Originally posted by hockeyplayr I voted yes. I'm not a fan of getting lost.
It is understandable, but you won't get lost.
Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.
I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.
Originally posted by hockeyplayr I voted yes. I'm not a fan of getting lost.
It is understandable, but you won't get lost.
Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.
I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.
You have to realise that not everyone has a photographic memory though. I do, but many don't. That's why they invented GPS and car navigation tools.
I don't want to see a big arrow saying where a NPC is that I have never encountered before, but I think a mini-map just takes the place of what a GPS or map would do in real life. As an adventurer it would be kind of silly to be travelling without a map.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
I want fogged maps for areas you dont know, a mapmaking skill and the abbilitie to buy playermade maps from other players, where mapmaking skill dictates the quallity
and spells that allow certain players to see mobs and or players on the mini map.
i dont want fullfledged minimaps that show all and everything, if you want heightened senses you need to either spec for that or have friends that could cast the right spellon you
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I want fogged maps for areas you dont know, a mapmaking skill and the abbilitie to buy playermade maps from other players, where mapmaking skill dictates the quallity
and spells that allow certain players to see mobs and or players on the mini map.
i dont want fullfledged minimaps that show all and everything, if you want heightened senses you need to either spec for that or have friends that could cast the right spellon you
Now selling maps of the starter zone! slightly unrealistic but totally accurate!
Now selling maps of the starter zone! slightly unrealistic but totally accurate!
Can I get that on hex paper?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)
"I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...
By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.
But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
A map ruins YOUR experience? Just never press M. The minimap compass usually isnt useful unless you minimize it all the way. And even then I think most players hit M to look where they need to go
Just don't hit M. No one is forcing you to. You can read every quest log and such as you want.
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present... someone who doesn't get it at all!
Kid, try thinking a little harder before dropping your pebble of wisdom.
I'd like a return of the sense heading skill, no mini map and no GPS. I'd like maps that you can add markers and points of interest on that you use to navigate, but the GPS thing ruins it for me. You should have to use landmarks to navigate, not a magical arrow on your map screen.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Originally posted by hockeyplayr I voted yes. I'm not a fan of getting lost.
It is understandable, but you won't get lost.
Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.
I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.
You have to realise that not everyone has a photographic memory though. I do, but many don't. That's why they invented GPS and car navigation tools.
I get horribly lost without a GPS, yet I know my way around all of albion in DAoC before they put maps in.
And to the person talking about a "mapless wolrd" having a drawn map you can buy or look up online is fine, but a GPS mini map is stupid.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)
"I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...
By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.
But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.
Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps. Dungeons, as in places you are exploring away from civilisation and probably full of hostile things (where cartographers probably aren't able to go) do not need maps, as it ruins the adventure.
To put it in the context of Everquest... the commonlands and Freeport would be mapped, but the Wailing Caves would not be.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)
"I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...
By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.
But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.
Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps.
Most of it was written as a reply to the topic as a whole; rather than your own erudite verbiage.
Started off agreeing with you, in other words :P
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)
"I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...
By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.
But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.
Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps.
Most of it was written as a reply to the topic as a whole; rather than your own erudite verbiage.
Yes, with the option to simply get rid of it is the best bet it would please everyone. There is no reason to have simply one or the other when you can do this.
I don't really want a mini-map. However, what I do want is a map that starts out completely blank and is filled in while exploring. I think this would really aid in the feel of exploration.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
I want good maps and a good minimap. I see it as a requirement these days. Yeh, we survived without them but I think it's much better with it.
A map like Vanguard's would be good (with better icons).. doesn't have all the detail on it but it's possible to orientate yourself properly with it.
I wouldn't mind if it was done like the old Ultima games as well, as in you buy maps.. like.. players can be cartographers and make maps and sell them but only after they have explored themselves... and if they have missed something (like a cave) it doesn't appear on their created maps. Gives real explorers even more reason for doing it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps. Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command. I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am. Let it display on the compass.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Originally posted by Greez One thing I'd want is a compass, though, I get disoriented really fast if I don't know where North is.
If the game is realistic in regards to the movement of the sun or plant growth two tricks to get your bearings are:
1. If you know what time it is look at the sun, if it is past noon it will be west, if it is before noon it should be east.
2. If you're in a wooded area or area with trees and temperate conditions look at which way the moss is growing on trees, generally the most intense shades of green for moss are on the east pointing side of the tree.
Hope that helps if we don't have a minimap but do have some realism in the EQN world :P.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on?
What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps. Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command. I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am. Let it display on the compass.
How does Voice chat or raids/dungeons kill immersion?
I follow the LFG window and Auction house. Instead of talking with a person face to face in a shop or asking them to join you on an adventure, you're using a UI.
But how does Audio kill immersion?
Does reading someone's /say chat in text kill immersion too? Because people don't open their mouth in real life and spit out text boxes.
And how does requiring a group of people or multiple groups of people kill immersion? Seems pretty realistic to me. Humans have a history of banding together to accomplish what 1 person alone can not.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
They are staples for WoW clones. It would be foolish to clone WoW. A random dungeon system and a global auction house would absolutely destroy any game claiming to be a sandbox, which this game does.
And if you want a map, go and download one or print it out. If you're going to have your map anyway, don't ruin it for the rest of us. I'm fine with a STATIC map, but there shouldn't be any GPS auto trackers and glowing waypoints. That does far more harm to the game than good and destroys immersion more than almost any other feature. People start playing just by looking at their maps instead of the game world. That KILLS the game, unlike a LFG window.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on?
What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps. Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command. I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am. Let it display on the compass.
How does Voice chat or raids/dungeons kill immersion?
I follow the LFG window and Auction house. Instead of talking with a person face to face in a shop or asking them to join you on an adventure, you're using a UI.
But how does Audio kill immersion?
Does reading someone's /say chat in text kill immersion too? Because people don't open their mouth in real life and spit out text boxes.
And how does requiring a group of people or multiple groups of people kill immersion? Seems pretty realistic to me. Humans have a history of banding together to accomplish what 1 person alone can not.
I'm trying to follow you buddy but you lost me.
Most of my comment was meant to be sarcastic, and in response to the person that said maps kill immersion, but since you asked; I'll bite.
While I use voice chat, it does kill immersion to an extent. I mean seriously, you've got a 3 ft halfling female with a voice of a linebacker. How does that NOT kill immersion? I'm not a big roleplayer anymore, but it's difficult for me to imagine that every female character in-game has a booming baratone voice.
As far as dungeons and raids go, I don't mean the dungeons and raids themselves, I mean the click a button and randomly queue up and play with people that you've never met. That kills immersion.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Originally posted by Greez One thing I'd want is a compass, though, I get disoriented really fast if I don't know where North is.
If the game is realistic in regards to the movement of the sun or plant growth two tricks to get your bearings are:
1. If you know what time it is look at the sun, if it is past noon it will be west, if it is before noon it should be east.
2. If you're in a wooded area or area with trees and temperate conditions look at which way the moss is growing on trees, generally the most intense shades of green for moss are on the east pointing side of the tree.
Hope that helps if we don't have a minimap but do have some realism in the EQN world :P.
They could introduce again the Sense Heading skill, used in EQ
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Voice Chat kills immersion
LFG Windows kill immersion
Random Raids and Dungeons kill immersion
Auction House kills immersion
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
They are staples for WoW clones. It would be foolish to clone WoW. A random dungeon system and a global auction house would absolutely destroy any game claiming to be a sandbox, which this game does.
And if you want a map, go and download one or print it out. If you're going to have your map anyway, don't ruin it for the rest of us. I'm fine with a STATIC map, but there shouldn't be any GPS auto trackers and glowing waypoints. That does far more harm to the game than good and destroys immersion more than almost any other feature. People start playing just by looking at their maps instead of the game world. That KILLS the game, unlike a LFG window.
They're not creating dragon concept art because the game is NOT going to have raids. There will be PVE in EQN and you can expect to see PVE encounters and areas that require large groups of people to complete. A sandbox can have PVE content in it and still be a sandbox.
Voice chat is going to be integrated in game, like Planetside 2 (Local Say VOIP and group only VOIP). It will allow you to walk up to people in the world and instantly speaking with them, and them with you, without having to share vent or TS3 info. It'll also help make pick up group game play be much more social. If you don't have a mic, now is a good time to get yourself one.
I wouldn't expect the LFG window to go away any time soon.
Auction house can go either way. It may be player run shops that you have to go to and see wears (i've seen that in some games), but it could also stick with the tried and true auction house UI.
I would prefer players build towns, shops and do face/face trading, but the game could very well have either.
Comments
It is understandable, but you won't get lost.
Once you lose the habit of looking at the minimap every 5 seconds to move around, you'll start appreciating the environment and you will start remembering Point of Interests and eventually the whole zone.
I remember every single place and how to get there in EQ, since WoW introduced the Minimap I can't remember MMO zones too well cause I keep looking at the Minimap rather than the environment that surrounds me.
You have to realise that not everyone has a photographic memory though. I do, but many don't. That's why they invented GPS and car navigation tools.
I don't want to see a big arrow saying where a NPC is that I have never encountered before, but I think a mini-map just takes the place of what a GPS or map would do in real life. As an adventurer it would be kind of silly to be travelling without a map.
In dungeons I think its fine not to include maps, but the overland areas should definitely have them.
I want fogged maps for areas you dont know, a mapmaking skill and the abbilitie to buy playermade maps from other players, where mapmaking skill dictates the quallity
and spells that allow certain players to see mobs and or players on the mini map.
i dont want fullfledged minimaps that show all and everything, if you want heightened senses you need to either spec for that or have friends that could cast the right spellon you
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Now selling maps of the starter zone! slightly unrealistic but totally accurate!
Can I get that on hex paper?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Why would our characters (with access to cities and medieval civilization) have to be even more limited than peasants in the dark ages? That seems ludicrous to me. Given a sizable town; how long would a mapless state persist? (Note: Some, even much, undiscovered territory still remaining is not expressly denied by a common sense approach...think map of Africa ~1850)
"I want to be a cartographer! But one in a world where no other cartographer has (ever) existed!" Because cartographers, you know, typically pool data...
By all means, design the game to not rely on a minimap. Not impossible.
But don't deny civilization. Your character relies on it.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present... someone who doesn't get it at all!
Kid, try thinking a little harder before dropping your pebble of wisdom.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
I get horribly lost without a GPS, yet I know my way around all of albion in DAoC before they put maps in.
And to the person talking about a "mapless wolrd" having a drawn map you can buy or look up online is fine, but a GPS mini map is stupid.
Haha what? You seem to be confused, I said overland (including towns etc) should have maps. Dungeons, as in places you are exploring away from civilisation and probably full of hostile things (where cartographers probably aren't able to go) do not need maps, as it ruins the adventure.
To put it in the context of Everquest... the commonlands and Freeport would be mapped, but the Wailing Caves would not be.
Most of it was written as a reply to the topic as a whole; rather than your own erudite verbiage.
Started off agreeing with you, in other words :P
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Erudite verbiage, I like that
Where do they keep finding people like you who don't understand the issue?
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
I want good maps and a good minimap. I see it as a requirement these days. Yeh, we survived without them but I think it's much better with it.
A map like Vanguard's would be good (with better icons).. doesn't have all the detail on it but it's possible to orientate yourself properly with it.
I wouldn't mind if it was done like the old Ultima games as well, as in you buy maps.. like.. players can be cartographers and make maps and sell them but only after they have explored themselves... and if they have missed something (like a cave) it doesn't appear on their created maps. Gives real explorers even more reason for doing it.
Either it will be in-game SOE made, in-game Player made, or sitting on my tablet/laptop. Regardless, I'll have my map.
Kills immersion?? Sigh.
Shall I go on? There are more than enough other ways to kill your immersion, but these things are MMO "staples" now. It would be foolish for SOE to ignore some of them. (and I use foolish lightly)
What we need is a robust mapping utility so we CAN make our own maps. Also, get rid of sense heading and the /loc command. I don't want to have to mash a button to figure out where I am. Let it display on the compass.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
If the game is realistic in regards to the movement of the sun or plant growth two tricks to get your bearings are:
1. If you know what time it is look at the sun, if it is past noon it will be west, if it is before noon it should be east.
2. If you're in a wooded area or area with trees and temperate conditions look at which way the moss is growing on trees, generally the most intense shades of green for moss are on the east pointing side of the tree.
Hope that helps if we don't have a minimap but do have some realism in the EQN world :P.
How does Voice chat or raids/dungeons kill immersion?
I follow the LFG window and Auction house. Instead of talking with a person face to face in a shop or asking them to join you on an adventure, you're using a UI.
But how does Audio kill immersion?
Does reading someone's /say chat in text kill immersion too? Because people don't open their mouth in real life and spit out text boxes.
And how does requiring a group of people or multiple groups of people kill immersion? Seems pretty realistic to me. Humans have a history of banding together to accomplish what 1 person alone can not.
I'm trying to follow you buddy but you lost me.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
They are staples for WoW clones. It would be foolish to clone WoW. A random dungeon system and a global auction house would absolutely destroy any game claiming to be a sandbox, which this game does.
And if you want a map, go and download one or print it out. If you're going to have your map anyway, don't ruin it for the rest of us. I'm fine with a STATIC map, but there shouldn't be any GPS auto trackers and glowing waypoints. That does far more harm to the game than good and destroys immersion more than almost any other feature. People start playing just by looking at their maps instead of the game world. That KILLS the game, unlike a LFG window.
Most of my comment was meant to be sarcastic, and in response to the person that said maps kill immersion, but since you asked; I'll bite.
While I use voice chat, it does kill immersion to an extent. I mean seriously, you've got a 3 ft halfling female with a voice of a linebacker. How does that NOT kill immersion? I'm not a big roleplayer anymore, but it's difficult for me to imagine that every female character in-game has a booming baratone voice.
As far as dungeons and raids go, I don't mean the dungeons and raids themselves, I mean the click a button and randomly queue up and play with people that you've never met. That kills immersion.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
They could introduce again the Sense Heading skill, used in EQ
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
They're not creating dragon concept art because the game is NOT going to have raids. There will be PVE in EQN and you can expect to see PVE encounters and areas that require large groups of people to complete. A sandbox can have PVE content in it and still be a sandbox.
Voice chat is going to be integrated in game, like Planetside 2 (Local Say VOIP and group only VOIP). It will allow you to walk up to people in the world and instantly speaking with them, and them with you, without having to share vent or TS3 info. It'll also help make pick up group game play be much more social. If you don't have a mic, now is a good time to get yourself one.
I wouldn't expect the LFG window to go away any time soon.
Auction house can go either way. It may be player run shops that you have to go to and see wears (i've seen that in some games), but it could also stick with the tried and true auction house UI.
I would prefer players build towns, shops and do face/face trading, but the game could very well have either.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL