Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
They are staples for WoW clones. It would be foolish to clone WoW. A random dungeon system and a global auction house would absolutely destroy any game claiming to be a sandbox, which this game does.
And if you want a map, go and download one or print it out. If you're going to have your map anyway, don't ruin it for the rest of us. I'm fine with a STATIC map, but there shouldn't be any GPS auto trackers and glowing waypoints. That does far more harm to the game than good and destroys immersion more than almost any other feature. People start playing just by looking at their maps instead of the game world. That KILLS the game, unlike a LFG window.
They're not creating dragon concept art because the game is NOT going to have raids. Raids aren't the issue. Linear instanced raids that you get teleported to are an issue.
Voice chat is going to be integrated in game, like Planetside 2 (Local Say VOIP and group only VOIP). Okay, so? I never objected to it.
I wouldn't expect the LFG window to go away any time soon. And who said it should? But it shouldn't auto group you with people on another server and teleport you. That would mean this is a linear quest grinder game, and an antisocial one.
Auction house can go either way. It may be player run shops that you have to go to and see wears (i've seen that in some games), but it could also stick with the tried and true auction house UI. If there is a global auction house, this game CANNOT be a sandbox with any kind of meaningful player based econ. It simply does not work.
I do not want a mini map, but would like a cloth map for general locs and be able to buy a compass. I use to go up to west commonlands and get mine. Not all the vendors had one. I am kind of lack the directional gene.
Shorten the list considerably: anything that came along after 1999 is going to have plenty of critics. Particularly if Blizzard used it too.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on?
What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps. Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command. I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am. Let it display on the compass.
How does Voice chat or raids/dungeons kill immersion?
I follow the LFG window and Auction house. Instead of talking with a person face to face in a shop or asking them to join you on an adventure, you're using a UI.
But how does Audio kill immersion?
Does reading someone's /say chat in text kill immersion too? Because people don't open their mouth in real life and spit out text boxes.
And how does requiring a group of people or multiple groups of people kill immersion? Seems pretty realistic to me. Humans have a history of banding together to accomplish what 1 person alone can not.
I'm trying to follow you buddy but you lost me.
Most of my comment was meant to be sarcastic, and in response to the person that said maps kill immersion, but since you asked; I'll bite.
While I use voice chat, it does kill immersion to an extent. I mean seriously, you've got a 3 ft halfling female with a voice of a linebacker. How does that NOT kill immersion? I'm not a big roleplayer anymore, but it's difficult for me to imagine that every female character in-game has a booming baratone voice.
As far as dungeons and raids go, I don't mean the dungeons and raids themselves, I mean the click a button and randomly queue up and play with people that you've never met. That kills immersion.
Ah, cool. I read your comment as "Sigh -> here are some other things that kills immersion too! I didn't see any hints of sarcasm.
As for female characters with male voices, 40%+ of MMORPG gamers are girls. I'll take a guy voice roleplaying a girl over reading chat boxes any day.
In either case, it's a little off. Text boxes are not immersive and opposite gender voices on VOIP are not immersive, but one is a lot easier for people.... so I'll go with the lesser evil. People always complain about quiet / anti-social groups. Every game that has had integrated VOIP has been better for it in my experience.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
They are staples for WoW clones. It would be foolish to clone WoW. A random dungeon system and a global auction house would absolutely destroy any game claiming to be a sandbox, which this game does.
And if you want a map, go and download one or print it out. If you're going to have your map anyway, don't ruin it for the rest of us. I'm fine with a STATIC map, but there shouldn't be any GPS auto trackers and glowing waypoints. That does far more harm to the game than good and destroys immersion more than almost any other feature. People start playing just by looking at their maps instead of the game world. That KILLS the game, unlike a LFG window.
I'll start by saying that the guy was sarcastic, and didn't mean anything he wrote.
They're not creating dragon concept art because the game is NOT going to have raids. Raids aren't the issue. Linear instanced raids that you get teleported to are an issue.
He said raids, and didn't mention anything about linear or teleporting to them. Raids can have ranging difficulties and corresponding sized rewards and it can still be a sandbox. I would prefer that they don't "que up and teleport" to any dungeons or raids though.
Voice chat is going to be integrated in game, like Planetside 2 (Local Say VOIP and group only VOIP). Okay, so? I never objected to it.
The original person you responded to did, but it doesn't matter, everything he said was sarcastic.
I wouldn't expect the LFG window to go away any time soon. And who said it should? But it shouldn't auto group you with people on another server and teleport you. That would mean this is a linear quest grinder game, and an antisocial one.
The original person you quoted did. Again, it was a joke.
Auction house can go either way. It may be player run shops that you have to go to and see wears (i've seen that in some games), but it could also stick with the tried and true auction house UI. If there is a global auction house, this game CANNOT be a sandbox with any kind of meaningful player based econ. It simply does not work.
You shouldn't go too far with all this immersion business. A mini map is easy to ignore when you focus your attention on the game, while being a great help to navigate.
If the developers know how to properly design their UI so it is inconspicuous, there should be no loss of immersion. You could also ask for an option to turn it off if need be.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Shorten the list considerably: anything that came along after 1999 is going to have plenty of critics. Particularly if Blizzard used it too.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
Maps and mini-maps are fine. It's the maps and mini-maps filled with every single detail of the game world which is terrible. If you can navigate the entire game while staring at a map, why did you spend 4 years and countless $$$ for the graphics of a game where your entire playerbase is just sticking their noses in a map to get around instead of actually looking at the beautiful scenery.
Skyrim has a good map system, very little information is provided outside of fast travel locations. It gives you enough details so that you don't need to go online to print out a map (ala original EQ), but not too much information that you don't accidentally run past cool ruins or dungeons because you are busy staring at a map.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
I prefer to dont have a mini map in game, in my opinion it ruin the immersion in the game and the sense of exploration, particulary in a sandbox.
I would have only a general map of the zones that dont show where i m and my movement in real time (just a real map), a map that you have to buy somewhere and you dont have at start.
I think that the EQ sense heading skill would be great in a sandbox game.
I vote: NO
Novel concept, don't want it, CLOSE IT! I'm sure it'll be an option like everything for the UI in EQ games. Good God use your brains and stop crying about stupid crap that ruins your immersion. This is directed not at the OP per se but for all those that freak out about little things that the devs didn't incorporate just to piss on their "immersion" because we all know that games should be coded for every single individual's wants.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
You know, the bad stuff; all that stuff that completely dominated SOE for a decade.
Intelligent marketing, mostly. SOE was busy with "split and enrage our own player base right about the same time our competition is launching" (insane marketing).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by achesoma So lack of a mini map is what makes a sandbox now? LMAO!!! Man, these forums never cease to entertain me. I guess SWG wasn't a sandbox then.
Who the hell made that comment? Run along little troll.
(also, radar makes more sense in a sci fi setting, no?)
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Like I said, your opinions on what bad design are (because of your tastes and preferences), have nothing to do what actual bad or good designs are. You look at things with a mememe perspective. You don't sit back and take an objective designer's perspective on a game. Which is fine for talking about what you like and don't like in a game.
I didn't need any Map in EQ, I knew every zone by heart........................but I don't mind if there is one.
I say NO to minimap and YES to a generic map that you can edit yourself.
Agreed. A generic map that not only allows you to customize it and choose which locations to mark, but generates the generic land as you explore, would be perfect.
If there is a mini-map, that just kills the exploration factor. You aren't really exploring if you already can see exactly what is over the next hill on your little map in the corner. Actually relying on things like road signs, landmarks, etc. makes for a much better experience I think.
Another possibility I could see is if they had two different types of servers. A "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) server that didn't incorporate the mini-map or other things such as that and a "softcore/regular" server that allowed the use of a mini-map, etc.
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Like I said, your opinions on what bad design are
If you're going to play the "well that's your opinion dude!" then there's no point in having this discussion. You've ignored every single point I brought up, and refuse to believe there's anything objective. I guess you don't read game scores or movie reviews or listen to anyone who recommends a book?
There are certain things you can look at objectively. Objectively, WoW has self destructive game design, and anti social design for a genre that is supposed to be the most social.
I prefer to dont have a mini map in game, in my opinion it ruin the immersion in the game and the sense of exploration, particulary in a sandbox.
I would have only a general map of the zones that dont show where i m and my movement in real time (just a real map), a map that you have to buy somewhere and you dont have at start.
I think that the EQ sense heading skill would be great in a sandbox game.
I vote: NO
Novel concept, don't want it, CLOSE IT! I'm sure it'll be an option like everything for the UI in EQ games. Good God use your brains and stop crying about stupid crap that ruins your immersion. This is directed not at the OP per se but for all those that freak out about little things that the devs didn't incorporate just to piss on their "immersion" because we all know that games should be coded for every single individual's wants.
For me it isn't about immersion (well a little) but more so the no thought needed GPS mini-maps that detail every single thing in a 100 mile radius with zero effort.
Doesn't seem like many are against a world/zone map that can be as detailed as we or another can make it, but it's the GPS "I can't look 5 feet in front of my foot to see where a city is" type maps that are the problem.
Sure we can turn it off, but the guy next to me will magically see where every resource node or whatever is located, which is silly and not needed. Now if he took the time to note every single node as he sees them with his eye balls, cool, but things shouldn't just be handed over like they are in most games.
Many of us are looking for a challenge, maybe not as "hard" as EQ once/still is, but not as easy as most MMOs are today.
The reason so many games fail and can't hold on to players is they try to make it as easy as possible, which normally back fires because they are so easy they become boring. We need a challenge. Hopefully EQN will bring it.
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
I really don't like the world grind. It often seems used to describe what I call "killing monsters to become stronger".
I personally found Vanilla WoW to be a very good game, regardless of how popular it was. It was definitely very immersive, not sure what you mean (although if you are not into WarCraft you may not care as much). It was relatively social because you wanted groups in many situations in Vanilla. I'd constantly make groups just to kill mobs, do certain hard quests, do group quests, or as should be obvious, go to dungeons.
You can argue that it's less social or less immersive compared to another game that I admit I didn't really experience, but standing in its own right, Vanilla WoW was a solid game and I disagree that it was not immersive or social. If what WoW had was the worst aspects of EQ, where are the best aspects of EQ in EQII?
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Have you ever played Vanilla WoW? Not modern WoW. Vanilla WoW. It isn't exactly linear. You can do what you want. You can group or you can not group. You can make it as grindy or not as you want. And the quests were pretty interesting, most of them concerned the lore of the area.
It did take time to level, I'd give you that.
Vanilla WoW had many points of bad game design but you are failing to bring any of them up.
I don't like instancing either but it's an either or decision. Both have advantages.
Originally posted by sanshi44 I dont wanna see any maps at all personaly wel latleast non already made by the Devs, i wouldnt mind the ability to map out the place yourself kinda like how EQ1 had it when they added in maps, its fun when u can get lost on ur travels never know what gonna happen.
This. I'd prefer to see no maps at all. It really destroys any sense of mystery about the world when I can see exactly where everything is.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by Gallus85Originally posted by DavisFlightOriginally posted by GreezOriginally posted by Shadowguy64Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
Like I said, your opinions on what bad design are
If you're going to play the "well that's your opinion dude!" then there's no point in having this discussion. You've ignored every single point I brought up, and refuse to believe there's anything objective. I guess you don't read game scores or movie reviews or listen to anyone who recommends a book?
There are certain things you can look at objectively. Objectively, WoW has self destructive game design, and anti social design for a genre that is supposed to be the most social.
there are people that did like the things in mmo's that you say is bad design, its just your opinion, get over yourself.
in fact, wow has proven that there are more people that like that design than people that prefer the social aspect of mmo's
does that make the social aspect a bad design? according to your logic it kind of does.
people have different opinion of what is good and bad, just like i think UC will suffer from bad design and you clearly think it will be a good game.
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Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ah, cool. I read your comment as "Sigh -> here are some other things that kills immersion too! I didn't see any hints of sarcasm.
As for female characters with male voices, 40%+ of MMORPG gamers are girls. I'll take a guy voice roleplaying a girl over reading chat boxes any day.
In either case, it's a little off. Text boxes are not immersive and opposite gender voices on VOIP are not immersive, but one is a lot easier for people.... so I'll go with the lesser evil. People always complain about quiet / anti-social groups. Every game that has had integrated VOIP has been better for it in my experience.
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You shouldn't go too far with all this immersion business. A mini map is easy to ignore when you focus your attention on the game, while being a great help to navigate.
If the developers know how to properly design their UI so it is inconspicuous, there should be no loss of immersion. You could also ask for an option to turn it off if need be.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Blizzard only used the bad stuff. That's why their game has suffered for so long. If EQN can avoid using anything that Blizzard did, they'll be just fine.
How did Blizzard use the bad stuff?
Maps and mini-maps are fine. It's the maps and mini-maps filled with every single detail of the game world which is terrible. If you can navigate the entire game while staring at a map, why did you spend 4 years and countless $$$ for the graphics of a game where your entire playerbase is just sticking their noses in a map to get around instead of actually looking at the beautiful scenery.
Skyrim has a good map system, very little information is provided outside of fast travel locations. It gives you enough details so that you don't need to go online to print out a map (ala original EQ), but not too much information that you don't accidentally run past cool ruins or dungeons because you are busy staring at a map.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Novel concept, don't want it, CLOSE IT! I'm sure it'll be an option like everything for the UI in EQ games. Good God use your brains and stop crying about stupid crap that ruins your immersion. This is directed not at the OP per se but for all those that freak out about little things that the devs didn't incorporate just to piss on their "immersion" because we all know that games should be coded for every single individual's wants.
You know, the bad stuff; all that stuff that completely dominated SOE for a decade.
Intelligent marketing, mostly. SOE was busy with "split and enrage our own player base right about the same time our competition is launching" (insane marketing).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Who the hell made that comment? Run along little troll.
(also, radar makes more sense in a sci fi setting, no?)
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
I was completely joking.
Like I said, your opinions on what bad design are (because of your tastes and preferences), have nothing to do what actual bad or good designs are. You look at things with a mememe perspective. You don't sit back and take an objective designer's perspective on a game. Which is fine for talking about what you like and don't like in a game.
But it has nothing to do with actual game design.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Agreed. A generic map that not only allows you to customize it and choose which locations to mark, but generates the generic land as you explore, would be perfect.
If there is a mini-map, that just kills the exploration factor. You aren't really exploring if you already can see exactly what is over the next hill on your little map in the corner. Actually relying on things like road signs, landmarks, etc. makes for a much better experience I think.
Another possibility I could see is if they had two different types of servers. A "hardcore" (for lack of a better term) server that didn't incorporate the mini-map or other things such as that and a "softcore/regular" server that allowed the use of a mini-map, etc.
If you're going to play the "well that's your opinion dude!" then there's no point in having this discussion. You've ignored every single point I brought up, and refuse to believe there's anything objective. I guess you don't read game scores or movie reviews or listen to anyone who recommends a book?
There are certain things you can look at objectively. Objectively, WoW has self destructive game design, and anti social design for a genre that is supposed to be the most social.
For me it isn't about immersion (well a little) but more so the no thought needed GPS mini-maps that detail every single thing in a 100 mile radius with zero effort.
Doesn't seem like many are against a world/zone map that can be as detailed as we or another can make it, but it's the GPS "I can't look 5 feet in front of my foot to see where a city is" type maps that are the problem.
Sure we can turn it off, but the guy next to me will magically see where every resource node or whatever is located, which is silly and not needed. Now if he took the time to note every single node as he sees them with his eye balls, cool, but things shouldn't just be handed over like they are in most games.
Many of us are looking for a challenge, maybe not as "hard" as EQ once/still is, but not as easy as most MMOs are today.
The reason so many games fail and can't hold on to players is they try to make it as easy as possible, which normally back fires because they are so easy they become boring. We need a challenge. Hopefully EQN will bring it.
I really don't like the world grind. It often seems used to describe what I call "killing monsters to become stronger".
I personally found Vanilla WoW to be a very good game, regardless of how popular it was. It was definitely very immersive, not sure what you mean (although if you are not into WarCraft you may not care as much). It was relatively social because you wanted groups in many situations in Vanilla. I'd constantly make groups just to kill mobs, do certain hard quests, do group quests, or as should be obvious, go to dungeons.
You can argue that it's less social or less immersive compared to another game that I admit I didn't really experience, but standing in its own right, Vanilla WoW was a solid game and I disagree that it was not immersive or social. If what WoW had was the worst aspects of EQ, where are the best aspects of EQ in EQII?
Have you ever played Vanilla WoW? Not modern WoW. Vanilla WoW. It isn't exactly linear. You can do what you want. You can group or you can not group. You can make it as grindy or not as you want. And the quests were pretty interesting, most of them concerned the lore of the area.
It did take time to level, I'd give you that.
Vanilla WoW had many points of bad game design but you are failing to bring any of them up.
I don't like instancing either but it's an either or decision. Both have advantages.
This. I'd prefer to see no maps at all. It really destroys any sense of mystery about the world when I can see exactly where everything is.
They kept EQ's linear gear grind, linear raid grind, endless treadmill of increased levels and useless loot, but took away the good social elements and immersive simulated world. Just because a game is popular doesn't mean its game design is good. WoW suffers, at its core, from most of EQ's flaws because so little was changed. While other MMOs used good design and social features to patch the holes in EQ's design, WoW used instancing, and created a bland arcade world that isn't immersive or social in the slightest.
There's also a difference between "Bad design" and "Design aspects you personally don't like".
In an MMO, a massively multiplayer game, you tend to judge on which features takes advantage to this particular genre.
Grinding meaningless poorly written repetative quests by yourself, or in tiny instances, does NOT make use of the genre. That genre exists, Diablo, OARPGs.
Designing a game where you go down a linear path that constantly has more path built infront of it (thats a slightly different color than the path you already walked over) is a recipe for disaster.
WoW is RIFE with bad game design, whether I enjoy it or not.
no, he is right, that is just your opinion.
there are people that did like the things in mmo's that you say is bad design, its just your opinion, get over yourself.
in fact, wow has proven that there are more people that like that design than people that prefer the social aspect of mmo's
does that make the social aspect a bad design? according to your logic it kind of does.
people have different opinion of what is good and bad, just like i think UC will suffer from bad design and you clearly think it will be a good game.
to each their own.