have executed some excellent sarcastic satire.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I agree with the OP.

    I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

    I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

    Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

    I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

    Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

    Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

    When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

    Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

    ROFL PVP is not popular I hope your trolling  , what a joke, UO, EVE, Darkfall, MO, Xsyon, all still Online, Asheron call has been online since he late l90's and  and guess what server is the most popular you got it, THE PVP one!!

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xalvi

    LOL sad man.

    Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

    The PVP was the only good thing about it........

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member
    If it means anything, I have at least 10 friends who have mentioned occasionally getting on LoL to fight the AI...  So it's entirely possible I think? That a surprisingly large percentage of the players are casual users who fight the AI every so often. Idk, this is based on partial ignorance, just my personal anecdote :o
  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYPosts: 836Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by Romanjisan

    Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

    When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

    Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

    If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

    ROFL PVP is not popular I hope your trolling  , what a joke, UO, EVE, Darkfall, MO, Xsyon, all still Online, Asheron call has been online since he late l90's and  and guess what server is the most popular you got it, THE PVP one!!

    EVE is the only game in that list I believe that has a healthy sized player base by today's standards. Relative to other themepark/PvE oriented MMO's, the games that focus strictly on PvP tend to be extremely niche (save LoL). This doesn't mean that these games are failures like the OP is claiming, but if they're after a niche audience, it's inherently a relatively unpopular format.

  • sado2020sado2020 elizabethtown, KYPosts: 112Member

    If anything, to me anyways and what others have said, the PVP in WAR was the best part of the game and it was pretty much everything else that drove me away.

     

    I know PVP isn't popular among many, I don't blame them for my PVE minded friends they use games like MMOs to escape any sort of stress, a lot don't even raid in games.  Even for myself with ever more being put on my plate I find myself wary of Open World PVP. 

    But to many that thrill of danger does make the game.  And as some said in other threads that sort of danger makes dull tasks, like mat gathering or daily quests, more exciting to them.  Some of my fondest WoW moments was gathering leather and being set upon and having the tables turned on my would be attackers or jumping into a battle ground and turning a losing game into a solid victory. 

     

    I would usually agree with someone when they say PVP isn't as popular as PVE in mmos but I would argue that the gap in the margins isn't as wide as some believe

    Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO

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  • StMichaelStMichael Fullerton, CAPosts: 183Member

    There is an art in every form of PvP that can determine the success or failure of a game, and that is the art of making losing fun. In PvE this is largely unnecessary as you as a player can try again with new strategies against a constant enemy, or maybe go gear up and make the fight that much easier. In PvP however, it's entirely possible to concentrate the fun had by everyone in the gameplay rather than the end result.

    A comparative example: World of Warcraft vs Team Fortress 2. In World of Warcraft, PvP battles can be determined entirely by gear, class, or team composition. If an undergeared player, no matter how skilled, went up against a better geared player, even if he had a situational and/or class advantage, he would be murdered with little chance to do anything meaningful. No fun is had by the loser, and little is likely had by the winner. All enjoyment is derived from the outcome. Even if the players are of equal gear and skill, things like class balance and team composition can sap enjoyment from an otherwise good fight that you end up losing.

    Contrast that with Team Fortress 2. In the moment to moment gameplay, every kill is a small victory. In the end, one side ultimately wins, but players have a great deal of freedom to use their skill to raise their score, even if they lose. It doesn't always end that way, but the potential is still there.

    Besides, this is Warhammer, did you really think we were going to be farming fallen Primarchs and making golden throne runs?

  • OniFeeZOniFeeZ CairnsPosts: 48Member

    It's funny you mention about player skill vs gear for wow. First of all, I agree, but I remember once I came back to the game after Wrath hit so many moons ago, and not really knowing what to do, I played my warrior that I had since pretty much release. I went into Alterac valley and consistently beat a better equipped player 4 times in their base when I was guarding a flag to burn down the Watch tower in a one on one.

    Why did I beat him? Because I was more skilled. I knew he would beat the crap out of me in a straight DPS race no matter what due to the differences in gear, but I also knew that as a warrior I probably had the more experience, having played the character since release. I waited until I was in execute range and then disarmed my opponent, allowing me to kill  him 4 times before he could get help and beat me. It was my most memorable kill and your story (while true generally speaking) made me wax nostalgic.

    From what I remember of WAR, gear isn't as important (albeit important), and in SWTOR there's a happy medium as well in battle grounds now due bolstered expertise type stat (I can't remember what it's called, I'm a PvE'er!)

     

    It's important to remember though that there will be PvE content in this game, how this'll work in end-game will be interesting.

  • klagmireklagmire fenton, MIPosts: 94Member

    Your soo wrong, you dont even know your wrong. PVP games are the most popular games out there. Be it on PS3, xbox, the COD series BF3. These are the target markets they want, because they are HUGE.

    Thats why planetside 2 is so successfull, I know it will be upsetting for some people, but this is why we have been seeing such turmoil in the MMO markets and PVP sandboxes are making a comeback.

    I play both console and computer, so dont say the genres are unrelated. The MMO on computer want to steel away those BF3 and COD console players in one big sandbox game.Like SOE did with PS2.

    Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2. Still playing SWG.

  • SmoeySmoey CambridgePosts: 572Member Uncommon
    Planetside 2 seems to be doing well...

    (\ /) ?
    ( . .)
    c('')('')

  • spoononespoonone san diego, CAPosts: 39Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xalvi

    LOL sad man.

    Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

    Warhammer Online is not the same game as Warhammer 40k.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    If this game is anything like the Warhammer 40.000 universe then all the battles where the majority are on the losing side will have earned the bloody loss... Christ not even space marine deathwatch specialists can drop into a ork base and reasonably expect to slaughter everything, they might get allot of people granted but once the nobs and mechanized units mobilize they're fuuuuuuucked and by the end of the battle the resources invested to resources lost will most likely favor the orks as well.

     

    Also the OP is blatantly wrong when he says the game will be PVP only... the Tyranids have been specifically withheld as a playable race to supply PVE content for players who want a break from frontline action and indeed repelling tyranid incursions will be as critical as any player faction incursion, possibly even more so because once a tyranid bioball gets going... it's not gonna end well for anyone be they PVPer or PVEer.

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